Federal Court Pulls Plug On Porn Copyright Shakedown 136
netbuzz writes: "The Electronic Frontier Foundation is calling it a 'crushing blow for copyright trolls.' A federal appeals court today has for the first time ruled against what critics call a shakedown scheme aimed at pornography downloaders and practiced by the likes of AF Holdings, an arm of notorious copyright troll Prenda Law. The United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit called the lawsuit 'a quintessential example of Prenda Law's modus operandi' in reversing a lower court ruling that would have forced a half-dozen ISPs to identify account holders associated with 1,058 IP addresses."
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Wow, you Republicans are getting more brazen. Creating a system where the poor can't afford to sue because they may have to pay for the other guy's legal costs means that only the rich would be able to afford to defend themselves. The legal system would become instead of 80% biased for the Republicans like we have now to 100% against the normal people. That is a horrible idea.
Re:The US needs a loser-pays legal system (Score:4, Interesting)
Creating a system where the poor can't afford to sue because they may have to pay for the other guy's legal costs means that only the rich would be able to afford to defend themselves.
That's already true, so lets make life better for most instead of none (legally speaking).
Well ,unless you really love lawyers who benefit most from the "sue everyone and see what sticks" approach.
Re:The US needs a loser-pays legal system (Score:5, Insightful)
The current system sucks, but "loser pays" is even worse because it assumes that the person who is "wrong" is the person who always loses, and that simply is not the case.
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The current system sucks, but "loser pays" is even worse because it assumes that the person who is "wrong" is the person who always loses, and that simply is not the case.
If you can't make the basic assumption that the person in the wrong is the one who loses then the system is completely broken and needs to be reformed until
you CAN safely make that assumption. Saying that loser-pay is a bad idea because the system is completely broken doesn't really support your argument.
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I agree that the first order effects should assume that the system generally works, but it is also important to consider second order effects of the inevitable failures that will occur, and whether the consequences of those failures are acceptable.
However, even the secondary effects of a loser pays system aren't too bad. It would add some Type I error for a (hopefully much larger) reduction in Type II error, which probably makes the system a little better overall.
Re:The US needs a loser-pays legal system (Score:5, Informative)
The current system (in U.S. District courts) *is* loser pays (see U.S. F.R.Civ.P. rule 54(d)).
Where the federal courts differ from most "loser pays" systems is that evidence of offers to settle ahead of a trial is generally excluded as a matter of policy.
Pretty much no loser-pays system (and that includes federal courts and several private law systems in the various states) actually requires that the loser *always* pays the full costs of the other side *in all circumstances*; wide latitudes are given to the courts to assess costs in a way it feels is just, or appropriate to the behaviour of the parties, etc. U.S. district courts have narrower latitude than both, owing in part to statute.
Generally speaking, if no offers to settle out of court are made (and thus also not rejected), then the loser generally is assessed costs unless it would be unjust to do so, thus "loser pays". However, offers to settle out of court are normal and even in district courts are encouraged to avoid unnecessary court costs and time dealing with controversies which can be worked out by the litigating parties outside of court.
In most loser-pays systems costs are assessed against parties who should have ended litigation sooner. For example under most systems that use a regulated offer along the lines of the Calderbank rules (this is definitely untrue of many state systems and U.S. district courts, but is true in some states, such as Florida), a winning party that was made an offer to settle out of court that it rejected and subsequently did not beat in court is usually assessed at least some proportion of the offeror's costs after that point, even if the offeror is ultimately the losing party. That is, even though the party won, it could have achieved the same result with fewer costs to the parties and the courts, and should therefore bear some of those avoidable costs. There are often codified forms of offer which make it even more clear that refusing a well-pitched offer could be expensive (as in Part 36 of the Civil Procedure Rules (England and Wales)) for a party that does not subsequently better it.
Additionally, most systems allow the parties to agree on how to split costs in order to avoid further litigation on who should pay which costs; the motions under F.R.Civ.P rule 54(d)(1)&(2) are frequently consent motions agreed between the parties after judgement.
http://www.nlrg.com/public-law... [nlrg.com]
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A far better system: loser pays his opponent the lesser of the two side's legal costs. This way, the little guy can still sue the mega-corp, as he's never on the hook for more than double his own legal costs.
