Facebook Apologizes To Drag Queens Over "Real Name" Rule 280
An anonymous reader writes Facebook apologized to drag queens and the LGBT community after an outcry over the social network's policy of requiring members to use real names on their accounts. While the policy itself will stay in place, Facebook says, it will be changing how the rule is enforced. In a Wednesday post, Facebook's Chief Product Officer Chris Cox apologized to "the affected community of drag queens, drag kings, transgender, and extensive community of our friends, neighbors, and members of the LGBT community for the hardship that we've put you through in dealing with your Facebook accounts over the past few weeks."
What real name policy? (Score:3, Insightful)
If fb is serious and enforcing the policy, their user count will be reduced by at least 60 percent which essentially cut the worth of the company in half.
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I dare bet fake names also account for a disproportionally large amount of activity.
Why would you bother signing up a fake account if you're not going to use the account?
Re:What real name policy? (Score:5, Interesting)
I dare bet fake names also account for a disproportionally large amount of activity.
Why would you bother signing up a fake account if you're not going to use the account?
Anonymity is part of the Internet--it creates problems, sure, but it also allows people to say what they actually think without fear of being punished for having the "Wrong" viewpoint. For example, your bleeding heart liberal ways will likely run afoul of your boss' staunch conservatism, and if he's a jerk, might damage your career if he knew about it.
There's nothing wrong with having any specific point of view, but about having the ability to selectively determine who knows you have this belief without being constrained about expressing it.
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That's why you have... Facebook for your private network.
Ha Ha Ha! Good one!
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Anonymity is part of the Internet--
You don't say, Mr. Cocknozzle.
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"Anonymity is part of the Internet"
no, it's an option on the internet. Companies don't need to allow it.
Then don't accept friend request form people you don't want to see your account.
Or is telling someone know to direct and not passive aggressive enough?
"but about having the ability to selectively determine who knows you have this belief without being constrained about expressing it."
then don't fucking announce it in a public forum.
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Utter nonsense: Anonymity is a requirement for true free speech. Much of the muckraking done to start the American Revolution was done anonymously because the authors of the papers didn't want to be hung by British loyalists. Ditto France. Ditto most major popular revolutions in truly oppressive countries: The real "thought leaders" publish anonymously to keep themselves alive.
"Free speech" is meaningless if there isn't a way to publish something without your
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I've been saying for a while now that Facebook knows their headline product is doomed. They seem to be doing everything they can to assure that the company doesn't go down with its flagship site. Rushing its demise to squeeze a little more short term value out of it is entirely in keeping with that notion.
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Yeah, but now Facebook--though still requiring you to use your real name, real address, real phone number, and real place of work in your profile--will allow you the option to check a box saying "I'm a transexual!!" for everyone in your small town to see. Isn't that apology enough???
Re:What real name policy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Given that most of the people I know on FB don't use their real names, I think FB is just being super-silly.
Good (Score:2)
Good to hear that they apologized.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
They're very sorry for this policy which they intend to continue. But they're very sorry about it. And that's coming from the heart, man.
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Yeah, I love corporate apologies. They value my business, appreciate my concerns, and are always sorry for the way I felt about their behavior. No one else every says that to me on a regular basis.
Reverse discrimination is still discrimination (Score:5, Interesting)
I see no reason why any person with a private Facebook page should be given special status or exemptions from the rules just because of some arbitrary, momentarily popular PC BS category.
Re:Reverse discrimination is still discrimination (Score:5, Informative)
I see no reason why any person with a private Facebook page should be given special status or exemptions from the rules just because of some arbitrary, momentarily popular PC BS category.
Except that there are whole classes of FB profiles out there that do not have real names attached to them and were not targeted .. EG Profiles named for/after pets.
This is not a case of PC gone wild, but genuine discrimination.
Re:Reverse discrimination is still discrimination (Score:4, Interesting)
Profiles for pets, WTF? Can teddy bears have profiles too? Are the pets allowed to have political opinions?
Why are facebook apologising to all LGBTs and not just Drag Queens? Why do drag queens get to have an alias and not straight people who wear straight peoples clothes. If women wear trousers do they get to call themselves cross-dressers and get an alias? If the pet cross-dresses can it have an alias?
