Blackberry CEO: Net Neutrality Means Mandating Cross-Platform Apps 307
DW100 writes In a bizarre public blog post the CEO of BlackBerry, John Chen, has claimed that net neutrality laws should include forcing app developers to make their services available on all operating systems. Chen even goes as far as citing Apple's iMessage tool as a service that should be made available for BlackBerry, because at present the lack of an iMessage BlackBerry app is holding the firm back.
Some excerpts from Chen's plea: Netflix, which has forcefully advocated carrier neutrality, has discriminated against BlackBerry customers by refusing to make its streaming movie service available to them. Many other applications providers similarly offer service only to iPhone and Android users. ... Neutrality must be mandated at the application and content layer if we truly want a free, open and non-discriminatory internet. All wireless broadband customers must have the ability to access any lawful applications and content they choose, and applications/content providers must be prohibited from discriminating based on the customer’s mobile operating system. Since "content providers" are writing code they think makes sense for one reason or another (expected returns financial or psychic), a mandate to write more code seems like a good way to re-learn why contract law frowns on specific performance.
Bye_bye, Blackberry (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Bye_bye, Blackberry (Score:5, Funny)
The lack of Minesweeper for Mac was what always kept me on Windows all these years. ;-)
Re:Bye_bye, Blackberry (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Bye_bye, Blackberry (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Bye_bye, Blackberry (Score:4, Interesting)
No one wants to switch from a Mac/Windows to a Windows/Mac system if their files or programs are not 100% guaranteed to work.
When my vintage Black MacBook (2006) died last year after eight years of faithful service, I exported my data into neutral file formats (i.e., cvs and xml), switched over to my Windows gaming machine, and imported my data into corresponding programs. Minimal downtime. Meanwhile, I'm saving up for a new Mac system.
Do all apps have lossless neutral file formats? (Score:3)
When my vintage Black MacBook (2006) died last year after eight years of faithful service, I exported my data into neutral file formats
Not all programs can export without substantial loss of data. For example, can Garage Band export a multitrack project in a neutral file format that a multitrack audio editor for a non-Apple operating system will recognize? Can Photoshop export a file with all layers and all adjustment layers that Krita or GIMP can open?
Re:Bye_bye, Blackberry (Score:4, Informative)
Assuming you weren't kidding.... The original MacBook (not the MacBook Pro, which has always been silver) and several follow on models were available in both white and black. See the Wikipedia picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... [wikipedia.org]
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Why don't you educat yourself?
http://www.imore.com/will-apple-ever-bring-back-black-macbook/ [imore.com]
When Apple first introduced the MacBook, you could get it in white or black. The black version, of course, cost an extra $200 for the coolness factor. Considering that my MacBook lasted for eight years, it was a worthwhile investment.
When my Black MacBook stopped working, I took it into the Apple Store. Most the Apple employees heard about the Black MacBook (discontinued in 2008) but never saw one in person. They took turns looking at it. Surprisingly, despite being a six-year-old laptop at the time, the Apple Store replaced the keyboard top and battery with identical replacement parts.
Did you stick an Apple logo on a Thinkpad? :-D
You must work at Google. :P
That is great service support indeed. And I can see why you wouldn't let go of this model.
P.S. I wasn't aware of black macbooks (but I have never owned a mac) - and saw an opportunity to sneak in some stinkpad love.
On a side note, check out the new XPS 13. Those near zero bezels look mighty nice.
http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-1... [dell.com]
Like the Sharp Aquos phone that is near bezel-less.
http://www.sharpusa.com/ForHom... [sharpusa.com]
(Sorry for the OT - got carried away a bit)
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Re:Bye_bye, Blackberry (Score:5, Insightful)
It is even worse than that in terms of this post. Their messaging service for many years was far and away the leader. It was so good in fact that the carriers were offering to give them institutional support by making BBM into SMS 2.0 providing they would go cross platform (i.e. a percentage of all SMS fees for many years). RIM/ BlackBerry turned them down.
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That's part of what I can here to say/read.
They're citing lack of a blackberry version of iMessage as an example, and yet where are the iPhone, Android, Symbian, etc versions of BBM!?!?!
