Massachusetts Set To Repeal Controversial IT Services Tax 122
Nerval's Lobster writes "Massachusetts lawmakers have agreed to repeal a six-week-old tax on computer services that generated such outrage that even the governor who proposed the tax in January now opposes it. The 6.25 percent sales tax on 'computer system design services' was proposed by Gov. Deval Patrick in January, but got little notice before it was slipped in mid-July into a $500 million supplementary funding bill meant to pay for improvements in the state's public transportation system. It was passed by the legislature with almost no debate, was signed into law by the governor with little public outrage, and went into effect – theoretically – July 31. IT businesses in the state used social media, business associations and angry letters to both lawmakers and local media to describe problems with the tax and show their opposition. Confusion over what qualifies as a 'computer system design service' and how to actually implement the tax – which was supposed to generate $161 million in revenue for the state – has been such a challenge to implement that the state has yet to collect a dime. The main logistical problem is figuring out what is covered and what isn't: data access, data processing and 'information services,' for example, are not taxed, which exempts most hosting, cloud, outsourcing and remote-access monitoring or security services. Democratic leaders announced Sept. 12 they would support repeal of the tax, which could be completed within weeks. 'It is now evident that the impact of the tax is broader than any of us ever anticipated or intended,' according to Mass. Senate President Therese Murray at a press conference Sept. 12."
Idiots (Score:3)
(see subject)
Re:Idiots (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes, but I have to say after reading the summary, I'm actually quite impressed that the Massachusetts politicians have reversed course on this idiotic tax so quickly. Usually, politicians do exactly like you say: refuse to change course after it's obvious they made a horrible mistake. Maybe I should look into moving to MA....
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I'm actually quite impressed that the Massachusetts politicians have reversed course on this idiotic tax so quickly.
I'm surprised they hadn't moved faster - tech consultants aren't just small companies after all, and some of the big boys likely started making noises about "funding opponents" and suchlike.
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I'm actually quite impressed that the Massachusetts politicians have reversed course on this idiotic tax so quickly
Will wonders never cease.
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Their reversal had less to do with some kind of intellectual epiphany than it did angry letters from people that contribute to their campaigns.
Even dogs learn not to bite the hand that feeds them.
Re: Idiots (Score:2)
Thus it is newsworthy when politicians stray into the former group.
They saw a stupid thing, and got involved to fix the stupid thing. Including the guy who created the stupid thing.
We could use more of that in politics. A new policy/tax is created, implemented, and then looked at objectively. "Is this working as intended? Are the people loving it?"
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And the population keeps getting bigger too, never smaller.
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Sounds about right... (Score:5, Funny)
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I am sorry, but you seem to be confusing "People who recognize their mistakes when said mistakes are pointed out to them" with "People who do research and learn about a subject before doing something." The later group learns to swim. The former figure out that swimming is not a natural skill after having been rescued by a life guard.
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Better ones that let the life guard rescue them than ones that grab the life guard and start swimming for the bottom.
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But without even knowing what it was taxing, they determined it would add $161 million in revenue!
Wishful thinking (Score:2)
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"The applicable phrase is "lies of omission."
The real phrase is "tunnel vision". All they saw was the imaginary $161 million collection which I'm sure they've already spent.
cap -- anaconda
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You're right -- Hanlon's Razor [wikipedia.org] probably applies.
Where is the line between incompetence and dereliction?
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like driving all technology companies out of Massachusetts and into neighboring states that don't have such a tax.
Isn't this tax applied at the point of delivery? That is: Upon the buyer of the IT services, based upon their location within the state?
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On what basis? They can't even figure out who owes the tax after the fact, how did they come up with that magic number before passing it?
If you ask me my opinion about something, I'll give it. Time may prove me wrong or right, but if wrong, you can bet the farm that I can at least explain my reasoning to you in a rational, even compelling manner.
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I hear that things have gotten so bad in the wake of this law that young hotheads are wandering around stealing, fighting, and drinking in some of the tougher Boston neighborhoods.
Death and Taxes (Score:2, Insightful)
Death and Taxes. Two things you can always rely on.
Oh, and more NSA spying.
Death, Taxes and NSA spying. Three things you can always rely on.
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What about cake? I heard I got the choice between death and cake!
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"Death and Taxes."
Not if the tax collectors/instigators are killed before they can implement/collect the taxes then it's just death. Down to one to rely on.
Stop passing the law to find out what's in it (Score:5, Insightful)
I swear, the way laws get passed in this country is like pushing any commit from a developer straight into production based on its commit message, without even a code review process.
Re:Stop passing the law to find out what's in it (Score:5, Insightful)
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I think this poster may be alluding to this brilliant utterance. [youtube.com]
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I swear, the way laws get passed in this country is like pushing any commit from a developer straight into production based on its commit message, without even a code review process.
Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger Effect? [wikipedia.org]
Net impact: anybody who thinks that he is qualified to rule other people is not. Those who might potentially do the best job stay as far away from it as possible. The result is as expected.
