Google Gets Consumer Service Ultimatum From German Consumer Groups 351
An anonymous reader writes "Google received an ultimatum Thursday from German consumer organizations that want it to start answering questions from its users via email. The Federation of German Consumer Organizations (VZBV) has asked Google to sign an undertaking that it will provide customer service by responding individually to users questions sent by email, said Carola Elbrecht, VZBV's project manager for consumer rights in the digital world at the VZBV. Signing such a document would expose Google to fines if it breached the undertaking. On the other hand, said Elbrecht, 'If Google does not sign it, we're going to court.'"
You know... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Funny thing is Google do respond by email when it is needed. I reported a problem with the navigation product and an illegal right turn it directed me to do.
After a while i got an email saying i was right and it was fixed.
I think Google provides some of the best customer service in the world, after all i can ask them anything and they usually give me pages and pages of answers, heck they answer questions on subjects totally unrelated to google.
You can't fix stupid though no matter how many emails you send.
Re:You know... (Score:4, Informative)
after all i can ask them anything and they usually give me pages and pages of answers
Try asking them: Which personal information have you stored about me? Where did you get this information from? Whom did you share this information with? You see German law states that everyone owns his own personal information and that any company that stores or processes personal information must answer the questions I mentioned.
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I did:
https://www.google.de/search?q=datenschutzerkl%C3%A4rung+google&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb [google.de]
First hit:
http://www.google.de/intl/de/policies/privacy/ [google.de]
Re:You know... (Score:4, Informative)
I cannot know what information they have stored about me by reading their policy, because that would make it necessary for me to keep track of any single contact I have with Google, and obviously I wouldn't know what data was stored because someone used my computer, or used my name. I also wouldn't know if they made any mistakes and incorrectly attributed information of some other person to me. That's a good reason why they have to tell you what they stored about you, to give you a chance to make them correct any mistakes.
Re:You know... (Score:4, Informative)
Isn't that what Google dashboard is for?
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Why don't they commit to it then?
Because that would mean that they have to provide the same level of service as the OP got to any hooplehead that cannot find a search result, doesn't like what they find in a search result or is plain pebkac.
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"That doesn't sound entirely unreasonable."
If the German Consumer Organization would take a bit of their own medicine and answer their fucking emails as well.
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I think it does sound unreasonable.
At the moment they respond to most e-mails, but they have flexibility about it. They can choose.
If they sign it, they are legally obliged to respond. E-mail bombing? Every random idiotic thing? They have a legal obligation to reply individually.
This is precisely the type of government overreach that should NOT happen.
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From my experience, Google has quite good customer support. But only for their customers!
Customers, remember? That are those people that pay someone for goods or service....
And that service basically is the main selling point for their pro-grade services.
For all others, they offer at least user to user help forums.
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That doesn't sound entirely unreasonable.
If it pushes Google to have a bit more of a responsive front end to their customers, then... I'm ok with that.
Though I'd also see Google's side of it if they insisted on a GMail/G+ account to prove they are a valid customer and not MS spam bots!
The full article doesn't talk about "customers", it talks about "users". Why the hell should Google have to answer an email from some retard too stupid to use their search engine and needs "support".
I have no problem with Google being forced into actually providing contact details to people or companies who actually pay them money directly (ie: customers), but I am not so sure that is what is being suggested here. If the only business relationship I have with Google is that I use a free service they provide
Re:You know... (Score:5, Informative)
Sue them for breaking german law. The Telemediengesetz (German Teleservices Act) expressly demand that any service provider must provide direct contact methods.
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CUSTOMER support.
Unless you are PAYING google for some service, you are not a CUSTOMER.
If the law in Germany requires providers of FREE services to provide support (which is costly) to users of its free services, I suspect Google will shortly stop offering said free service to German users. (They might offer a paid service, or they might just not offering service completely)
Re:You know... (Score:4, Informative)
Wrong. Yes the law is valid and must be complied to even if your service is free. And make no mistake, Google is a multi-billion dollar company, not some charity organisation run by goodwill. They a huge company and can afford customer care.
Re:You know... (Score:5, Interesting)
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It's yet another US vs the world definition war.
Good to hear you're on OUR side.
