Chinese Government Probes Microsoft For Breaches of Monopoly Law 110
DroidJason1 writes The Chinese government is investigating Microsoft for possible breaches of anti-monopoly laws, following a series of surprise visits to Redmond's offices in cities across China on Monday. These surprise visits were part of China's ongoing investigation [warning: WSJ paywall], and were based on security complaints about Microsoft's Windows operating system and Office productivity suite. Results from an earlier inspection apparently were not enough to clear Microsoft of suspicion of anti-competitive behavior. Microsoft's alleged anti-monopoly behavior is a criminal matter, so if found guilty, the software giant could face steep fines as well as other sanctions.
Pot - Kettle (Score:4, Funny)
This is like being accused of overeating by the world's biggest fat man.
Queen of Hearts (Score:2)
`May it please your Majesty,' said Two, in a very humble tone, going down on one knee as he spoke, `we were trying--'
`I see!' said the Queen, who had meanwhile been examining the roses. `Off with their heads!'
Security (Score:2)
This is like being accused of overeating by the world's biggest fat man.
Yes, it is. It is about security rather than monopoly. Both discouraging Chinese citizens from using Microsoft (this lets state media trash talk them for a little while) and trying to get their hands on source code or other references to flaws in the OS.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Huawei, ZTE, or Red Flag linux are all fine as 'monopolies',
Except that none of these are monopolies. In fact, they are not even market leaders.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
If you steal the product you sell, then you aren't a monopoly.
I guess Microsoft has nothing to fear in that case.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't get it, how are any of those companies monopolies or behaving monopolistically? certainly funny that you include a niche, even in china, linux distro there.
but MS is kind of fucked here. if they hired chinese to run the business then sure, they used dirty tactics to keep making money, because that's "business" for them and probably never occurred to them to not bribe someone against using red flag linux vs. a ms product.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll bet the Chinese government took a page from the EU and figured out it could levy whatever the hell sort of fines it wants against these tech giants, and they'll probably just eat it as a part of the cost of doing business. That is, so long as they don't fine them more than it's worthwhile to do business there, because of course, said company would simply say "screw you" and leave. They figured that a charge of "Microsoft is a monopoly!" would work just fine, since that's been bandied about in the West so much already. You watch - I wouldn't be surprised if MS is going to get a nice, hefty fine levied against them, but probably not so much that they'll contemplate pulling out of China's market completely. Nothing like a government-sponsored extortion racket.
The other possibility is, like the linked article implies, that this is part of the government's push for technological self-reliance, and a move to start pushing their own operating systems and squeeze MS out of the picture. We've seen that with Google pretty clearly already. Or, maybe it's a bit of both - a way to squeeze a bit more cash out of the tech giants before eventually pushing them out altogether.
Hard to say, really. China is a mystery wrapped in an enigma to most westerners like myself.
Re: (Score:2)
The EU didn't just "levy" a fine, Microsoft were found guilty in a court of law and spent years appealing and then refusing to comply with the judgement leading to their fine being massively increased.
Re: (Score:2)
I perhaps worded it poorly, as I didn't mean to imply the EU judgement was necessarily without merit. Rather, I'm simply implying that the Chinese government may have been looking at the end result of Microsoft's and Google's cases (i.e. paying large fines to the EU), and could have seen that as a lucrative opportunity, either economically, politically, or both.
Re: So... (Score:1, Insightful)
Good. I don't see why the USA should have a monopoly on fining companies. You have fined European banks billions and let your own banks off the hook for pennies. I hope China fine your asses off. Hyprocrites.
Re: (Score:2)
> You have fined European banks billions and let your own banks off the hook for pennies.
Correction: our government has fined European banks and handed many domestic banks billions. o.O
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
I don't get it, how are any of those companies monopolies or behaving monopolistically? certainly funny that you include a niche, even in china, linux distro there.
but MS is kind of fucked here. if they hired chinese to run the business then sure, they used dirty tactics to keep making money, because that's "business" for them and probably never occurred to them to not bribe someone against using red flag linux vs. a ms product.
Microsoft never had problems using dirty tactics, they did that very well on 100% american hands. You sound kinda racist.
Re: (Score:2)
Like many nations, best to go with your own staff, code, hardware and software long term. Too many eyes with the costly imports.
So China is going to do (Score:5, Insightful)
what the DOJ failed to do.
