PayPal Will Be Able To Robo-Text/Call Users With No Opt-out Starting July 1 116
OutOnARock notes that as PayPal separates from eBay in the coming months, new terms of service are set to take effect on July 1st. Most of the changes unexciting, but one provision has consumer rights groups up in arms: PayPal is granting itself the ability to use automated systems to call and text users. These robocalls could happen for something as serious as debt collection or as frivolous as advertisements. What's more, the company grants the same rights to its affiliates. Activists are questioning the legality of these changes. "Given that both the Telephone Consumer Protection Act (which created the Do Not Call list) and the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act ban most robocalling and texting, this seemed in direct opposition to consumer protections granted Americans by Congress." PayPal says it will comply with all laws, but their actions may spark a legal debate about whether terms of service can qualify as "written consent."
Yet another on the pile. (Score:5, Insightful)
Of reasons to not use paypal again. On top of them randomly freezing and seizing accounts and continuing to pull money out of your bank accounts for subscriptions you no longer have.
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Of reasons to not use paypal again. On top of them randomly freezing and seizing accounts and continuing to pull money out of your bank accounts for subscriptions you no longer have.
While I do not condone the activities of Paypal here, changing bank accounts is pretty trivial these days to short-circuit this kind of automated bullshit.
Not sure why people think that's an impossible task when millions of consumers are forced to change (hacked) credit cards every 6-12 months...
Re:Yet another on the pile. (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, so if I decide to stop using your payment service or even decide to cancel a third party service which happens to use your service for payments, I only have to change my bank account to get you to stop charging me.
It doesn't have to be difficult in order to make it completely ridiculous.
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Wow, so if I decide to stop using your payment service or even decide to cancel a third party service which happens to use your service for payments, I only have to change my bank account to get you to stop charging me.
It doesn't have to be difficult in order to make it completely ridiculous.
The solution I've proposed is to counter the utter stupidity of the organization causing it.
Identify and change what you can control in this situation to eliminate the issue.
I sure as hell wouldn't hold my breath on Paypal conforming to common sense policies. That much is obvious based on the very existence of this thread and their future plans.
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What one controls in this situation is to whom one shares one's account number. Not sharing financial information with the likes of PayPal is the solution.
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changing bank accounts is pretty trivial these days to short-circuit this kind of automated bullshit.
Changing my bank account to get PayPal to comply with my wishes is silly. Not to mention that a closed account still permits withdrawals for 90 days or more, reopening the account, drawing it negative, incurring banking fees and requiring a rigmarole of banking paperwork to rectify.
This is why I would never give any company I do not trust fully my bank account number. PayPal is not a company I trust fully as they've shown they use obscure internal rules to determine which accounts they freeze and unfreeze
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There is a much simpler way to stop them if you want to and its instant. In any decent bank account with online control there should be a section in the settings for allowed payees, all you have to do is remove PayPal from that list and it stops them from taking money instantly. I did this about four years ago and now only use PayPal through my credit cards - it all works perfectly, is instant and if things go wrong mostly easy to fix...
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While I do not condone the activities of Paypal here, changing bank accounts is pretty trivial these days to short-circuit this kind of automated bullshit.
I long ago gave up on PayPal because I consider them to be hopelessly evil and corrupt. I simply refuse to use PayPal, (and advise everyone who will listen to also not use them); not because I can't successfully evade their attempts at organized theft, but because I choose not to support what amounts to criminal behaviour.
If everyone who knows how bad PayPal is simply stopped using their services, we might not be having this discussion now.
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I could change my bank account, or I could sue Paypal for theft, wire fraud, misrepresentation and a range of other crimes.
Of course, I haven't been stupid enough to give them my bank details in the first place so I'm probably safe. Only probably mind..
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There's reasons why I don't trust Paypal with any bank account numbers. They've tried to talk me into it, but it always seemed like a bad idea to me. I let it have access to one of my credit cards, and that means they can't directly get money from me.
You have given Paypal your phone number? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why?