This is all fucking insane.
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"My" Facebook page exists solely for my pets. And yes, they have political opinions (they favor absolute monarchy justified by the doctrine of the Divine Right of Cats).
See, I have zero interest in what my 6000 closest "friends" do. I have zero interest in sharing details of the texture of my morning bowel movement with half the planet (or even just with those 6000 "friends"). I have zero inter
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Thankfully there has not been anything exclusive to Facebook important enough to make me want to join up.
Re:Reverse discrimination is still discrimination (Score:5, Insightful)
Profiles for pets, WTF? Can teddy bears have profiles too? Are the pets allowed to have political opinions?
Why are facebook apologising to all LGBTs and not just Drag Queens? Why do drag queens get to have an alias and not straight people who wear straight peoples clothes. If women wear trousers do they get to call themselves cross-dressers and get an alias? If the pet cross-dresses can it have an alias?
This is all fucking insane.
Well what about writers with pen names? Musicians and actors with stage names?
Sting has a facebook page. His real name is not Sting, so why should he have special privileges?
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He shouldn't.
Re:Reverse discrimination is still discrimination (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, it's been a while, Green Site!
Why are facebook apologising to all LGBTs and not just Drag Queens?
Ok, there's a great deal of confusion I see here. It's a question of use-case.
Drag queens are performing artists. See Rue Paul or Pandora Boxx, neither of which iirc use HRT or intend to transition to adopting their performing identities as their own 24/7. Companies get FB pages, so why shouldn't their performing identities get FB pages in addition to their own personal pages?
I find it odd that FB is apologizing to drag queens or that they would even target drag queens. (I'd also like to add that one curious thing I read in Whipping Girl is that drag queens are often welcomed into the female restroom, but trans women are shunned from that place.)
In the case of trans men and women, if FB has targeted them (I haven't been), FB is clearly wrong and the apology is justified. Especially in the case of trans women, proceeding with a legal name change is a risk that can land one homeless in a gutter. I'd also like to add that in my personal experience that I'm gendered female by others quite often (just lucky I guess), however changing my real name without being able to go without a job for a year or two would be suicidal. Employers have this little habit of demanding documents that contain one's legal gender. If one's legal gender doesn't match with the gender of one's identity and the gender others assign to one, it's OMG fucking holy shit GTFO.
There's also the complication that a name change is not enough to get those documents to match one's lived gender. My state requires bottom surgery before the documents can be amended, although some clever trans women are able to get the gender on their driver's license changed at the DMV with a little social engineering (others aren't so lucky). Other states make it impossible to change those documents even with bottom surgery.
My friends know me by one name. My employer and clients know me by another. However, FB is not a network for professionals so instead I have a LinkedIn profile with one name and a FB profile I haven't touched in probably two years with another name (just a few more years and it'll be my real name), the one my friends know me as.
Why do drag queens get to have an alias and not straight people who wear straight peoples clothes.
What is straight peoples' clothes, exactly? Do homosexuals wear something different to the office? In my experience, gays and lesbians tend to dress just the same as their heterosexual peers.
Yes, I'm intentionally being obtuse. I hope I addressed the confusion about drag above. This is a question of identity.
I'd also like to give you something to think about. Currently I'm between genders, so it's all wibbly-wobbly. However, should I obtain bottom surgery after going full time as a woman, I will then be a heterosexual woman and indistinguishable from any other straight woman who cannot have children due to whatever medical problem.
Your head will asplode the day the procedure for a barren cisgendered woman to receive a transplanted uterus (I'm too lazy to find the link, but I believe the procedure involved transplanting her mother's uterus into her so that she could have children) is expanded to transgendered women.
If women wear trousers do they get to call themselves cross-dressers and get an alias?
Why would a cisgendered woman want to have a male identity? If this is a case of a trans man or somebody experimenting with presenting a male identity, then I would say it's justified.
I've met a few trans men, and the decision to undergo gender transition is an even bigger hurdle for them than trans women. There is no bottom surgery they can hope for, and they have to be absolutely certain before they expose their bodies to testosterone. Estrogen is easy, and its changes to the body can be hidden or even reversed. That's
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You know my post was mostly tongue-in-cheek, truth is I don't have a Facebook account because I think Facebook stinks like Google and google+ stink. The "real" name policy is not to prevent bullying, it is to increase advertising/data mining revenues.
