New Hampshire Passes 'Open Source Bill' 260
Plugh writes "In a victory for transparency and openness in government, and saving tax dollars, New Hampshire has passed HB418. State agencies are now required by law to consider open source software when acquiring software, and to promote the use of open data formats."
To what degree? (Score:2, Insightful)
And just how much consideration is required? "Yeah, we looked at it but didn't trust it, so it was immediately discarded" is technically a consideration.
Re:To what degree? (Score:5, Informative)
I. For all software acquisitions, each state agency, in consultation with the department of information technology, shall:
(a) Consider whether proprietary or open source software offers the most cost effective software solution for the agency, based on consideration of all associated acquisition, support, maintenance, and training costs;
(b) Except as provided in subparagraphs (d) and (e), acquire software products primarily on a value-for-money basis, based on consideration of the cost factors as described in subparagraph (a);
(c) Provide a brief analysis of the purchase decision, including consideration of the cost factors in subparagraph (a), to the chief information officer;
(d) Avoid the acquisition of products that do not comply with open standards for interoperability or data storage; and
(e) Avoid the acquisition of products that are known to make unauthorized transfers of information to, or permit unauthorized control of or modification of a state agency’s computer.
II. All state procurement documents related to software acquisitions shall include language that requires adherence to this section.
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Those last two are a doozy if followed. Especially if you make a strict interpretation of what is unauthorized.
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Those last two are a doozy if followed.
WGA is banned too. I wonder what Microsoft will make of that...
(g) It is not in the public interest and it is a violation of the fundamental right to privacy for the state to use software that, in addition to its stated function, also transmits data to, or allows control and modification of its systems by, parties outside of the state’s control.
Re:To what degree? (Score:5, Informative)
Try holding Microsoft's feet to the fire with that one please... they have an "open specification" but they don't follow it...
the above quote is from wikipedia
Plus it's got patents involved with it that aren't compatible with GPL
Re:To what degree? (Score:5, Informative)
I know this is Slashdot and people will rush to post moronic questions just to get first post that would be easily answered if they would bother to read the links, and that will get modded up instantly by other morons . . . but the text of HB418 is actually quite specific. For example:
I. For all software acquisitions, each state agency, in consultation with the department of information technology, shall:
...
(d) Avoid the acquisition of products that do not comply with open standards for interoperability or data storage; and
(e) Avoid the acquisition of products that are known to make unauthorized transfers of information to, or permit unauthorized control of or modification of a state agency’s computer.
There's a lot of other stuff too, including stuff about open data formats.
Re:To what degree? (Score:5, Informative)
Bingo. And the Open Data stuff uses the suggested principles formulated by the Open Government Data group including Prof. Larry Lessig.
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Hard as I have tried, I just can't come up with a snarky comment about why this law is a bad idea. I'm sure there will be efforts made to do so below. However, the rest of us might take this opportunity to identify the trolls and shills by the quality, or lack, of their efforts.
I'll tell you one thing, there are some state legislators in New Hampshire who won't be finding fat checks from industry lobbyists in their xmas stockings this year. (Or maybe they w
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They made no effort to send me a fat check before or since.
Nor did they influence the Senators enough to kill it there. So perhaps they realize that Open Source has won.
Re:To what degree? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that open source won long ago. The primary driving force behind closed source is Microsoft. And, Microsoft no longer has the world's population trying to force feed cash to Microsoft. Things are changing, Microsoft has less money to spend on bribes, and those stocking stuffers are more targeted now.
Eventually, the world will realize that it makes no sense to pay licensing fees for something that has a free equivalent.
The biggest obstacle to adoption of open source now, are all those kids of the '90's and '00's who grew up using Microsoft, believing that manipulating Microsoft's GUI made them "computer scientists". It's a slow process, but stupidity and ignorance can be healed.
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ALEC is a clearing house of ideas... it's an repository for legislation they think is good. I'm proud that they have embraced legislation _I_ submitted here in (with the help of folks from Institute of Justice, the Kelo case folks) regarding asset forfeiture laws. NH's drafted law was a better model than previous drafts, so it was passed around, and now ALEC has adopted it... meaning that it will end up submitted in other states. That's not a bad thing.
As for the legislation you dislike, let's look at th
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I'd think that the goal behind this move would have been to avoid being too dependent on any single company for solutions, given that if that company folds, they'd have to re-invest in another solution again. Think of companies who were using VMS at one time, and had to leave once DEC and Alpha went away. I'm sure that at that time, the idea of DEC not existing would have been far fetched, just like the idea of Microsoft or Quicken not existing is inconceivable to people today.
