YouTube Refuses To Remove Anti-Islamic Film Clip 622
Hugh Pickens writes "BBC reports that Google officials have rejected the notion of removing a video that depicts the prophet as a fraud and philanderer and has been blamed for sparking violence at U.S. embassies in Cairo and Benghazi. Google says the video does not violate YouTube's policies, but they did restrict viewers in Egypt and Libya from loading it due to the special circumstances in the country. Google's response to the crisis highlighted the struggle faced by the company, and others like it, to balance free speech with legal and ethical concerns in an age when social media can impact world events. 'This video – which is widely available on the Web – is clearly within our guidelines and so will stay on YouTube,' Google said in a statement. 'However, given the very difficult situation in Libya and Egypt, we have temporarily restricted access in both countries.' Underscoring Google's quandary, some digital free expression groups have criticized YouTube for censoring the video. Eva Galperin of the Electronic Frontier Foundation says given Google' s strong track record of protecting free speech, she was surprised the company gave in to pressure to selectively block the video. 'It is extremely unusual for YouTube to block a video in any country without it being a violation of their terms of service or in response to a valid legal complaint,' says Galperin. 'I'm not sure they did the right thing.'"
It's already out there... (Score:5, Insightful)
... google taking it down wouldn't help at this point.
Copyright (Score:5, Insightful)
If only the religious zealots realized all they had to do was lodge a false DMCA claim through a bot...
Great Response... (Score:5, Insightful)
Restrict the video only in places where they can't handle the freedom of speech without maniacal violence. Google got it right for the first time in a while.
Good. They're keeping it up. (Score:5, Insightful)
Google is showing some spine. Good.
I've seen the movie. It's not very well produced, but it's better than 80% of the non-pirated stuff on YouTube.
Good (Score:5, Insightful)
"ethical concerns" (Score:5, Insightful)
Either you have free speech or you do not. "Ethical concerns" is a thinly veiled word for "censor that which offends us".
The Onion [theonion.com] has this pegged...
Let it be seen.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Here is a video of an Egyptian Muslim leader tearing up and burning a Bible [weaselzippers.us]... No signs of Christians throwing a tantrum...
FYI, the Innocence of Muslims movie is also available on LiveLeak [liveleak.com] and other sites.
bla bla (Score:2, Insightful)
Cue a hundred posts on how awful Islam is, even though this is just a pretext for more hatred for the Middle East and distraction from the way the elite classes are behaving at home. Cue a dozen people mourning about the loss of another spoilt diplomat who did the nasty government's bidding while hundreds of US soldiers continue to be engaged in unnecessary military activities and civilians continue to either be killed or to die from lack of resources.
Yes, Islam is silly.
Yes, it's just like all dogma in this respect, whether or not accompanied by a sky fairy.
Yes, Mohammed was just some strategically brilliant warmonger with an ego.
But don't allow yourself to be riled up like the desperate fools who are encouraged to violently protest just so their behaviour can be used against them.
Re:Good. They're keeping it up. (Score:5, Insightful)
I haven't seen it, and, frankly, I don't even care what's in it. But if it provokes this kind of reaction from religious fanatics, it's done right.
Re:So your telling me... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, people died because of religious fanaticism. The video was just a largely inconsequential trigger for the current round of violence. But even if said video wasn't there, they'd find another reason.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Copyright (Score:2, Insightful)
Who modded this funny? Mod it +5 Insightful / +5 Informative.
Icing on the cake (Score:5, Insightful)
Despite Qadaffi's efforts to appease the West in recent years, as soon as he became vulnerable, the US urged NATO to help overthrow the Libyan government. Air strikes, drone strikes, CIA officers on the ground coordinating attacks - the largest military power in the world overthrew the government of this small country - a government which has been making concession after concession to the West in recent years. Apparently not enough. Can anyone imagine the US ambassador in Libya getting blown up if the US hadn't bombed the Libyan government out of existence, working to put its own regime in? You play with fire you get burned.
Imperialism, foreign intervention, torturing Muslims in Abu Ghraib - forcing them to masturbate to the videotaped laughs of sadistic American soldiers, drone attacks, puppet governments, financing the Zionist siege of Gaza - this is what the US is doing to Muslims. Then Korans are burned, put in toilets, mocking videos are made just to rub it in. Then Americans get all indignant that their mockeries of an almost-conquered people are not taken in a light-hearted fashion.
