US Ordered To Hand Over Megaupload Documents 242
An anonymous reader writes "A judge in New Zealand has ordered the U.S. government to hand over evidence seized in the Megaupload raid so Kim Dotcom and his co-defendants can use it to prepare a defense for an extradition hearing. The judge wrote, 'Actions by and on behalf of the requesting State have deprived Mr. Dotcom and his associates of access to records and information. ... United States is attempting to utilize concepts from the civil copyright context as a basis for the application of criminal copyright liability [which] necessitates a consideration of principles such as the dual use of technology and what they be described as significant non-infringing uses.' Once the defense attorneys have gathered and presented their evidence, the judge must decide whether the U.S. can make a reasonable case against Dotcom."
Dear USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Insightful)
The cops work for the government, which is your elected representation. It is up to you to control them. I'm afraid you must take responsibility.
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Where do you live?
No matter what your answer is, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to lay the blame on you for not holding authorities accountable.
The only way to avoid this argument is for you to claim you agree with everything the authorities do. In that case, I'd realize the conversation is pointless.
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What is needed is for the people of New Zealand to grow some balls and elect a government that is going to stop kissing the ass of the United States on these kinds of issues.
Then again, the way the NZ people keep electing government after government that sucks up to the US government and to big US corporations, I wonder who is smarter over there, the people or the sheep...
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And ninety million possums, possums!
(That works best in a Dame Edna voice.)
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Please leave the rest of the world alone. Thankyou.
You're far too polite.
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Dear USA (Score:4, Funny)
Have you tried to use a puck mouse?
Someone HAD to be high for that one.
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Informative)
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And "gay" originally meant "happy and carefree". Language evolves.
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Manufacturing in the US is far from dead. [sj-r.com]
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Interesting)
The US produces very little? It's incredibly obvious to tell you're trolling with statements like that.
Actually from my point of view, I'd have to agree with the GP.
I can't think of a single item I own that was actually made in USA. I own plenty of stuff made by US companies, but as far as I'm aware not on US soil.
At one stage I thought my mountain bike was actually made in the US, but then I found a sticker that disproved that (can't remember where it said now)
A brief survey of most stuff I own indicates that most of it came from China, followed by Taiwan and various other Asian countries.
That's one of the big issues I see with the "first world". We don't actually make the stuff any more that got us to that position in the first place. How long before the rest of the world doesn't need us any more?
Re:Dear USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Thats interesting, considering the heritage of the works at the core of this case - or are we limiting the topic to physical goods only?
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Unfortunately the US rarely produces its own products these days, the most we can say that we do is that we engineer our own stuff and outsource the production and fabrication to another country China, Japan, S. Korea, Ect, Ect. Even then most of the products are re-engineered there to fit a certain type of production method or time table..
The ultra short version is we send shit overseas because its cheaper and ultimately more cost effective all while costing us here in the long run.
Re:Dear USA (Score:4, Insightful)
This argument pretty much disproves itself. Other countries need countries like the USA because of the point you are making. Manufacturing products for US companies is a big part of the economy in a lot of countries. As countries like China continue to develop their manufacturing industry they will continue to need Western countries to provide a market for their home grown products.
This is how the world economy works. Different countries economies are based on different things and they trade.
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Is there any intrinsic reason why the US and China economies couldn't switch places?
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Interesting)
The Chinese currency is currently, artificially, kept very low. It has been for a very long while. NPR Report from 2006 on Yaun manipulation [npr.org]
If the Yaun were more influenced by the market like the rest of the world, it would be balancing much quicker. The issue has very little to do with what US workers are willing to work for and more to do with what corporations are willing to pay. With the current unemployment rates in the US, you could stock a factory with minimum wage, skilled laborers, without an issue. But that still can't compete on a resource cost level with a stifled Yaun.
Even so, as skilled production work moves to China, wages continue to increase due to labor shortages. NY Times article on the wage and labor issue [nytimes.com]. It is starting to even out, and we'll likely see more jobs returning to US shores as an equilibrium as reached.
