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Government The Internet United States

ISPs Worry About FCC's 'Future Conduct' Policing 130

jfruh (300774) writes "In the wake of the FCC passing net neutrality rules, the federal agency now has the authority to keep an eye on ISPs 'future conduct,' to prevent them from even starting to implement traffic-shaping plans that would violate net neutrality. Naturally, this has a lot of ISPs feeling nervous." From the article: The net neutrality rules, beginning on page 106, outline a process for staff to give advisory opinions to broadband providers who want to run a proposed business model past the agency before rolling it out. But those advisory opinions won’t have the weight of an official commission decision. The FCC’s Enforcement Bureau will be able to reconsider, rescind or revoke those advisory opinions, and the commission itself will be able to overrule them, according to the order. “It’s unclear what you’re supposed to do when you have a new innovation or a new service,” the telecom lobbyist said. “There’s just a lot of ambiguity.” Even the Electronic Frontier Foundation, one of the most vocal proponents of strong net neutrality rules, urged the commission to jettison its future conduct standard.
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ISPs Worry About FCC's 'Future Conduct' Policing

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:19PM (#49306129)

    If they aren't doing anything wrong, then they have nothing to worry about.

    Only ISPs with something to hide should be worried.

    • by Sarten-X ( 1102295 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @11:14PM (#49306815) Homepage

      Well, yes...

      The problem is that we don't know what the problems will be. Today, Network neutrality is the hot-button issue the FCC is finally forced to deal with, but tomorrow, who knows? Maybe we'll have to have regulations on compliance (or not) with encryption-busting wiretaps, DNS hijacking, advertisement injection, or something completely different.It's taken long enough for the FCC to move on this that we've already had a few cases of effective extortion by an ISP, and maybe those issues will be even more problematic.

      The solution, then, is to bring the FCC in as an advocate for the American citizen, since that's pretty much the government's primary job. This establishes a process where the FCC can say "You're not breaking rules now, but you're getting really close" and give the ISPs a chance to avoid sinking investment capital into systems that will be outlawed as soon as people notice. Cooperating with regulators, especially by asking permission rather than forgiveness, is also a great way to reduce future penalties if the FCC's policies do turn against them.

      If the ISPs' new business models don't piss off the FCC, then they don't have to worry about new regulation in the short term. Only ISPs with predatory business models to hide should be worried.

      Not quite the same ring to it...

      • The solution, then, is to bring the FCC in as an advocate for the American citizen...

        The FCC is governed by congress and the president. So, how will that work if nobody votes in people that will make it happen?

        • by Anonymous Coward

          Uhh people will get what they deserve.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        Well we know already that the ISPs are inimical to the US citizen and are incapable of doing the right thing without the force of government making them do it, and we don't yet know if the FCC will do as you claim, or be any worse than the ISPs.

        So rather than sticking with the abusive relationship of the ISPs, we're leaving them and trying someone who may not be as big a prick. We may not know how we'll be with them, but we know how badly off we were with the ISPs, and the only other option is to do without

    • by gl4ss ( 559668 )

      well, what future business plans could they have?

      it's a pretty simple business, sell the pipe. they want to divert the pipe to different site? fcc should say no. they want to make some site or other slower than another, on purpose? no.

      • by anegg ( 1390659 )

        Agreed. The folks who sell the pipe should co-mingle their transport business with their "content services business."

        But we also need some attention to other kinds of interference with the pipe. In the physical world, "tapping" a physical circuit is a known no-no. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but it either happens according to "the rules" or else it becomes a sticky wicket when it is uncovered. Interfering with a logical circuit should also be explicitly recognized as a known no-no. In ot

    • by camg188 ( 932324 )
      People running large organizations generally try to increase their business by increasing their customer base. This rewards them by increasing their income and influence. It's the human nature of personality types that gravitate to running large organizations.
      Now what if the large organization is a government entity? How do they expand their "business"? How do the people running them increase their income and influence? They do it by increasing the output of their "product". Unfortunately for citizens, t
    • Yeah, except that the FCC rules passed wouldn't have applied to a single case so far.

      They vaguely itemize some "threats" that could possibly happen sometime in the near future, and they talk about them as if the existing court system couldn't handle these issues.

      But it would have stopped Netflix/Cogent/Comcast, right? Wellll... no. That was caused by a badly negotiated peering agreement, not any action on the ISP's part. And yet the FCC rules: "We do not believe that it is appropriate or necessary to subjec

  • Underlying problem (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JBMcB ( 73720 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:20PM (#49306139)

    And here is the underlying problem with a good chunk of FCC regulation.