The real question is why is the US over there, why were they bombing Libya and arming the people who overthrew their government. If I was a Libyan patriot, and I knew US insults to Islam would help rally Libyans in an anti-imperial campaign, of course I'd use that. Libyans are responding to everything the US has done to it. The Marines hymn "from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli" refers to US interference in Tripoli going back to the beginning of the 19th century. None of this can be discussed of course, so it all becomes about religion, when really it has little to do with religion. Middle class Muslim Turks are nor burning down embassies. Americans are more gullible and steeped in imperial propaganda then any Muslim is in guile to religious ideas - not that Americans should talk, as the country is crawling with fundamentalist Christianity more than any other industrialized nation.
Why are "these people" not responsible? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's amazing how much and how often things that "incite violence" are held responsible, but the people doing the violence aren't responsible?
Sorry, but forget the "cause" because this is merely an insult at best. Nothing excuses killing and destruction in response to a mere insult. If you can't contain yourself after being angered in this way, you should be destroyed in the most literal sense of the word.
Unfortunately... (Score:5, Insightful)
The rioters were angry before the video was posted. The video was nothing more than an excuse (perhaps to themselves) for this sort of behavior; it could just as easily have been a book, idiotic comments by some preacher, a bomb dropped by the air force hitting a day school, etc. I doubt that most of the rioters had even heard of the video prior to hearing of riots elsewhere, and I doubt that most of them have even seen the video.
Comment removed (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
And the world was populated through incest, polygamy is a-ok, slavery is dandy, and killing non-believers is supported. At least, that's what I get from a few passages in the Bible. What's your point again? That the Koran, like the Bible, is an origin myth massaged to also be a political and social guide to the world? Or that by pointing to the right verse, I can support whatever I want?
Terrible precedent (Score:5, Insightful)
Either we have free speech, or we do not have free speech. If Google is going to be the service provider for an important communications medium, they need to respect free speech. The video did not say, "Go out and riot." People who were already angry saw the video and exploded.
The Chinese government claims their censorship is to keep the peace as well. How ironic for Google to follow that same logic, after all they went through with China...
Re:So your telling me... (Score:2, Insightful)
No, people died because of religious fanaticism coupled with decades of American Imperialism.
FTFY; let's call a duck a duck, shall we?
Re:Unfortunately... (Score:5, Insightful)
The religious zealots certainly would be content to see the videos removed
No they wouldn't. The video was just a vessel to guide their anger. And only one in a long succession at that. If the video had never been made they would have found some other reason to be offended.
Terrible Response (Score:5, Insightful)
Lets say you are some person in that country trying to make up your mind about how bad the video really is. Your religious neighbor says it is the worst form of blasphemy ever.
Pre Google Ban, you could have watched it and said "well this sucks and is stupid, why should I care about this?"
Now they have no choice but to believe the neighbor, perhaps go out and protest as a result.
Blocking the truth from view never makes things better, especially in a situation where so many seek to inflate the importance of a single video.
May be an internal matter within Islam (Score:5, Insightful)
One school of thought on this is that the violence is an attempt by one of the more militant branches of Islam to get attention.
The real cause of riots in Egypt is a steadily declining standard of living since Egypt hit peak oil in 1996. Oil production has declined 45% since 1996.
sam Harris doesn't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
I love Harris and Dawkins. But they don't get it. They think that religious belief can be disputed on a rational level.
It cannot.
Religion appeals to our emotional primitive brain. That is why you have people who can build atom bombs and understand the physics of it still believe in the Biblical god. They have the intellectual ability - more than I - to dispute on rational and logical grounds why the Biblical God is as likely to exist as the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus, and yet they do.
And it's just not the Biblical God. Humans are predsposed to have magical thoughts. Whether it's making a deal with the Universe, Karma, or anything else for a better life or what have you. It's our brain that want's to see patterns where none exist it's our brains unable to accept that this is all there is. There must be something more to life than eating, fucking and shitting. Hence, for modern people the stubborn belief in God and other superstitions.
Re:It's already out there... (Score:5, Insightful)
... google taking it down wouldn't help at this point.
Doesn't matter anyway, most of these protesters are taking it word of mouth from word of mouth from word of mouth. Few have likely seen it. Few even stop to consider if it even has merit (being seen to think for yourself can be hazardous to your health in some circles.)