Re: (Score:1)
You mean a public shakedown?
Re: (Score:3)
Well not quite. The DOJ proposed splitting microsoft in half. Chinas solution to corruption tends to involve ventilating the CEOs brain with lead, 15 minutes after the judge declares "Fuck this guy!".
The only one who seemed to be advocating caping bill G here was probably ESR, because ESR is kind of a mentalist (RMS doesnt do guns)
Re:So China is going to do (Score:5, Funny)
RMS doesn't do guns because only one or two are open-source, and he's seen the code and knows they're shitty.
Re: (Score:2)
RMS doesn't do guns because only one or two are open-source, and he's seen the code and knows they're shitty.
The 1911 is Open Source today, you can literally download blueprints for every part of the weapon. It's one of the best-loved and best-performing firearms of all time. It does require the use of appropriate ammunition, but the openness of the design has permitted developers to adapt it to several different types.
Re: (Score:2)
So, non-free dependencies? Not on my watch!
Re: (Score:2)
So, non-free dependencies? Not on my watch!
The specifications for the required ammunition are well-known. The stuff is harder to make than the firearm, however. For that to differ you'll have to use something substantially higher- or lower-tech, e.g. caseless or black powder. And caseless ammo is only easier to produce if you disregard the difficulty of producing a practical propellant.
Re:So China is going to do (Score:5, Insightful)
The DOJ did not fail to convict Microsoft of being an illegal monopoly, they failed to _PUNISH_ them after they were found guilty. Microsoft paid lobbyists to convince congress that breaking them apart (as was done with AT&T) would cause further economic collapse. Yeah yeah, so much for the separation of powers...
It was not just the DOJ that failed to punish MS. Several states had similar successful trials where MS was found guilty, and the payout from MS was "free MS products for Education and Government" for N years ( in some cases 5 years ). I wrote numerous articles and papers back then explaining how this was not a punishment, but obviously a method of further entrenching their monopoly.
Re: (Score:3)
The trial phase of Microsoft was during the Clinton Administration. The Penalty phase took place during the Bush Admin and the US attorney was changed by the president. The new attorney threw out all the possible mitigation the previous US attorney had developed.
Why Microsoft was never effectively punished should be obvious.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sorry to be the grammar Nazi... (Score:5, Insightful)
following a series of surprise visits to Redmond's offices in cities across China on Monday
While I understand that this is metonymy, it's confusing as hell because at first read "Redmond's offices" == "Microsoft's offices in Redmond."
Re: (Score:3)
Agreed. I suspect they thought they were being clever in using it to refer to them in this context, but it's only a clever turn of phrase until it gets in the way of understanding it easily.
Re: (Score:2)
Y'arr, synecdoche be a harsh mistress.
Re: (Score:1)
I must be one of those grammar Nazi's too, because I laughed at this joke.
Re: (Score:3)
Technically you're style Nazi. Figures of speech aren't covered by grammar.
Re: (Score:1)
Monopoly Claims Are Only A Cover Story (Score:5, Insightful)
Unsurprisingly, the monopoly claims are only a cover story for other policy issues with China. As TFA even points out:
Unfortunately for Microsoft, they likely would have been better off actually breaking the law, because at least that would result in a trial over the truth (and some ill-gotten gains in the process). Instead, because this is a political maneuver by the Chinese, Microsoft is being used as a scapegoat here. Any resulting punishment for Microsoft will be based on the state of Sino-American relations and whether China wants to harm the US by proxy. Which given how things currently stand, MS is looking rather screwed.
Re:Monopoly Claims Are Only A Cover Story (Score:4, Insightful)
...
Unfortunately for Microsoft, they likely would have been better off actually breaking the law, because at least that would result in a trial over the truth (and some ill-gotten gains in the process). Instead, because this is a political maneuver by the Chinese, Microsoft is being used as a scapegoat here. Any resulting punishment for Microsoft will be based on the state of Sino-American relations and whether China wants to harm the US by proxy. Which given how things currently stand, MS is looking rather screwed.
And most of us here feel really bad for MS getting fucked over, after they've fucked over so many others.
I don't believe in karma, but if I did, this is a prime example of karma.
Re: (Score:2)
Only after a prolonged (or possibly multi-pronged) anal probing.