I agree that it's a good t
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There are other Chromium browsers (Score:3)
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The state could always recompile Chrome/Chromium to fit their own needs. No need to rely on any company, is there?
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You took it from my mouth! Good question, but I'm also skeptical about the effectiveness of the provision below:
(b) Use open standards unless specific project requirements preclude use of an open data format.
Here's how closed format shills will dissuade this state from helping open source software gain any meaningful foothold.
They will tout the need to inter-operate with other 'established' closed formats (which 90% of the world uses by the way), and they will have a point.
As an example, when it comes to LibreOffice's ability to read and write Microsoft Office formats with high fidelity, this open sou
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Open any Office 2007/2010 document in LibreOffice?
We run a mixed shop with some employees using OO/LO and others using actual Office. The docs prepared in Office get suitably and consistently mangled in OO; to the point of unusability (e.g. bulleted lists dissapearing, tables vanishing, etc.).
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I had to update my resume (word 97/2003 format or whatever the "standard" is).
The weird thing is OpenOffice opened "more correctly" than Libre did. While the font was off, the breaks between pages were all correct along with the rest of the formatting. Libre had it all messed up.
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The same thing happens the other way. I use LO at home and MSO at school.
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Wan to to see probems with LibreOffice's MS Office conversions? Head here [libreoffice.org] for a more recent 'complaint' by one user.
Want to see to what extent close source shills will work to defeat open source implementations?
I have an example [boston.com] from more than half a decade ago; still relevant today as those folks are still living with the repercussions of that decision.
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Actually, I was concerned about that incident greatly, which is why this attempts a different sort of approach... The Open Government Data principles don't attempt to enforce A standard, just standards that fit the principles. You can be closed source and meet the principles.... it's just much harder to do so, as open source tends to work toward those same princples, and closed source doesn't always.
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I hope you aren't blaming OpenOffice or LibreOffice folks for this deficiency. MS Office is closed, so any attempt to decode its formats can only go so far.
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Blame is irrelevant, parent has a point: that LibreOffice's inability to open MS formats with high fidelity is an actual real world issue that factors into decisions about what software to use.
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Actually, I find it much more common to have problems because of the (windows only) text font than the formatting itself.
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But enough of that - I will offer you the real-world challenge: Write your resume' with Office
I write my résumé in LaTeX you insensitive clod!
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LaTeX resumes are for people who graduated from MIT/Caltech or are otherwise celebrities in their fields and can coast by name alone.
Not knockin' LaTeX, just that resumes are not an ideal application of LaTeX.
Here I must respectfully disagree. LaTeX is ideal for a résumé. My own résumé is written in LaTeX and the layout is elegant and highly professional-looking. I output it to a pdf and send that when I'm able.
The thing that pisses me off is companies which require that I send a .doc or .docx formatted résumé. Where able, I politely request to send my résumé in pdf format, but it's not always an option. So therefore, I
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Re:To what degree? (Score:4, Informative)
Your document is a good example of the problems proprietary formats can cause.
The reason your document's form fields do not work in Word is not because of issues with LibreOffice, it's a compatibility issue between Word's binary format (W95-2000 .doc) and the newer .docx format. You would have the same problem using different versions of Word.
The check boxes used in your form have been deprecated in Word 2007's .docx, and are only accessible under the Developer tab of the Ribbon interface. To get it to work the way you expect, you'll need to save it as a .doc from LibreOffice, which will force Office 2007 to switch to the legacy mode.
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To be fair, do the same thing in Office on OSX and open it in Office on Windows. Or use fonts on your computer without extensive font embedding licensing knowledge. Or between versions of Office.
There is a degree of expected compatibility under Office which doesn't seem to hold up under the real world.
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There have been plenty of posts pointing to Microsoft Office' inability to open, or to save, older Microsoft Office documents. I don't even use Microsoft Office, so I've just read those posts for amusement.
Try running this search on Google: "Microsoft office can't read". Office can't do this, office can't do that, office won't read Microsoft's own proprietary formats without some addon kludge.
Personally, I'd rather have problems with Open/Libre Office than to pay a hundred dollars for a "polished" produc
Re:To what degree? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, which is why the Open Data part of this bill is even more exciting than the Open Source part of it.
I. The commissioner shall develop a statewide information policy based on the following principles of open government data. According to these principles, open data is data that is:
(a) Complete. All public data is made available, unless subject to valid privacy, security, or privilege limitations.
