NSA Intercepted French Telephone Calls "On a Massive Scale" 330
rtoz writes "The US National Security Agency (NSA) has been intercepting French telephone calls 'on a massive scale,' according to a report published in Le Monde. According to Le Monde, the NSA recorded millions of telephone calls placed by French citizens over a 30-day period last year, including some placed by people with no connections to terrorist organizations. France called in the U.S. ambassador to protest the alleged large-scale spying on French citizens by NSA."
Another strike against dragnetting (Score:3)
It's impossible to keep an operation that big under wraps. I can't say I have a problem with the US spying on other countries. I do have a major problem with a wasteful, counterproductive grab bag approach that relies on 20ish high school dropouts.
Re:Another strike against dragnetting (Score:5, Insightful)
Given how patriotic one of them has been, I'll give three cheers for 20ish high school dropouts.
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Maybe you've heard that they have a Narco-Terrorist insurgency in Mexico? They've had more people killed than the US lost in Vietnam ( 60,000+). The violence spills over the border, and the American side of the border isn't safe in many places for miles into the US. The drugs don't spill over, they flow in. So yes, the US might have a reason or two to have an idea about what is going on in Mexico.
And is the Mexican President personally involved? If not then why spy on his email? If you want some info from him then ask. This is what friends do.
And by the way, did you hear that some of the 9-11 hijackers were from a terrorist cell in Hamburg Germany [bbc.co.uk]? Maybe there is a reason for the US to keep an eye on things in Europe as well.
Most countries have a potential terrorist or two, this doesn't justify spying on everyone. A 9/11 style attack can never happen again due to the change in flight passenger knowledge, it's done and there's no point guarding against the use of commercial aircraft as weapons any further.
...including some placed by people... (Score:5, Insightful)
with no terrorist connections?
SOME?
When you intercept millions of phone calls, I'd rather expect that the majority of them are not placed by terrorists, else terrorists have the phone habits of the average western teenager.
Re:...including some placed by people... (Score:5, Funny)
All teenagers are terrorist, just ask the parents of the other teenager :-)
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Re:...including some placed by people... (Score:4, Insightful)
You only have to adjust your definition of 'terrorist comnnections'.
For the NSA, an Nth degree connection is most likely enough.
As in: your number has in the past called some number, that was also called by a number which had been in contact with a number which is suspected to have once been used by someone who's name is on one of their lists.
This kind of 'meta-information' is exactly what they are fishing for after all.
I am more interested in how they got 'some' with no terrorist connections. Maybe only brand new phone numbers on their first use?
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The population of Paris is 2.2 million. So that's at least 2.2 million with 'antisocial personality disorder'.
Scarrrring !!!! (Score:3)
Millions of conversations & "some" are not related to terrorists ! ... shudder .... ... ....
Millions is at least 2 millions or 66 666/day...
"Some" is at most "half" so there where apparently 33 333 conversations related to terrorist every day
So assuming that all these bad guys where plotting like crazy, every day, and always the same, that still means that with 50 conversations per day the NSA should have found out at least 600 "new" terrorist
nb: there are about 60 000 people in jail in France, so at the very least 1% is something like "large"
So Where are they ??? are they hiding under my table ... or in some bush on my way home .... shudder shudder ....
Or should it read, some conversations where related to terrorism ...
In practice, when the official communication says: we looked at all these people and some where innocent... I find it much more scary than
we unfortunately looked at a lot of innocent people but we did find "some" very bad people...
The fact that the communication days "some where innocent" really gives the impression that they are again trying to bamboozle us ...
Re:Scarrrring !!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
What makes you assume that "some" is "at most half"? Any logician will tell you that "some" only technically means "at least one". The statement "some ravens are black" is absolutely true - I am stating only that that at least one raven is black, and that I am not claiming that non-black ravens don't exist. But by the same logic I can make the equally true statement that "some apples are purple" - I have seen a purple apple, therefore the statement is true.
As such the claim that "some calls are not related to terrorists" is essentially information-free. It means only that at least one call was not related - which is a given granted that surveillance at this scale can not be 100% accurately targeted. It significantly does not make any claim whatsoever that even one of those monitored calls actually was terrorist-related.
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You are technicaly right, but if you use logic in order to tell things that are true but do sound very different from what they actually are you are doing weaseling with weasel word.
