UK Government To Use PayPal For Identity Assurance 74
judgecorp writes "A UK government contract has confirmed earlier reports that British citizens will have the option to use PayPal to accredit themselves for public services such as the new Universal Credit benefit system. Using PayPal might be a public relations goof, as PayPal's parent eBay is notoriously clever at avoiding UK taxes, recently paying only £1.2 million on profit of £789 million (around 0.15 percent)."
All banks do it. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not their fault, it's the Parliament making crappy laws, albeit most of them are lawyers, they either suck or are bought.
Paypal is a bank and like all banks they avoid paying taxes like the pest.
"Barclays Bank told by Treasury to pay £500m avoided tax"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17181213 [bbc.co.uk]
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/10/18/banks-to-avoid-19bn-tax-bill-despite-bailout/ [liberalconspiracy.org]
http://goodbanking.org.uk/archives/684 [goodbanking.org.uk]
Re:All banks do it. (Score:5, Informative)
PayPal (Europe) S.Ã r.l. et Cie, S.C.A. is duly licenced as a Luxembourg credit institution in the sense of Article 2 of the law of 5 April 1993 on the financial sector as amended and is under the prudential supervision of the Luxembourg supervisory authority, the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier, with registered office in L-1150 Luxembourg.
PayPal is NOT a bank (Score:2, Insightful)
Hmm... strange. If you Google a bit for a list of banks in Luxembourg, PayPal does not appear on any of those lists. Can't find a BIC [wikipedia.org] for PayPal either. Which is not surprising, really.
If a (Dutch) bank where I have an account folds, my government guarantees the money in my account. At least up to a big minimum, in the order of 100k Euro or so (perhaps more, I dunno). Example: when Icelandic banks folded, the Dutch government covered losses for Dutch account holders. Perhaps except a few that had very la
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PPLXLULL XXX PAYPAL EUROPE, S.A R.L ET CIE, S.C.A. LUXEMBOURG LU
That's cool and all - I've learned how to look up a bank in Europe. Now, what can a guy do with that code? Is it what we would call a "routing code" here in the states? A routing code would prefix your account number on a check, or deposit slip, ensuring that the money was deposited or withdrawn from the correct account, no matter where in the world you might make the deposit or withdrawal.
Re:PayPal is NOT a bank (Score:4, Informative)
Not just Europe -- the SWIFT system is used internationally, you can look up US banks on the same website. It only identifies the institution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9362 [wikipedia.org]
An IBAN identifies an account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_13616 [wikipedia.org]
On my online banking (British account), if I were to transfer money to a US account I need the SWIFT code and the account number (and addresses). To transfer money to an Austrian account I need the IBAN and (for some reason) the SWIFT code, but not any other numbers.
(Only the local number is printed on my cheques -- of which I've used one in the last four years -- but the SWIFT code and IBAN are printed on all my statements, and also online.)
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Paypal is an electronic money issuer, not a bank, so covered by different regulations. Balances held with Paypal are not covered by the Luxembourg equivalent of FSCS or FDIC as they would be if they were a bank. However the money does have to be kept in a separate ring-fenced account, which banks are not required to do.
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In 2007, PayPal Europe was granted a Luxembourg banking license, which, under European Union law, allows it to conduct banking business throughout the EU. It is therefore regulated as a bank by Luxembourg's banking supervisory authority, the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier (CSSF).
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In the US, PayPal is registered with the state governments as a money transfer agent.
The UK's FSA lists them as follows
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/firmPassports.do?sid=189419 [fsa.gov.uk]
Passports for:
470235 - PayPal (Europe) Sarl et Cie SCA
List of credit institutions able to exercise passporting rights in relation to activity 15 (issuing electronic money) of the Banking Directive.
Home State Regulator Directive
LUXEMBOURG BCD Inward Service
Activity Name
1 - Acceptance of deposits and other repayable funds from th
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For comparison, here's what a bank registration looks like
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/firmPassports.do?sid=77499 [fsa.gov.uk]
Passports for:
149243 - Svenska Handelsbanken AB (Publ)
List of credit institutions able to exercise passporting rights in relation to activity 15 (issuing electronic money) of the Banking Directive.
Home State Regulator Directive
SWEDEN BCD Inward Branch
Activity Name
1 - Acceptance of deposits and other repayable funds from the public
10 - Money broking
11 - Portfolio management and advice
14 -
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The problem is that PayPal accounts are not considered current accounts and not regulated like a normal bank account. For example your rights over not having your money arbitrarily frozen don't apply, and the protections against loss that bank accounts enjoy also do not apply.
