Internet Shutdown Adds To Venezuela's Woes 194
Slashgear reports that many state-run internet links in Venezuela have been shut down by that country's government, as censorship efforts there step up along with widespread turmoil, partly in the form of widespread anti-government protests. The article begins: "Don’t expect one whole heck of a lot of tweets coming out of Venezuela in the immediate future as President Nicolas Maduro’s government has shut down the internet and select TV channels. Having shut down Twitter access for the area this past week, Venezuela’s state-run ISP CANTV has been cut in areas such as San Cristobal. This area is a regional capital in the west of the country and CANTV controls the vast majority of internet connectivity in the area. The Electronic Frontier Foundation made note that Venezuelans working with several different ISPs lost all connectivity on Thursday of this past week. Users lost connectivity to the major content delivery network Edgecast and the IP address which provides access to Twitter’s image hosting service while another block stopped Venezuelan access to the text-based site Pastebin."
This is true (Score:5, Informative)
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How are you using twitter if you don't have internet access?
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How is it that Maduro and his allies can continue to persist with economic policies so patently stupid that even an undergraduate student of economics at any American or European university can predict and explain their inevitable failures? I mean bare supermarket shelves in a country with some of the largest oil reserves in the Southern Hemisphere? That's humiliating. How can Maduro possibly explain this with a straight face other than to admit that currency controls and confiscation of private property fo
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Because those economic policies are dictated by different premises. Not "maximise the profit for the big companies and their managers" but "maximise the living standard for the poor". Not everyone likes that of course, perhaps he has underestimated the way the rich and the US are trying to sabotage his policy.
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And whose fault are those empty shelves? The US and the powerfull rich in Venezuele are actively sabotaging the country. Kilobug explains it nicely here: http://yro.slashdot.org/commen... [slashdot.org]
And for other examples, look at the economic blockade of Cuba by the US. The country is not threatening at all to the US but they have a different economic religion than the US has so the regime has to go.
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Clearly "the rich" should pile more goods onto those shelves to be sold at a loss. If they refuse, then soldiers should point guns at them to force them to do so. If entities from outside the country subsequently refuse to continue shipping in goods, after all the "rich" people's money is gone, clearly the UN will have to be empowered to force these outside companies to ship more goods, at a loss, into Venezuela.
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he has underestimated the way the rich and the US are trying to sabotage his policy.
Of course it's somebody else's fault, preferably the US. I mean, it's just not possible that Chavez and then Maduro were running a terribly unsustainable economic model where they got very popular by subsidizing consumer goods with massive oil profits and then as soon as oil prices went down the country was exposed to the real economic world, is it?
Here's a pretty good explanation of the situation economically [forbes.com].
Re: This is true (Score:3)
Because this sort of politics is not based on using rational understanding of the world to make good governmental decisions to achieve some goal, it's based on group dynamics. Look at how the US and 'saboteurs' are blamed for everything, and how people are prepared to attack others for mere membership or association with the other group. It's about orchestrating an us and a them, creating insiders to fight and to hate for you to defend your tribe, so the powerful can keep themselves there.
It seems like some
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How is it that Maduro and his allies can continue to persist with economic policies so patently stupid that even an undergraduate student of economics at any American or European university can predict and explain their inevitable failures?
Stupid or genius? Depends on the goal.
If its to improve the economy and life quality, plain stupid. If its to stay in power forever, genius!
1. Ruin the economy, make people poor and easy to manipulate
2. Create many social programs to "help" the poor, the poor depend on the state
3. Confiscate and nationalize everything, the state must run as much as possible, have everyone working for the state
4. Make it clear that they have to support and vote for you, or they lose their job and "hard earned" state b
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How can Maduro possibly explain this with a straight face other than to admit that currency controls and confiscation of private property for redistribution to his supporters is not the way forward to economic prosperity?
State-controlled media, which is all most people have access to, have kept pumping propaganda about how the downturn is due to an "economic war" waged by the capitalists to damage the government. Over 15 years the govt has managed to create a polarized climate where, if you disagree with the government, you're lying b/c you're a CIA shill. The poor are inclined to believe the government not just because of the 24/7 propaganda, but because they're uneducated and the government very overtly gives them minor a
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I'm glad you can speak for all users of the internet across Venezuela, very impressive.
He's s shill probably (Score:5, Informative)
If you look at his account, it is brand new and this is his only post. I've noticed this kind of thing on various sites when there's a story on Venezuela that is critical of the government or that talks about the problems happening. People who have never posted before pop up and say it isn't true, or blame the US, or whatnot.