(b) Primary. Data is collected at the source, with the highest possible level of granularity, rather than in aggregate or modified forms.
(c) Timely. Data is made available as quickly as necessary to preserve the value of the data.
(d) Accessible. Data is available to the widest range of users for the widest range of purposes.
(e) Machine processable. Data is reasonably structured to allow automated processing.
(f) Nondiscriminatory. Data is available to anyone, with no requirement of registration.
(g) Nonproprietary. Data is available in a format over which no entity has exclusive control, with the exception of national or international published standards.
(h) License-free. Data is not subject to any copyright, patent, trademark, or trade secret regulation. Reasonable privacy, security, and privilege restrictions may be allowed.
Compare that to http://www.opengovdata.org/home/8principles [opengovdata.org]
almost RMS-approved (Score:2)
Meaningless (Score:3, Insightful)
"Didn't meet our requirements."
With that statement, any choice can be made. It is impossible to legislate what people "should" do, particularly when dealing with large bureaucracies.
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I used this exact line MANY times in explaining to people why we needed to pass this bill.
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Maybe, with legislation like this, it will become "nobody ever got fired for choosing open source".
Re:Meaningless (Score:5, Insightful)
"Didn't meet our requirements."
With that statement, any choice can be made. It is impossible to legislate what people "should" do, particularly when dealing with large bureaucracies.
While true, this requires the minions to say so in writing, with their names attached. Which provides the demi-minions above them with grounds for low performance ratings, and so on up to the top of the heap. Where a challenger for some elected position could accuse the incumbent of failing to control costs, etc, using all these brief reports as concrete ammunition.
I have been employed by an agency of the Federal government, never for any State governments, but I believe when it comes to the hired staff they all work the same way. If you make the civil servants have to state their reasons for decisions in any kind of written report, suddenly those decisions become a lot more rational. They don't know who their boss will be after the next election, and if they want to advance, they've got to be good at covering their asses.
Looks to me like NH has found a way to make the CYA attitudes of its Sybil serpents work for the benefit of the populace. Way to go, Granite State!
Re:Meaningless (Score:5, Informative)
Thanks, as author of the bill, that was indeed PART of the intent of this...
Their definition of "open source" (Score:5, Insightful)
It's interesting to see how a government defines what "open source" means. Some of the wording might actually restrict certain packages, for example:
As a professional open source developer myself, I have to admit that documentation isn't often a strong point of open source, and internal file formats are no exception.
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The source itself is the documentation. It may not be as clear as purpose written documentation in some cases, but it is necessarily 100% accurate and can often be linked into other software for instant compatibility.
On the other side, some purpose written documentation manages to be so unenlightening and impenetrable that reverse engineering proves to be less effort.
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In an ideal world there's no difference between what a software does and what it's supposed to do. But in the real world any non-trivial software will be imperfect.
Developers shouldn't be in a situation where they rely on unintended quirks in external code or file formats. You don't want someone else's bugfix to become your bug; that's why "real" documentation is so important. Looking at the code doesn't cut it.
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On the other hand, if you implement to the documentation, you will fail to inter-operate with the actual software. It won't matter that you're technically correct, it will be considered your failure and your software will be useless.
If you implement to the actual software, you may get bitten in the ass later, but it'll be fixable by looking at the diff and for the most part you'll be inter-operable.
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The source can be read and by reading it, you may know what the program does. Unlike the source, you can never be certain that you have seen every behavior that the program might have. The source is *intended* to be instructive. While it's target audience is a compiler, that in itself puts it above observation of behavior.
By no means is the source the best possible documentation (though it will always make a fine adjunct to any documentation) but it also isn't the worst.
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As long as that documentation is well written, yes. Documentation comes in a broad continuum of accuracy and readability. The source will not be the BEST documentation that has ever been written, but it won't be the WORST either. It will certainly be better than nothing. Some purpose written documentation is actually worse than nothing.
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Actually that is part of the definition for "Open standards". So it's referring not to internal storage, but to "encoding and transfer of computer data". I think it's pretty reasonable to require that a standard be documented.
"consideration" (Score:2, Insightful)
ctrl-c, ctrl-v
ctrl-c, ctrl-v
ctrl-c, ctrl-v ...
I'm the legislator and prime sponsor, and author.. (Score:5, Informative)
I'll answer any questions people have about the bill... post comments below.
This will be the FIRST Open Source and Open Data bill in any of the 50 states.
