Snowden: NSA Working On Autonomous Cyberwarfare Bot 194
WIRED published a long piece on Edward Snowden today (worth a read on its own), and simultaneously broke news of "MonsterMind," an NSA program to monitor all network traffic and detect attacks, responding with a counterattack automatically. From the article: Although details of the program are scant, Snowden tells WIRED in an extensive interview with James Bamford that algorithms would scour massive repositories of metadata and analyze it to differentiate normal network traffic from anomalous or malicious traffic. Armed with this knowledge, the NSA could instantly and autonomously identify, and block, a foreign threat. More than this, though, Snowden suggests MonsterMind could one day be designed to return fire — automatically, without human intervention...
Snowden raised two issues with the program: the source of an attack could be spoofed to trick the U.S. into attacking an innocent third party, and the violation of the fourth amendment since the NSA would effectively need to monitor all domestic network traffic for the program to work. Also in Bamford's interview are allegations that the NSA knocked Syria offline in 2012 after an attempt to install intercept software on an edge router ended with the router being bricked.
Should we really be worried? (Score:2)
Considering the absurd amounts of incompetence and waste we see with visible government entities, should we really be overly concerned about the NSA? Not saying I like them, or anything, but I'm not sure they're quite the beast we've made them out to be. Maybe.
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should we really be overly concerned about the NSA?
Yes. Any government entity that works beyond the limits of the laws and directly attacks citizens with the intent to remove inalienable rights is a threat, no matter how incompetent they may be.
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well the incompetence is a big part of the concern. The warbot they are building could be tricked and used in reverse to hurt us or harm our relationship with our allies. Even just its existence is enough to damage our relationships in technology commerce, in the ways in which it must be propagated and supported means us based technologies are a constantly liability.
Re:Should we really be worried? (Score:5, Insightful)
Incompetence is never good.
Incompetence in collecting and acting on information just means that the wrong people will be targeted and the "bad guys" will be missed.
A powerful, secretive, incompetent organization is the worst of all possible worlds.
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Should we really be worried? (Score:2)
Post the wrong set of words about funding a new war, new backing of freedom fighters, the use of drones in a new entanglement, the sending of boots on the ground.
Your IP, network and OS could then face a series of limited probes until your online life was constructed, ready for a file to be passed to a real human.
Your use of a fir
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Spying on Americans is wrong.
This revelation has nothing to do with spying on Americans. It actually seems like something the NSA should be doing, and doing secretly.
By leaking this, Snowden is not helping his "concerned citizen" image.
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I'm not sure if preemptive strikes against the IT infrastructure of a country that, essentially, looks at you the wrong way could be considered something that a security service should do. Especially considering the implications of having an automated system do it.
Watch "War Games" if you want to know why.
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Automating war is a scary. What people should really look at is things like the flash crash to know why; or even the recent BGP hijacks for that matter.
The more automation your create and the more those autonomous systems interact with one another the more potential you have for bizarre positive or negative feedback problems. Eventually the system becomes so complex it is no longer very predictable but plenty dangerous.
The stock market today can plunge 700 points for no fundamental reason what so ever. O
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The more you automate the system, the more you rely on digital technology, the more vulnerable you become. That extreme vulnerability is not to viruses or hacking or anything so complicated. The extreme vulnerability is to something as simple as electromagnetic pulses. Think about it, setting them off, not only disrupts everything about you but is also shuts down all pursuit of you. They can no longer respond, can no longer coordinate, can not longer pursue and in fact they are their stuck waiting, twiddli
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Spying on Americans is wrong.
In communist Russia, Americans spy on YOU.
... if not, so what)
(Think I got the meme right
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Committing acts of war undermining the infrastructure of a country that congress hasn't declared war on...hmm
The entire purpose of this system is retaliatory. It will only attack systems that are the source of an attack. It's not going to bring down a country's power grid.
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I pretty sure that the NSA is aware that IPs can be spoofed.