As in "our prices are the lowest we ever did* (* on selected products)" sounds cheap but just means that you are offloading some unsaleable junk..
Or "Blue Sky initiative" sounds ecological, it just means that you called some activity "blue sky initiative"
Some ... could mean "all of them" but then it would be natural and honest t
France is top industrial espionage country (Score:3)
This article [telegraph.co.uk] articulates many points on France's recent espionage history.
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Yes, just look at their biggest industrial coup, where France stole the best invention of the human race from another country: So-called "French" fries were actually invented by the Belgians!
But in the international automobile industry, there used to be an old saying, "The French copy from nobody . . . but nobody copies the French."
Uh oh. (Score:5, Funny)
La merde vient de frapper le ventilateur.
If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I suspect many Americans would be demanding that Versailles get nuked or we name french fries to freedom fries.
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This is sort of off topic but I heard a comment by Ariana Huffington in a debate on whether the US two party system is detrimental. At some point, the debate turned to job creation and she made the point that America currently ranks 10th in upward mobility, behind France. Then she said something like "The US being behind France in upward mobility is like France being behind the US in croissants and afternoon sex."
http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/past-debates/item/560-the-two-party-system-is-making [intelligen...aredus.org]
Perfectly reasonable (Score:5, Funny)
God knows, if there's anyone I want protecting from it's the French. Sir Humphrey Appleby had it right. They may be our allies now, but for most of the last 1,000 years they've been our enemies. I'd vote for an increase of surveillance on the French.
And once that's happened, let's start on the Welsh.
Asking for their statue back? (Score:4, Insightful)
Not so much as retribution, simply because it doesn't apply, any more.
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So will the french demand the return of the Statue of Liberty that they gifted to the americans?
Hey France: Molon labe.
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I think this is a brilliant idea. You're right, the Statue of Liberty does not apply any longer. Well, certainly not in America, at least.
So will the french demand the return of the Statue of Liberty that they gifted to the americans?
Not so much as retribution, simply because it doesn't apply, any more.
Re:Asking for their statue back? (Score:4, Informative)
So will the french demand the return of the Statue of Liberty that they gifted to the americans?
The intellectual father of the Statue (Laboulaye) and the designer (Bartholdi) both felt that the United States better embodied the spirit of liberte, egalite, fraternite than Napoleon's empire.
Which is why the Statue of Liberty was installed in the USA, facing France, as a big middle finger to Napoleon III.
(Even though Napoleon was long gone by the time the Statue was finished.)
And people are surprised by this? (Score:2)
People have "known" (ie suspected) for years that the federal government was doing something like this. With all the revelations that have been released recently, why are people so surprised when another comes out? And this may have been started by the previous administration (or the one before that) but the current administration knew about it. I am kinda surprised there has not been a Congressional hearing about this yet.
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LMFTFY (Score:2)
"The US National Security Agency (NSA) has been intercepting FREEDOM telephone calls 'on a massive scale,' according to a report published in Le Monde.
Bad Summary (Score:3)
The summary makes no mention of how much all these phone calls weighed.
What is going on? (Score:2)
Hmmmm .
http://i.imgur.com/ZNEidk7.jpg [imgur.com]
Were they surprised? (Score:4, Insightful)
Everything Old is New Again (Score:3)
Peter Allen had it right ..
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/how_they_do_it/2006/02/wiretapping_europeanstyle.html [slate.com]
Reported and discussed several years ago:
Jokes on them (Score:3)
They were all in French.
Re:Realities (Score:5, Insightful)
which is not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
Re:Realities (Score:5, Informative)
Friendly? France is well known for its industrial espionage [france24.com].
Did you read the article ? (Score:2, Informative)
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OTH if they keep doing it the country might stop being friendly, so it is a nice self fulfilling prophecy
It's all just a show (Score:5, Insightful)
which is not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
There is no such thing as a friendly foreign country as far as intelligence services are concerned. While I (and probably you) do not and should not approve of the NSA's actions, we also should not be even a tiny bit surprised by them and you can be quite sure France is not surprised despite what their government might claim. Allies can become enemies and even countries on good terms can harbor dangerous individuals - sometimes unknowingly. The US and Canada have the longest undefended border in the world but I guarantee you that they do spy on each other and that each has developed invasion/defense plans against the other just in case. Intelligence services like the CIA and NSA look for information wherever it can be found. If that happens to be a "friendly" nation or even their own citizens then so be it. This is why it is SO important to have meaningful oversight by civilian authorities. Something which we are sorely lacking at the present time.