The whole issue with employers seeing an employees Facebook profile just shows what a mess the maze of privacy settings are. Employers should not be able to stalk employees anyway, but good luck stopping them without technical means, means like aliases!
Now, I'm
Re:Reverse discrimination is still discrimination (Score:4, Insightful)
The policy isn't the issue.
Yes it is.
Where is this insistence on real-naming coming from? Not the users (ie, 'the product'), but the advertisers (ie, 'the customers'). The users know their friends' aliases, but the advertisers can't or won't make that leap without some help in the form of arbitrary Terms of Use.
The policy IS the issue. The drag performers are just a symptom.
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I see no reason why any person with a private Facebook page should be given special status or exemptions from the rules just because of some arbitrary, momentarily popular PC BS category.
"Momentarily popular?" Are you joking? Men dressing as women has been part of the theatre since... since there was a theatre. Drag is a performance art, dude, and just because you don't personally like or approve of it doesn't delegitimize it as an art form, or magically erase the real physical danger drag queens in certain intolerant societies actually face.
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It is. You notice their is a FB page for Sting. A stage name.
If you are a professional entertainer, then yes you can get a page for your performance personality.
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch, people of common sense have NEVER signed up with Facebook using a real goddam name.
How fucking dumb can one human be?
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Because Its facebook's system, they can decide and enforce their rules as they see fit. Discrimination is a fact of life, and a good thing in many cases [Facebook discriminates against those under the age of 13! The Horror!!]. Weather or not you like a particular discrimination, is your viewpoint.
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Weather or not you like a particular discrimination, is your viewpoint.
It's not like choosing a football team to support, you know.
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Don't forget that the rule itself is some arbitrary thing made up by Facebook. It's their rule and they can define and enforce it any way they want (as long as they don't violate anybody's civil rights).
I suspect they will change the enforcement of the rule so that only people trying to cause somebody else grief will be punished.
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Did Facebook ask YOU to prove your identity when you created an account? Would you send them a photo of your drivers license, bank statement, or whatever just to create an account? Did slashdot ask you to prove who you are, Mr Anonymous Coward?
It's not reverse discrimination - only people who other people wanted to "out" (in this case, one individual reported the 200 cases in question) are suddenly under undue scrutiny, based on their gender expression. That's not reverse discrimination - that's discrim
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Yes, yuarite.
Meanwhile, the rest of us can whine about how "unfair" Facebook is to others who would like to use fake names.
The one thing most people won't do, no matter how pissed off they are, is quit Facebook... and Facebook knows that.
Why only LGBT? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why would LGBT members require more of an apology than heterosexual cisgenders who desire to use another name?
Re:Why only LGBT? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why only LGBT? (Score:4, Funny)
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One gender identity good, two gender identities BETTER.
Mod points! Mod points! My kingdom for mod points!
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You might try asking that question to Marshall Mathers [facebook.com].
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Could just be an oversight.
I support anyone's right to self identify gender, dress as they want,engage in consensual activities with anyone they want, If I'm missing something on this list I likely support that as well. But - I don't actually know the correct all-inclusive term to use and had though that LGBT covered everything.
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I have 17 Facebook accounts and I never use my real name. I don't have to. I challenge anyone to provide a citation.
All the bastards can do (and have done) is block an account.
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Cis is just a term cooked up to pressure people that are straight up men and women to be forced to adhere to a pretty restrictive set of gender restrictions
That's a good point, despite the tone posting AC has given to your comments. I know people who are "mostly straight" - forcing them into a particular mold helps nobody other than the sexuality-OCD.
Also, I can't help but think of organic chemistry when people use these terms, but it's entirely the wrong kind of organic chemistry. IIRC there's no way to
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Re:Ok (Score:4, Funny)
So if Fred Phelps had gone around calling himself God's Fag Killing Machine
Well I always did think Fred Phelps was a pseudonym.
pseudonym .. (Score:2)
... . you mean like, "asshole."
Hey, look at me, I'm using a pseudonym.