A digital version of the "Doomsday Machine" (Score:5, Insightful)
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No, this isn't the 'doomsday machine'. It's much more like William Gibson's ICE programs in 'Neuromancer'.
So very much like it that one wonders.....
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What can't be beat in naivete is the attempt to do so automatically. Especially a group whose bread and butter is misinformation and creating false flag scenarios should know that it's probably NOT a good idea to open yourself to that kind of reflection attack.
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Gentlemen, We must NOT allow the Digital Doomsday machine gap!
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What makes you think the NSA thinks they are the only ones working on this?
What makes you think the NSA is working on this? The words of someone who is trying to revive his fifteen minutes of fame? Here, from the summary:
"Could be". And I "could" decide to go out to my car "one day" and start running grandmothers down in the city park, but that doesn't mean I have done so or am even thinking about doing it.
Other than a car analogy, which I didn't realize I had made until I thought that this would be a good pl
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The US should be trying to negotiate international treaties to limit the development of autonomous weapons, much like the ones limiting the development of nuclear weapons and space based weapons. Otherwise it is very likely that at some point in the future American lives will become as worthless as Afghan lives, mere bugs to be murdered by machines from the air with no rules of engagement and no justice.
Where the fuck is the EU? (Score:3, Insightful)
Every US citizen is yelling for their constitutional rights broken by the NSA. But no Europeans complain about what the NSA is doing to THEM. Which is even worse. EU, fucking wake up.
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Well, that would be counterproductive. See, we get upset when the NSA spies on us But we love when the NSA spies on not us. The best strategy for EU residents is to shut up an hope we go too far in shutting down the spying.
I mean, I pay the NSA to spy on not us. That's their fucking job.
Where the fuck is the EU? (Score:2)
All parts of the EU had to offer was a few shared sites with optical and telco interconnects.
Kind of hard to give up on all that free or low cost US export grade equipment over some data on some citizens when the deals where done over decades.
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The German government, ok? The Germans are no more their government than the US people are.
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If you think it's in the hands of the US citizens...then you haven't been paying attention. It's in the hands of a very small group of extremely powerful people. They usually get their way be fraud, but partially it's because the design of the voting system means that there are only two viable candidates for any national office. (This is a result of the plurality wins voting system.) That means that only two candidates need to be bought off before the election. And the costs of running for office are s
Despotism (Score:2)
Despotism is the word you are looking for.
Dictators are not mandatory for despotism. New kinds of despotism are possible the US is already well on it's way there but not the dictator kind... if you wait for a dictator you will feel OK all the way up to being sent to the gulag.
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No, I don't feel OK now. I feel as if I were living in Rome about 5 years before Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon. (And if you think that wasn't a despotism, read your history. It was an oligarchical despotism, with more legal structure behind it than the US one. The republic essentially died after the war between Marius and Sulla, even if I never can keep them straight.)
Malicious network traffic repulser .. (Score:2)
Will this "MonsterMind" work on non Microsoft Windows network traffic?
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"Will this "MonsterMind" work on non Microsoft Windows network traffic?"
Of course it will. The NSA requested the protocol code so they could engineer it to run natively on all windows based network traffic. In fact it likely runs by default, with no way to turn it off in Win 8.
I for one (Score:2)
A second Great Firewall? (Score:3)
This project sounds to me like the NSA is attempting to build their own version of China's "great firewall", and that it'll be used domestically far more than it will be against foreign threats. I can easily see them sharing this with law enforcement agencies, even down to the local level, allowing them to essentially "turn off" internet access at will by blocking packets.
For example, yesterday, the FAA issued a no-fly order for parts of Missouri - this was presumably because there were racially-charged demonstrations over police killings planned for that day - to allow police helicopters free rein over that area. Now, with a system like this in place, I could easily see the police getting some intel that some people might be planning demonstrations and using this system to intercept a specific sub-set of packets: say, anything coming to and from social media from within the borders of the no-fly zone, to stop people organizing as easily.