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> Your state needs the tax dollars, so it's not so bad.
I disagree. Taxachusetts needs to drastically cut administrative overhead and slash thousands of public hack jobs.
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and in need of an enema.
Covered by Obama-care.
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I disagree. Taxachusetts needs to drastically cut administrative overhead and slash thousands of public hack jobs.
I'll take "Perennial right wing talking points" for $200, Alex.
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The left, obviously. ;)
Massachusetts legislature admits incompetence (Score:2)
So the legislature admits they passed a law with no idea what its impact would be. As a voter and taxpayer in the commonwealth of Massachusetts, I say with all due respect: WTF?!
I mean, they get points for admitting a blunder and backpedaling furiously, but the hubris of passing laws nobody in the legislature understands is mind-boggling. Just, wow.
If the incumbent in my district has an opponent on the ballot for a change, I sure will consider voting for him/her. (Most state and local offices around here ha
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I mean, they get points for admitting a blunder and backpedaling furiously, but the hubris of passing laws nobody in the legislature understands is mind-boggling. Just, wow.
To be fair, this seems to be the norm for almost all legislatures, at least here in America. Look at Congress and ObamaCare; no one even read the thing before passing it. Most laws are written by lobbyists these days, and given a rubber-stamp by legislators who are in the pay of those lobbyists.
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"No taxation, without representation!", was the cry, way back in the American Revolution times.
It seems taxation with representation isn't much better either.
Quite ironic that this is happening in the state where the Boston Tea Party was brewed . . . over taxes.
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So the legislature admits they passed a law with no idea what its impact would be.
That is only because they didn't listen to their constituents. Everyone ELSE knew what the impact would be, except for the people passing the law.
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That's not true, their constituents had no idea they were putting it into the budget until after it was passed.
deja vous all over again... (Score:1)
we have to PASS the bill to find out what's in it!
Exact same thing happened in Maryland (Score:5, Informative)
incorrect summary (Score:4, Funny)
It says Massachusetts is going to repeal a tax but we all know that can't possibly be right. ;-)
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Sorry, I don't think you're going to get too many people willing to rebel over taxation without implementation.
So... (Score:1)
There might be hope for Taxachusettes, yet.
Nah, just kidding! "They just want your money to turn around and buy votes with programs" continues as a successfully descriptive theory, unchallenged, like relativity and quantum mechanics.
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The fact that Republicans keep making this claim due to their anti-social perspective doesn't make it true, even if they actually believe it due to living in a far-right-wing echo-chamber, and only serves to alienate anyone who believes in western civilization.
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The other respondents were anonymous assholes, so I thought I ought to make some effort to engage on this.
At this time, considering parties with any following at all, there is effectively only one party in the US, and even more so only one in Massachusetts. The Republican Front of the Oligarchy Party is no more and no less in an echo chamber than the Democrat Front of the Oligarchy Party. They both live not just in an ivory tower, but the same ivory tower, and they both want broadly the same things while de
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This is an inevitable result of a two party system. The simplified version is that each party is more or less guaranteed to get the votes that are more extreme than their position so they only compete on the votes that fall between the two parties. This leads to a natural tendency towards each other.
So What? (Score:2)
So some "well-intended" politicians decide to legislate on the basis of "it sounds like a good idea and it's going to save us" and it turns out it was ill-informed, ill-conceived and the full ramifications were not considered.
We just nationalized our health-care industry (and a significant portion of our national economy by extension) on this same basis and we cheered it as a moral duty and an advancement of our society.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAt54NKsRRk
Think of all the children you will feed with t
How did they come up with estimate? (Score:4, Interesting)
I am curious how they can come up with estimate of how much the tax would generate, while also not having a clearly defined scope of what the tax would cover.
It'd be like someone saying they want to buy a car, and me saying it'll cost $20k. The term "car" covers a wide, wide range of possible options, and to give an ballpark figure would be nigh impossible with any accuracy unless I knew the specifics.
Typical politicians (Score:2)
Instead of saving money by making existing infrastructure more efficient, such as by changing their tolls to variable congestion tolls as a means of permanently eliminating traffic congestion... they raise taxes.
Simple (Score:2)
This would all be much easier if the NSA would simply set up automatic transfers from our bank accounts to the Treasury so the feds can just take what they need.
It's called customer service.
Massachusetts is a One Party State (Score:2, Insightful)
In Massachusetts, one party is completely dominant, to the point that 81% of the House, 90% of the Senate, and the Governor are all from the same party. It doesn't matter which party, this kind of stupidity is rampant in one party states because there is little criticism in most areas of law until after the fact. Utah has similar numbers for the other party, so I imagine the same stupidity happens there.
Software is big business in MA, and one of the few growth areas outside of biotech. Did we want to kil
Same with Wisconsin (Score:2)
You should see all the blatant racist policies that have gone into effect. We are ranked #49 on economic growth, yet the supporters are running that in the past 45 days we are ranked 3rd in economic growth in the midwest THANKS GOVERNOR WALKER!!! It's so so bad.