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And if the lawyer volunteers his/her time, just to spite the mega-corp?
If a pro-bono lawyer defeats the legal department of a mega-corp, then I would say that the it is extremely likely that justice has been done. I am deriving this conclusion from the fact that the pro-bono lawyer must have had such an airtight case that no amount of money blown on high-priced corporate lawyers could scuttle the case or indefinitely delay the judgement.
Re:The US needs a loser-pays legal system (Score:5, Interesting)
Why not make the losing plaintiffs the lesser of the 2 legal bills? Big corp sues small guy. Small guy wins. Big corp pays his costs.
Small guy sues big corp. Small guy loses. Small guy pays the equivalent of his legal bills to the big corp.
That way, overspending isn't covered.
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Why not make the losing plaintiffs the lesser of the 2 legal bills? Big corp sues small guy. Small guy wins. Big corp pays his costs.
Small guy sues big corp. Small guy loses. Small guy pays the equivalent of his legal bills to the big corp.
That way, overspending isn't covered.
So, BigMegaCorp fucks you over and you sue them. They can afford to throw more lawyers at you and you lose. This happens. A lot.
It isn't bad enough that BigMegaCorp fucked you, now you get to pay extra for getting fucked.
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His proposal would double your court costs in case of a loss.
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He's not talking about "limiting liability" at all - he's talking about getting reimbursed for court costs. Today, if you lose a case that is not deemed frivolous, you are usually out just your own court costs. Under "loser pays", you would be out court costs x 2. It's better than just "loser pays", but it would still pretty much kill off contingency I would think.
Re:The US needs a loser-pays legal system (Score:5, Interesting)
Complicated by staff lawyers (Score:2)
This would be made complicated by staff lawyers - many larger companies have staffs of lawyers in house.
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Except that you'd have to pay to set up the pool in the first place. Most of the costs come from miscellaneous stuff. Essentiallly just about any piece of paperwork filed with the courts costs a fee, it's the only way most courts in the US are funded. So the small guy could be out of money even before the courts can decide on the amount of the pool.
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All I'm saying is I only hire lawyers who buy me Chinese food every day!
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George Sr.: Thank you for coming down on Christmas Eve.
Barry: Oh it's like any other day except that I bill double.
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I have an even better idea. We could all be required by law to pay an equal amount into a pool that is then used to pay all lawyers. The government will hire a few private contractors to manage who pays in and who gets paid.
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Re:The US needs a loser-pays legal system (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow, you Republicans are getting more brazen. Creating a system where the poor can't afford to sue because they may have to pay for the other guy's legal costs means that only the rich would be able to afford to defend themselves. The legal system would become instead of 80% biased for the Republicans like we have now to 100% against the normal people. That is a horrible idea.
Wow, Talk about knee-jerk smears.
How the hell is holding lawyers accountable for this kind of crap REPUBLICAN???
You want your little guy to have the ability to sue? Exempt class-action suits from loser-pays, or, better yet, make the plaintiff's LAW FIRM pay in class-action suits, or maybe even in suits with contingency-based fees.
Capcha: slither. Quite appropriate when responding to someone defending lawyer's ability to win huge fees no matter what the outcome of the case is.
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I like the way he contrasts "Republicans" with "normal people". Should we wear gold stars now, so the normal people can know an keep their distance?
Republicans are about half the country, and not especially the richer half. It's about values, not about net worth.
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Interesting that you somehow want to penalise lawyers for doing a job that they are requested to do. Perhaps we should get rid of lawyers altogether? Take estate agents/realtors and door to door salesmen as well. And parking enforcement officers. And other people who are annoying despite having a function that could be beneficial to society...
Lawyers do not provide guarantees but they do frequently take on a case at a risk of not being paid which is the quid pro quo for the cases that are successful.