I had no choice (Score:2)
2) I accepted credit cards with Square, until I got a Windows phone: Square does not offer a Winfone app.
3) Nobody else offered a decent merchant terminal app with fair prices until PayPal Here came to the Windows Store.
Unfortunately, I'm stuck with PayPal for now... whoever calls and/or texts, and whoever advertises on those calls and/or texts, can expect some serious abuse and adverse publicity.
Re: I had no choice (Score:1)
Buy a semi cheap Android phone or tablet and use square. Seriously.
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What do you mean, no choice? Whenever I get one of those popups that says they want my cell phone number "for better security", I click the "no thanks, maybe later" option.
Of course, all that's for nothing if they can dig up phone numbers by any means necessary.
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What do you mean, no choice? Whenever I get one of those popups that says they want my cell phone number "for better security", I click the "no thanks, maybe later" option.
Of course, all that's for nothing if they can dig up phone numbers by any means necessary.
My cell number is also my business phone, so I had to provide it to create a merchant account.
Re:You have given Paypal your phone number? (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:3)
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It appears that they intend to make their money from commercial customers. The service does not work with most cell providers, but it's new, so we'll see.
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Do you use nomorobo? How accurate do you find it to be? Does it cause any hassles?
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Even when I do give a phone number out, its a google voice number, and its set to only ring through for calls from direct family and a couple close friends.. Everyone else gets voicemail without it bothering me. Legitimate callers will leave a legitimate message and I can call them back. scammers and telemarketers just hang up.
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Customer recourse (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Customer recourse (Score:5, Informative)
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Or:
888-225-5322, which is the FCC's consumer complaint line...
Elwood Blues (Score:5, Funny)
They don't have my address. I falsified my renewal. I put down 1060 West Addison.
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Or even better, register for a premium-rate phone number. You get paid each time they call you.
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Do you report the robocalls?
Occassionally.
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Even if you have an existing business relationship, robocalls are still explicitly banned except for a handful of types of communication. Purely informational robocalls are allowed from businesses with whom you have an active relationship (e.g. "This is Star Toyota calling to inform you that the repairs to your vehicle have been completed."), as are debt collection robocalls (which PayPal says they'll start making), as are political and charitable robocalls, but advertisements from businesses you have a rel
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Say you sign up with a company when their T&C says they won't use your phone number for marketing, but then they change their T&C to state the opposite. Now they have your phone number. Are they bound by the T&C they stated when you signed up? But even if they are, what is a customer's recourse?
I imagine the legal route is: they can change the T&C and you have to agree *if you continue to use their service*. If you do not continue to use their service they don't have your agreement to the new T&C and therefore can't act on it.
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Say you sign up with a company when their T&C says they won't use your phone number for marketing, but then they change their T&C to state the opposite. Now they have your phone number. Are they bound by the T&C they stated when you signed up? But even if they are, what is a customer's recourse?
I imagine the legal route is: they can change the T&C and you have to agree *if you continue to use their service*. If you do not continue to use their service they don't have your agreement to the new T&C and therefore can't act on it.
I don't know about Paypal, but many TOS include a clause that the TOS may change at any time, and you agree to be bound by future changes (the "Vader clause"). The purpose of this is presumably to avoid having to keep track of which users have agreed to updated terms: even if simply visiting a site constitutes agreement (which most TOS say does) they'd still have to keep track of who's visited the site when. The danger of such an open-ended contract should be obvious (Lando knows), and as far as I know is
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I can't help but think (and I know this is unpopular here) that this is exactly the sort of thing that needs properly regulating. You can't do anything in the world now without hundreds of pages of TOS and they aren't ever negotiable... you flippantly mention selfies, but *everything* has this problem (internet connection, mobile phone contract, all non-free software, all internet services, trivial or not). It's unreasonable to expect a mass movement of resistance, you have to be able to understand them fir
I guess they'll discover just how unpopular.. (Score:2)
Goodbye PayPal.
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867-5309
Try it in the EU first (Score:5, Interesting)
Go on, I dare you.