Re: (Score:2)
Since the US is run by companies and 3-letter agencies I would not call it exactly "by proxy".
Screwing MS may be a Good Thing(tm) ! (Score:2)
MS is looking rather screwed
As no one has yet be able to screw MS since its inception, and as MS has screwed so many others throughout its own history --- it may be a good thing that MS finally getting that BIG SCREW that it so deserves !
Re: (Score:2)
In my experience, one should always read the tea leaves or die. The more someone has to lose the better the intelligence gathering should be. As big as Microsofts interests are in China, Microsoft should have had fair warning that this was to happen. Hardly anything is really a secret. To me, the lose proposition is that they did not seem fit to do anything about it before it happened.
And yes, I am aware of all the complications of doing the job. Thats what makes it special. And inexcusable for Microsoft. K
Re: (Score:1)
So you're saying Microsoft needs to play a more political game, keep an eye on government, and be prepared to respond and manipulate as needed? You're saying they've not done a 'good enough' job of that in China?
How disappointing.
Re: (Score:2)
If the encryption is weak and is shared with a few govs its better for China to walk away from all tame US products and start again withe their own code and software solutions.
Re:Monopoly Claims Are Only A Cover Story (Score:4, Interesting)
Unfortunately for Microsoft, they likely would have been better off actually breaking the law,
Who says they didn't? Your quote from the chamber of commerce (a business lobbying group, wonder where their interests lie) seems to imply they are using anti-monopoly laws to encourage competition, isn't that kind of the point?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Monopoly Claims Are Only A Cover Story (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
Probably payback for the U.S. raking Chinese company Huawei over the coals.
In case you've forgotten, a congressional committee accused Huawei of installing spyware into the equipment it was selling, and even hauled the company president into the Capitol, forcing him to give testimony. Uselessly, of course, as that was a hanging committee, and there was no way the poor guy could prove his innocence. It's impossible to prove a negative. There was an enormous media circus, totally humiliating the company.
Wo
Anti-monopoly behavior? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Why wouldn't it? China's been slowiy trialing with freeing up the market bit by bit. Even for a autocratic single-party system, they understand they cannot let any single organization, whether they're private or state-owned to be in complete control.
Have you heard of the Communist Party of China?
Re: (Score:2)
Why wouldn't it? China's been slowiy trialing with freeing up the market bit by bit. Even for a autocratic single-party system, they understand they cannot let any single organization, whether they're private or state-owned to be in complete control.
Have you heard of the Communist Party of China?
Have you studied how China actually works rather than this nightmare version that economists who haven't even been to China are scaring you with?
Re: (Score:2)
It is not about the NSA, it is about Windows XP. Windows XP (the pirated version) dominates the market. Microsoft has withdrawn support, which leaves China in a bit of a pickle. I am sure this will all go away if Microsoft would just start supporting XP again or China bought a couple of million of Windows 8 licenses.
So.. who is microsoft competing with? (Score:1)
Nothing can stop the government or the people to switch to Linux or Mac OS. How is Microsoft Anti competitive here? Because they don't allow others to make copy of their OS? I would think that's normal, to protect your IP.
China is obviously just looking to steal data from Microsoft here.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not the OS, it's the closed office file formats you insensitive dolt!
Re: (Score:2)
Did you follow how DOCX came to be "standardized"? Specifically the scandalous way they manipulated the ISO standards process?
How about the parts of the standard that say things like "Do it like Office 9x does" without defining how that is? A "standard" that is not fully defined and which Microsoft itself has yet to fully and compliantly implement.
Then there are other things like MS coming up with their own way to define leap years which results in disagreement with the existing international standards fo
Re:The Chinese are playing... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The Chinese are playing... (Score:4, Insightful)
Whoever modded this insightful is an idiot.
The EU takes a very dim view on abusive companies, local or foreign. Whining because the company is American just means you get to whine twice. Once because the evil Europeans are harming the benevolent rich american companies and once more because you have shitty phone contracts that massively suck, unlike in the EU, where they dealt with those *local* companies.
So ? (Score:3, Funny)
So all six people in China who purchased software from Microsoft get a full refund and an apology?
Sounds like a 'nothing to see here' storey to me.