I'm very happy... And yes, I'm a geek. I've got a slashdot UID of 5 digits, have contributed to the Linux kernel and other project, tech edited a book on Drupal, and been doing techy things for over 25 years now...
Re:I'm the legislator and prime sponsor, and autho (Score:4, Interesting)
I've got a slashdot UID of 5 digits, have contributed to the Linux kernel and other project, tech edited a book on Drupal, and been doing techy things for over 25 years now...
But have you ever (and I'm quite serious about this) worked on a government project where acquisitions are made, to understand the kind of "We'll get what we want, it's just a matter of the right amount of paperwork" shenanigans that go on? And as such, do you honestly think the CIO of any agency will actually care?
I'm also curious -- the legislation that others quoted doesn't make any mention of the size of the acquisition. Does this mean that every credit card purchase of software will require such justification to be sent to the CIO? And if so, do you honestly expect anything other than copy and paste boilerplate explanations that will be so numerous and repetitive as to be essentially meaningless?
Perhaps those issues are addressed, but to be honest, it seems like one of those "sounds like a great idea" measures that will increase the amount of paperwork that people have to get their jobs done, and at best will only provide some technical person a little bit of fodder to demonstrate to management that his suggestion to use some sort of free software to accomplish the task isn't completely off the mark.
Re:I'm the legislator and prime sponsor, and autho (Score:4, Insightful)
The CIO of NH (ie the Commission of NH DOIT) supported this legislation, because it will enable them to track and review purchases for EXACTLY that sort of reason. And in State Government, nothing is ever 'credit card purchase' of software, or shouldn't be.
So I'll reverse the question to you: Have you ever worked at State Government?
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So I'll reverse the question to you: Have you ever worked at State Government?
No, I have existed solely at the Federal level, although from what I can gather by friends who have and do work in state government, it's not all that different, at least in my state (MD).
I'm surprised that there aren't any provisions for small-value credit card purchases that can be approved at a lower level. *shrug*
I really do hope it works out well, in all sincerity. I have my doubts, but like R2D2, I have been known to make mistakes... from time to time...
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No, but I've worked at a variety of companies with IT depts, and both created RFPs and proposals in response as a vendor.
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He claims to be a member of the NH congress. That's not the same view of government a middle level government employee would have, but it is part of the government, yes.
There is a Seth Cohn listed on the Wikipedia page [wikipedia.org] for the New Hampshire House of Representatives. I'm assuming this is the same guy (otherwise it'd be pretty bizarre). In another post he said he was Libertarian, although Wikipedia lists him as a Republican.
He doesn't have his own Wikipedia page, but you can google for him as easy as I can
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I'm a former Libertarian, and remain a libertarian (small l), and yes, I'm an elected Republican.
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Perhaps those issues are addressed, but to be honest, it seems like one of those "sounds like a great idea" measures that will increase the amount of paperwork that people have to get their jobs done,
There does seem to be one potential advantage. If they go with open source, they don't have to fill out the paperwork, right? Seems like they shouldn't have to, anyway, since there's no point. If that's the case, call it a benefit that plays the lazy nature of your usual bureaucrat against themselves. You
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I'm the legislator and prime sponsor, and autho (Score:4, Funny)
Can you move to Wisconsin and run for governor?
Re:I'm the legislator and prime sponsor... (Score:4, Funny)
No, NH is much nicer. Come visit us!
I was in Wisconsin last year, for a 10th anniversary party celebrating Neil Gaiman's American Gods novel, at House on the Rock. Neil was dressed as Doctor Who (4th Doctor), I was dressed as a Neil Gaiman audio book. Fun times were had by all.
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Do you have a twin brother we can steal for Canuckland?
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Reading quickly through the bill, seems pretty good; hope it works out. If nothing else I think it's a good start. I particularly liked the open data stuff; anyone who's had to deal with files through different versions of various word-manglers and such, or changing storage media, should appreciate it.
One thing that stood out, though: Why is the judiciary exempted?
Re:I'm the legislator and prime sponsor, and autho (Score:4, Insightful)
Good eye.
In order to get the bill passed.
They are in the midst of rolling out an E-Court system, and they felt this would get in the way... and besides which it was a turf war (Legislative versus Judicial)
I wanted the bill to pass, so I said 'Ok, you guys are exempt'. Such is politics.
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In the bill it provides a cost estimate. With a net positive effect, including this line, "The Department also estimates, based on a review of the FY 2012 and FY 2013 budget, state expenditures could decrease by approximately $300,000 in FY 2012 and each fiscal year thereafter through the implementation of open source software. "
There is a breakdown of the estimate for the cost part, broken down into possible new employees/time. Is there any breakdown of the estimated $300,000 in savings?