A second Great Firewall? (Score:2)
Way too long article (Score:3)
It is pain in the ass these kind of articles are babbling about pizza, elevator and all this irrelevant stuff about the personality of the interviewer and the interviewee. Go straigth to the facts of interest and cut down this article from 7 pages to only 1.
It's like the author is trying to write the first chapter of a novel he hopes Hollywood will buy for the next blockbuster. Give us the facts, we can wait for the movie.
DDoS era is gone (Score:3)
umm... (Score:2)
Re:On come on now Edward (Score:5, Insightful)
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You should look up what Treason means. Because that's not what it means.
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That's funny, because the OP seems to very much be misunderstanding what it means, yet you didn't call him out on that.
Is there some valid reason you are supporting the NSA's criminal activity?
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What Snowden did, by it's nature is Treason sadly enough
The reason that Snowden wasn't charged with Treason is that it would be a big stretch to prove that he provided "aid and comfort" to our enemies without any sort of active collaboration with anyone.
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Re:On come on now Edward (Score:5, Informative)
if he was a true patriot as he claims he'd have faced the music
Oh come on, what the hell is patriotic about being shoved in an oubliette some place, after a show trial where you can't present any evidence because everything is classified?
Snowden would never get anything resembling a fair trial before a jury of his peers. A show trial is the most he could hope, but its just as likely he'd be held pretty much indefinitely without trial on some flimsy constitutionally unsound national security pretext. If you want to know who the cowards are its Kerry, Clapper, and Alexander who want to burry him or avoid tackling his criticism with lies and indirection rather than confronting it with actual facts.
Going through the system, and there is evidence he did try does not work. Just try filing and FOIA request about anything that is connected to "terrorism" in their wildest imaginations (like animal rights) and see what happens. The first time you will probably get a nice letter back telling you: "they can't tell you why they can't tell" you what you wanted because 'national security'. Send a another request for ANY information on how they handled your first request and they will probably just stonewall. Which is ILLEGAL the law say they have 20 days to do something and the three letter agencies won't do that.
Statistically you are more likely to die falling out of bed than you currently are from any kind of terrorist attack. Logic would then dictate at the very least we would create a "Bedtime Safety Authority" to make sure we are all tucked in at night before investing more in counter terrorism and yet we keep allocating more and more federal to that; well that is what the NSA tells us they are doing with them anyway preventing terrorism. Then we also dump more money into policing while crime nears all time lows, and yet no recruitment fliers for the BSA are there to be found.
There are no good reasons for these people to be doing what they are so they instead just want to silence critics like Snowden. No Snowden is no coward he is the guy that gave up home, family, and a cushy job in paradise to keep this issue alive.
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Patriotism is most certainly not blind allegiance to the law or a certain country, in addition to not meaning you're a masochist or a martyr.
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No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.
- Barbara Erenreich
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Early on, now he's just lame and anybody who believes the drivel after the initial doc release is being duped.
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And he has nobody to blame but himself. I'll give him credit for stealing a bunch of information and then publishing it, especially around the NSA's activities but after that it's all downhill from there. Wait. That's the definition of a spy isn't it? Maybe old John Pollard [wikipedia.org] would like to be considered patriotic then?
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Then change the fucking laws by electing representatives that don't piss all over the constitution. That's the only way you'll fix the problem. Shit we've known for years the FISA court was out there and frankly the whole pseudo court system isn't unprecedented. Ever hear of Tax court? So to all the people who bitch and moan about how the country is spying on them, tell your fucking reps in DC to stop it. If they don't stop the spying then elect people who will and stop voting the party line in electio
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Snowden would never get anything resembling a fair trial before a jury of his peers.
Snowden openly acknowledges doing pretty much everything he's been charged with.
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And he has nobody to blame but himself.
For taking that course of action? I suppose so. But his course of action was not wrong, and thanks to that, we now have the details of what the government is doing and how it's doing it (or, for the more ignorant, that it was violating the constitution at all).
I'll give him credit for stealing a bunch of information and then publishing it, especially around the NSA's activities but after that it's all downhill from there.