Regardless, their argument is retarded.
"...if we truly want a free, open and non-discriminatory internet", then we actually have to allow any and all apps to use it in any way they want, rather than forcing them to make their thing available everywhere (and how far does "everywhere" even go!?!? My PC? Mac, Windows, Linux, BS
Re:Bye_bye, Blackberry (Score:4, Informative)
Just to nitpick... BBM for Android and iPhone do exist.
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200+ replies and nobody seems to understand net neutrality well enough to pin down why his argument is wrong, besides some nebulous arm-waving about it being impractical. What he's saying is actually not that illogical. If the government is going to mandate that network traffic must not be discriminated against based on source, why not mandate that app development not discriminate based on platform?
Where the argument falls apart is in market interference. The IS
Please develop for my dying platform! (Score:5, Insightful)
Really?
Net Neutrality means mandating that developers and services must create something that works on your dying platform? Does that mean that NetFlix will have to make sure it works with Symbian too? How about PocketPC 2003?
What an idiot.
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He is not an idiot, he is a politician trying to twist the meaning of the word "Net" and make it mean "Application".
Re:Please develop for my dying platform! (Score:4, Insightful)
He is not an idiot, he is a politician trying to twist the meaning of the word "Net" and make it mean "Application".
That makes him an idiot.
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He is not an idiot, he is a politician trying to twist the meaning of the word "Net" and make it mean "Application".
That makes him an idiot.
No, it makes him another participant in rent-seeking, which is what net neutrality is about, at its core..
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I'm not worried about paying double for Netflix. I'm more worried that 10, 20 or even 30 years from now Netflix or some company which bought Netflix will still be doing the same thing they are today with no real innovation because nobody else was ever able to afford the "fast lane" fees to enter the market and challenge them.
I don't think Netflix's price could double due to carriers charging them. The market probably wouldn't support it. If carriers wanted to drive Netflix out of business they might. I
Re:Please develop for my dying platform! (Score:4, Funny)
That makes him an idiot.
That is the pejoritive term for CEO.
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Or is it the other way around...
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Let's take an example: Developer D develops app A that only works on ios. Since there's not much market share for blackberry, he decides not to port it other platforms since his profit increase will be negligible.
Both Blackberry OS and iOS provide the same basic functionality to developers. However, the API exposed by them is very different, so a developer must make significant changes to his app to port it another platform.
Famous and useful apps like A, B, C, D are the reason people
Re:Please develop for my dying platform! (Score:5, Insightful)
Why are you for net neutrality and against app neutrality (or whatever it's called)? This CEO should be applauded for bringing up this issue.
Because they are fundamentally different than each other. Net neutrality requires inaction on the part of the ISPs, i.e. "do not favor one service over another". This so-called "app neutrality" requires that anyone developing an application is obligated to provide it for all platforms, independent of whether it is in their best interests to do so, and independent of whether the developer has the resources to meet that obligation.
It is only by ignoring this fundamental difference that you can even attempt to equate net neutrality and "app neutrality". It is, however, intellectually dishonest to do so.
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No, he's a CEO of a failing company who is acting like a whiny moron who thinks the rest of the world should be responsible for keeping his company in business.
It amounts to "hey, we made our crap software that nobody wants available for your platform, so now you have to support our platform".
He's an idiot.
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He thinks his company's shareholders idiots. Like most CEOs.
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> Net Neutrality means mandating that developers and services must create something that works on your dying platform
Correct. Prepare for the iPhone Settings app on BB. Because not having that would be "unfair".
Re:Please develop for my dying platform! (Score:5, Insightful)
What is a platform?
Is HTML/JS/CSS a platform? Does an application's availability via HTTP/HTML constitute bringing the service to every platform?
What if Blackberry refuses to provide a compatible HTML browser? Is it they who are in breach, or should developers still have to provide an app for their alternative native platform?
Suppose I port the application, but leave out some feature. Does that count? What if the feature I leave out is something like the "Investor Relations" link at the bottom? What if the feature I leave out is video? What constitutes an acceptably feature-complete version of Netflix?