It is unfortunate, but nothing new to Christians who have seen their faith run through the artistic expression and philosophical (to say nothing of the internet trolling) wringers. Perhaps there would be some good if it got some people to think, but see above. The people who tell these people to be angry like their control over them.
Re:Let it be seen.. (Score:3, Insightful)
No signs of Christians throwing a tantrum...
No, all it takes for Christians to throw a tantrum is the existence of a doctor's office:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence [wikipedia.org]
As for Muslims, what delicate sensibilities would you be referring to? I look around my town and I see Muslims going about their business, not killing anyone or burning anything. Do you think they have not heard of the video? What, are they a different kind of Muslim? Some of my Muslim friends moved to America from the very countries where these riots are happening and I have at least a few very orthodox Muslim friends who are not rioting.
The issue here is not any specific religion. Muslims in America are not watching police crackdowns, they are not seeing foreign occupying forces in their lands, they did not have their government replaced with a brutal dictatorship which was then overthrown by another brutal dictatorship, etc. Life in America is nice; they have no reason to be angry, and they take offensive remarks about their religion the same way I do (and trust me, as a Jew, I see plenty of offensive things on the Internet), by shrugging it off and calling the people who made those remarks idiots.
If those countries where the riots are happening were nice places to live, there would be no riots, regardless of this video.
Re:Great Response... (Score:2, Insightful)
Islam is just "version 3" of the same desert fairy tales that Christians and Jews believe in. Many of the "opponents" to Islam are just the deluded worshipers of the other two not liking the competition.
Re:Let it be seen.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Only a handful of people protest abortion clinics. How many have actually been killed - a tiny number.
Meanwhile with Muslims you have whole nations rising in anger, wars being fought with hundreds of thousands dead. To claim the two equivalent in any way is sickening.
Re:Unfortunately... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, the religious zealots are not the problem here. Religious zealots are a minority, both of the rioters and in general.
If the rioters are not religious zealots, what exactly are they rioting about?
The video was nothing more than an excuse (perhaps to themselves) for this sort of behavior
Anyone who uses offense to their religion as an excuse to commit violence is a religious zealot.
I doubt that most of them have even seen the video.
That's even worse. If "hey, I heard some guy in another country made a video that insults our prophet" is enough to get you to storm the embassy and murder people, that's not just religious zealotry that's extreme religious zealotry.
There is more to this than the video (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing excuses killing and destruction in response to a mere insult
Funny how American Muslims, even orthodox Muslims, are not rioting, even now that they know about the video and presumably have had the chance to watch it.
Angry people do not need much to set them off, and the rioters have been angry for a long time. They live in awful places, they have seen multiple wars (no, not "seen" as in "live from a foreign country," but actually seen tanks rolling down their streets and bombs dropping from planes), and most have not lived under any sort of democratic system. The video was just a spark, and it just happened to be right next to a crate full of dynamite.
Re:Good (Score:0, Insightful)
I'm getting tired of all the hassle the arabs/muslims are causing to the rest of the world, why should we deal with it? at some point, enough is enough. The world is a giant playground, they have shown time and time again that they can't play well with others, it's time to kick them off the playground.
Re:Unfortunately... (Score:5, Insightful)
Further, in what other culture can an insult to a long dead religious figure trigger riots and murder?
Criticize a dead Pope? Get in line.
Criticize Buda? You get tolerant smiles.
Criticize a Rabbi, living or dead? Yiddish curses.
Criticize L Ron Hubbard? hmmmm, lemmie think about that one.
But muhammad? people have to die for that, any people, just kill someone.
Re:Unfortunately... (Score:5, Insightful)
Riots are infectious. You can easily generate a whole mob to riot with some encouragement. After all, last year we had a huge riot in Vancouver, Canada over a hockey game. Or so they claim.
None of the list are true (when you have bunch of kids wearing $300+ clothes...) - it was just a riot fueled by alcohol and a bunch of drunken idiots who felt like having a good time destroying stuff. It was, as they say, remarkably easy. And once it started, others poured in to join in the fun.
All you need is someone to go apeshit and others will follow. Hell, who knows why the riot started - perhaps afterwards someone claimed they rioted because of the video - finding the reason after the fact to justify what they did.
But just let .... (Score:5, Insightful)
Just have the Muslims copyright Mohammad's image. Problem solved.