Now maybe they were longtime readers who just happened to suddenly decide to participate, but I kinda doubt it. I think it is a bunch of pro-government types that are out to shill. Could be officially sanctioned, could just be a bunch of nationalist types (which all countries seem to have) that are doing it of their own accord.
Seems to be happening fairly often with Venezuela stories though, so one way or another I think this is a concerted effort on the part of some people, and not just happenstance.
Re:He's s shill probably (Score:4, Insightful)
Welcome to Communism. Totalitarian leader. Oppressive regime. Total economic collapse. Continuous propaganda internal and external.
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Under capitalism, man exploits man.
Under Communism, man exploits man, and they censor the Internet.
Re:He's s shill probably (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that is not communism but rather corruption. I suspect communism might be so prone to get corrupted, that many people cannot tell the difference between communism and corruption.
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join the club!
at this point in the US's history, I can't tell the diff between capitalism and corruption.
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I see your point.
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join the club!
at this point in the US's history, I can't tell the diff between capitalism and corruption.
Oh, but there is a difference. As much difference as you are willing to pay for.
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In capitalism, corruption lasts until someone comes along with something better.
In Communism, corruption lasts until the corrupt are unable to kill everyone with a better idea.
With any luck, you can learn to see the difference before one becomes the other.
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captitalism is about polarity: you can't have a capitalistic society unless you have poor and rich classes. those in power want to keep it that way, too.
Wow, you've really swallowed that propaganda whole.
Let me ask you this: if the average worker by the end of a productive career owns roughly 1 per-capita share of the means of production, is that capitalism, or communism?
Capitalism is the means of production owned by the people (maybe inequitably, but that's not a requirement), while communism is the means of production owned by the government "in the name of" the people.
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I live in the US and I see what capitalism is, at its worst. we are the leaders world-wide in abusing the capitalist concept.
what I see is that NOTHING is owned by The People anymore. its owned by corporations and those are the new government. we traded elected officials for unelected ones.
at the end of the day, I'm just as poor as I was the day before. growing wealth is a lock-out market and nearly none of us will die much richer than we were born. this is the failure of the so-called american dream.
w
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link for the movie I referred to:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt22... [imdb.com]
find it on TPB.
watch it and tell me that capitalism is AT ALL better than any other system. in modern times, its a complete and total failure for everyone but the ruling classes.
just like every other system out there!
of course, those at the top LOVE making bank on the backs of the rest of us. for them, its a godsend!
Re:He's s shill probably (Score:4, Insightful)
People never seem to understand is Communism just exchanges one currency for another, instead of trading gold or dollars of people just trade political influence and favors. Naturally favors and influence are much harder to account for the dollars, so the tendency is going to be of course toward corruption as transparency becomes nearly impossible.
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No under capitalism no one is exploited. Values exchanges for value and nobody does anything forcibly against their will. It's only when you add government activity beyond the protection of private property that you get exportation. Suddenly there all these regulations and tax requirements and other things that require people to do things.
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You mean like during the Early Industrial revolution?
It's comments like yours that make people dismiss libertarians as disconnected from reality.
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You do realize the during the early industrial revolution people flocked to those jobs because they were so much better than what they had before, right?
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Sure. And people can just decide not to eat for prolonged time whenever no acceptable way to generate income is available.
If you want to eat offer something of value to someone with food. Truth is the number of people in the US who could not afford the calories basic nutrients they need to survive even is vanishingly small. Sure that might mean a diet of whatever canned vegetable is on special this week, beans, fortified bread and water; eaten cold because you have no resources with which to cook it. Pretend whatever you want but most people could easily meet their needs if they thought about it.
Not eating when you are unwi
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That was largely the way it worked back when America was great and there was supposed to have been plenty of opportunities that we can't seem to find now. Hunger seems to be a perfect motivation to try harder. But as it is now, hunger is the government's fault because they didn't give you enough food stamps in order to sell half for booze or drugs and feed yourself with the other half.
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But as it is now, hunger is the government's fault because they didn't give you enough food stamps in order to sell half for booze or drugs and feed yourself with the other half
Well, your argument falls apart there, since it's hard to imagine someone to whom the government isn't giving enough food stamps. Somewhere around 2011 we passed the threshold. More people receive means-tested government assistance (like food stamps, but this excludes retirement programs) than pay income taxes. Can a democracy with more takers than makers survive? I suspect we share an opinion on that.
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I was being facetious on that point. What I was trying to say is that when people got hungry, they did something about it, now it seems like they complain until someone else does something about it for them. It's the difference between when life was good and now where everyone wants to recount their misery.