    Basically, you can do anything you want until they decide it is against an arbitrary regulation. Then they can not only stop you from doing it, but fine you for having done it.

    Think of the "decency" statues for broadcast TV. Sometimes you can swear (playing Saving Private Ryan) sometimes you can't (some random award show) Sometimes you can show nudity (NYPD Blue) sometimes you can't (Superbowl?) The FCC will let you know you violated the unspecified rules via a fine
    well after the fact.

    This is the regulatory regime being imposed on the business practices of ISPs.

    I don't like the big ISPs screwing around with the internet just as most anyone else, but this type of regulation is bonkers.

    • by Jane Q. Public ( 1010737 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:53PM (#49306287)

      This is the regulatory regime being imposed on the business practices of ISPs.

      It is pretty much the SAME "regulatory regime" that was imposed on landline telephones before the cell phone revolution was granted exceptions. Did you have a big problem with landline telephone regulation, too? Your communications were carried reliably, not interfered with in any way, and you had privacy.

      The intent of the regulation is clearly stated: to ensure (a) neutrality of communications media and (b) privacy.

      Clearly the FCC could enforce the rules arbitrarily. But it always could. So what? None of this is new.

    • by Dutch Gun ( 899105 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @09:17PM (#49306395)

      Enforcing FCC regulations is not quite as arbitrary as you make it sound. My understanding is that the FCC has clearly stated in writing exactly how they intend to apply the Title II rules to ISPs. In order to change their enforcement, a vote is required by the FCC commissioners on new policies. I don't believe they can just change their enforcement policies on a whim.

      To be honest, I wasn't entirely happy with the internet becoming government regulated either, but let's face it: the ISPs had free reign for quite some time, and they eventually couldn't seem to help themselves in pooping all over their customers, because (surprise) we have no real competition in the industry. I would have been much happier if we enacted legislation to ensure proper competition, but for whatever reason, that seemed like a dead end.

      I guess at this point we have no choice but to wait and see how it plays out.

    • And here is the underlying problem with a good chunk of FCC regulation.
      Basically, you can do anything you want until they decide it is against an arbitrary regulation. Then they can not only stop you from doing it, but fine you for having done it.

      i call bullshit.

      Think of the "decency" statues for broadcast TV. Sometimes you can swear (playing Saving Private Ryan) sometimes you can't (some random award show) Sometimes you can show nudity (NYPD Blue) sometimes you can't (Superbowl?) The FCC will let you know you violated the unspecified rules via a fine
      well after the fact.

      guess what, they have very detailed rules on decency and guess what, it actually makes sense. what is required to be censored is based on context! what context? well, the rating of the show, time it's broadcast and if it's a public broadcast or not and some other things that are well documented. fun fact, if you don't know if what you are going to show will violate the rules, you can ask them!

      This is the regulatory regime being imposed on the business practices of ISPs.

      the rules they have put forth are exceptionally simple. all they have to do is not limit the sp

    • by SeaFox ( 739806 )

      And here is the underlying problem with a good chunk of FCC regulation.

      Basically, you can do anything you want until they decide it is against an arbitrary regulation. Then they can not only stop you from doing it, but fine you for having done it.

      Think of the "decency" statues for broadcast TV. Sometimes you can swear (playing Saving Private Ryan) sometimes you can't (some random award show) Sometimes you can show nudity (NYPD Blue) sometimes you can't (Superbowl?) The FCC will let you know you violated the unspecified rules via a fine

      It's worth noting NYPD Blue was a drama show that aired late at night (usually before the 11 o'clock news iirc), and carried a TV-MA rating (so could be blocked with the V-Chip system). The Super Bowl is a yearly sports extravaganza that starts in the afternoon and expects to attract viewers of a variety of ages. Rating a major live sporting event, ahead of it's own broadcast, taking into account potential swearing by players or "wardrobe malfunctions" isn't really practical. They can only offer it for air

    • I suspect that you are confusing regulation of "content" vs regulation of "access". I know that it's part of Conservative PC to assume that any regs would be about content, but that is clearly not the case here.
    • The hell? You're acting like decency standards in television broadcasting are totally random. There are greater restrictions for broadcast network television (the Big Four, among others), looser restrictions for cable (since you elect to get it), and a "safe harbor" from 10 PM to 6 AM where those restrictions are relaxed (like the brief nudity in NYPD Blue).