Re:Just let them kill each other, then we get peac (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree if you talk at all the people believing in the same God. You know, Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Yes, cause they are all the same. I remember fondly when Viacom and Fox were razed to the ground and the CEO's raped, killed and dragged through the streets by Catholics because of the way that Jesus was portrayed on SouthPark and Family Guy. And the nasty stuff that Jews did to Sarah Silverman and Seth MacFarlane before cutting off their heads for not just leaving Judaism, but ridiculing Jews and God.
Good thing that hating people for their religion is considered bigotry... well, except it is.
Re:So your telling me... (Score:4, Insightful)
No, people died because of religious fanaticism coupled with decades of American Imperialism.
FTFY; let's call a duck a duck, shall we?
Since we're quaking about the middle east, let's not leave the British & French out. Their decisions about how to divide the Ottoman empire has not helped. Nor the decision to create Israel.
Re:Idiots like you are the problem ... (Score:3, Insightful)
See imho religion itself isn't bad, people can believe what they want as far as I am concerned.
The problem is idiots. When you get idiots that start to use religion to justify their "being an idiot" then all hell breaks loose.
Every religion has got 'em. Even the Athiests :/
Re:It's already out there... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not about the Ed Woodesque film anyway. These folks would just find other reasons . . . real or imagined . . . to storm anything with a whiff of America about it.
"Hey, Abdul! America says, 'Tastes Great!' Islam says, 'Less Filling!' Let's riot!"
These folks are in a permanent state of outrage against the US. They are just looking for any reason whatsoever to vent their unfounded anger.
Sorry to break the news to you, America, but Islamic folks don't love you. Never have, never will.
Maybe if someone made a Reality TV Show about it, ordinary folks would finally understand this.
Movies don't start fires. (Score:5, Insightful)
The blame would be placed solely on the shoulders of the "bible thumpers or skinheads." It wouldn't be inappropriately misdirected at a movie trailer.
Re:It's already out there... (Score:4, Insightful)
"How would this play in the media if some guy in Saudi Arabia trolled a bunch of bible thumpers or skinheads into something horrible?"
Honestly, nobody would give a shit about some video from Saudi Arabia, and the U.S. would arrest and prosecute the bible thumpers and skinheads. It's not that hard.
Re:It's already out there... (Score:5, Insightful)
It IS pretty offensive.
It's also pretty damn hilarious. These protesters must be simply being told what to do, because I can't see anyone taking this seriously if they had actually seen it. Sure, the movie completely trashes Mohammed, but in the most cartoonish way possible. I liked the part where he was like "Everyone but Muslims must die" and then there's an explosion as he puts his sword up. Sort of like he's an action hero.
If they made the same sort of movie about Jesus, I probably wouldn't be able to stop laughing.
This is like if they made a sequel to Borat, but where he was teleported back to 7th Century Arabia and founded a religion.
Re:It's already out there... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's already out there... (Score:5, Insightful)
if i yell fire in a crowded theatre, people may trample and kill others motivated out of self-preservation. so me, the one shouted fire, i'm the one culpable
if i call mohammed a nasty word, and people start rioting and killing, they are motivated by religious extremism. do you believe a religious zealot who will kill because of his religion is a defensible position, like self-preservation? hell no! so where does the buck stop? with the religious zealot
if i insult your mother and you kill someone, who is culpable for the dead person? you? or me because i insulted my mother? do you see how crazy this gets?
at some point you have to learn to put proper blame where it is properly due
Re:Idiots like you are the problem ... (Score:4, Insightful)
For the last time, Atheism in NOT a religion, there is no deity involved
Re:It's already out there... (Score:5, Insightful)
Cuius regio, eius religio worked for another time. Censorship used to actually work. Now, it really doesn't, even where they try to implement it. That means that you can't keep the other countries' infectious ideas from getting in your own nice dictatorship and you can't keep your extremists from getting their hands on this stuff and inciting people over it either.
Other than that, I have to agree that certain liberties are earned by a lot of effort, frequently with blood involved. These people don't understand that the US Government does not go around telling people what they are allowed to say. That's something they are not used to in their own countries, so they believe that since the US Government allows it to exist, it is because the US Government supports it 100%.
They have a lot to learn about freedom of expression now that they have the chance at it. Some will hate the idea even when they see it in action and long for the days of a strongman to keep people in their places.
Re:It's already out there... (Score:3, Insightful)
Those people might well be alive today if that movie had not been released.