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except for all those republican governors (Score:2)
In Massachusetts, one party is completely dominant, to the point that 81% of the House, 90% of the Senate, and the Governor are all from the same party.
Romney, Swift, Celluci, and Weld were all republicans. Before Dukakis during the mid 1900's, there was a fairly even trade back and forth between republican and democratic governors. Go back even further, and it biases towards republicans. But please, don't let actual facts get in the way of your rant about MA being a "one party" state.
The supposed "lib
As someone from Massachusetts (Score:4, Insightful)
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Your comment has been down modded as you failed to pay the Massachusetts State Online Message board Tax
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A few years back I bought a house across the border in NH. You know, the place with all the libertarians and no taxes and Live Free Or Die, Motherfucker! I was shocked when it $500 or so to register my car there - the fee (not "tax") is calculated based on the MSRP and age of your car, just like down here. Nice going, guys.
Come to think of it, they did the same thing in Arizona when I lived ther
Libertarians (Score:2)
You know, the place with all the libertarians and no taxes and Live Free Or Die, Motherfucker! I was shocked when it $500 or so to register my car there - the fee (not "tax") is calculated based on the MSRP and age of your car, just like down here. Nice going, guys.
Ever consider that it might be stuff like that that tends to push people into the libertarian party?
But yeah, different states are different. To look at how much tax a state differs by you have to look at a lot of taxes - and quite a few states seem to have a tax on just about everything. Sales tax or no sales tax? Are counties/cities allowed to assess their own tax? Is it all through property taxes? Do you only tax 'land' property, or do you also tax vehicles, and what about other assets? There is at
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Taxing me is one thing; calling it something else and pretending not to collect taxes is another.
No real argument there. There's a difference between charging $25 for a pair of license plates because that's what they cost, having a static fee for type/weight of vehicle for the road funds, and charging on the basis of the blue book value of the vehicle - so a sucky 10 year old F-350 is cheaper than a new Prius.
Honesty is good if you're going to do it.
That being said, as a moderate libertarian I don't consider 'tax' a bad word, since I believe that we should have a budget that's balanced on average. Yo
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that tax go to the cities and towns? Not to the state?
Mostly to pay for roads and public works at the city or town level?
I know I make out my check to my local town, not to the Mass DoR.
Personally I think that's a better deal than it going into the State's coffers. At least I can see where my tax dollars g
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That is a property tax, just like homeowners tax. It isn't taxing driving. THAT tax is on the gas.
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But I already paid tax on the car when I bought it-- sales tax. It's financed into the loan I took out when I purchased the car. You mean there would be an additional tax on my car, just for owning it, even if I do not drive it?
In my state you don't get to finance the sales tax. You buy the vehicle for what seems like a great deal and at the top end of what you can afford in payments, and then WHAMMO, the next month you suddenly get hit with a multi thousand dollar tax bill, and the payment options are: 1) pay it all right now and get your permanent tags or 2) don't pay it and not be able to drive legally.
California taxes are higher than Massachusetts.... (Score:2)
"Yeah, they tax driving in Massachusetts. Is it any wonder the Bay State got the moniker: Taxachusetts?
Except you moved from a state with a local/state tax income of 11.2% (California) to one of 10.4% (Massachusetts.) MA is ranked 8th; California 4th. So please do shut the fuck up about "taxachusetts" - your taxes are LOWER than they were when you were in Commiefornia.
They "tax driving" everywhere. Roads are paid for from the primary source of taxes: state and federal income tax and local property taxe
what the f* (Score:1)
>'It is now evident that the impact of the tax is broader than any of us ever anticipated or intended,'
'It is now evident that there was no impact analysis done as the impact of the tax is broader than any of us ever anticipated or intended,'
There fixed that for you...
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More like "they raised/implemented multiple taxes and then subsequently repealed one." The gasoline tax hike was part of the same bill as the tax that was just repealed.
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The gasoline tax hike was part of the same bill as the tax that they are considering repealing.
Fixed that for myself.
Why elect representatives? (Score:1)
So... why was this tax a bad idea? (Score:1)
Am I correct in understanding that 'computer services' are exempt from sales taxe? If so, why? And why is it wrong to correct that?
Caught with... (Score:1)
So, if we can mobilize to get a tax break (Score:2)
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Because it won't work.
You can't wish a flood away, no more than you can wish the sky to be green.
The world is a global marketplace and there is nothing you can do to stop someone in India offering their services at a lower price than you.
Good job liberals (Score:2)
When will you learn? Discuss and debate bills first. And if you actually pass it make sure that everyone knows what the effects will be.
Seems like the liberals can't quite get this straight. Stimulus, Obamacare, IT services tax, etc... I guess Pelosi *was* right after all - we have to pass it so we can find out what is in it.
They changed their mind... (Score:1)