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Calm down, chief. Resource supply and demand is driving up wages in China, making America a viable alternative for cheap, skilled labor again. There's no wishing or waiting for a natural phenomenon implied there, simply an observed fact as it pertains to the current situation.
I'm not sure how you linked that statement to a support of trickle-down economics, the invisible hand, or some belief that the market is controlled by magic, as I implied nothing of the sort. I simply stated my opinion that skilled lab
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Because Americans wont work for chinese wages.
Yet. But they're working on it.
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Have you thought about the long term implications of the type of enormous trade deficit you have just described?
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The nasty part - your argument in response to the original comments about 'IP is important too' - somewhat miss the point.
At the moment - for example - Apple is making large amounts of money from stuff produced in China, and managing to extract large amounts of money from that value-chain, into 'US' hands.
However, unless you believe that customers simply will not ever buy products not designed in the USA - at some point Chinese owned companies in China, will start doing development competently enough, and t
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The US produces very little? It's incredibly obvious to tell you're trolling with statements like that.
Actually from my point of view, I'd have to agree with the GP.
I can't think of a single item I own that was actually made in USA. I own plenty of stuff made by US companies, but as far as I'm aware not on US soil.
At one stage I thought my mountain bike was actually made in the US, but then I found a sticker that disproved that (can't remember where it said now)
A brief survey of most stuff I own indicates that most of it came from China, followed by Taiwan and various other Asian countries.
That's one of the big issues I see with the "first world". We don't actually make the stuff any more that got us to that position in the first place. How long before the rest of the world doesn't need us any more?
Posts like this are one of the reasons I rarely visit slashdot anymore. The GP is a contentless one-liner marked +5 insightful. The parent says the USA doesn't make anything, when a quick wikipedia search reveals, "The United States is the world's largest manufacturer, with a 2009 industrial output of US$2.33 trillion. Its manufacturing output is greater than of Germany, France, India, and Brazil combined" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States
Then else where in the thread, we have crack
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*Sigh* I think this will be my last post on slashdot.
Ai, it seems AC has left the building.
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*Sigh* I think this will be my last post on slashdot.
Thanks for letting us know, I'm sure we would have been worried if you had just disappeared without warning.
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Interesting)
The US still exports gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, the majority from imported crude oil. We also export "computers and electronics", which the components are provided by overseas firms. For example, if Dell sells a metric fucktonne of computers from the US warehouses, it was an "export", even though it was assembled in a foreign country with foreign parts. Our other major exports are transportation equipment, chemicals, machinery, and agricultural products.
That ignores the real problem though. The components use to make most of those are manufactured out of country. The US has gone from being an industrial source, to being an industrial middle-man. So, you will find stickers indicating almost everything you buy was manufactured in foreign countries. Quite a bit of the food you eat was grown in foreign countries. The car you drive, or at least the components, came from foreign countries.
Being an industrial middle-man has benefits for the corporations based here, but for few others. They already know it's cheaper to manufacture overseas. They can have their call centers overseas. Since the US economy is down, they sell overseas. That leaves fewer and fewer jobs in the US, less consumer spending capability in the US, and is drawing us down into the collapse of the US economy.
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Who made your CPU chip? Many fabs including ones in the US make the chips, even if it is packaged elsewhere.
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I can't think of a single item I own that was actually made in USA. I own plenty of stuff made by US companies, but as far as I'm aware not on US soil.
Well, off the top of my head, here are things I own that were made in the USA:
Now, as for my clothes, books, computers, furniture -- the things I use in my day-to-day life (thank God I don't use a rifle in my daily life) -- those things were not made in the USA.
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Aren't alot of the chips in the computers we use fabbed in the USA, atleast? Big ticket items, for sure. How about cars? The united states manufactures crap tons of cars. Harley's are probably made in the USA, too. By necessity, you're house was made in the USA. All Boeing jets are made in the USA, but it's not practical to own them. While probably not 'manufactured' i'm willing to say that a good deal of the food you eat was probably processed in the USA just due to logistical reasons, and packaged here.