      It's not like they randomly retroactively fine people.
    • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      Think of the "decency" statues for broadcast TV. Sometimes you can swear (playing Saving Private Ryan) sometimes you can't (some random award show) Sometimes you can show nudity (NYPD Blue) sometimes you can't (Superbowl?) The FCC will let you know you violated the unspecified rules via a fine
      well after the fact.

      The reason for this is simple - the FCC for this operates on a complaint basis. Now some rather conservative parents got their panties in a knot over "wardrobe malfunction" (no doubt helped by massi

  • Fuck ISPs (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:36PM (#49306221)
    The ISPs brought this on themselves by fucking with traffic, they deserve no sympathy and they should be thankful the government doesn't break them, nationalize them or shut them down entirely.
    • Of note, this didn't happen. No traffic shaping ever undertaken by the ISPs is illegal under the Title II regulation.

      In fact, there was a bill in Congress that just implemented Net Neutrality (but not the rest of Title II), but Congressional Democrats wouldn't support the bill because they would rather enact Title II and bring the Internet under the thumb of their party.

  • This is the government we're talking about. Why worry. What could possibly go wrong?

    It's not as if this government would ever spy on the entire populace, nor execute citizens via drone without due process.

    The millions of pages of rules the government writes are for our own good.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      These are corporations we're talking about. Why worry? What could possibly go wrong?

      It's not as if any corporations have ever spied on the populace, or used force against citizens without due process?

      Truly, corporations exist solely to serve us, they never exploit anything at all.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Call me crazy, but I'd much rather trust corporations than government. Corporations have to answer to shareholders, and to a lesser extent, their customers

          If there were real competition in residential Internet service, those corporations would have to answer to their customers. With the local duopolies, they only have to answer to their shareholders.

          So, yes, you are crazy.

          • Call me crazy, but I'd much rather trust corporations than government. Corporations have to answer to shareholders, and to a lesser extent, their customers

            If there were real competition in residential Internet service, those corporations would have to answer to their customers. With the local duopolies, they only have to answer to their shareholders.

            So, yes, you are crazy.

            And guess who created and who maintains those monopolies with their own monopoly on the use of deadly force and/or imprisonment?

            Better have that sanity-checker of yours recalibrated.

            Strat

        • by DogDude ( 805747 )
          Corporations have to answer to shareholders, and to a lesser extent, their customers.

          Yeah, all the shareholders want is more profit. That's worked out really well for the Net in the US.
      • Bad Corporations: go to a different corporation
        Bad Government: rot in the same cell

    • In the current environemtn of governments denying their spying activities, do you really think they'd be this bald-faced about enacting new powers for themselves? If the government really wanted to take control of the internet, they'd just fucking do it, FCC and procedure be damned. As far as I can tell the FCC is doing the right thing in spite of the fact that the tendency of modern governmental institutions is to seek more and more control over everything.

      If the new rules were meant to be a governmental

  • I worry about (Score:3, Insightful)

    by afaiktoit ( 831835 ) on Friday March 20, 2015 @08:58PM (#49306309)
    my ISP changing the rules willy nilly too. I now have a data cap I didnt when I signed up.
    • As do I. I work remote and regularly pull multi-gigabyte files across my VPN connection, multiple times per day. I would obliterate a data cap in only a few days (if not less) effectively forcing me and many of my colleagues to return to commuting to work daily, and potentially costing many of them their jobs. (some are many states away from one of our offices). So much for going green.....
  • by Anonymous Coward

    If there is no public outcry then what the ISP's are doing is ok and the FCC will not get involved.

    Do shit that pisses everbody off and I hope the FCC hands them their ass.

  • “It’s unclear what you’re supposed to do when you have a new innovation or a new service,” the telecom lobbyist said.

    Mr. Lobbyist, there will be plenty of time to deal with far-fetched hypothetical situations later. We can cross that bridge if we ever get there.

    • Yea, it's kinda scary. Like a police office watching you doing something and you ask is this legal, and he says why don't you have a go at it and I'll decided afterwards if I should arrest you.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    If you ISPs had been customer-friendly and not huge arrogant dicks, then the FCC wouldn't need to police you.

    You may be "worried" about the FCC's policies being an unwarranted and terrible burden on you, but you've proven yourselves already to be as bad to your customers as you think the FCC may be to you, so you definitely cannot be trusted, and the FCC haven't been shown to be worse than you.

    Don't like it?

    You should have been better people when left to police yourselves.

    It's your own fault that you're "wo

    • If you ISPs had been customer-friendly and not huge arrogant dicks, then the FCC wouldn't need to police you.

      It's not the FCC's job to police customer service.

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