Because when the Data Protection people jump on you for having something opt-out rather than opt-in, even with warning, then you'll realise what they do all day (i.e. fine companies that do this).
Just because the US authorities are toothless in this regard, doesn't mean the rest of the world is.
Go on. Send me a text or robocall that I didn't specifically authorise (and, no, agreeing to the new "forced" terms and conditions isn't the same). The absolute worst scenario? I tell you that I'm opting-out of them all. You EVER phone after that, you're going to end up having to answer to data protection lawsuits and - in my country at least - things like the Telephone Preference Service.
I didn't give you explicit permission to do this, therefore you have no permission to do this. We can argue about the definition of "explicit" in court if you like, but the case law is pretty clear in this regard.
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"Opt-out."
How cute...
Didn't you know? There is no "opt-out."
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Established law trumps contract.
You get an opt-out under EU law.
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You're missing my point, which is that PayPal did not include an 'opt-out' mechanism.
Apparently PayPal has decided to say "fuck the law."
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Our contract law makes it very clear that contracts can only be changed when both parties agree.
See, that's why we call them contracts
Re:Try it in the EU first (Score:5, Informative)
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But in this thread, we're only talking about consumer rights in the Third World, aka the United States.
Google Voice (Score:2)
1. Create new gmail account
2. Create Google Voice number and give to PayPal
3.?
4. No profit
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1. Purchase a premium rate (caller-pays) number and build a robo-answer script for it.
2. Make sure you give that phone number to as many spamming companies / call centers as you can.
3. ??? (wait)
3. Profit!
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*click*, *click*, "Block Caller" => "I'm sorry, this number has been disconnected or no longer in service"
PayPal says it will comply with all laws... (Score:1)
Here's the first law change they've bribed for (Score:1)
after they bribe the correct lawmakers to have the laws changed.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2015/05/28/hold-the-phone-fcc-has-a-new-robocall-ruling-and-it-doesnt-look-pretty-for-business/2/ [forbes.com] has a consumer-friendly headline, but the actual text says that the FCC intends to bow to business pressure to let them flout the Do Not Call protections and the no-robo calls rules if they use the "oops, my bad" excuse or the "but I was *really* sure they would want to receive this robocall" excuse.
PayPal is counting on this specific change to FCC interpretations of th
Have at me, boys! (Score:4, Informative)
Because on the few occasions when I've found myself with no choice but to use your crappy guest checkout (no, I will never have a "real" account with you), and you insist that I give a phone number...
I enter yours.
So let 'em fly, boys! Feel free to let your "partners" waste the time of some poor secretary at your corporate HQ.
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So the question is, will they actually try to call themselves.. and if they answer, will it create a black hole?
I'm not too worried, since I'm pretty sure they wont answer.
Wow ... asshole much? (Score:5, Informative)
So the asshole company who acts like a bank except where there are regulations they ignore, is going to be the asshole company who gives itself and its asshole affiliates the right to call or spam you because they say so?
I'm sorry, but what the hell are these clowns thinking?
The sheer arrogance of that is mind boggling. And this whole shit of "see, we have terms of service, we can do anything we want" is just crap.
Tell you what, PayPal, our terms of service say we can tar and feather you before the castration and lynching.
Once again, I am reminded of the many reasons why I would never deal with this company. A bunch of shady, self-entitled weasels.
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So the asshole company who acts like a bank except where there are regulations they ignore, is going to be the asshole company who gives itself and its asshole affiliates the right to call or spam you because they say so?
Bank? No, Paypal is a "technology" company that provides "fundsharing services".
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If I am a customer than I am affiliated, right? Hmm... So I can setup a system here to call any/all employees and the company's customer service lined over and over again...
Something to try... (Score:1)
Sexually harass anyone who phone-spams you. Make it so lurid that it would gross Larry Flynt out.
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I'm sure their computerized robo calling systems will be crushed by the abuse.
Self image (Score:2)
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And what's worse is FAR too many politicians are willing to follow along with them and say "well, as long as you're doing it for profit that's OK".