And please keep in mind, when I say everyone I'm not really talking about everyone. There are plenty of people who fail and work harder just to succeed. There are plenty of people who will be more than ha
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You act as if any of "our" regimes would act differently when the protests start. Rest assured, the first thing that will be shut down is communication between protesters.
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The Brits were discussing of blocking BBM when they had riots some time ago, but they ended before a decision could be made.
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What do you mean? Surely those Slashdot stories about government kill switches for smart phones have nothing at all to do with America! It's just a coincidence.
But if we can stave off the communism here, maybe it won't come to that.
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Welcome to Communism. Totalitarian leader. Oppressive regime. Total economic collapse. Continuous propaganda internal and external.
Err! were does it state that Venezuela politics is communistic? although the major parities do have those type of leanings but basically the people do have the right to vote with the voting age starting at 18. If you stated that the political party has leanings of Fascist-ism then I may agree with you however the truth is much more complex. If you look at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V... [slashdot.org]> Wiki you will find out that "Venezuela is among the most violent places on Earth. In Venezuela, a person is mu
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When you nationalize the primary industries of your nation, congrats, you're a communist state. Economic collapse is now just a matter of time.
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Welcome to Communism. Totalitarian leader. Oppressive regime. Total economic collapse. Continuous propaganda internal and external.
My country only had have capitalists non democratic governments with those characteristics until now but YMMV.
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The majority of Venzuelans voted for the government they have today. They stood idly while Chavez rewrote the constitution "for the common people". Now they get to enjoy the benefits.
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I wish a was more optimistic about America being on the same path, if at a slower pace. Still, we have time left to choose a different way.
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with venezuela, the kneejerk "blame america" is pretty swift and is standard
when venezuelans started protesting last week, they kicked out some american diplomats in response
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/17/... [cnn.com]
either:
1. the usa is pushing magic buttons in washington dc and making venezuelans revolt (and not the actual issues and problems about venezuela the people revolting articulate)
2. it's a tired bullshit cynical ploy that, unfortunately, still works with large enough of the population that it is still wor
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venezuelan government just does what it did last time.
but yeah of course it's USA's fault that the people are using dollars since the domestic currency is so fucked.
obama really doesn't have to care either way..
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the venezuelan system doesn't work, and the people are organically angry about that, with the venezuelan govt
it has nothing to do with the usa
i don't know how or why you frame this as the usa doing something it did in the cold war, when all of the angry venezuelans on the street right now are in the street because of how fucked up the system is in venezuela is right now, because of something their own govt is screwing up. nothing to do with the usa at all
you don't really have any understanding of the situat
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Yeah, I linked to a factual and reasonable lecture about Marx below and the lefties modded it down. Which is behaviour I see repeated very often when dealing with Marxists/Communists/Feminists. The video by Stefan Molyneux can be viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]
Can't keep the truth down, you misanthropes!
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San Cristobal was isolated from the internet. But the rest of the country suffers the blocking of certain sites like NTN24. But the use of TOR and other measures is spreading.
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You could log in and be on Classic in one jiffy!
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Don't lie. I used my stopwatch, and it takes 3.18 jiffies to get logged in.
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You say your internet was cut off... By posting on the internet?
Please note, he said it was cut off for 36 Hours. He posted after the cutoff ended.
And while Maduro murders Venezuelans... (Score:4, Informative)
Poor hams (Score:3)
So.. ham radio. Radio Club Venezolano. National Emergency Network. Satellite Dishes. ISS. Free hosting. Google... Facebook... friends.
There are probably a bunch of ways to get information in/out of Venezuela, at least in a one-way burst.
On the other hand http://www.yv5rcv.org/ [yv5rcv.org] tweets pane shows "Hmm, an empty timeline. That's wierd." Ouch.
Venezuela thinks it is Madagascar (Score:3)
Only Madagascar can shut down everything
a very bad decision (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know why incumbent governments ever think this is a valid why to curb public sentiment. In every single situation where they try to do this to control the population it does the exact opposite and incites them to get off their lazy bottoms and rebel. They must not realize that cutting off internet access also cuts off pornography which means you have a lot of angry frustrated men with some serious aggression to work out roaming the streets. It is the worst move I can imagine.
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When your government shuts down the internet you're sure they are there for themselves and not the people.
AMA (Score:2)
Most of what you may want to ask is probably already covered here, tho: http://caracaschronicles.com/2... [caracaschronicles.com]
BTW, full Internet shutdown seems to be in effect only in San Cristobal. In most other places, you can bypass the blocks by using the Tor Browser.
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Thank you.