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Facebook's most practical approach would be to punt to the courts. Would the courts allow "God's Fag Killing Machine" as a name change? That kid who was taken away from his parents for being named "Adolph Hitler [smith-or-whatever]" will be old enough to sign up for a Facebook account in a few years.
The bind they're in is that by not adhering to the legal regime, they're having to make judgment calls - so far they can sit on their terms of service and tell those who are offended by everything to take a wa
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Facebook's best practical approach would be to stop taking themselves seriously.
Facebook is not a government authority like the freaking IRS or anything.
It's a goddam social network where people post pictures of their Starbucks coffee cup.
Facebook's goal is to have all members be "real," so they can tell the advertisers that.
The advertisers get really pissed when Facebook over-reports the "realness" of their membership.
Taking Offense is Taking Over (Score:5, Insightful)
Alternative lifestyles are free to be offensive to some niches of society. Thus, neither are you, Lil Miss Hot Mess, guaranteed the right not to be offended.
Being driven by ratings based on the viewing habits of folks who have checked out, the fourth estate is there in force to address every imaginable social injustice.
Being An Ignorant Dipshit is Taking Over (Score:3, Interesting)
Newsflash: Drag queens, drag kings, and other people in the LGBT community can often go by pseudonyms because they might happen to live with a family that would put them out on the street if they found out. Drag queens, drag kings, and especially transgendered people are subject to not just that, but downright assault as a result of their lifestyle. This isn't about people being offended, this is about the fact that Facebook's policy could cause actual, physical harm to people. Fuck you, you ignorant fuckst
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Oh come on now. Just tell your parents what you do at night, down in the city, and see if they accept you for who you are.
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From the king of ignorant fucksticks:
"If you have something that you don’t want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in the first place." -- Eric Schmidt
And yet, even G+ repealed it's real name policy. [slate.com]
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Otherwise known as being considerate and polite. Old-fashioned, I know.
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How exactly does this change in policy hurt your tender feelings?
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She didn't demand the "right" not to be offended, she just said she was offended and Facebook decided to do something about it because they realized they had made a mistake.
Honestly, stop trying to be a victim here. There is no political correctness, no agenda, no-one is out to take away your rights. It's just a normal complaint about something Facebook probably never intended in the first place and was happy to fix.
Now apologize to whistle-blowers. (Score:3)
I'm a disembodied brain floating in a jar (Score:2)
Re:I'm a disembodied brain floating in a jar (Score:5, Funny)
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I guess they think my account "bob disembodied brain" is a real person.
Seems legit to me.
As real as you are!
Way to be offensive in the apology (Score:4, Insightful)
The so-called "apology" is in itself offensive and patronizing. "Drag queens" to LGBT is what "Exotic dancers" are to being a straight woman (or a man, I suppose). The choice of names they used in the example is also not coincidental.
I wonder if reaction would have been different were facebook to require all married women to use their husbands name (Mrs Robinson), and then apologized by way by letting them keep their "Lil Miss Makemeasammich" monikers.
It's only "PC bullshit" until it's your problem.
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Since it was a non apology that seems to complete miss the point, the posters bring up a good point.
What about me? (Score:2)
I'm a lesbian, trapped in the body of a man.
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The undergo the procedure to become a woman.
Whats that, you're a man who like a women? You don't know what lesbian means, do you?
Oh, you were being 'funny'. It's ok I remember when I was in 6th grade.
People who who work with kids also use fake names (Score:5, Insightful)
Teachers and counsellors often don't want the kids they work with to be able to easily find them on facebook, so they use fake names. I have many friends who do this. So far they haven't been affected by any rule enforcement.
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Teachers and counsellors often don't want the kids they work with to be able to easily find them on facebook, so they use fake names. I have many friends who do this. So far they haven't been affected by any rule enforcement.
Well, that's one solution. Another is for them to use their real name on Facebook and a fake name in class... some hilarious options come to mind.
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Yes, but there livelhood won't be impacted of there accounts are closed, unlike profession entertainers who don't want that chance. These specific entertainer have a grope of people who are ALWAYS trying to cause them problems, so getting reported to facebook is much more likely.
Whats in a name? (Score:2)
Maybe its because I have been in online forums since I was a teenager, but, as far as I am concerned your "real name" is exactly whatever you say it is, and, you can have as many real names as you want, because your real name is whatever you accept that people call you. Period. That is as much realness to your name as I recognize.