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YOU ARE SQUEALING LIKE A STUCK PIG BECAUSE THE ACCUSATION IS TRUE.
(In normal conversational "voice" mode.) Let's look at a real world example. I know this is painful for you, because the truth hurts. It hurts even more when you have to leave Republican fantasy land, which you almost never do.
Let's take the very powerful and influential lobbying group, the US Chamber of Commerce. This is what I found when I asked Mr. Google the search terms "US Chamber Republican Democr
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The TLA supports far more Democrats than Republicans but everything the TLA and its members do is the fault of the Republicans. That is a prime example of liberal logic right there.
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That's his point. Prenda lost because someone actually could afford to defend.
This is a problem that must be fixed ASAP. Putting other issues in front of holy making of the profit is communism.
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Wow, you Republicans are getting more brazen. Creating a system where the poor can't afford to sue because they may have to pay for the other guy's legal costs means that only the rich would be able to afford to defend themselves.
But the poor would only have to pay if they LOSE. If they have a legit lawsuit, that wouldn't be an issue.
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You've obviously never had to pay for a lawyer for anything. The system is rigged that whoever wins or loses in a trial, the lawyers always get paid.
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Wow, you Republicans are getting more brazen...The legal system would become instead of 80% biased for the Republicans...
Blaming "loser pay" advocacy on political affiliation shows you haven't done your homework [npr.org].
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Wow, you Republicans are getting more brazen. Creating a system where the poor can't afford to sue because they may have to pay for the other guy's legal costs means that only the rich would be able to afford to defend themselves. The legal system would become instead of 80% biased for the Republicans like we have now to 100% against the normal people. That is a horrible idea.
Its already 100% biased against the poor. We just want all lawyers to work probono.
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Have to agree. At least the communists had a philosophically consistent political platform. It may have been based on a failed belief system (dialectic materialism) that had no basis in reality but at least it flowed fairly consistently from there. Democrats on the other hand seem to only be concerned with getting re-elected and watching out for the causes supported by their left wing, limousine liberal benefactors. Whitness Harry Reid's crass behavior when it came to patent reform, the recent "crackdow
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Yeah, you sue MegaCorp, Inc. because you slipped on their slippery floor, and *you* pay for their 15 lawyer defense team should you loose...
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Or maybe take a bit of personal responsibility and notice the wet, slippery floor and avoid it. Do you also sue God or Mother Nature for the ice and rain?
Re:The US needs a loser-pays legal system (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem becomes: Pay how much? A set standard rate regardless of what the loser actually paid their attorney? If I bring a lawsuit against a large corporation with an internal team of lawyers, how do I know much it really cost them to litigate? And even if I 'win' against a guy with no money, so what? And when is someone considered a 'loser', since there are so many levels of appeal?
I think the bigger problem with our legal system is that it even requires a lawyer to handle the most basic of procedures. That shows that the legal system has just become too complex to be useful. But since the legal system is ruled by lawyers (on all sides of the equation), there is little incentive for them to make the system more simplified and easy to access for the average person.
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The defedant always has the option of counter-suing the plantif. They can also file a complaint to the local bar association asserting barratry against the plantif's lawyers.
Cheers,
Dave
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I stay fit and will probably get a concealed carry permit at some point. Works for me. I also avoid bad neighborhoods.
Translation for the current discussion: If you're a corporation, straighten up and fly right. The best way to avoid being sued is to not do anything that would attract a law suit. Likewise, maintain/retain a legal team that is notoriously good (IBM and MoFo come to mind: the Nazgul eviserated the SCO legal team in a way that sends a loud and clear message of "don't mess with my client").
Re:Judges are People (pervs) Too (Score:5, Informative)
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I doubt they kept any records of porn rentals in the 1950s.
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Not that a single fuck should have been given even if he rented Midget Transexual Extreme BDSM Gangbang IV every other day. It's ad hominem and completely irrelevant what he watches in his spare time.
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This isn't RIAA/MPAA. It's the Prendateers.
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Can this be used as precedent to dismiss all the pending RIAA and MPAA lawsuits? What about reversing past suits whose victims are already in the body count?