Copying. Also, I'm not sure what you're expecting from him now. He did what he set out to do. Are you saying that if you do one amazing thing, you must do amazing things forever thereafter or "it's all downhill from there"?
That's the definition of a spy isn't it?
A spy for the people, I gues
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For taking that course of action? I suppose so. But his course of action was not wrong, and thanks to that, we now have the details of what the government is doing and how it's doing it (or, for the more ignorant, that it was violating the constitution at all).
That's where you fall into a hole. It's perfectly legal for the government to spy on us. Why? The laws say it's okay along with executive orders authorizing things with a shadow court involved in rubber stamping it. If you had the regular court system involved, which the EFF and the ACLU have been doing then things progress. It's how the legal system works and until this gets to SCOTUS which I'm afraid will rubber stamp it, the NSA et al. is doing legal work under the cloak of a lot of paperwork coveri
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He admits to the acts but not to the intents. Intent is a big part of criminal culpability. He would also dispute many of the claimed harms done.
I work in Information Security, much of what I do phishing, exploit development, etc would be illegal except for intent and harm. There is no harm because any property I obtain or gain control of is not converted for my use but promptly returned unimpaired. I have no intent to illegally convert anything for my use or disclose any information about your organiza
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Yes, intent is important in charges like Murder and Assault (premeditation and all that).
The core of the charges against Snowden are that he gave classified materials to someone without the appropriate clearance. He is definitely guilty of that.
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"Don't pass unjust laws" where were you when they were being passed? that's the problem with people nowadays they want somebody else to take the blame. Hold your legislators and the courts responsible for the laws we have and look into the mirror as to who put them there.
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No, it isn't; it's 100% unconstitutional.
Until SCOTUS rules on what is, or isn't constitutional then it's still the law. That doesn't change anything.
Even if he did, all that would mean is that the laws are wrong.
So do something about it! It wouldn't the first time in history that laws have been passed that are unjust but that's life. Of course we could live in
a dictatorship and then we'd have less to worry about our liberties while big brother takes care of us.
Maybe reporters are eager to see what he has to say, given his position? Maybe he feels he can convince some people to come to his side in the face of an ever more corrupt government. Our media sure as hell isn't doing their job.
You seem to be assuming that anyone who has a message for others is an attention whore. Stop acting like a religious fundamentalist by telling others what they think. You're not Snowden, so you don't know his motivations, and neither do I. And frankly, it's fucking irrelevant. What matters are the NSA's disgusting activites. That sure doesn't stop people from trying to shift the topic away from the NSA's treasonous behavior to useless speculation about how Snowden is a traitor or a puppet.
Disgusting? strong term there and there's a lot of folks who probably work for the NSA thinking that they're doing the right thing. It's all what
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An unconstitutional law.
Still a law and until it's repealed or deemed unconstitutional by SCOTUS, it's the law. That point can't be argued. You can choose to ignore the law and then of course there's penalties associated with it. The EFF and ACLU have been working cases through the courts but there's procedures involved. Eventually a case
will get in front of them.
I'm doing as much as someone who isn't a charismatic leader of a giant movement can do: Not much, but everything you can think of.
Good for you, now get off Snowden's nutsack and think for a few moments about what's being released and how credible it is. Ask yourself since he's been out of the "
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I wasn't changing the subject, just pointing out that you're a bit fanatical on this subject. You sure you don't have a brown shirt or two in the closet? Just following orders is not the same as a person doing a 9 to 5 at a job making a living. I also pointed out that the current administration views the press and whistle blowers as treasonous entities, something which you blew right on by. So instead of canonizing St. Snowden here you should wake up and smell the cat shit. Most of the crap dumped out
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Re: On come on now Edward (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes. We all remember when Ron Paul said that.
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You got me backwards. Ralph Wiggam, the guy supporting the NSA is the traitor.
LOL. I love Slashdot. If you don't 100% agree with me, then you're a traitor who supports the NSA.
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It is according to the 9th amendment, which gives the people the right to claim the Constitution says anything they want it to say.