You tell me your name is voltron. Your name *IS* voltron as far as I am concerned. your real one.
yeah, the integrity of Facebook is at stake (Score:3)
Re:its their own fault (Score:5, Interesting)
So drag queens can use fake names but the rest cant?
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Exactly. If you must use a real name you must use a real name. I know that Facebook has exceptions for "famous" people like authors, actors, podcasters and so on.
So I would be okay with Rue Paul getting a pass but to give it to just one group is wrong.
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So I would be okay with Rue Paul getting a pass but to give it to just one group is wrong.
It's not wrong if the one group who's getting the exception represents the group who's unfairly burdened by the original requirement. I'm not clear whether you're supporting or against the decision, but transgender people are unfairly burdened by a requirement of using their birth name when that doesn't agree with the different name they're getting most people (hoping eventually everyone) to use in the real world.
Re:its their own fault (Score:5, Insightful)
represents the group who's unfairly burdened by the original requirement.
I would say that the group is fairly burdened by the requirement. Burdens arent unfair just because you dont want to be burdened.
Re:its their own fault (Score:5, Insightful)
You have such a fundamental misunderstanding of some very basic concepts of justice (which have been tackled over and fucking over throughout the last 100 years of jurisprudence) that I'm not sure whether to bother replying to you.
Consider the following rule: "Anyone whose hair holds a pencil when inserted into the hair is not permitted into the party."
Is it unfair?
Well, no, on the surface of it, it isn't. Pretty simple rule, really? Applies to everyone. Everyone's treated the same. If you don't like it, don't spray/curl your hair, right?
No, of course not. It's a test for blackness. A person who has black skin is way more likely to fail the test than a person who has white skin. It's inherent to black people that they have curlier, tougher hair which is more likely to hold a pencil.
Just as it's inherent to transgender people that their sex organs do not reflect their psychological gender, so there is a very high likelihood that they are misnamed at birth.
Justice does not just consider whether a rule is equally applied to everyone, but whether a rule in effect treats everyone equally. Only in exceptional circumstances do we consider as just a rule which somehow disadvantages a group because of some innate feature of that group.
Reality: deal with it.
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If obama requires an ID to meet the president, why is it unfair to need one to vote for him?
Re:its their own fault (Score:4, Interesting)
Voter ID laws shouldn't be racist. Everyone should have ID, especially if they want to vote exactly one time.
Unfortunately voter ID laws were foisted on counties and districts where those enacting them knew that it would impact urban (and thus likely democratic) voters disproportionately. It's the sort of change that you make an election or two in the future, and send a state ID team out to major polling places now, so people are prepared when your sensible change rolls around.
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represents the group who's unfairly burdened by the original requirement.
I would say that the group is fairly burdened by the requirement. Burdens arent unfair just because you dont want to be burdened.
Neither are burdens fair just because they're imposed by a religiously-based conservative majority.
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Which has nothing to do with a private company having a rule for a real name.
The fact that groups are given except is appalling. They should either have the rule, or remove it.
Re:its their own fault (Score:5, Insightful)
represents the group who's unfairly burdened by the original requirement.
I would say that the group is fairly burdened by the requirement. Burdens arent unfair just because you dont want to be burdened.
If you actually read the news stories (it's been widely reported) you'll find out that one individual reported 200 xgenders. Sounds to me like someone who was targeting a group based on their gender expression. Facebook said they didn't catch what had happened at first because they get thousands of reports.
Facebook clarified it's policy by saying that you can go by the name you're known by to the general public. How would you like it if you couldn't go by the nickname you've been using since grade school, but had to use your "real name"? "William Robert Doe? Who the heck is that? Oh, you mean Billy-Bob?"
Transgenders who are not transsexuals generally retain their legal birth name for things such as banking, etc. However, in the context of social interactions, what is the harm in letting them use the name that their friends and the general public know them as? Isn't it supposed to be a social network, and not a courtroom?