I'
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Fine then. We'll stop, and you can design everything yourself or let China "handle" that.
Re:Dear USA (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Trade_Balance_1980_2011.svg [wikipedia.org]
Re:Dear USA (Score:4, Informative)
"Statistically"?!?
USA was the world's largest manufacturer up to around 2009-2010, and has just been overtaken by China. Each of them produce around 20% of the total world's manufacturing output (40% combined).
How is 1/5th of the total manufacturing output "statistically very little"? Or are you just making up shit about something you have no clue about in the first place?
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Considering that the US's sovereign debt is already way higher than most of Europe's; the only way the US can help is by having the FED keeping up with the ECB in printing fresh new more and more worthless money (so the USD exchange rate to the EUR won't climb way too high). And this, the FED is doing on its o
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The theory the FED operates under is that they are actually hurting Europe doing that. They think it protects the US export market by keeping products affordable for Europeans. To some simplistic extent they are correct.
Don't be fooled into think they are doing you any favors though. Its not about defending American jobs, and they ignoring the consequence to the average Joe with a passbook savings account. This is really about protecting the equity, derivative, and insurances bets made by them member ba
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When the Dollar is weak I buy more stuff from China. Most of the Chinese merchants seem to deal in USD so their products get cheaper for me.
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Well of course. Pretty much all Chinese foreign trade is settled in USD. It is the most used currency for settling trade to begin with: lots of international trade is settled in USD. EUR is a distant second. Lots of trade with Europe is also settled in USD.
Add to that the fact that the yuan is not freely convertible (this means you as US importer can not get the yuan to pay for your imports - you can only exchange 30,000 yuan, about 4,700 USD, a day without special permission), and that by using USD it's ge
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I'm pretty sure half of Europe didn't want to you stop being isolationist the first time. And your intervention in WW1 probably caused WW2, so you shouldn't feel to proud about having to come back to fix the mess you helped create.
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Europeans: Stop making reflexive anti-American statements at every opportunity. Thank you.
Last time I looked Australia and New Zealand were not part of Europe.
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Maybe he was just making a general request.
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And the Commonwealth has slightly more money down the back of the sofa that Europe at the moment.
No its still smaller. Without India it would be a lot smaller
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In the Geographical sense Oz and NZ are as far away from Europe as you can get (NZ is exactly opposite Spain in fact) but in terms of Intelectual Property they are included in Europe (for example DVD region codes)
Re:Dear USA (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry, the DVD region code for NZ is 4. The UK and Europe is 2 (see wikipedia [wikipedia.org] ). Fortunately enforcing the suppliers use of region locking on DVD players was ruled a breach of our competition legislation (which explicitly makes parallel importing legal) and our copyright act explicitly excludes region locking as a proctection measure See here [legislation.govt.nz] So almost all DVD players are sold unlocked.
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Because the whole world is either European or American. Funny considering the subject deals with New Zealand.
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Dear USA (Score:4, Informative)
Careful....
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/05/29/2353223/twitter-bomb-joke-case-rolls-back-into-uk-courts [slashdot.org]
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I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia,
I'd be interested to know what the Scandinavians think about this!
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I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia
You have seen the Swedish women's beach volleyball team, right?
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Interesting)
Carefull, looking at them in the wrong way can land you sexual harassment charges in Sweden ...
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I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia
You have seen the Swedish women's beach volleyball team, right?
Beach volley is ruined by know if it is athletic bodies of women you like to see - the standard outfit is no longer tight tops and bikini bottoms but loose shirts and men's shorts. Yes, there actually was a rule which mandated the women to wear tight clothes in beach volley, but it is now dissolved. So no eye candy there, just pure sports - I will leave the speculation to others if this is a good thing or not....