Countries that complain about NSA spying are really just putting on a show for their voting public. They have their own intelligence services and you can be 100% certain they are spying on the US and you can also be 100% sure that they knew or at least suspected the NSA spying already. Frankly the ONLY thing that would surprise me is if they were not trying to replicate to some degree what the US is doing.
Re:It's all just a show (Score:4, Funny)
Oh yeah, "just in case". Never mind the fact that we Canadians had robotic moose and beavers for the last 150 years and we've been using them to spy on you since the late 1200's.
Re:It's all just a show (Score:5, Funny)
Just in case (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh yeah, "just in case"
Yes, just in case [wikipedia.org] for both sides [wikipedia.org]. Doesn't mean the plans are expected to be used but you can be certain that the US military has at some point developed plans for attacking and defending against every country in the world. Just in case.
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Whatever makes you think a country spying on its friends is unusual?
You usually spend more effort spying on your friends than your enemies, if only because it's relatively easier...
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... not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
Friendly? Try walking into any French restaurant and speaking with an American (or British or German) accent, and tell us how friendly they are.
(OK; this is a cheap shot. Everyone already knew about this, right? ;-)
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But Mom! All the kids are doing lines and beating up old ladies!
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Who says they don't? They might just also have the capabilities to not get caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.
Re:Realities (Score:5, Insightful)
The French are not complaining about "foreign intelligence" they first and foremost defending their citizens rights. NSA tapped the whole frigging country including underwater sea cables. They didn't spy on specific strategic interests but every damn citizens of france and didn't even bother to work through the french security establishment that already cooperates fully with NSA. NSA managed to piss of the french by fucking them over multiple times at once.
Re:Realities (Score:4, Funny)
NSA tapped the whole frigging country including underwater sea cables.
As much as I don't like what the NSA has been doing, it's nice to know that that Yankee "can do" spirit isn't dead.
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The reality is, they'd do the same if they had the capabilities to do so.
That line of thought can justify just about any imaginable act of aggression. We can summary execute the citizens of any other country - since we have the capability, we can nuke anyone we feel like - they'd do it first if they could, etc. Complete breakdown of international law and agreements and the right of might.
Well, guess what US, the world is changing fast and it's just a matter of decades until the mighty will be in Asia. You won't like living in the world you've helped create.
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Keeping in mind that France didn't complain at all about ECHELON this is rather annoying. The NSA could have prevented this by just offering to share the recordings with the French intel agencies.
Re:Realities (Score:4, Insightful)
. Besides, the conspiracy theorist in my head thinks a lot of this is faux outrage on the part of the French government. I'm willing to bet that similar to the UK, the NSA is sharing all the information they're getting from the French taps with the DCRI (or other French intelligence service).
Such a conspiracy theory does make a lot of sense. Consider that the main PR approach in the US is to say that the intel agencies can't (legally ;-) spy on US citizens; they're only (legally ;-) allowed to spy on foreigners. This is just what they're accused of doing in this case, and it's legal under US law.
And to the French government, it's really useful. They can act outraged in public, while listening to their copies of the recordings, and be confident that nothing can be done (legally ;-) against it because the NSA is beyond the reach of any French laws or courts.
Sounds like a win-win situation to me, at least from the viewpoint of the US and French governments. And in both countries, the "people" don't matter, because both governments can satisfy them with their own PR based on this story.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, spoken like a true American who feels entitled to be a douchebag.
When the rest of the world decides they're tired of your shit, you can likely expect to see a backlash against the US.
I can see governments basically saying "we're not buying your stuff, we're not hosting your bases, we're sure as hell not working with you and we don't give a fuck".
America likes to think their interests trump everyone else's. But I see a time coming where other governments start saying "fuck you".
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Ah, spoken like a true American who feels entitled to be a douchebag.
When the rest of the world decides they're tired of your shit, you can likely expect to see a backlash against the US.
I can see governments basically saying "we're not buying your stuff, we're not hosting your bases, we're sure as hell not working with you and we don't give a fuck".
America likes to think their interests trump everyone else's. But I see a time coming where other governments start saying "fuck you".