On the other hand, they may well have died tomorrow anyway, because this isn't happening because of this video, it's happening because there are people out there that want this to happen and they will find and use any excuse to make it happen. They are prepared and ready for anything they can use.
There are so many offensive things on YouTube to all sorts of people that I just don't think you can say, we'll take this down because you murdered someone. They weren't required to look at it, and for sure, they weren't required to kill anyone over it.
Re:It's already out there... (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh bullshit. The current dust up is merely an excuse for frustrated Muslims to show to Allah that somehow they are worthy for Heaven. And if Islam is going to be offended by freedom of speech, what does that tell you about Islam? If Allah is so fucking powerful and sacred and his Prophet so Holy, how come He doesn't, in his infinite power, deal with it Himself.
This is yet one more expression of Islamic arrogance. They want to dictate to the rest of the world the terms of other peoples thinking. Fuck'em, take a chill pill.
The word "gormless", the people, Muslims. They got trolled and are now feeding the troll.
Re:It's already out there... (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you have any sympathy for those that were killed by the army of crazy?
If you had the power to not release that video, and the knowledge that the people would die, would you have saved their lives by not uploading the video?
I would save their lives by warning them to be armed to the teeth and prepared to turn the army of crazy into an army of corpses. Anyone who reacts to an expression of opinion by resorting to violence deserves no less, and the rest of the world deserves better than to have to live in danger because of them.
This video is the very essence of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater and causing a panic.
Ummm... no. That involves making people believe there is an immediate physical threat. Their reaction to get out of the theater is a perfectly reasonable one, but they need to not panic and exit in an orderly way. The problem with the people attacking the embassies is that they did it at all, not that they didn't draw up into orderly ranks and carry out the assault with proper discipline.
How would this play in the media if some guy in Saudi Arabia trolled a bunch of bible thumpers or skinheads into something horrible?
Actually, I expect the media would be much more enthusiastic about criticizing the beliefs of those involved. But it's much less likely that there would be that reaction. Not impossible, just much less likely. Did Christians around the world burn down embassies in response to The DaVinci Code? I believe there was one significant act of violence (in France, not usually known for its "Bible thumpers") during the run of The Last Temptation of Christ -- after huge amounts of news coverage and advertising. I don't recall any "we have to censor this or the Christians will kill people!" hysteria. And that's as it should be.
Beyond the principle of freedom of speech in this specific instance, you're also overlooking the long-term incentive of what you espouse. If people can get things censored by resorting to violence, then the message you're sending is "if you want something censored, get violent." By giving in to one religious group's violent demands for censorship, you're telling every other religious group that if they remain well-behaved they can be mocked, but if they break out the torches they can shut up their critics.
Re:But just let .... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, I'm half joking here, and I'm half sarcastic. But let's face it: there's a blatant double standard going on here. On one hand, lives are being threatened and people have been killed, and this silly video causing this stays on... because it doesn't violate some copyright. On the other hand, a couple of fat cats from the MAFIAA lose a couple of dollars and Youtube jumps proactively to their rescue with massive take downs or country-wide censorships (think GEMA). It's as if peoples' lives, US Citizens' lives, are less important than the bottom line of the copyright holders. THIS is disgusting, IMHO. Just as disgusting as those Muslim riots. Both sides are deeply entrenched in their ideologies, and are totally lacking reason and responsibility.
Re:It's already out there... (Score:4, Insightful)
If they made the same sort of movie about Jesus, I probably wouldn't be able to stop laughing.
The Life Of Brian?
Re:Idiots like you are the problem ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Atheism in NOT a religion, there is no deity involved
A deity is not a requisite of religion. Faith in the unprovable is.
Atheists actually DO belong to a religion, a religion equal to any they abhor, for they too accept an article of faith which cannot be proven: that having not (yet?) found objective evidence for a thing means it categorically must not and cannot exist.
By that same criteria, if you lived in the 1500s then radio waves and X-rays "did not exist", since there did not yet exist the technology to detect, generate, or receive (in the case of radio) them.
At least agnostics are humble and logical enough to acknowledge that they don't know what they don't have a means to test or verify.
Strat
Re:Just let them kill each other, then we get peac (Score:5, Insightful)
We've "adapted" the religion to fit the times.
Oh, so that's why homosexuals can get married in any state in the US?
Or that abortion clinics are allowed to conduct their perfectly legal business without harassment.
Whilst religions have adapted in other western countries, the US is alone in it's Christian fundamentalism.