Re:Dear USA (Score:5, Interesting)
More seriously, the SNP did hold up the "arc of prosperity" of the Republic of Ireland, Iceland and Norway as the shining examples of how small Atlantic nations could be amazingly prosperous and how much better it would be if Scotland was independent and part of that...
Fast forward a couple of years and Ireland is tanked by being one of the loser economies in the Euro (a currency which basically only works for Germany and while the French might think it works for them too, I think they have a surprise brewing) and Iceland banks got shredded by their exposure to toxic assets forcing the whole nation to the brink.
Which basically just leaves Norway doing well out of the original "arc of prosperity". So the current SNP line is "things would be better if we were like Norway".
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Ireland is still a hell of a lot better off than they were before they joined the EU. Back then they really were the poor man of Europe. In fact they are almost certainly doing better now than they would have been if they had not joined the Euro as well, since every time there has been a global/continental downturn in the past each country has abused its own currency to the detriment of others and made the situation far worse for everyone. That's what most people seem to miss - if the Euro wasn't there the
docs need to prove conspiracy.. (Score:5, Interesting)
docs need to prove conspiracy for extradition.
however, the defense would like it's hand on the evidence so they can show the police fucked up(afaik the computers are supposed to have security cam footage from the raid).
this is also a test if the fbi/etc can even hand over the evidence(I suppose they should have also had something prior to the bust to prove the conspiracy)...
Re:docs need to prove conspiracy.. (Score:5, Informative)
INAL but from what I've been reading it's more complex then that, the conspiracy/ racketeering and money laundering charges only stick if they can show criminal copyright infringement. Problem is copyright infringement is civil issue in NZ AND they need to show probable success of conviction for crimes with at least a 5 year jail term in NZ before extradition can even go ahead.
Conspiracy to commit a crime carries a maximum penalty of 5 years so qualifies, but they need to show both likely hood of conspiracy and the original crime.
A laymans example would be: I think you and your friend conspired to cheat on a test. I may have emails showing you conspired but I can't just have you extradited by showing conspiracy, I have to convince a judge that cheating on a test is a criminal offence first. A much taller order.
Also remember that the judge has already stated his displeasure with the failure to follow due process in the initial arrest and has required the crown to guarantee to cover costs and lost income if kim dotcom is not found guilty.
-Kactus
Re:docs need to prove conspiracy.. (Score:5)
Wait, NOW!?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
The NZ authorities didn't have this information before? They've destroyed a company, cost the 'innocent until proven guilty' person great harm, and NZ hasn't even seen the evidence yet to allow the raid? Good grief.
Re:Wait, NOW!?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
They aren't saying they haven't seen enough evidence to say Dotcom is guilty of a crime, they are saying that he has a right to defend himself against extradition and that defense needs to be able to review evidence for and against that charge.
Having said that, I think NZ sleep walked into a political quagmire which they would be very happy to get out of with the least amount of embarrassment. It would be very useful for them to find a reason not to extradite Dotcom because then they could say they followed the International Treaties with the US that they had to but their own courts also protected someone from illegal extradition.
Re:Wait, NOW!?!? (Score:5, Interesting)
They aren't saying they haven't seen enough evidence to say Dotcom is guilty of a crime, they are saying that he has a right to defend himself against extradition and that defense needs to be able to review evidence for and against that charge.
Various news outlets in NZ tried to talk to just about everyone (PM, Crown, etc) and find out whether FBI presented evidence (and what evidence was that) before raid was ordered, who exactly authorized the raid, negotiated with FBI, etc.
Everyone refused to talk to media about these issue. As if they're not public servants paid by taxpayers' money, but working in a private company and can decline to comment.
In short - noone (except police, I guess) knows what evidence NZ police has seen before the raid. They might have not seen any evidence, for all we know.
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Wouldn't be the first time if the US lied in order to get the international community to support them.
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Nonsense. There is plenty of evidence...in the sense that there was plenty of evidence of WMDs in Iraq before the US invaded. It's just...slightly manufactured.