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You should look up what Treason means. Because that's not what it means.
I did... per the constitution:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."
Base on that definition, neither are traitors under the constitution.
Per the English dictionary:
"the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the g
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not hero not villain end discussion (Score:2)
aren't we past this by now?
we've debated Snowden's actions ad infinitum
we've mapped the Snowden possible responses...everyone has expressed their opinions on his motivations...we've examined virtually every scenario
IMHO he was duped or blackmailed and is now essentially in jail in Russia...others say 'hero'...or 'traitor'
we know the whole universe of factors that could be combined to make an opinion on Snowden...we know all the possiblities...and have seen someone argue about them here on /.
**it's time we a
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Are you insane? We haven't even figured out if Google is evil or not.
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Are you insane? We haven't even figured out if Google is evil or not.
That's easy to figure out. All it took was ten seconds for a Google search to find the answer. They aren't evil.
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Oh. Thanks.
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"we know the whole universe of factors that could be combined to make an opinion on Snowden...we know all the possiblities..."
Whatever it is you think you know, it better be pretty damn incontrovertible and actionable you'd have to be a fool to make the comment above otherwise. You know a limited part of a picture that was redacted and edited and restated and misunderstood then half lied by NSA/FBI/IRS etc to lack accountability in their responses. Besides the only way this resoves itself is if there are se
is or is not X (Score:2)
you missed my point:
"Snowden is X"
where X is a scenario that explains his behavior (hero, traitor, dupe, blackmail victim, etc, etc)
we've seen all possible variations of X debated here on /. and it's time to move the fuck on
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or he knows what hes talking about. Treason is what the NSA is currently doing by failing to uphold the constitution, specifically the 4th amendment
The NSA has blanket authority to do what they want. You do know they haven't stopped doing a thing. All these investigations are nothing more than a dog and pony show. The NSA is business as usual.
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blanket authority doesn't cover constitutional authority.
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That was kind of my point.
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The NSA has blanket authority to do what they want
Please tell me who authorized the do anything you want authority? That is not how this country works. Sorry if you were fooled into believing that.
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this is hardly in-depth; it's on the level of office gossip.
anyway, these things might have been mentioned in that pile o' data he snagged, you know, the reason you hate him so much? just a thought.
TOM SWIFT AND HIS ELECTRIC RIFLE!!11elleven! (Score:2)
Doesn't necessarily mean it's feasible.
It's easy to squander Other People's Money.
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You're YEARS out of government service and if we're being honest, we're supposed to believe that you personally had in depth first hand technical knowledge of everything the NSA has ever and will ever do. There's two way to look at this. Either your paranoid soaked liar, or, you have a current contact in the NSA and you are bragging about committing treason.
Hold up dude. Snowden has not committed treason, at least if you are talking about the disclosure of classified information without authorization. Where that *could* be treason in some cases, I'm not sure that it is here. That's not to say Snowden wouldn't be found guilty of disclosing classified information and doing grave damage to the national security of the United States if he stood trial, nor does am I claiming he wouldn't find himself making small rocks out of big rocks for a very long time somepl
Re:Snowden's comments at odds with his actions (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you understand what he means? He is saying that if there was some real, genuine change due to his actions he would be willing to return and give evidence in open court, to help with that change, even if it meant a prison sentence due to the letter of the law.
That seems amazingly charitable, considering he should really get a presidential pardon and be welcomed back as the heroic guy who did the right thing to expose law breaking and billions of constitutional violations.
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That seems amazingly charitable, considering he should really get a presidential pardon and be welcomed back as the heroic guy who did the right thing to expose law breaking and billions of constitutional violations.
If the only thing he did was expose the illegal spying being done on Americans, I'd agree with that. But he indiscriminately takes everything he can get his hands on and reveals perfectly legal programs, like this one. "Identifying and blocking foreign threats" is the NSA's job, and why wouldn't that include cyber attacks? What justification does he have for revealing this?