It really is time to stop pretending that anything corporations do must be good, and start putting real checks and balances on what they can do to us and our information.
But, of course, since they all give massive amounts of money to the politicians, and many of the politicians are also greedy bastards who have huge stakes in large corporations, they're never goi
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If you have a business relationship with the company they are not bound by the no call list. I think the theory was that you could choose not to deal with and so choose whop you wanted calls from.
The question is, do you have a reaql choice not to deal with PP, or do they own enough of the market so you have no real alternative. If it is the later, then PP may be being shortsighted in this. They appear to be begging for consumer protection and/or monopoly scrutiny.
For now, maybe everybody needs an answer machine only phone number for this situation like you already need a deadeter e-mail account.
This is exactly what they mean by "comply with the law". The law is on their side. However, if you tell them that you do not wish them to call you, they are required to stop. The downside is that if you just tell them on the phone, or send them a letter, then "we received no communication indicating he wanted us to stop calling." This is my past experience with debt collectors. I've even had certified letters returned as refused so they could continue harassing me.
In my case, it was not a valid debt: a di
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Get some telephone recording equipment, is isn't *that* expensive, and can come in handy for all kinds of things. Turn it on while speaking with them, tell them that the call is b
A non-issue (Score:2)
Unless PayPal is OK with a class action lawsuit involving millions of customers, they will not be robocalling anyone who opts out. The Do Not Call statutes say that companies with which you have done business in the last 18 months can call you, but they must allow you to opt out of these communications. I think there is a distinction between human and robocalls that might make this even tougher for PayPal to pull off. So this is not worthy of concern.
I'm more concerned about the quality of PayPal's lawye
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Doesn't matter, if they get your actual phone number some other way, they also "grant" themselves the right to use that phone number. Which is where the "this is blatantly against the law" really comes in.
opted out entirely (Score:4, Insightful)
The last time I used paypal I decided was the last time, period. If a transaction requires paypal in the future, I'll pass on the purchase and tell the seller exactly why. They wouldn't let me delete expired credit cards, they wouldn't let me remove a closed bank account, fuck them. I closed my account entirely after putting in bogus contact information since I'm sure they don't actually delete any account data.
This is just one more reason to hate paypal.
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You won't engage in a transaction that MAKES you use PayPal, and I won't engage in a transaction that DOESN'T LET me use PayPal. We cancel each other out. I'm not going to furnish my credit card info to random entities. Just not going to do it.
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Like I said, I changed as much detail as I could and then I did what they said would "close" my account. I have no idea if it's really closed but I haven't received any spam from them since. I don't provide anyone a valid phone number so that's never been a worry for me.
I only ever use paypal where (Score:2)
there is literally no other choice, and even then I "pay as a guest" (deleting cookies to get around their attempt to only let me do so once) and I NEVER give them any bank account numbers or my real phone number. And I use temporary "one time use" credit card number my credit card providers offer, as well as a unique email address each time at a domain that I run my own email service on.
I closed my account (Score:2)
I just closed my Paypal account. I hardly ever used it anyway, so I am sure I can live without it. Surprisingly, they made it pretty easy to close the account.
Paypal doesnt care about laws! (Score:1)
Theyre a bank thats not bank but is a bank.
Thats -almost- as shady as being an actual bank.
written consent not possible (Score:2)
I was under the impression that it is not possible to enter a contract which violates the law. If you give your written consent to allow an illegal action to be performed against you, that contract (or at least that portion of it) is not valid.
License to Kill! (Score:2)
Just because PayPal decides to tell you that they have the right to murder your baby and eat your dog, doesn't mean they can do it without consequence. PayPal does not have the authority to dismiss federal legislation.
In Canada, at least, we still actually have some semblance of a real justice system that is not for sale to the highest bidder. Robo-calling and spamming are quite explicitly opt-in only in Canada, and they MUST provide a means to opt-out.
This will cost them (Score:2)
Learning (Score:2)
Are they taking their customer service lessons from Uber?