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Re:You know... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have a gmail account, you are google's client and have agreed to their term of service. There is an exchange of benefits between you and Google even if money isn't directly exchanged. What matters is the exchange of consideration which is the equivalent of value.
I would contend that if you had to click through any term of service you can rightly claim you are a customer.
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Exactly. The guy was bashing Germans for being German. Obviously, he's an American, but there's a good chance that he himself is partly German, as are many Americans, and if not, there's very likely some English or French or other northern/western European there. I've never heard of it being "racist" for an Englishman to deride Germans, or for Germans to insult French, etc., since most people consider them all to be the same "race". These types of insults are nationalist, not racist.
What's next, calling
Can local laws dictate what Internet must do ? (Score:3)
Sue them for breaking german law
This begs a question ...
Can local laws dictate what Internet must do ?
What if country X has a law which states that *All information passing through our country must carry the slogal "THE QUEEN OF COUNTRY Y IS A BITCH"*, then what?
Should all the emails, PDF and whatnots that somehow pass through that country X have to carry that silly and provocative slogan??
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Should all the emails, PDF and whatnots that somehow pass through that country X have to carry that silly and provocative slogan??
Yes, of course they should. It's the law. If that's the law of the land, it doesn't matter if it's silly, you need to follow the law. Why wouldn't you?
Outside the borders of country X, you don't have to follow the silly law. But inside its borders, yes you do.
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Lest you have forgotten, Google is not based in Germany
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Wrong. The have offices in Germany. As such they operate in Germany and must comply to the law. The Google HQ is not of relevance.
Google Hamburg
Google Germany GmbH
ABC-Str. 19
20354 Hamburg
Deutschland
Telefon: +49 40-80-81-79-000
Fax: +49 40-4921-9194
Google München
Google Germany GmbH
Dienerstraße 12
80331 München
Deutschland
Google Germany Gmbh (Score:4, Informative)
Lest you forget Google is incorporated in almost every European country you can name.
Google Germany GmbH
ABC-Str. 19
20354 Hamburg
Deutschland
Telefon: +49 40-80-81-79-000
Fax: +49 40-4921-9194
Google München
Google Germany GmbH
Dienerstraße 12
80331 München
Deutschland
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Well, to contact Google in Germany, you could always just go to: http://www.google.de/contact/impressum.html [google.de]
E-Mail: support-de@google.com
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They sell advertising services to Germans though.
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They sell advertising services to Germans though.
And I bet that they provide email based customer service to those folks. It is really about whether any Joe Idiot should be able to email them when they can't find something in a search and expect an email reply.
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They sell advertising services to Germans though.
They sell Germans to advertising services though.
That is the real issue . . .
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Why should a company located in the USA obey german law? The fact that a service is avaiable to germans via the internet is NOT akin to "doing business in Germany". We've been over this hundreds of times. How would you like it if you had some service running in your country and accessible to the internet and I'd sue you because you don't comply with laws of MY country?
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Why should a company located in the USA obey german law? [...]
"With over 70 offices in more than 40 countries, chances are we’ve got opportunities near you. [google.de]"
Offices in Germany == subject to German law.
Pirating again (Score:2)
Fine, then why should I not just go pirate the latest [insert name of big US recording star here] if I am only violating US law and I am not a US citizen ?
We happen to live in a global world, Globalization is a fact that business will have to deal with. This includes American businesses aswell as Chinese, German and everyone else.
Agreed, court orders, mandates etc. will be difficult to enforce across national borders. that doesn't mean that a company doing business in a country wont comply with local laws t
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Fine, then why should I not just go pirate the latest [insert name of big US recording star here] if I am only violating US law and I am not a US citizen ?
That's not a great argument because there are international copyright laws. You'd wouldn't breaking US law, you'd be breaking your local law.
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CC,
Re:You know... (Score:4, Insightful)
No. Google has to "use it or leave". Comply toi german law or don't do business in Germany. Not the other way round.
A company doing business in the USA has to comply to the stupid COPA law or can't do business there. Simple. Just the same
Re:You know... (Score:4, Insightful)
Population of Germany - 81.7 million
Population of the world - 6973.7 million
I don't think losing Germany would make much of an impact.