Ok you naysayers, this is what /. is good for. Along with recycled jokes and car analogies of course.
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So, that's some prejudiced site. To quote:
"Was Maduro fairly elected?
No. Maduro’s party, PSUV, relies heavily on state resources to fund and execute their campaigns"
Does not looks any worse than the US president election, where those who can get the most money from their followers (who expect something in return) gets elected. At least Maduro got the majority of votes, unlike required in some other "democratic" systems.
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I don't see ANY difference. In both cases it can be called corruption. What you call fundraising I call bribing the potential president / senator / congressperson (many companies support both candidates just to be sure, good for them the US has effectively a 2-party system so they don't need to bribe more candidates). In the US case, it always means that the extreme rich and big companies can buy their influence. Remember what happened to that congressman that wanted to shorten copyright life? The industry
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What do you think of the situation? Do you think that this time protesters will finally justify the lives lost or will they walk away with nothing (or worse)? Do you think the government will further escalate the arms race? Do you think the protesters will match the use of force?
Additional Cuban troops arrived too (Score:2)
https://pjmedia.com/ronradosh/... [pjmedia.com]
Maduro wants no possibility of an Arab spring or Ukraine revolt
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What I find quite interesting is how the media is *really* pushing hard on anything Ukraine related, but is damned quiet on anything relating to Venezuela.
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To be fair, at the moment the Ukraine revolt is far more bloody and destructive. At the moment.
Really? Last I heard 60-70 odd people dead in the Ukraine, and over 300 dead in Venezuela.
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In the US, it has always been like this
That's great, but I'm not in the US. I'm in Canuckland, and it's not just the US media, it's the international media. I'm decently fluent enough that I can read media in 4 other languages, can't speak it but that's okay. It's the same from Japan to Europe, to the Americas. Unless it's the South Americas in which case it's even quieter.
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Maduro wants no possibility of an Arab spring or Ukraine revolt
Cutting off the Internet didn't save the pre-revolution Egyptian Government and it won't save Maduro either. It's a sign of weakness.
Poor people are the majority (Score:2)
The poor majority doesn't need internet and can't have it. As long as the poor back the government and will take action, as they did in the past - it's not the same situation.
Beware of the media manipulations (Score:2, Informative)
So, a handful of people (the recent "protests" were in the number of hundreds, maybe a few thousands at most, nothing of a big and massive popular protest, as Venezuela had in the past, with both opposition and chavistas massing hundred of thousands, even millions) violently protest, attack public infrastructure (city halls, metro stations, hospitals, ...). People are killed - not by the police, but by the protesters, most of the death are _chavistas_ not opposition.
Then, the opposition start a massive medi
And by "hundreds of people"... (Score:2)
...you mean hundreds of thousands [battleswarmblog.com], as numerous pictures from Newspapers and Twitter [twitter.com] have shown.
The rest of your post is of similar accuracy.
Now why don't you tell us how Euromaidan in Ukraine is "just a handful of extremists"?
All of their problems are part of the one issue (Score:2)
That government has to go... Chavez and those he brought into power are a cancer.
And they can either cut it out or rot.
Up to them to decide and do the deed one way or the other. But I'm done feeling sorry for people that don't fight oppression in their own backyard.
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Such is the price of liberty.
Pay it gladly. It is worth every drop of blood.
Understand, the forces that wish to enslave mankind are without remorse. We have wild eyed religious fanatics. We have self interested tyrants that just want all the whores they can stuff into a gold plated building. We have fanatical ideologues that wish to use humanity as lab rats in their social experiments. Etc...
And when you face such people reason means nothing. Appeals to morality mean nothing. Appeals for mercy mean nothing.
censorship long-term effects (Score:2)
it will be interesting to see and learn what the long-term economic and social effects of these censorship attempts are. the effect of censorship is not just going to cut off the "pruhtesters", it'll cut off researchers from access to papers and equipment, businesses from the customers and suppliers, and, additionally, cut off government departments within venezuela from effective communication with each other in the day-to-day operations. looking further ahead i look forward to seeing whether other gover
Days of the Dictator are Ending (Score:3)
False information and no information to people in a country (ala the old Pravda in the USSR) as a means of achieving a politically repressive end is coming to a close.
Cuba, Ukraine and Venezuela are the proving grounds to show that governments can no longer keep the free will of the populace from exerting itself.
But the old dictators will hold on until they are thrown out. It could still take decades in some places where the dictatorship is effectively run by the military and they are the true power, like N. Korea.
The trend of history is clear over the last 150 years as countries have moved to freer and freer elections. The king is dead.
one whole heck (Score:2)
I was only expecting half a heck.