Awesome bill. How
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That net positive was the result of political work. This was originally 2 bills, one Open Source, one Open Data... Both bills had high price tags on them, and it was clear both were fairly bogus numbers (IMHO).
I removed language that caused some of the estimates, and got them to agree that the positions needed for one could be met by the 3 positions in the other bill, and that cost savings of $300k were a bare minimum. (Originally, due to 'Consider', not a requirement, the cost saving was $0, plus 10 peop
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So really, I've spent about 7 years or so learning how to get stuff like this done.
Pay attention to Seth here, folks. I was with him at the State House in 2006 when we tried and failed, and I testified for his bill as an open source entrepreneur this time around when we won.
Others have tried and failed to get something like this through. At least in the US, this is a prime and major success. You guys should be taking notes and seeking to replicate his success in your local jurisdictions.
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1) Yes, appointed, by the Governor, and approved by the NH Executive Council (essentially 5 lieutenant governors - unique system we have to check and balance the Governor).
2) total NH budget for 2012: $5,244,850,965 ($5.24 billion)
IT share of that: $67.5 million (roughly)
http://www.nh.gov/transparentnh/where-the-money-goes/index.htm [nh.gov]
http://www.nh.gov/doit/internet/ [nh.gov]
3) Yes, and they don't have to submit open source as a solution, for example, but the requirements of open data still apply, for one thing, and fo
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Actually, most lobbyists remain in the shadows. But you can smell them. NH has them, but it's far cleaner than most places. Lots of Reps (400), and we only pay $100 a year for Reps and Senators (24 of them), and we elect everyone every 2 years.
The best line of the entire fight was the one lobbyist in a subcommittee meeting who said "I think we can replace the entire bill with one line" as a way to try and kill the bill.
Enforcing the Law (or Policy) (Score:5, Interesting)
About 8 years ago, my employer adopted a policy which favored open standards and open source software. Today the site license for Microsoft products like Office and Exchange continues to rule as one administrator's secretary adopts a new version of Office and proceeds to distribute data in the new default format which is incompatible with previous versions so everyone upgrades because its easier than learning that Open/Libre Office can handle .docx and .xlsx files or using a Save As to ensure backward compatibility. Acess remains a problem as the stand-alone "database" file continues as the default.
The increasing number of Mac and *nix users learn to deal with the new file format but the new version virus always spreads because no one will enforce the policy and damn few people understand that there are alternatives.
Re:Ugh. PC Comes to the PC (Score:5, Informative)
Considering that I'm a libertarian (and member of the Free State Project, so not just a iffy libertarian, but one who packed up and moved his life to New Hampshire, and eventually ran for office, won, and got this legislation passed...), this is FAR from Nanny-State.
Government needs to be accountable on how taxpayer money is spent. Individuals can buy whatever they like, but I want the system to buy only the best choice for the least money, and if open source is considered, it'll often win. Not always, but more than it does now. (NH does use some open source now... FYI, including Apache webservers, for example, for some things)
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I've been (currently 'iffy', passively-)interested in the free state project, and NH in particular. So if I'm reading what you said properly, that you're one of the officials who voted for this legislation, maybe you can tell me:
Are we talking empty-headed randroid anarco-capitialist type "libertarians," or the sane "don't mess with people who aren't messing with you" brand?
Re:Ugh. PC Comes to the PC (Score:4, Informative)
Some of both... and every shade between, and some new flavors you have heard of... like female libertarians... yes, they exist, really.
Come visit NH, meet all kinds of folks, and see for yourself.
Feb 23-26th: http://freestateproject.org/libertyforum [freestateproject.org]
In June: http://freestateproject.org/content/porcfest [freestateproject.org]
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Some of both... and every shade between
That's a little worrisome, I have to admit, depending on the distribution. :) I'm not sure a Meet-n-greet will answer most of the questions, like the FSP web site, it seems mostly to read like a travel brochure with a lot of "liberty" talk sprinkled liberally (No pun intended) throughout the text. No offense to them, but after the past 16 years, you'll have to pardon my wariness. Still, I suppose a bit of poking around isn't out of the question. And, I will admit, an elected official with a 5-digit slashdot
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Well, I helped build the current (and previous) version of the FSP website (It's running Drupal), and it's Meant to read like a travel brochure: come visit!