They are a credit institution, not a consumer bank as most people would understand it.
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eBay is not a bank.
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eBay is not a bank.
Nor is my Ford Fiesta.
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The summary clearly says eBay (parent of PayPal) is dodging taxes in the UK. The comment was about all banks doing it. If the comment was about all auction houses doing it, or all merchants doing it. It would have been relevant.
I feel sad to have to explain this.
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The summary clearly says eBay (parent of PayPal) is dodging taxes in the UK. The comment was about all banks doing it. If the comment was about all auction houses doing it, or all merchants doing it. It would have been relevant. I feel sad to have to explain this.
eBay is not PayPal. I feel sad to have to explain this.
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I know, if you read my post, you will know that I know. What I do not know is what made you think I did not know.
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I am not sure. Did you read the GGGP post? If you did, you know, if not you dont (this assumes you have a reasonable reading comprehension and are reasonably proficient in English). No, I dont know that you know I know you know.
PS: This is fun.
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Some unspecified slice of a £25 million pie.
I think the UK government is too eager by a large factor to be "digital by default" (also a buzzword of theirs) and in fact is willing to, well, lose control over most of their vital governmental services over it. And of course that involves shelling out yet more dosh to random corporations that look hip and big enough. So expect cost overruns shortly. The corporations on the government's shortlist generally aren't bereft of payment, no.
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Are you trolling? You're trolling right? Because, pretty much everything you say is the exact opposite of what this article is about. The previous system was the costly one, this is about reducing cost. The companies are hardly random (read the list!) The requirements and processes seem to be well thought out, at least from what I've gathered from the RSDOPS [cabinetoffice.gov.uk]
. (Really about 35 pages worth of pretty clear explanation and 10 you can skip.)
I mean, if you want to criticize Paypal, there are plenty of good reason
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The previous system was the costly one, this is about reducing cost.
Because we all know how good the UK government is at reducing costs, especially when they decide to outsource to the private sector (which is more or less what this is). Just look at the rail network...
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Indeed. This definitely has absolutely nothing to do with top politicians' share portfolios. Also, giving control of vital government services and lots of public money to random for-profit interests is definitely not congruent at all with the ideologies of the two ruling parties. Not at all.
More interesting than tax rate (Score:5, Insightful)
Far more interesting than their effective tax rate would be how much of that money was stolen from their users?
These folks love to freeze accounts and sieze money for any reason they can find. Paypal should be regulated as a bank.
Re:More interesting than tax rate (Score:5, Insightful)
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PayPal actually thinks someone else is me. They got into my eBay and PayPal accounts years ago and although eBay sorted everything out PayPal wouldn't accept what had happened. They are the same company, eBay owns PayPal, but even so they are convinced this other guy is me and there is nothing I can do to convince them otherwise.
I even involved the Financial Services Authority and they couldn't get it sorted. If the government accepted PayPal as an accredited form of identification this person could access
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WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
And when paypal puts your account on hold or someone deletes it then what?
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You no longer exist.
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Ebay is not free.
They get paid for every completed sale.
They also get paid for advertising on the eBay site, for the actions of their subsidiary Paypal, and other money-raising activities in the UK.
Just what everyone needs..... (Score:2)
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After reading your comment, I went to check out the registration form. Looks like anyone can register as an UK citizen in Paypal. How is this "identity assurance" at all?
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I don't think so. If all those white boys choose to be peter puffers, while all the rest of the world is screwing the women, then the white boys deserve to die off. Get it on, Adam and Steve, don't worry about all those brown folk. Give it another couple generations, and you'll be forgotten.
How does this work with the USA Patriot Act ? (Score:2)
So the Gov't of the USA will now get to know every time I identify myself to my own government ? What the hell as Francis Maude been smoking -- a politician that must have actually inhaled.
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I assumed that he was referring to the agreement between the US and the UK. The US is not supposed to spy on US citizens. The UK supposedly doesn't spy on UK citizens. But, they long ago agreed to permit each other to spy on the other nation's citizens, then share what they know.
So, yeah, every time a UK citizen identifies to a UK business or agency via PayPal, the US is going to see it, and report it, assuming that one or both nations has an "interest" in that citizen.
Why is everyone so hung up on taxes? (Score:1)
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Look, if the tax rates were reasonable, you wouldn't see people going to extremes to avoid paying them.
bull and fucking shit bud. it is a speciality of those on high incomes to flat out do their utmost to avoid ANY taxation not matter the tax rate,hence the offshore schemes.
what planet have you been living on as it seems you have only recently moved here?