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By supporting HTML5 video, it's completely up to the device maker to allow people to use Netflix on the device, even if there isn't an official app from Netflix. In the same way, I think that it would be nice if Apple had an open API for accessing iMessage, so that other apps cou
Re:Please develop for my dying platform! (Score:4, Interesting)
In defense of Netflix, they support playing videos over HTML5 (with DRM extenstions of course). So if Blackberry would update their browser to support HTML5 with DRM, then blackberry users could watch Netflix on their devices.
You talk like Firefox could implement it, which they can't. They need keys, those keys need to stay secret and the content needs to stay protected until you can hand it over to the OS/graphics driver and probably all sorts of other nasty liabilities and penalties if you don't. The music industry had to abandon DRM, but the movie industry is still going full steam with HDCP 2.2 for 4K and when they finally make 4K BluRay [blu-ray.com] this year it'll be choking full of AACS 2.0, BD+ 2.0, Cinavia 2.0 and whatever else they can throw at it.
I think they know this is their really last chance, BluRay looks pretty damn good (1080p, uncompressed sound) and 4K BluRay adds all the last bells and whistles like resolution on par with DCI 4K, high frame rate, 10 bit color, extremely wide color space Rec.2020, bigger dynamic range ,>HDTV 3D even if you only get half per eye, HEVC encoding... if you can rip one of those discs the source is likely to be better than anything you can play it with, so far there's not even a reference monitor at any price that can deliver 100% Rec.2020 coverage.
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Oh. I completely agree. There's no reason to have DRM on Netflix now that the DRM has been broken on BluRay.
netflix HAS to include DRM. it's contractually bound to do so in it's content licenses.
the point of DRM is not to make it absolutely impossible to copy. the point is to make it non-obvious for the average user (something more than File->Save as ...). DRM will always be broken and everyone with 1/2 a brain knows this.
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Actually, the point of DRM is to be the equivalent of a tiger-repelling rock. It makes people who don't know what they're doing more comfortable with releasing digital content.
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i think it's naive to assume that the people developing and deploying DRM actually think it can't be broken. they probably know a hell of a lot more about the various technologies than we do.
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yeah especially funny coming from someone who is in charge of a company that had a product that was only available on their own platform and only on carriers who had contracts with them...
is there Line for bb(X??) ?
(line is really, really popular in some asian countries, it's basically like whatsapp)
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Well, I mean, he never said that. (I know the article said he said that, but if you want to read what he wrote... It says that application and content delivery being platform neutral is an important principle to maintain a competitive ecosystem, and then echos a lot of the arguments for net neutrality.
And to some degree, he's right. Why does Windows Phone have such an uphill battle? No ap
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Sure, and ponies and unicorns are awesome, and so is staying up late on a school night, and never having to eat your vegetables ... but this has nothing at all to do with reality.
The notion that BBs competitors should prop up the dying BB platform in some notional sense of fairness is stupid.
As is the notion that if I, or an
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You aren't guaranteed an app ecosystem just because you release a product running RANDOM_OS. If I were to release a line of laptop computers that didn't run Windows or Linux, but ran some in-house developed, incompatible-with-everything-else operating system, I can't demand that Adobe release a version of Photoshop and Microsoft release a version of Office for my platform. I shouldn't run to every software vendor (open source or closed source) and order them to compile and support a version of their produ
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He's not an idiot and it is pretty consistent with everyone's talk of rights as we normally do in out political discussions.
He is choosing to view net-neutrality as a positive right. You know, like how people view education and healthcare and housing. These things require other people to actively do things for you (time, resources, money).
The other net-neutrality is just a negative right, preventing the ISP from blocking, discriminating between content...Like freedom of speech, freedom of contract...
It's an
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Net neutrality is a band aid on a bullet wound that is monopolies.
Net neutrality would not be necessary if government already addressed the problem of monopolies that have already been declared illegal and contrary to the public interest for over 100 years now.
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Net Neutrality - it's not about the applications, it's about the interfaces and channels. No application shall get a worse service than another.
The Net Neutrality is about the roads and junctions we use, not the fuel we fill in the cars. With the Blackberry opinion it would mean that every car on the road would have to be able to accept any fuel provided.