Incorrect calculation.
GWP: 70,201 GUSD
GDP of Germany: 3,604 GUSD
I.E. Germany is about 5% of the world enconomy (for 1% of the population).
You don't just chuck away one dollar in every 20.
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Re:You know... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, but we get more services from our governments:
"Free" healthcare
Roads that aren't essentially gravel/one giant pothole
Bridges that are safe to cross.
You know - all that good stuff
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Probably not - yet. Germany are probably using this a test case before going after Microsoft, Apple and any others.
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You are missing the point. Google wants their users to be the product. German law states otherwise. Guess who's opinion will prevail in court.
Google must be more responsive (Score:3, Informative)
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Quite right - I'm very reluctant to make more use of Google's services than I do because I know that it is practically impossible to get a response from the company if anything goes wrong.
Disclosure: I'm a volunteer, non-paid active user in a Google user support forum, therefore slightly biased pro-google.
But that's the exact reason why even I advise AGAINST using the free Google services for business or anything important. That's the reason why there are GoogleApps, targetting professional users.
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And as a user of paid pro Google Apps I can tell you, they are impossible to get to respond on the phone or by e-mail! Especially in an outage.
I understand. "All of your users' are without service. The power is out. They're calling now." There is literally nothing you can do for me after you pick up the phone. Your time is much better spent getting the service back up for everyone affected.
But when something goes wrong with a public-facing Google Docs form and it's not fixing itself, or what else you
I don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
They're demanding a level of service for something they're getting for free? Really?
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
It is not free. You are paying with your privacy and helping them build one of the largest and most interesting databases in the world. If they believe they have any right to do anything with any of your data, this must stem from a claim that there is some sort of contract. If the end user has no way to contact Google (beyond getting a formulaic donotreply-email), he or she has no way to force Google to uphold their end. Without such measures, the contact cannot be binding, and without any attempt to allow the user such measures, Google could even be acting in bad faith.
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Just because I can use many services from Google without paying money doesn't mean that they are free.
Google is a for profit company, of course they gain something by offering their services.
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Google have an email address. They do respond to emails. Jane Doe isn't forced to sign a contract that will fine her if she doesn't respond in time. Why should Google be forced?
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Yes, exactly: No company should provide a service that they can not sustain while complying with the law.
I always thought that's why you make a business plan before starting an enterprise: To make sure that you can actually do it.
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Yes, exactly: No company should provide a service that they can not sustain while complying with the law.
I always thought that's why you make a business plan before starting an enterprise: To make sure that you can actually do it.
If there are any fines against Google, they can be collected from the German company, and probably from any Google branch in the EU. I bet they can also be collected from anyone who pays money to Google in the EU. So even if Google was solely a US company, they would be forced to pay.
Now if you can't run your business while complying with the laws due to cost, you'll go bankrupt. We'd see how Microsoft would be doing with Bing.
I like this idea. (Score:4)
For quite a long time, Google Groups would let you add people to a group, then set the group to private, making it impossible to view the group or file a complaint, but Google ignored email complaints, claiming they had a web form. They still have absolutely no mechanism for reporting spam sent by their customers who aren't using a gmail address to send the spam. And they just don't care.
They have either given up entirely on "don't be evil", or not thought through the implications of being extremely large and very careless.
Re:I like this idea. (Score:4, Informative)
Google never had customer service for non-paying users. And they've been a privacy nightmare for as long as I remember. Do you think a company that hires so many PhDs hasn't thought through the implications of their decisions? The "don't be evil" ship sailed a long time ago.
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Do you think a company that hires so many PhDs hasn't thought through the implications of their decisions?
I guess I missed the common sense class that apparently everybody else had to take when I was in grad school. A PhD does not guarantee that somebody thinks through the consequences of their decisions. In fact, most PhD research requires incredibly myopic thinking.
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Can the same be applied to the German Government? (Score:2)
I don't live in Germany but if it is at all like the US you won't get anything except a form email if you email your representative or Senator.
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I don't live in Germany
In Germany, you get a personal email from Oberhauptstabswebelausbilder Hakan Schulz, saying:
"Du kommst hier nicht rein!"