Chinese Government Probes Microsoft For Breaches.. (Score:2)
... read this and thought this was a hacking-related article
By Monopoly Do they Mean... (Score:1)
I'm no Microsoft fan, but this is what bothering to do business with China gets us. China with its essentially a rigged economy based on something close to slave labor. The only way to compete economically with that is to become that. The cheap shit at Walmart just ain't worth it.
Have you actually been to China? (Score:3, Informative)
China with its essentially a rigged economy based on something close to slave labor.
And you know this how exactly? I've actually been to China whereas you pretty clearly have not. Slave labor? 'Fraid not. China has a lot of people and so thanks to supply and demand, wages are relatively low there. (but rising fast) Yes the Chinese government has a hand in everything but there are plenty of places in the US and EU economies where free trade does not exist and the government is heavily involved. Agriculture, weapons manufacturing, Boeing/Airbus, satellites, automobiles, and many more
Re: (Score:1)
Slave labor? 'Fraid not.
The Chinese government itself literally operates labor camps where criminals are forced to produce consumer goods.
Your argument would be more credible
You clearly do not decide who is credible when you say that slave labor is not slave labor.
Re: (Score:2)
You do realise the US does exactly this as well, and the prisons are corporations, and America even has more prisoners.
And? I didn't say the US didn't have any of these elements. I said that China did.
Posting ac as I spent all my mod points before reading this complete rubbish.
I note you didn't actually disagree with me. Obviously it isn't complete rubbish.
Re: (Score:2)
You didnt just say China had these elements you, very stupidly, supported the claim that China's economy is based on slave labour.
But it in fact is; it's not all obvious. Being forced to work is slavery even if you get paid, because you're not choosing the terms of your employment. It's like being raped and then having your rapist throw you a few currency units.
Re: (Score:1)
You do realise the US does exactly this as well, and the prisons are corporations, and America even has more prisoners.
This is rubbish. China has more slaves than US has prisoners.
The US has very few prisons which operate as factories. Nearly all that do, pay wages. These prisons are usually more desirable for prisoners because it allows them learn skills and to bank money while incarcerated. China just has forced labor, no pay. They call it "re-education".
Re: (Score:1)
And you know this how exactly?
There are a lot of sources. The one is quite credible credible: http://www.globalslaveryindex.... [globalslaveryindex.org]
The global slavery index only includes people that are known to be slaves. This doesn't include the mass amounts of dormitory employees that, due to economic conditions manufactured by the government, work for nearly nothing and can't afford to live outside their factory camps.
Your argument would be more credible if the US and EU didn't have manufacturing sectors equal to or larger than China's manufacturing sector.
So you are saying that slave labor is OK because China's economy isn't as big as the US and EU?
I have a stamping press in my plant for making wire leads. Operating this press requires some of skilled labor to set up and then it is all automated. No amount of cheap labor from China can undercut us on price, we're fast and we can pay our people good wages too.
Have you been to China and seen what tho
Meanwhile in the US (Score:2)
Bet Google is glad they got out of China years ago (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, anyone who does business in China should come to expect this. Stories abound about how Chinese companies "compete" with foreign companies in China: you wake up one day and find out half your manufacturing and IT infrastructure is "missing", some of which returns in a few weeks, and then three months later a new, Chinese-owned factory opens up down the street, making products that look exactly like yours minus the brand names and serial numbers, which just happen to have great contacts with the Chinese government so that factory ends up with all the lucrative government and commercial contracts while your company just continues to bleed money on its "China strategy".
This is just the next step, for companies like Microsoft and Apple that rely on their brand to sell product despite having government-owned knockoffs everywhere. A foreign company managing to actually compete with an honest Chinese company? Why, they must be cheating. And we will find cheating, whether or not it exists, and take what's rightfully ours, that is, anything that ever touches Chinese soil.
karma again (Score:2, Insightful)
China is doing what the west did in its day. E.g. if the orient had valuable plants we would sneak them out and grow them ourselves; if the French had movie technology we'd copy it and build our own industry. Of course these days we would NEVER take another person's secrets, and NEVER have unequal trade practices. /sarcasm
How much can Microsoft lose? (Score:2)
Do they make a lot of profits from China? With all the piracy and all, their offices in China might be more for symbolic presence than because they're making money in that country.
Thanks for the "paywall" warning (Score:2)
Finally! (Score:2)
Will Microsoft Executives Be Shot? (Score:1)
China is one of the few countries that send convicted corrupt business executives to the firing squad.
This could be interesting.