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At this point, Blackberry is an actor who was told his character has to die, but who is overacting and prolonging his death scene to get more spotlight on him in the vain hope that the director will declare "Why that guy's got serious acting talent! I've changed my mind! His character lives!" Meanwhile, the director is groaning and wondering where those stage hands with the oversized hook are.
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And not just mobile platforms but desktop OSs and browsers also. I demand that Netflix be able to stream videos to my Lynx browser running in DOS!
Cross Platform Compatibility (Score:2)
Open protocols (Score:5, Insightful)
The solution is not that Apple should take iMessage to every platform out there, but that we start using open protocols instead like XMPP.
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yep. At least Google tried (Score:3)
Yes, like Hangouts too. At least Google tried. They used xmpp for Google Talk and tried to get other companies to follow suit, but none of the major players did, so there was no interoperability.
XMPP isn't the best, worse than competitors (Score:4, Informative)
They didn't spend xx million dollars developing a new protocol and software for both server-side and client-side to replace their already existing Talk because Talk was working great already. They made that investment in order to have a better service.
> how is being the only one using XMPP worse
The key words there are "being the only one". You don't get interoperability by being the only one using the "standard". Instead, they were the only major player hurt by the limitations of XMPP. For example, XMPP is designed around a reasonably consistent network connection and fairly stable IP, while mobile phone IPs might change several times in five minutes. Synchronization of audio and video isn't great, etc.
XMPP would have had the advantage of interoperability IF other major providers used it. Since the other major providers did not use XMPP, there was no interoperability advantage and therefore no convincing reason to stay with it, other than the money and time it would take to develop something new and switch.
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BAM!
Open protocols (Score:2)
The solution is not that Apple should take iMessage to every platform out there, but that we start using open protocols instead like XMPP.
I totally agree, but that's something blackberry would have to start with inside the house
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This is a great idea and wonderful in it's simplicity. I actually assumed that this was the BB CEO's proposal, and that the summary and the article was just misunderstanding.
But no, he really is saying that we should continue to have closed protocols, just that their sponsors should be forced by the government to put them on Blackberries. Interestingly, he only mentions that they should be forced to run on iPhones, Android, and Blackberry, and doesn't mention Windows phones - "iMessage for me and not for
Re:Open protocols (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, I don't think his particular argument quite works. I don't think this is about "net neutrality" as I've heard the idea be defined. I don't think Apple should be forced to develop apps for other platforms.
However, I do think that communication protocols, file formats, and related standards should be open and free (both gratis and libre). That is, should be as in "ought to be". I'm not necessarily opposed to legal requirements for making these things free, but I think it would have to be carefully crafted to make sure it didn't include loopholes or unintended consequences. In doing so, you'd probably need to limit the requirements to certain kinds of things.
In abstract, if there were a law that said, in effect, "Built-in messaging applications on mobile phones must use protocols that are available to developers, royalty free, such that a 3rd party developer can create a client on another platform capable of communicating with those messaging applications with the same capabilities as the native client," I think I would probably support something like that. On the other hand, it would be silly to make a law that says, "All application developers and service providers must support all platforms."
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Hmm... (Score:5, Funny)
I would comment about that but, to abide by his thinking, I would have to respond in every language on the planet so that I don't discriminate against non-english speakers...
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I'm going to get in trouble for only commenting on one post rather than commenting on all of them.
Free and Open (Score:5, Insightful)
Blackberry's operating system is proprietary and closed. Why would they be demanding support for their platform and throwing words like 'free' and 'open' around? Ridiculous.
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Re:Free and Open (Score:4, Insightful)
This is a pretty unqualified statement. QNX is a rock solid embedded OS and is already everywhere. Buying QNX is why blackberry is still alive today to spout such garbage.
Yeah (Score:2)
Yeah, and don't forget Palm! (Score:4, Insightful)
Absolutely. Companies should be forced to write their software for any single person that might want it on their hardware. Not only Blackberry, but also Nokia, and since I have an original Palm device, Apple should be forced to write all their apps for me too. And support them. And make sure they are bug free. They must expend the resources to build teams for this, and of course, it should be free to me. Oh, and I also have a a Radio Shack pocket computer from the '80s, and so everyone should have to write apps for that too. Otherwise, I am being oppressed.