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bull and fucking shit bud. it is a speciality of those on high incomes to flat out do their utmost to avoid ANY taxation not matter the tax rate,hence the offshore schemes. what planet have you been living on as it seems you have only recently moved here?
Just saying man, countries with reasonable tax rates (3%-5%) don't have these problems. It's simple business logic, and you can watch it play out time and time again. If it costs more to configure a tax avoidance scheme (pricey to begin with, especially the one Google uses) that it does to just pay the things, then paying taxes becomes worth while. Incidentally, what's wrong with avoiding taxes if you're not breaking the law to do so?
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So you think that a tax rate of less than 5% is reasonable. Reasonable for what? Dunno which country you are in, but a country has to provide services somehow. The lower the tax rate, the lower the quality of the services.
Personally I would rather pay more and have a fairer and more equitable society.
What is wrong with avoiding paying taxes? What is wrong with paying your fair share under any circumstances? It is ethically wrong. The problem is that the law is an ass, and is so complicated that people with
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So you think that a tax rate of less than 5% is reasonable. Reasonable for what? Dunno which country you are in, but a country has to provide services somehow. The lower the tax rate, the lower the quality of the services.
That's absolutely not true. There are countries with low and even non-existent tax corporate rates that have civil societies, where the citizens do just fine. Hong Kong and Singapore come to mind. Ireland has a very low corporate tax rate relative to England or France and they do just fine. The only thing higher taxes pay for is more pointless excess in government. More waste, more unneeded unaccountable agencies, and cool gadgets that an ever more draconian system is using to take away more of your liberti
Joy! I don't exist (Score:5, Interesting)
Paypal have me blacklisted and refuse to take payments from me.
Tried buying something last week, seller's website said "VISA/Mastercard" so I used my credit card. Refused. Used my other credit card. Refused. Checked with both card companies: Neither had been asked to authorise payment.
Got a friend to buy on my behalf. He paid with credit card; got a bill from PayPal.
It all goes back to the first time I tried using my card to buy something online from a seller that used Paypal for their card payments. I entered my details, was told payment had been taken, then got an email asking me to provide details for my Paypal account.
I said no. Then I found out that Paypal had already debited my card, but were holding onto the cash instead of sending it through to the seller.
So I wrote to them telling them to send the money through. They refused. So I wrote to them telling them to give my money back. They refused. So I contacted VISA, the OFT and my card supplier stating fraudulent activity.
I got my money back. Paypal blacklisted me. Not a major problem really, except for idiots that use them as their sole card payment solution.
I need to hit them with a SAR, find out what their system says about me. But using them to ID myself to the Government? Not a fucking hope. Which is frankly a good thing.
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Chuckle. Same problem here :D
Had PayPal many years ago. Let the account sit idle for a while, then ultimately decided to close it out since I no longer used it.
Tried to close it out, and met a brick wall.
In order to "close" out my account, I needed to provide PayPal with my phone number, bank account info, and a few other pieces of
information they didn't have on me. To which I thought " Why the hell would I give you my other info if I'm trying to CLOSE the account ? "
I told them no, they told me they wou
Trust (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would anyone trust a company that pretends to be a bank, but is not regulated like a bank, and so can disappear your money in an instant and leave you whistling in the wind for YOUR money? Did the government somehow find if difficult to find a company more trusted?
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Why would anyone trust a company that pretends to be a bank, but is not regulated like a bank, and so can disappear your money in an instant and leave you whistling in the wind for YOUR money? Did the government somehow find if difficult to find a company more trusted?
Maybe eBay finally acquired the UK government?
PayPal became a mostly mandatory form of payment after eBay bought PayPal...
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Clearly this is where it's going (Score:1)
I have few dealings with Paypal, but whenver I think of them, this comes to mind: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/04/paypal-buyer-destroys-violin [guardian.co.uk]
Speaking as a Brit, I would gladly stand up against this, like many others no doubt, but since when did Government put something forward for our opinion and actually consider it? They just throw money at advisers to decide for them
wait a minute (Score:2)
Could be popular (Score:1)
For better or worse, I could see this being liked by the general public. At present, government sites all require you to have a "Government Gateway" username and password. The password strength requirements are understandably quite strict, but what is really annoying is the usernames are automatically generated and completely unmemorable (mine is something like F093KHV894JMNB - I made that up, but you get the idea). If it was a site I access every day then I might remember, but once a year for to do my tax