Take it easy mate..being a douchebag is the only right we have left...
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Good luck, the last world leader who tried to trade oil in something other than US dollars was soon hiding in a hole in the ground while his country burned down around him...
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for many conservative, trading, countries usa is the extreme and has been for several decades - dictating who we can trade and with what tech(in the past limiting our trade with russia/ussr, for example, because our tech was too good for them).
if we're overrun by extremists then that probably would be the extremists that don't want aid(or rules) who would be in charge. heck, we'd probably go as refugees to another european country since going as refugees to usa doesn't seem to be working for anyone lately.
b
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Oh, is that the reason you are eavesdropping on my conversations?
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With "allies" like your country no one needs enemies.
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There are far more Muslims in the US than there is in France. So you might mind all your calls being tapped by foreign intelligence agencies, right?
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You might want to get a clue before before making silly declarations. It takes about one minute on Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] to settle the fact.
France: 4.7 million, 7.5%
USA: 2.6 million, 0.8%
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Saying your $FOO doesn't mean you're really a $FOO as described by $FOO.SACRED_WRITINGS.
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Better go tell the Foo Fighters.
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But every time someone tries to read the writings, they get a different interpretation.
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But every time someone tries to read the writings, they get a different interpretation.
Good point...hey! That gives me an idea!
LET'S BUILD A PRNG BASED ON THE SACRED WRITINGS!
(oh, wait...no, that won't work. A lot of what people say based on their interpretations of the sacred writings is actually quite predictable...damn!)
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There are no true Scotsmen either.
In any case the original writings contradict each other, so no-one could be said to be described by them all, only some selected subset.
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Yes, I wept bitter tears after seeing that I'd posted that typo.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Funny)
America is 75% christian, and given how feral and out-of-countrol some of the groups are, I'd say they're fair game.
Apparently the NSA agreed with you.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
Re:Muslims (Score:4, Insightful)
Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh? Or the people who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors? And if you want I can continue listing other domestic terrorism by Christians.
And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh?
Timothy McVeigh was raised as a Roman Catholic, but later claimed to be agnostic [wikipedia.org]. There is no evidence that there was any religious motivation for his actions.
And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
You are equating far less than 1% of Christians with 80% or more of Muslims. 90% of Pakistani Muslims think people should be executed for blasphemy. 40% of Pakistani Muslims feel that the 10% who are willing to tolerate blasphemy should also be executed. This is not theoretical. Salmaan Taseer [wikipedia.org], a Pakistani politician was murdered, not for blasphemy, but merely for advocating the abolition of the death penalty for blasphemy. There was widespread approval of his murder. How many Christians support abortion clinic bombers?
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Thanks for making up some stats so we can all know the truth.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Funny)
You can come up with statistics to prove anything, AC. Forty percent of all people know that.
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Er... then why did 'ol Tim McV hang out with that wacked out christian identity group? To convert them to agnostism? I think not.
In America, if you are Muslim and spew rhetoric against the State, you are arrested, "tried", and sent to jail. In the self-same America, if you are a Christian and spew rhetoric against the State, you are allowed to continue based on your 1st amendment rights. So much for equal application of the American ideal...
Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh?
Timothy McVeigh was raised as a Roman Catholic, but later claimed to be agnostic [wikipedia.org]. There is no evidence that there was any religious motivation for his actions.
Re:Muslims (Score:4, Insightful)
I can continue listing other domestic terrorism by Christians.
And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
A random dictionary's definition of christian: [learnersdictionary.com]a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ
I would *add* that "believing" is not enough, and practicing is where the true follower is...
But Jesus gave his own litmus test, so why must you and I try to define "true" christian and waste time with the "no true scottsman fallacy [wikipedia.org]": "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another [biblehub.com]" (John 13:35)
There is no "love" in blowing people up and doing what some of these churches are individually doing to blemish the name of who they claim to follow. Jesus knew this about the wolves entering the flock. See Acts 20:29 [biblegateway.com]. The net result? false doctrine and interpretation create a rift between people and God.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you telling me that WBC is worse than those "christians" bombing clinics, killing doctors, spread hate and starts war like bush just because "god told me"?