Don't I wish.
Wait, man! (Score:1)
I was just torrenting Game of Bones: Winter is Cumming for the articles........?
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It wasn't inserted it was pulled!
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Most slashdot readers won't like what I have to say, so I guess I'm hoping that the parent AC comes back to look at any replies to his/her post.
Let's start with this proposition: if there were no fear of having copyright enforced, copyright holders would make less money due to the virtual ubiquitous availability of free copyrighted material on the Internets. Taking the position(s) that a copyright shouldn't exist, or that statutory damages are wrong/inflated, or that copyright term is too long, or that ind
Sounds like... (Score:3)
I ignored them (Score:1)
They used to send twenty to thirty emails to support a month. They would call and tell me I was required to deliver them to our customers. I told them fine as long as they were willing to pay fifty dollars a truck roll we would hand deliver their emails to our customers. They never called back.
Why copyright for porn? (Score:2)
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Again, I am not American but because of this my perception is that it is not everywhere legal in the USA.
I
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uh, none of those movies are even close to obscene by today's legal standards. yes, the MPAA's raters may have problems with them, but that's a different issue having nothing to do with copyright protection or legal status.
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by today's legal standards
It sounds like he was explicitly referring to the climate in which they originally came out.
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they were all released in the late 90s or 2000s, when the "climate" for legal obscenity was the same as now.
So must have been quite the number (Score:2)
of poiticians that were in possesion of some porn or maybe just one powerfull one?
Unify the two tracks of our legal system (Score:2)
Instead of loser pays or, worse, having the government decide on damage caps, I would eliminate the special lawyer-enriching set of privileges the civil legal system enjoys by making it operate by the same stringent rules as criminal procedure. I would put civil plaintiffs in the same legal position as criminal prosecutors: they would have to win cases on a unanimous jury vote, rather than a majority, and using a 'beyond a reasonable doubt' evidence standard, rather than 'preponderance of evidence'. The jun
Re:Unify the two tracks of our legal system (Score:5, Interesting)
It's an interesting idea, but if you raise the evidentiary bar you raise the cost of litigating civil cases. The higher cost would probably also increase damage awards, necessary for individual plaintiffs to pursue cases with more rigorous evidence requirements. You could actually end up making it more lucrative for trial lawyers by increasing the total amount they receive or cause them to increase the percentage of settlement monies they claim, which also impacts plaintiffs who would obtain less relief through smaller net judgements after legal fees.
There's also the chilling effect it could have on individual civil plaintiffs -- if the evidentiary standard is higher, many people may be discouraged from seeking relief in the courts because they would be even more unable to compete against deep-pocketed adversaries.
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Both of these outcomes were exactly my intent. Higher costs would discourage junk suits, and so would a higher evidentiary standard. Everybody wins, because economic progress - not to mention the court system itself - would no longer be barred by a swarm of no-account lottery players. If this means larger awards for solid cases, this would not be a bad outcome either. It would be an incentive to build quality cases.
Which costs more: larger payouts for a small number of well-proven torts, or large numbers of
voir dire is the problem (Score:1)
The problem is 2 fold. 1) the law is made to be as complex as possible so the lawyers can talk about small points of the issues.
2) Voir Dire - Jury Selection - is designed to get the stupidest dozen people in the county onto the jury. If you know anything about the issues involved, you are out.
If you have any kind technical knowledge or skill at understanding complex issues, you are out. The lawyers want it to be about who has the best law team.
Jury select should be only a few questions - Do you know thes
A little late, but welcome (Score:2)
An ingrate might bemoan the Court's failure to address the key underlying fallacy in the "John Doe" cases, that because someone pays the bill for an internet account that automatically makes them a copyright infringer; but who's complaining over that slight omission?
A malcontent like myself might be a litt
Nonliteral similarity (Score:2)
copyright is, by definition, narrow. If no one actually copied the artistic work attached to the copyright, then there's no infringement.
It might not be as narrow as one might naively think, especially when the copyright-owning plaintiff claims nonliteral similarity [wikipedia.org].