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Privacy Government

Washington Dancers Sue To Prevent Identity Disclosure 461

An anonymous reader writes with this BBC story about a Washington open-records law that is having some controversial consequences for some unlikely people. "Government open-records requests can be boring. Government open-records requests made by a man who wants to obtain information about 70 licensed strippers in his town so he can 'pray for them', on the other hand... The godly citizen in question is David Allen Van Vleet of Tacoma, Washington. In September he filed court papers to obtain personal information on 70 government-licensed nude dancers at a nightclub in his area — including their full names, addresses, photos and dates of birth. (Yes, Washington requires nude dancers to pay a $75 a year license fee.) The county auditor granted his request under the state's open-records law - although she also notified area dancers and club managers of her action. On 21 October two licensees sued to block the release of the information. Two days later a county judge issued a temporary order blocking the release, with a final decision scheduled for 15 December."
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Washington Dancers Sue To Prevent Identity Disclosure

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  • In the uk (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 09, 2014 @03:13PM (#48346155)

    Under the freedom of information act this would be refused likely on the grounds of data protection or No discernible public interest. Does the US law not have an equivalent?

    • Re:In the uk (Score:5, Informative)

      by LF11 ( 18760 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @03:17PM (#48346187) Homepage
      In the US, FOIA requests can be denied on the basis of privacy violations (exemption 6), and law enforcement information (which this qualifies, I think) can be denied if its release could endanger the life or physical safety of any individual. http://www.foia.gov/faq.html#exemptions
      • by Kohath ( 38547 )

        They shouldn't be allowed to record it then. In general, if it's available to someone (presumably a government worker), it should be available to the public.

        • Re:In the uk (Score:5, Insightful)

          by LF11 ( 18760 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @06:19PM (#48347151) Homepage
          I disagree, emphatically. There are all kinds of government-owned information which should never be publicly visible. Individuals in witness protection programs, tattoo identification experts, certain expert witnesses, concealed weapons permit holders, gun ownership records in general, undercover officer identities, and so on.

          Mind you, I consider myself to be an extremist libertarian bordering on anarchist, and I still think there is lots of information which (if it exists in the first place) should never be publicly revealed.
    • Federally, yes, that exists. The open records law in question is a state law.

      • Under federal law it could be denied on grounds of national security with no other reason needed. There is no penalty on the federal level for needlessly classifying information.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by QuasiSteve ( 2042606 )

      Technically this isn't FOIA, but the Public Records Act of Washington (state).

      That said... just look at the shit-ton of exemptions in there already from industries with strong lobbying groups:
      http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/defa... [wa.gov]

      Anybody who defends this guy - his intentions are clearly not that as honorable as simply wishing to pray for these strippers - on grounds of "what are they going to block next?" should have a look at that list, and realize that their concerns materialized before they ever realized they

  • I wonder... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ShaunC ( 203807 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @03:19PM (#48346199)

    Does the state's database only include actual strippers? In Ohio, police stole a woman's drivers license information [archive.org] and assigned it to an undercover officer, who then got hired on as a stripper as part of a sting operation. It sure would suck if, after being victimized by the police in that manner, a woman was then subjected to who knows what sort of harassment from a random citizen who just wanted to "pray for" her.

    • Imagine what happens when a background check turns up that she has an active stripper's license. That's some screwed up funny business.

    • Hell, if I were in charge, I'd deny the request and tell the guy if he wanted to pray for the strippers, he can do that anonymously because "God knows who they are." And if he wants to pray to the strippers, he'd better bring a lot of dollar bills for the sacrifice.

  • by MrLint ( 519792 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @03:20PM (#48346203) Journal

    I cannot see how the argument for 'prayer' is legit on logistical or supernatural grounds. There is no clear public benefit here to release this information to this person for the purposes of his own (I guess) spiritual needs. I'd even be hard pressed to make the case if he wanted to do direct health outreach. The licensees can be reached via the places of employ.

    Furthermore, one can readily presume that if you are prying for someone to an allegedly omniscient being, he/she/it would be able to work out the details.

    • by amiga3D ( 567632 )

      I don't think God wants him to know or he'd tell him. He's trying to thwart God's will for his own ends. Some of these guys forget they are servants of God not his advisers.

    • There's also the obvious interest(above and beyond the privacy considerations anyone would have about information pertaining to them) raised by the fact that sex workers getting murdered by their more unhinged customers is a fair regular occurrence.

      If I saw a public records request like that I'd tell the cops to check on the cadaver dog; because it is going to be real busy in the near future.
  • If your deity has all the info already?