Have you even seen some of those christians? Muslims are no worse than christians, just watch africa, and see what the christian militias such as sudanese christian militias roaming around and raping , LRA (congo, heard of kony?) and other places, or do you really think that every fucking militia in africa is muslim or animist? There is one major religion in Africa and it's christianity, look at south africa, not only were they christian but they also used bible verses to support their apartheid.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Informative)
Hitler was not an atheist. He was a Roman Catholic, and had agreements and treaties with the Vatican
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
That article makes no sense what so ever. Atheists do not believe in a god, but the article claims that communists believe their leader is a god, and there for they are atheists.
Actually the more I read the article the more ridiculous it gets. They claim that atheists and communist have no moral code, which is a blatantly false logical fallacy.
When you have an article that backs up your claim that is not almost entirely over generalizations come talk to me.
Re:Muslims (Score:4, Insightful)
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Let's get real. The worst Christians are Westboro Baptist Church, and what do they do?
First, FTFY.
Second, you're living in a fantasy land if you think the WBC is the be-all-end-all for asshole "Christians" in the USA.
Try telling that to the family of Dr. George Tiller, [wikipedia.org] you ignorant prick.
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you are funny. Hitler was a Christian.
To say nothing of the Christian support in this country for waging wars of choice against "godless heathen" in middle east
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WBC are mostly harmless. Much as I hate to defend them, they have always been non-violent protesters - and to keep their cool is quite an achievement given the type of (well-earned) abuse that has been directed at them. I think it helps that they have a real persecution complex going, so the more hated they are the more they feel justified in their beliefs.
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WBC are mostly harmless. Much as I hate to defend them, they have always been non-violent protesters - and to keep their cool is quite an achievement given the type of (well-earned) abuse that has been directed at them. I think it helps that they have a real persecution complex going, so the more hated they are the more they feel justified in their beliefs.
They do have some more subtle (but quite illegal) tactics up their sleeves. A friend of mine got investigated by the cops after an encounter with the Phelpsies. His sister was riding shotgun and shouted some of that well-earned abuse at them. They took down his (partial) license number and (mostly correct) paint color and reported him for a hit-and-run. The cops paid a visit and examined his car. Luckily, he didn't have any body damage, so that was the extent of the investigation . . .
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Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
WBC is the most vocally odious, but there are many groups that have been much, much worse. Let's start with pretty much the entire white supremacist movement. Aryan Nations considered themselves a (quote) "White Christian Separatist" organization. That's right, these are literally Nazis we're talking about. (How often can someone play the Nazi Card on the Internet while actually stating an objective fact, eh?) Then there are splinter groups like the Louisiana-based "Church of the Sons of Yahweh" (that'
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Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
George W. Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
From http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa [theguardian.com]:
> One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
> Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words com
Re:Muslims (Score:4, Funny)
Not to mention the fact that the Westboro Baptists are obviously a troll group and not a sincere church. Fred Phelps used to be a civil rights lawyer for God's sake.
I get what you mean. They are a US domestic CIA PsyOp. It's always been evident.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
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Perhaps people who live in France care? Not everyone is as self-centered as thou.
Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's their job to a) not blanket-grab millions of phone users of data in a random bug hunt but to apply "intelligence" and b) not to get caught doing so. They are spies. This is just terribly amateur. If you don't see that, then you're really missing the biggest thing - that's the problem more than ANYTHING else. So fucking amateur that it makes you look like a bunch of incompetents.
However, on a similar note, if you found out that the French authorities had a complete copy of your phone records which got publicly leaked (WikiLeaks-style, say), would you not be pissed? It could easily destroy your career, your life, your relationships, etc. (think: This might include the phone numbers of sex chat lines, and you might be a politician / teacher - nothing ILLEGAL in doing that, but would you want that being public knowledge after illegal collection of that data by a foreign entity not being held subject to the laws of YOUR country?).
Now think that that might include, say, phone calls made by the US ambassador to France while he was in the US. Now we're into REALLY serious shit that you can't even get in a court of law in the country.
What's more shocking is NOT that this data exists, or has been abused for purposes far beyond their remit, nor that they are that incompetent that it gets found out so easily (but that's pretty damning), but that - in order to "protect" the US, they have now incurred the wrath of quite a number of other countries allied to them and - should it come out into the public media that certain things were captured "accidentally" into that data - could well be the trigger to an international incident (read: War).
What if you found that a US ally like, say, the UK had complete records of every US citizen that the US did not give them (because a law prevents the US from doing so, and they thought it was just a blind hunt without purpose, and couldn't see why the UK would need that so they blocked it) but they stole in other ways and then managed to publish/leak to a newspaper in the UK?