I think we should specifically pardon him for for the relevant whistleblowing, to encourage other people in those positions to do the
Re:Snowden's comments at odds with his actions (Score:5, Insightful)
"Identifying and blocking foreign threats" is the NSA's job
Sure, but that doesn't extend to knocking Syria off the internet [arstechnica.com] or inserting back-doors into encryption standards or failing to report known vulnerabilities and the like. How about recording every single phone call in made in two countries? Some spying on foreign countries is expected and acceptable, but not the lengths the NSA has gone to. Spying on your allies, like Merkel, is definitely something America should be ashamed of and that the German people have a right to know about.
Knowing what is happening and their capabilities is essential for us to re-build the internet to be bulk-surveillance proof. There is zero chance of the NSA and GCHQ stopping what they are doing, so the only solution is technological.
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who
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He gave the data to journalists to reveal. They have the freedom of the press and the legal and moral grounds to decide what is right to release. If you haven't figured out that much of this, i would suggest walking away from the conversation.
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he hasn't actually leaked anything. he gave all the docs he stole to greenwald
"I didn't actually steal that Cadillac, I just took it from the owner's driveway and drove it to the chop shop and they stole it." Sorry, but "gave all the docs" to someone who isn't supposed to have them is leaking.
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Well, the statement is a bit less impressive if you consider that he knows that there is exactly no chance in hell that this administration (or any the US would be getting any time soon) would or could change anything.
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I imagine eventually he will be able to get to a friendly country that will protect him and live the rest of his life there. Iceland would be a good bet, or possibly Germany if he can wrangle that. The only thing keeping him in Russia is the difficulty of travelling.
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Do you honestly think Edward Snowden will ever (willingly) set foot on U.S. soil again? Or live a long, healthy life?
He exposed and humiliated the United States intelligence apparatus in front of the world, and possibly compromised its ability to gather signals intelligence on several near-peer nations.
Forget a presidential pardon, he'll be lucky to live another five years without mysteriously dying in a hit and run car accident. If Putin's FSB agents would brazenly murder an expat Russian oligarch billio
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I doubt Snowden will ever go back to the US, but fortunately there are much nicer places to live.
I think his life is probably safe though, because if he dies other will release all the previously withheld and redacted documents he leaked. It's a pretty good insurance policy.
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Whatever happens to him next is largely up to him, but let's be clear: continuing to seek "asylum" from the US, in Russia, given recent events, only hurts any case he might make about his motivations, and those motivations are the one and only thing with any potential at all to exonerate him.
IMHO, Snowden is now adrift in the events and has zero real control. He's literally stuck between the rock (USA) and the hard place (Russia). What's going to happen next is that Putin will use him for as long as it is to his advantage. As soon as there is no more reason for Putin to keep him, then this whole story will quickly end and Snowden will find himself in handcuffs on his way to the USA. In the mean time, Snowden is stuck trying to remain valuable, which is why he's inventing things to keep his n
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OK, OK.. LOL
I'll try to watch my usage closer..
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Typical conservative knee-jerk selfish ego-centric reaction right here.
What is wrong with serving one's own country and being concerned when a shadowy agency deploys a digital net over everything?
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What does it have to do with his generation (born 1983, so I guess borderline Millennial)? People have been doing similar things for at least the two generations prior to his. Did you forget the '60s?
Re:Mark my words (Score:5, Informative)
Newsflash! Slashdot already has been targeted by NSA!!
Don't take my word for it: Link 1 [ibtimes.com] and Link 2 [techdirt.com].
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I've noticed quite a few security service shill posts lately too. Even the City of London Police have been trying out a few poorly executed ops on stories about them.
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If it means the end of humanity, at least something good came out of that NSA crap.
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What if it's a triple whammy (Score:3)
Left in place to advance and get to policy setting, overview or trusted command like level decades later without ever been noticed.
Walking in with bulk material for free and having another nation just accept it is a trap many nations have fallen for.
Any material offered might have spy bait mixed in it by default or be pre sorted to fool a nations own staff at different security levels. A