Pot, meet kettle (Score:5, Funny)
From BlackBerry's BBM page [bbm.com]:
BBM Video is currently only available for BlackBerry 10 smartphones. Version 1 of BBM for Windows Phone does not support BBM Voice, BBM Channels, Stickers, or location sharing powered by Glympse.
Sure (Score:3)
“Unlike BlackBerry, which allows iPhone users to download and use our BBM service, Apple does not allow BlackBerry or Android users to download Apple’s iMessage messaging service,” he wrote.
Sure it does now. Had BBM been on other devices 5+ years ago, I don't think Blackberry would be in the shape it is now. Around that time BBM was all the rage, unfortunately it was Blackberry only. Now no one uses BBM....
Maybe they're reading from Blackberry's playbook.. (Score:4)
Chen even goes as far as citing Apple's iMessage tool as a service that should be made available for BlackBerry, because at present the lack of an iMessage BlackBerry app is holding the firm back.
I say that because I remember time when Blackberry's BBM was a "Blackberry only" affair. Can someone please remind this CEO about those early BBM days?
How about other Blackberry services that are only available on Blackberry now?
Or should other companies' strategies include making rival companies relevant?
Blackberry can switch (Score:3)
Android is free, Blackberry is free to switch over to it. But they chose not to do so.
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Before iPad, we called them PDAs and Pen Computers. It hasn't been so much a revolution in design as an evolution.
Action vs. inaction (Score:5, Insightful)
This just seems bizarre.
Net neutrality is about forcing inaction: an ISP is already providing service to a customer, but is not allowed to actively discriminate by not providing the same level of service under various conditions.
What Chen seems to be proposing here is a requirement for action on the part of every app developer in the world, requiring them by law to spend their resources producing additional software regardless of any desire or commercial viability.
I think we can safely predict how this one ends. It's amazing his PR people didn't stop him before it started, though, because IMHO it just reinforces the perception that BlackBerry is desperate and struggling to stay in business by any means it can find.
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Net Neutrality isn't just inaction anymore. The term has now been expanded to include things like, if the Netflix-Comcast interchange is getting saturated, Comcast has a positive duty build out more capacity to handle the full flow.
The Blackberry guy is now expanding it again. People who work in development and realize what this would mean for small developers are rightly horrified, but the thing is, that's how government regulation works. If net neutrality becomes law, it will end up getting used to cov
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I agree with you about the difficulties of scope creep when the scope is determined by people who aren't technical experts.
I'm genuinely surprised about the Netflix-Comcast situation you described. That doesn't sound like my idea of net neutrality at all. Is that actually what some law in the US (or elsewhere) now requires, or is it just what Netflix would like a future law to require for obvious reasons?
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Its what the Slashdot group think wants to happen - which we all know is fair and balanced...
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The problem is that whenever saturation issues come up (e.g. http://yro-beta.slashdot.org/s... [slashdot.org] ), you get tons of people saying net neutrality does include that sort of obligation.
Discrimination (Score:3)
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When will Blackberry stops discriminating against non-Blackberry users by releasing their mobile OS to other manufacturers?
There's no indication that manufacturers using Android want it, and Apple certainly doesn't. Any manufacturer (eg: Ford) who wants it just has to wait until Blackberry starts circling the bowl in earnest and just buying the whole business.
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What ... an ... idiot ... (Score:2)
So, the biggest challenge facing Blackberry is that their competitors won't port their products to the BlackBerry platform?
This is idiocy beyond belief.
This has nothing to do with "openness and neutrality", and has everything to do with the fact that your platform is dying, and you're now expecting everyone else to
How about 200 "fart apps"? (Score:2, Interesting)
Does that include fart apps? Or should developers just be required to port the "super" ones?
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/09/29/1842252/rim-doesnt-want-200-fart-apps
Rot in hell you has-beens :) You had your chance and you fucked up. This is what you get for inflicting the shit-pile that was BES on admins, then having the gall to charge out the ass for it on top of premium phone plans.