Re:Wait, NOW!?!? (Score:5, Funny)
The NZ authorities didn't have this information before? They've destroyed a company, cost the 'innocent until proven guilty' person great harm, and NZ hasn't even seen the evidence yet to allow the raid? Good grief.
See, you weren't there for "the call".
US DoJ: OK, this Dotcom guy has to be raided.
NZ official: But you haven't even presented us any evidence against him whatsoever!
US DoJ: Speaking of evidence, did you know that US SIGINT is the best on the planet? Did you know we have recordings/copies of all the emails, phone calls, and other electronic data, including photos and videos, sent and received by all the top NZ politicians and government officials? In fact I remember seeing something with your name on it concerning a string of calls to a "transvestite escort service", I think it was?
NZ official: What time do you want us to hit the bastard?
Strat
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Re:Wait, NOW!?!? (Score:5, Interesting)
well, if you count going purely on fbi agents word then they didn't act with zero evidence. if they had gone with something more substantial the raid wouldn't have needed to be in such a hurry and could have gone through the proper procedure - but as it is the warrant could probably have been fought against legally - had they been given the chance.
obviously the nz authorities assumed that fbi wouldn't be bullshitting so badly but they were, full knowing that the actual suspected crime wasn't enough for extradition even.
and the fbi agents thought they could get kim to settle "for less jailtime" regardless of the actual crime since that's the standard in usa - and now they're in trouble because they would need to come up with some real evidence to show that it's actually a criminal case that should be tried in usa.
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I highly doubt NZ acted with 0 evidence
You're obviously not familiar with the NZ Police.
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Give the guy a break. After all those parliamentary sessions sitting across the house from Geogina Beyer [wikipedia.org], a man does get a little curious.
Re:Wait, NOW!?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
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apparently nz authorities didn't get to see any evidence before the raid either and fucked up handing over the warrant to megaupload too so they(mu) could have asked for it. it seems from the reports that usa authorities before the raid made up kim look like a financial conspirator, something much severe in legal terms than copyright infringement. the nz authorities went with just fbi agents word on the case and are now starting to hopefully pay the price(and so fbi/nz relations too).
(too bad usa is wasting
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By all accounts Kim seems to be something of a scumbag
But far less so than those scumbags involved in his arrest.
Victory for this battle is to MPAA (Score:5, Insightful)
Regardless if the US produce evidence or not. The Megaupload saga can be considered a success by the US authorities, MPAA, etc. Because they have destroyed Megaupload and all alternate providers like Megaupload are shaking in their pants. They have one this battle. But the war rages.
Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually - as this thing is going it is more than likely that the US will loose and fail to get any extradition or other conviction.
Remember, everything hinges on thumped-up charge of conspiracy to commit copyright infringement which is ludicrous because MegaUpload did not sell access to the illegal stuff, nor did they ask or otherwise entice the pirates to use their services. They were just one of many cloud storage and sharing service providers that both pirates and everybody else used. You paid for longer storage time, more storage space and more bandwidth to access/download. Access was free otherwise, which means that downloaders didn't pay for access but paid for ease of access.
Oh, and when the US loses this case, I can't wait for the counter-suit for damages. I would laugh my pants off when the US government is ordered to cover the damages incurred during this farce of a trial. I hope Kim Dotcom takes them to the cleaners and take everything to the max. Get them to pay so obscene amounts that heads will have to roll and the collaboration with the copyright MAFIAA is dropped like a hot potato.
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No payment would ever be made if that were ever to happen.
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alternate providers ... are shaking in their pants
I think that proves that enough porn has already been downloaded for their further services to be unnecessary.
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If Megaupload wins and starts again, US will have the problem of having to accuse somebody of the same crime twice.
Megaupload has seen their opponents hand, and knows how to play their cards the second time round.
The US government will have to find new (and increasingly far fetched) legal strategies.