For transsexuals, do you have any idea of how long it takes to do the paperwork in some jurisdictions? Some places will refuse to change your name without a valid reason, backed up by documentation. And what is someone supposed to do while they're transitioning? Go by their old name (one that conforms to their old gender) on Facebook when their co-workers know them by a different name and gender? The Standards of Care for transsexuals require that you live and work full-time in your target gender for at least a year. So you've got a year when you don't have that documentation, and then another year while it goes through - minimum. Sure, YMMV, but that's the way it is where I live.
Re: its their own fault (Score:5, Insightful)
use your real name like us normal folks
Wow, I have now met the real person called "Anonymous Coward"
Is it me or is it just funny that someone posted anonymously that you should used your real name like "Normal Folks"
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He is saying the rule(regardless of what it is) should be evenly applied.
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", but transgender people are unfairly burdened by a requirement of using their birth name when that doesn't agree with the different name they're getting most people (hoping eventually everyone) to use in the real world."
They want people to use that name. So why doesn't everyone have the right to pick the name they want to be called on Facebook?
You allow everybody pick their name or you do not.
Or if you really do not like your name you can always have it legally changed.
In discrimination. You are saying th
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Obviously nothing is stopping the "straight community" from using fake names on Facebook. Look at how many people have more than one account.
It's only when someone complains that Facebook gets grumpy. In this case 1 individual spent their time targeting 200 people. Sounds to me like that 1 individual has a problem.
Also, many transgenders and transsexuals are members of the "straight community." The definition of "straight", for transgenders who are not transsexual is straight-forward (pardon the pun)
Whoopi, Triple H, Gaga, and RuPaul (Score:4, Informative)
And that their drag persona and their day-job/legal identity are two spheres that many people want to keep separate?
Not everyone uses the legal identity on the day job, especially in entertainment. Consider Caryn Johnson, whose day job identity is Whoopi Goldberg. Or Paul Levesque, who goes by Hunter Hearst Helmsley professionally (or Triple H for short). Or Stefani Germanotta, who took the name Lady Gaga from a Queen song, possibly to escape No Doubt-related jokes. On the other hand, RuPaul Charles's drag name is just that: RuPaul.
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And that their drag persona and their day-job/legal identity are two spheres that many people want to keep separate?
Not everyone uses the legal identity on the day job, especially in entertainment. Consider Caryn Johnson, whose day job identity is Whoopi Goldberg. Or Paul Levesque, who goes by Hunter Hearst Helmsley professionally
Those two have the worst drag queen costumes I have ever seen.
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This is totally besides the point.
It's FB wanting to force people to use their real name, so they can identify you to do more stuff they shouldnt with your data.
And now that there's a giant move to Ello, or at least it's starting, they're backtracking.
They are catering to their profits, not to any subset of their users.
Lots of people use fake names, just because they dont want to use their real names. Not because we were all molested.
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Seriously, that's all they're doing. Someone who wants to put on the opposite gender's clothing, make up a fake name, and act like a giant stereotype of that gender with a fake name and made up personality needs mental help, not bent Facebook rules. Did you know that every study ever has found that 80-90% of drag queen, transsexuals, etc were abused as children?
Even if we take your claim at face value, what is the percentage of adults overall who were abused as children? Depending on how you define abuse, it could also be 80-90%.
Go watch "It's A Wonderful Life" this holiday season and ask yourself if George Bailey wasn't abusive towards his wife and kids.
Also, if you're a transsexual, you'll probably get bullied by other kids because, after all, they can sense you're different. It just leaks out, and kids can be really cruel, same as adults. You're confusi
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The thing that is not that big a deal is Facebook.
Use any fucking name you like.
What are they going to do?
Their only recourse is to down your account.
Just get another one.
Facebook is not a goddam government entity.
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It's about a Drag Queen aka a performer, using the stage name. Just like any other performer can do. ex: Sting. Not his real name,. but he gets to have a FB page for it.
Someone who make money as a performer can not change their name all the time.
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Why doesn't anyone understand that you can have any fucking name you like.
Facebook is simply a free advertiser site like all the freemails (Yahoo!, Gmail, Hotmail, etc.).
Facebook is an entertainment venue and not like the Geneva Convention or stuff.
Facebook is going to have to change its rules for everyone. That's when the wheels fall off the truck.
That started precisely when Facebook went IPO. Shareholders are a bitch.