    If your deity doesn't want to divulge the information, you shouldn't be asking the government for it, should you?

    You can always pray for Jane Doe 1, Jane Doe 2 etc. Your deity will know for whom the prayers are meant and will change his plan, just for you.

    Bert

  • by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @03:26PM (#48346243) Journal
    Same idiocy happened here in the Netherlands when a journalist, someone with extreme leftist connections and a known ETA (terrorist organization) sympathizer, requested the names and addresses of firearms license holders under open government laws. In the end, the guy did not get the requested info i.e. name and address, photo, and serial numbers of the weapons, but he did get a list of date of birth and city of residence of each license holder as well as the manual for Verona, the software that tracks firearm licenses. As a gun owner, the idea of government freely handing this info to people closely tied to ETA terrorists somehow does not give me a warm cozy feeling about sensitive data being in safe governmental hands.

    It's very simple: "open government" means that the government should disclose information on the details of their own operation, but never information that can be tied to individuals, except where it concerns information on holders of public office that is relevant to the right of the public to monitor them. Only aggregated data on citizens should be disclosed. And for civil servants or elected officials, relevant data means stuff like expense claims, not stuff like their address, records of previous employment or registered religion.
    • why would you expose any information about individual civil or crown servants and why should an individual expense claim be exposed? - you do know that civil servants and pseudo civil servants are targeted by terrorists - I personally know two people whose close family where targeted and killed - they are going through the truth and reconciliation process in NI
      • by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @03:55PM (#48346421) Journal
        Expense claims should be a matter of public record since it is our money they are spending, but again only the relevant data should be exposed: how much and on what, but not where. Interestingly, while the gun owner info was freely given, the government agencies fight requests for expense reports tooth and nail. Personally I would like to know why a 10 person junket from my city's government to NYC ended up costing over €300k. Now I don't expect high ranking officials to travel coach, but I do expect them to be somewhat careful with public funds. When they aren't, we have a need and a right to know.
        • but you can dig through all the records and selectively quote one example "monster " the employee for political ends
    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) *

      It depends on the nature of the information. A licence to take your clothes off at a private venue is probably not something that should be shared, but there is a clear public interest angle for a waste processing license or a planning application. In simple terms it depends on how much of a risk the licensed actions have to the general public, and usually the reason they are licensed is because they a re risky.

  • by dirk ( 87083 ) <dirk@one.net> on Sunday November 09, 2014 @03:28PM (#48346265) Homepage

    The open records request and fulfillment isn't the issue here. If the government licenses someone, you should be able to request the information of everyone with that license (although I'm not sure home information should be included since it is a professional license). This would be the easiest way to see who is and isn't a licensed professional.

    The issue is why in the bloody hell is the government licensing dancers? There is no reason to do that other than they want to collect some extra fees from people. There is no professional service being offered that a license would effect. The purpose of licensing professionals is to ensure that the person meets some basic requirements. Unless they are going to try and require a minimum cup size or dancing ability, there isn't anything to license here.

    • The licensing office should be able to, given the licensee's information, say whether that person has a valid license. There is no reason to make all the information public. It is not a license to spam people with job offers, prayers, or harassment.

      • by v1 ( 525388 )

        Less than a week after I got plates for a used vehicle I had bought, I had a postcard in the mail to warn me that my "manufacturer's warranty was expired or was about to expire" and to contact them to get it extended.

        They're already vacuuming up the public records for marketing. This isn't any different. Why does it matter if its for a stripper's license or a vehicle registration license? Why should someone be able to suck up one list and not another?

        The only reason this is in the news is because someone

        • They shouldn't be able to do that either. Just because they can doesn't mean we should extend it.

          The only reason this is in the news is because it's plainly obvious the end result is not going to be religious tracts, but stalking and harassment.

    • Presumably someone (or some people) has the job of validating the licences and that the dancers are indeed dancing, nude, and capable of providing entertainment to an acceptable standard in that category.

      Probably that person/people don't want to lose that job... [which , when you look carefully enough, is the reason why government does 90% of what it does].

    • Ideally, a licensing should be to verify that a particular individual has a licence in good standing. The person supplies the already-known information and the government only confirms that it's valid.

      It's not the same as other public records where there is a public interest in having all the information.

    • by PPH ( 736903 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @04:37PM (#48346629)

      The issue is why in the bloody hell is the government licensing dancers?

      Actually, there is. Its to keep underage dancers and those with criminal (prostitution) records out of the clubs. The way it works (is supposed to work) is that dancers are issued licenses in their real names by the state. These licenses must be presented to 'adult cabaret' operators (who are also licensed) as a prerequisite to working on the premises.