Not going to lie. When got rid of the of the last BB phone we officespaced the /fuck/ out of that remaining BES server.
Sounds like their issue, not mine. (Score:3)
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They've already done that.
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That's daft (Score:2)
Net Neutrality means
Perhaps fortunately it doesn't mean any of these things
What the hell is he on?? (Score:2)
Pity him (Score:2)
Completely illogical argument (Score:2)
When did Bennett Haselton (Score:5, Funny)
become the CEO of Blackberry?
I don't think it means what he thinks it means... (Score:3)
Imagine if his same logic is applied to software. Should Outlook be ported for both Apple, Linux, and any other OS out there simply because it's fair?
Here's a tip, if developers aren't adopting your platform it may be due to something besides neutrality. Could your business model suck? Could they perceive your platform as not having as large a user base?
Instead of crying that things should be made even look at your business model and business strategy.
Here's a novel thought, contact those developers on other platforms and ask them what your company could do to encourage them and possibly other developers to also develop on your platform.
If you ask me the "Crackberry" fad has entered winter.
What do we use a phone for? (Score:3, Interesting)
I would argue that there should be some sort of regulation that ensures that phones are interoperable with one another for "phone stuff". That is, if you sell a phone in this country, by law it should be able to make a phone call to every other phone sold in the country. The problem is, what qualifies as "phone stuff" is rapidly expanding.
iMessage is a good example. Apple is trying to leverage its dominant market position to make text messaging something that's iPhone only. Remember the whole debacle with people who had an iPhone and then didn't suddenly not being able to receive text messages from other people who still had iPhones. Apple's solution was broken and only partially effective - and I think at least somewhat intentionally so. Same with FaceTime. You want to talk to your friends with an iPhone? Well, you need an iPhone too!
So yeah, we as a society need to decide what we define as "phone stuff". Having the ability to communicate with every other phone for "phone stuff" is critical from an economic perspective, and eventually will also be so from a safety perspective. Requiring inter-phone communications to be standardized isn't too far-fetched of an idea.
(Requiring the same non-phone-stuff apps to work on different platforms though is stupid.)
Cross Platform for Generic Apps. (Score:2)
I am a big fan of Cross Platform Application Development.
However these are for applications that do not really take the advantage of the platform.
Having made web apps for Blackberry then for iPhone and Android... things such as different screen dimensions, different input methods, additional features also come into play.
Even the fact that each System has a different sets of interface standards, that can come in to make your app look good or crappy
Then make development easier (Score:2)
Political momentum grapple ENGAGE! (Score:3)
Reminds me of how NAMBLA used to try to slip into gay pride parades.
Stoned Moron.. (Score:2)
hypocrtical bastards (Score:3)
BBM was made for Blackberry only and served precisely to keep people locked into the platform by not allowing other platforms to access the service. It wasn't until they had lost their user base that they cared about such things. It was as wrong when they did it, as when Apple does it now.
A Real Capitalist (Score:3)
When you're in deep trouble, you decide that it's the government's absolute duty to use the law keep you in business.
All that "free market" talk is for the suckers. What capitalists want is government guaranteed profit; i.e. they want the same free ride that Wall Street gets.
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Delphi XE7 doesn't look to me like it even comes close to supporting "every" platform. I see no support listed for linux/gtk, linux/qt, linux/others, free/open/netBSD/gtk, free/open/netBSD/qt, free/open/netBSD/others, solaris & free offshoots, etc. I realize it would be pretty ridiculously far-fetched for any commercial entity to support all those, but open source does. All of those have vi, emacs, gcc, Java, etc. I'm pretty sure Eclipse works on all of them.
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What?
Sorry, this makes no sense to me. Why should Apple be forced to open up its protocol? Why is that necessary for the public good? As people are always delighted to point out, Apple's market share is by no means the majority. Apple isn't a utility.
If people don't like iMessage or people they know aren't on iMessage, then they can use something else. I chat with friends on Hangouts (which, if I'm honest, is the worst of all the chat apps out there), WhatsApp (some clumsy UI elements, but lots of good feat