It seems reasonable but could be abused (Score:3)
Easy fix for free or cheap service; paid support. (Score:2)
Works for RHEL, Easyjet...
"Want a personalised answer to your email; sure, that's $50, or just upgrade to our 'business' option for only $25 per user, per year".
I suppose the counter-arguement could go that google's services are not really "free" for their consumers, since they are already 'paying' by viewing ads and supplying their personal data.
This is NOT about customer service (Score:3)
If you provide a webservice - especially a commercial one - you are required to prominently display valid identity and contact information, including ways that provide quick and immediate ways to communicate with you (the laws especially mentions/requires "electronic post" ).
The background of that German law isn't really about forcing companies to provide customer service (besides making it clear who your business partner is - you have to be able to get hold of whoever is behind a website in case you pay them and they don't deliver).
You have to think about it more in terms of DMCA/cease&desist/law enforcement and it might make more sense to Americans:
"Oh, that DMCA complaint about some user using our service to provide a Super Bowl livestream? That went to our post box on the Bahamas. Three weeks later when it arrived at the main office and out internal mail processing had delivered it to our tech department, they immediately took down the stream."
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Downside to that is the law applies to all German companies, not just business who publish under .de domains. .XX then you have to deal with the laws that cover .XX's users even if they are not paying for it as a .XX user.
Additionally it is about Consumers, so one could say you register in the US, but the company has a presence and users in
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or for German customers to switch to Bing or Yahoo or some other free service.
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This will be a test case for Germany. Depending on the outcome (which I expect Google to lose), then all the companies - MS, Yahoo, Apple etc - will have to comply or face their own day in court, potentially with even bigger fines that what Google may well be facing.
Re:Customer are people who pay money. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's far from free. You simply pay with your personal information instead of your wallet.
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You simply pay with your personal information instead of your wallet.
Awesome! Then I am like totally ripping them off every time I use Google!
My personal information ain't worth shit! Most folks would only pay money to get rid of me . . . not to get any personal information about me!
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You seem to forget that it's not just your (fake) profile data (e.g., "Name = Jack Wanker"), but the actual usage details as well (search, discussion topics, maps lookups, GPS data, ... ).
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So you mean they don't provide paid services?
Even if it is a free service, it is an undertaking. They cannot just leave customers (free or paid) to themselves without resolving problems that arise from the service.
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It's illegal to provide a service that doesn't do what you say it will.
I'm not completly sure about that.
It's definitly illegal to damage others by doing so, either by charging money for something you claim to do, or by any other action someone could feel damaged that's not reversible by just not using the service that doesn't do what it claims to do.
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Yes, you're right.
And that's why I'd recommend (but IANAL) Google to take this to court. Whatever measures they might take to avoid beeing taken to court by that consumer protection society might not be enough in someone elses eyes (or - heaven forbid - anti-competitive by giving even more free support that MS) and they may have to go there anyway.
Consumer protection laws and competition laws are so complicated by now, that that's the only way to know what you're supposed to do in the first place.
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They already offer GoogleApps that includes support.
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Yes they can leave customers to themselves if it is free, but they should provide the ability to have a support contract.
Maybe this would be a good revenue earner for them.
if they would stop collecting data they could do that. but they do, so they must provide contacts.
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Re:what ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well apparently the law in Germany says you can't provide a service without having a method for customers to contact the provider directly. And why not? Why would it be so strange to be able to call Google up with a question or send them an e-mail and get a response?
UK also (Score:5, Insightful)
UK law also has a similar provision in the UK's E-Commerce Regulations [out-law.com] (scroll down to Minimum information to be provided). Google does not comply, I talked to a Google employee who told me, something like, that it was not convenient/efficient and that I should use a web form.
I don't like putting questions via web form since I don't get to keep a copy as I do when I send email.
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I haven't seen the local laws, but I doubt they dictate the method of communication to be used. I think what they would take issue with is not providing any way to submit questions at all. The only thing Google provides is forums to post questions on, with no commitment that they will get a response, and no way to submit questions in privacy. That is something that probably would not be deemed sufficient if there were a law requiring some level of responsiveness to questions..
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Re:what ? (Score:4, Interesting)
Well apparently the law in Germany says you can't provide a service without having a method for customers to contact the provider directly.