I observed an unusual tone in the statement... (Score:5, Interesting)
Usually, it is the US that orders other jurisdictions to hand over stuff...not the other way round! This leads me to one conclusion:
It will not work! This request is DoA! Moot...name it!
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
America, fuck yeah (Score:4, Funny)
Actually I would like to correct that: America, fuck you.
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theres nothing wrong with the parts of america that aren't the US
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Yes, "fuck you" could only ever be directed at one specific part of the American continent.
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you should try to look up the word "context" in a dictionary.
Missing the point (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe the most significant quote from the statement is this:
"United States is attempting to utilize concepts from the civil copyright context as a basis for the application of criminal copyright liability [which] necessitates a consideration of principles such as the dual use of technology and what they be described as significant non-infringing uses."
In other words, the NZ government realizes this is a misuse of the justice system to allow the US government to prosecute a civil case as a criminal one without giving the defendant access to evidence. The significant problem here is that the rights of the right-holder is being held to a higher standard than the rights of the defendant in this case.
I'm not attempting to say Mr. Dotcom is completely innocent in this case, but the US legal system has destroyed his business, confiscated his assets and likely taken away his future without due process and without a conviction of any crime at this point. Innocent until proven guilty, anyone?
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Why aren't you? Isn't he innocent until proven guilty? Right now, he's 100% innocent.
Re:Missing the point (Score:5, Informative)
Why aren't you? Isn't he innocent until proven guilty? Right now, he's 100% innocent.
Innocent until proven guilty is correctly used with the verb "presumed", not "is". Whether he is innocent or guilty will not change in the coming months - either a crime has already been committed or it hasn't. However, he is presumed innocent until proven otherwise.
They Forgot (Score:2, Insightful)
This was just an oversight, the US has forgotten that you are supposed to have evidence for criminal trials. With the Bush and Obama doctrines, NSLs, GItmo, and the national security exception this idea of evidence is a rather quaint and archaic notion. I'm sure they are sending the evidence now to their less enlightened allies.
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Unfortunately they probably haven't. Megaupload appears to have been operating within the law. I suspect a fairly substantial chunk of what's stored there is legitimate, or at least not provably copyright inf
Agents of the MAFIAA plunderbund (Score:2)
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But does it have to be in behalf of Kimmy? Of all the poor bastards that got into the crosshairs of the US copyright mafia? I really start to wonder if that guy just has too much luck or whether something else is going on.
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Only if he wins. All of his money was seized by the New Zealand, Dutch, British, Hong Kong, and American governments. He's actually poor.
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Last thing I heard is that part of his money was returned to him.
Besides, I somehow doubt that all of his money has been seized. Every halfway decent crook can squirrel some money away from the feds, I highly doubt that of all the crooks he couldn't.
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How much would you wager that the US will tell him that they will return the funds, but he needs to fly to the US to pick them up in person? ;-)
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His assets are frozen, not seized. It's still his, but he can't touch it.
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Wellfare: "Can you proof you're actually without a job? Otherwise I can't give you any wellfare".
Bum: "Go ahead, punk, make my day."
Re:Take note (Score:5, Funny)
If this happened in Australia Kim would altready be in US custardy.
NZ purposly made legal mistakes and are now intentionally hindering the US!
It is distinctly possible that the USA would jail Kim for as long as they could, but it is highly unlikely they would ever attempt to turn him into a creme brulee.
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It's quite arrogant to think that following local laws is somehow the same as "intentionally hindering".
US laws stop at the US border.
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As I understand it, the US basically has two options.
1. Hand over the evidence and possibly getting him extradited.
2. Not hand over the evidence and not getting him extradited.
So if they want to continue, they only have one option left.
Re:Kimble - the douchebag's douchebag. (Score:4, Insightful)
I remember him from the quake days too and remember him as being an asshat as well, but to be honest? I couldn't care. You know why? Because the case in itself is a giant miscarriage of justice, and if you can't see that though over 10 years of self-inflicted hate, you've got a deeper psychological problem.