      At one time, the actual license had to be held by the cabaret. Supposedly, this allowed law enforcement to 'pull' the license of anyone convicted of various offenses (prostitution). In fact, this law was written under the guidance of the Colacurcio [wikipedia.org] family regime as a means to tie dancers to their clubs. This is very similar to how women in some countries are forced into prostitution (sometimes by surrendering passports instead of licenses). The licensing process may have been changed since many Seattle politicians were caught in Frank's back pocket.

      Fundamentally, the licensing laws are a good idea. But possession of a license is a matter between a dancer and a cabaret.

      One thing that this whole thread might be missing: Since the death of Frank Sr and the ejection of his family from the Seattle strip club scene, the business has really taken off with several new clubs opening. This is in part due to corrupt politicians having been tossed out who helped the Colacurcios maintain their near monopoly. Now, there is a huge demand for dancers in these new clubs and I'm just wondering out loud to myself: Is Van Vleet actually trying to round up the names and addresses of dancers to open his own club?

  • by bledri ( 1283728 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @03:42PM (#48346345)
    That said, you'd think an all knowing God already knows who the strippers are.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @03:47PM (#48346381)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by rhysweatherley ( 193588 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @04:21PM (#48346567)

      strip clubs...they dont exist in Pakistan, Iran, or North Korea ...

      Oh, you can be sure strip clubs exist there too. It's just that the average Schmoe is not rich enough or well connected enough to swing an invite. The same economic rules apply everywhere: money can buy anything and corrupt religious hypocrites can usually be found living it up in the local red light district.

  • Can you make a request and get the state drivers license records in Washington?

  • I call bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JustNiz ( 692889 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @04:08PM (#48346487)

    It seems to me that you actually don't need someone's personal details just to pray for them.

    • Pretty much this. Provided there is a god and he's the all-mighty one, he should have no problem finding out the strippers' identities, or I call bullshit on his all-mightiness.

    • by Livius ( 318358 )

      And who does he think he is praying for them without their consent? To a spiritual person, surely that's the greater breach of privacy.

  • including their full names, addresses, photos and dates of birth

    I want to know more about those photos. Do that clearly document how suitable these young women are to be in this profession? If so, maybe I need a copy so that I can pray for then too. And clearly you need all of this information to pray for them, God would have no idea who to credit the prayers to if you didn't have their full name, address and date of birth.

  • Ummm, why does he need the names and addresses to pray for them? Sort of like “what does God need with a starship?” Surely this man's all seeing deity can take care of these wayward soles by just know this man cares about the state of their immortal souls.

    Of course maybe this is a more impotent rather than Omnipotent God, in which case I guess this man has to carry God's message in person, to do what God can't.

    • BTW, that first soles was also supposed to be souls.

      Seems there trouble with my soul (sole) as well.

    • by frovingslosh ( 582462 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @05:01PM (#48346759)
      You clearly don't have a good understanding of prayer. Clearly God knows everything and has a supreme vision of how his eternal plan is to unfold. Prayer is a way to say to God "excuse me, but I would like you to change your plan, I have an idea of how things should progress, and I would like you to at least consider if my idea isn't the right way for things to go". Clearly no one would bother the Almighty just to say "I approve of how you plan to have all things develop, keep up the good work", so when contacting God to ask him to change his plans you better have good facts, like names and addresses and exact birth dates of any strippers that you want him to change his plans for the universe over. Otherwise you're just bothering him needlessly.
  • by Fencepost ( 107992 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @05:13PM (#48346817) Journal
    If they were easier to get I'd happily cough up the $75 to become an officially licensed exotic dancer, but the county referenced when I first saw this story a few days ago looked like it'd be a pain unless you were actually an employee of one of the businesses.

    Of course, if I did this my wife might actually demand that I dance for her and that could just be ugly all around. I am not a man built for a stripper pole.
  • Jade (Score:5, Funny)

    by PopeRatzo ( 965947 ) on Sunday November 09, 2014 @05:23PM (#48346875) Journal

    I'm interested in the real identity of Jaquie from the Industrial Strip Gentleman's Club in Hammond, IN. Sweetie, if you see this, call me. Daddy's been bad again.

    Don't look at me like that. She's working her way through law school, you know.

  • by dbIII ( 701233 ) on Monday November 10, 2014 @01:39AM (#48348381)
    Shouldn't he be off helping the poor instead of victimizing women that have enough trouble without a vigalantee with a hard-on turning up outside their front door?

"The great question... which I have not been able to answer... is, `What does woman want?'" -- Sigmund Freud

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