And what if that info contained things like the phone records of major political figures? Or the phone calls made from Guantanamo Bay? Or what numbers were dialled in the Washington DC area when the UK queried why it join in fighting in the Middle East (or whatever?). It's not WHAT specifically was collected - it was why it was collected and what COULD be inside that that could easily trigger an international incident. And it has. And will continue to do so while things like this come out.
Fact is, there's being a spy - and that means NOT GETTING CAUGHT - and there's just going on a blind hunt through data "because you can" against the laws of a country you are allied to (who would have given you what you wanted if you'd asked).
Just how much co-operation do you think you will see next time you're trying to track a terrorist cell through France? It's counter-productive, and BAD SPYING. TERRIBLE SPYING. CRAP SPYING. And it's pissing off your allies.
Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, NSA's mandate is Signals Intelligence. Which pretty much means grabbing everything they can, then sorting it for utility.
Also, "intelligence" in the context of an intelligence agency (NSA, GCHQ, etc) has NOTHING to do with common usage of the word - it means the information they are gathering, or trying to.
Surely would. However, absent me being a French citizen, it would never occur to me to scream "The French did something illegal!!!!", since FOREIGN intelligence gathering isn't illegal for any country.
Unless, of course, the actual intelligence gatherers are caught in the act of foreign soil. No, finding out they did it a year or two after the fact, with no names of the people doing the actual work, doesn't leave you much room for even a show trial, though "Viewing with Alarm" might be something you'd do to pacify your population when it is revealed that you can't protect your own people from foreign spying.
Which last seems to be what the French are trying for.
I would never expect ANY cooperation from the French in regards to terrorism. The only interest they have is that it not be done against French citizens or businesses. They don't give a rat's ass about any other terrorism....
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Yet another revelation from Snowden that reveals Top Secret American foreign intelligence activities that have no relation to the rights of Americans.
Given the underwhelming response by those who think the Constitution is just a piece of paper, a little foreign heat could only help.
When will people come to understand that his goal was not simply protecting the rights of Americans? Isn't it clear from who his Russian spokesman was?
Given the vicious response of his native country's government to his whistle blowing on 4th Amendment violations, he'd be a fool not to make allies of convenience. Worked for us in WWII.
Maybe they just wanted to know how many French cars would burn this year [nytimes.com], set ablaze by.....guess who?
According to the article you linked to, the "guess who" is the French.
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You are not making any sense here.
Illegal actions taken by our government against foreigners, causing damage to our countries reputation, its relations, and indeed sparking violent blowback as well, is one of the major dangers that Americans face in todays world. Ignoring or avoiding those problems is pointless.
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It seems to me you are not so much pro-Western as you are anti-everything else. Your first post in this thread is entirely typical, judging from your post history. Xenophobe is the word that comes to my mind. You are welcome to your opinion but you might reconsider just how narrowminded it makes you seem.
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Yes, Snowden and Greenwald have a clear agenda. And it is the libertarian view that government is bad and should be defunded.
Please cite where either of them has said that, as opposed to abiding by the Constitution. If you think that libertarians are the only ones who respect that document, you couldn't be more wrong. If you think that defunding the government would help, I'll remind you that the NSA is but a tiny part of the federal budget. Eliminate the federal income tax and they'd still have plenty of money for it.
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Boo freekin hoo. This is what the NSA is supposed to do.
Um, no. They are supposed to focus on the activities of groups who are directly threatening American interests.
They are not supposed to waste billions of dollars worth of resources building haystacks through which to search for needles.
Face it, if the US governments interest was truly limited to fighting actual terrorism, the whole dragnet approach would be considered nothing but an expensive waste of time.
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Of course, as the parties providing oversight and budget are getting kickbacks it's instead considered a most lucrative waste of time.
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It's choice, Jim, but not as we know it.
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...that the NSA managed to intercept more calls of French citizens.... ...than the French government.
The French government, among other parties, will be really enraged if it's revealed that they were willing accomplices. Or even if they just knew about it and kept it quiet based on some "understanding" with the US and British.
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They didn't complain much when Echelon was intercepting all of the French phone calls, probably because the CIA shared that info with them. I think they're more annoyed that the NSA is just greedy.