How many shedloads is that?
Hurry Oliver! (Score:2)
Someone call Oliver Stone, he'll know what to do!
Utopia ? (Score:3)
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They were not tossed out so now they're making trouble.
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The bourgeoisie were not removed and retain a great deal of power outside of the government they used to own. It is a difficult situation where the poor try to setup a modern democracy with a more old-school marketplace without the established powers locally or abroad helping; in fact, they do things to undermine success. It's not good for multinational exploiters and power brokers like the IMF to have free countries succeed.
It is pretty much human history, the ones with power will not be civil about reli
Re:The Internet cannot be shut down. (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't really work for you if you are in the damaged / isolated area.
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or in countries where the authoritarians demand an 'internet kill switch'.
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...like the US?
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If you think the US is an authoritarian country you don't understand the meaning of authoritarian.
Re:The Internet cannot be shut down. (Score:5, Informative)
It senses any attempt to do so as damage and routes around it.
Yes, but with less bandwidth.
I use a private ISP (Intercable) and while my ping to www.google.com usually sits around 100 ms, now it's usually at 800 ms or so.
Now it might be backbones shutting down or it might just be that everyone is on youtube and twitter trying to get news and clogging the links.
There's also a lot of people recommending VPN apps for their computer or phone to get around censorship, others using zello or other apps to get news and communicate, and so on.
Funny this is what gets talked about rather than Maduro kicking CNN out of the country, the dead protesters or the armed 'non-government' supporters atttacking them. But hey, this is /. I guess.
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Funny this is what gets talked about rather than Maduro kicking CNN out of the country, the dead protesters or the armed 'non-government' supporters atttacking them. But hey, this is /. I guess.
If you care then you're seeing that stuff already. This, however, is news for nerds. I, for one, welcome our on-topic overlords. So long as they don't Beta me.
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How do you route around damage if you have one way in and one way out?
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Pulling the plug at the ISP leaves you no place to route. Pulling the plug at the backbone might allow you to route within the portion of the internet on your side of the plug, except that your ISP may very well pull the plug at the same time.
You can try this yourself on a small scale. Go to your modem/router, and pull the plug. Unplug ALL the wires going into it. Few modems, if any, will continue to route WIFI - but even if it does, what are you going to get on your local network? It's highly doubtful
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I have no idea of what other party are you implying might benefit? Is Google expanding Fiber to South America?
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The rest of the latin american governments, except Chile and maybe Paraguay are controlled by "socialists". Argentina has expressed "full support" for Maduro's governent. Ridiculous, really.
Re:Follow the money (Score:4, Insightful)
The rest of the latin american governments, except Chile and maybe Paraguay are controlled by "socialists".
Colombia and Mexico are both run by right-of-center governments (at least by Latin American standards). Both are firmly anti-Maduro, especially Colombia, since Venezuela has actively supported the FARC guerrillas operating inside Colombia.
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http://www.borderlandbeat.com/ [borderlandbeat.com]
Mexico is not run by the government. Mexico's government uses a corrupt military and police force in an attempt to make a show of running the country, but it isn't working.
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The Venezuelan regime treats every problem as a nail to be hammered, so it THINKS the Internet shutdown will help them.
I was in Egypt when the government shut down the internet for several days to prevent protests, prior to the ousting of Mubarak. It was a very short-sighted move: to a great extent, the only thing keeping a lot of people off the streets was Facebook - take that away, and people's only option (for information and/or entertainment) is to go outside...
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Getting elected in a country governed by a constitution and the rule of law shouldn't allow you t do anything you want. The problem in places like Venezuela and Ukraine is that the elected seem to believe that getting a plurality of votes legitimises any and all future actions.
Venezuela's democracy seems.paper thin to me.
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Well, if their election process at least ensures that the one to be prez gets the plurality of the votes they're already a step ahead from some other countries...
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Be careful about cause and effect.
In some countries you may become president because you got the majority of the votes. That would be typical in a democracy.
In other countries you may get the majority of the votes because you are the president. That is definitely not a democracy.
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Janoekovitschj also seemed to have forgotten that yesterday.
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He was elected in a deeply divided country with 2 almost equal groups opposinbg each other. That's almost guaranteed to lead to instability.
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I bet Obama's doing it. Venezuela did offer Snowden citizenship.
No, Obama is responsible for climate change and the Kennedy assassination.
Get it straight.
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They'renot American cowboy-capitalists. That's something else as being communists, althoug it might be difficult to see for some rednecks who can only think one-digit binary.
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