But does the law require the use of any specific technological method? (It would seem pretty dumb if that was the case, as technologies do change.) Would a variation on an online forum where users can elect to not have their questions be public and where there is someone (or several people) dedicated to answering the questions be an acceptable solution? After all, for virtually anything where you are dealing with Google at all, you'd be online and so able to use a web forum.
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I wonder if their laws dictate how good the response is?
Imagine Google created a simple AI that answered all questions in email. Would they be happy with that?
Or what if they assigned 2 people to handle all email responses in the country?
Re:Anything that states it has to be free? (Score:5, Insightful)
The annoying entitled freeloaders are simply asking for what they are entitled to under local laws.
If Google (or anyone else) doesn't like it they're free to stop doing business in that locality; it is their choice to weigh up the benefits and costs of operating there but if they do choose to do so then they must abide by local laws.
Are you saying to take into account the costs is not a valid thought process?
I suspect that a company as big and successful as Google is well aware of the costs of doing business and, as they are continuing to operate there, have assessed them as being worth bearing.
In a nutshell, if you work in country X you must obey the laws there - no matter how big or self important you see yourself; the cultural imperialism of your home country's attitudes to laws and business are quite frankly irrelevant. If I set up a business in the US deliberately flouting the laws (e.g. selling Cuban cigars) I'd expect to get some trouble from the law, even if my main offices were located in a separate country.
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"Entitled to", how? What did you do to deserve this free service, and expectation to get more free service in the way of a written response?
Yes, I understand it's your local law, and they're free to not do business there. But, how would you handle a company that doesn't have a presence?
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"Entitled to", how? What did you do to deserve this free service, and expectation to get more free service in the way of a written response?...Yes, I understand it's your local law, and they're free to not do business there. But, how would you handle a company that doesn't have a presence?
They certainly collect money from local advertisers even if they don't charge users for the service. That gives them quite a few ties to the community, and they're conducting business within Germany's jurisdiction.
As others have pointed out Google even has offices and data centers there, but I think that should be beside the point. If this were a US-centric operation that happens to let some people elsewhere use it for free I could see your point. However, when you start collecting revenue from within a
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Unfortunately, you didn't answer the question that was asked. Yes, the advertisers paid, and I could understand if they expected something in return. But, how can you claim an entitlement that you gave nothing to get?
I've read the argument that you're giving up privacy. Well, nobody is twisting anyone's are to force them to use this free service.
I'm not trying to argue that they, or anyone else should be exempt from local laws, only the logic, or lack there of behind it.
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The annoying entitled freeloaders are simply asking for what they are entitled to under local laws.
A free search engine?
A free email account?
Free online Office software?
Has to be a different europe than the one I know.
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Google response: In accordance with the ToS you agreed to, that information is the property of Google and we can do whatever we damned well feel like. Go ahead, sue us. We have more lawyers than you.
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I have bad news for you: There are laws in Germany that govern what data about customers a company may collect and that and how it has to answer questions of its customers about stored data.
And unlike in the US, a company can not force the customer to give up his rights by means of a TOS.
The law stipulates that certain rights can not be taken away by contract.
These laws are meant to remove some of the inequality that we have between big companies with well paid lawyers and a customer with less knowledge abo
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I think I like German law. And beer.
Too bad that American privacy laws, and most beers, suck.
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As compared to the US gouvernment doing what companys want them to do?
You should check your social science textbooks once more whose job it is to make laws.
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Well if you can't tax them directly because they are tax dodging companies, how else are they going to make the companies play fair?
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Does it has to be typed by a human? If so what's preventing me from launching a DDOS attack against any company by generating tens of thousands of emails to customer support and asking for a response?
German laws, which would make you responsible for the damage caused. Once you are found, you would be charged with the cost of replying to each email. They'd find other things to charge you with if you were a competitor.
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Gernay has rules about how much you can charge for phone hotlines, AND you have to tell up front how expensive a call is.
I know it is hard to understand for some Americans who are used to a system where companies get away with practically everything they want, but here in Europe laws do actually protect the rights of the little man/consumer, not always but often enough.
And no, this doesn't mean that companies can not do business anymore, it just means that they have to calculate certain costs that they don'