The 2 events are merely good times to meet lots of folks, here and from elsewhere, listen to speakers, hang out, and just see what happens.
But really visiting most anytime, you'll be able to meet lots of people. Coordinate a visit using the Facebook group or website forum (both is good, and often other related sites will help too), and pretty much any t
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And I'm NOT the only elected official with geek-cred. There are a small group of us. NH has 400 State Reps... so the geek crowd isn't just one or two...
One Rep has authored a number of Windows certification training books you might have on your shelf, for example.
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One Rep has authored a number of Windows certification training books you might have on your shelf, for example.
No need to be insulting about it! (Just kidding.)
I'm poking around the FSP forums now to see if it looks reasonable to go through the trouble of the trip at all. You've certainly got some colorful types on there. :)
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Don't let the forums scare you aware... all of the real people tend to be too busy to spend much time on the forums.
Facebook is slightly better (search for Free State Project group and page)
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I'll do that. And thanks for the reassurance. ;)
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Mr. Cohn, a question for you sir.
I know New Hampshire takes the whole "Live Free or Die" motto very seriously and I think that's awesome. I have three questions for you, little nagging things that are sort of holding me back on advising friends who are considering leaving New Jersey (the polar opposite of NH) for anywhere else to go to NH.
1) What's your Internet infrastructure like down there? Any plans to get a municipal system going, or something akin to power/telephone where the lines are public and the
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Yeah, I'm visible for a split second in this... about 2 minutes in.
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The entity is forcing itself to do something. The government wants the government to do something. It's hardly what you're implying.
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I think a state government is well within its rights to dictate how best to save and spend its money. If a person works for a state government he or she is agreeing to work within the confines dictated by government policy. Similarly, a corporate IT department dictates what can and cannot be run on its network. Are you suggesting that an employee should be free to make those decisions without regard to what corporate or government policy dictates?
Besides that, the NH legislature isn't telling government off
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They also care about cost, and transparency, and lots of other things. This is NOT regulation of indviduals, but only self-regulation...
And while I love NH, and it's the free-est of the 50 states, it's far from perfect, and it's not yet the closest thing you can get to a libertarian state, just the closest right now in the US.
Re:Goverment doesn't know what to do with open sou (Score:5, Insightful)
How about we just get rid of government and let everyone decide what to do with their own goddamn money.
Because most of us like having things like sewage systems, streets, and someone to get the drunk drivers off the roads. Of course, with no roads, I guess the drunk drivers wouldn't be a problem.
And if you think people would band together to pay for basic infrastructure without any government-style coordination, you're out of your mind.
Open source is great. I use it for all kinds of things, but I don't have much faith that government can make it work to anyone's benefit.
Why not? They make proprietary software work for people's benefit. What's so different about open source software?
Let people keep their earnings and decide what solutions are best for themselves.
Most people would be more concerned about basic security than software solutions if you were to remove the government.
Otherwise, you might as well just have them at least support real business that actually employs someone.
Government is real business. Seriously. They provide services for their customers in exchange for money. Sure, the people who receive services and the people who pay aren't necessarily the same people (i.e. I pay road tax, but my street hasn't been repaved since it was built in the 1930s, since apparently no one knows how to rebrick a #*$%ing street anymore), but the concept is the same. You even get to vote for the officers, which is more than an shareholder does.
The government employs people, just like a business. It pays those people in real, actual money - which is more than many business do, what with stock options and whatnot. Government can't run without government employees. Those employees are regular people, just like you and me. I've met quite a few very competent sysadmins who were GS rated government employees.
Get rid of the government, and you'll find yourself needing to solve a lot of problems. Every solution to those problems will evolve into government. It's the way of the world. Don't like it? Build a shack in the middle of Idaho and live off the land.
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I Just wish they could do all that without the multi-trillion dollar price tag. I don't hate government I just hate most of ours.
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You fail to see the scale of the nation we live in.
Seriously. I'm a truck driver. This country is _big_. We have the third largest population of any country in the world. We have the largest economy in the world. Trillions are certainly appropriate.
Even if you were to cut government services to the bone (by anyone this side of Ron Paul's definition*), you'd still have a multitrillion dollar budget. It's a big number. This is a big country.
Personally, I think it's a (mostly) non-issue. We've been in
Re:Goverment doesn't know what to do with open sou (Score:5, Insightful)
You seem to be under the impression that if the government stops providing some services then those services won't be provided by other institutions. This is certainly _not_ true for all government activity.
Some services, yes. Not all. I'm well aware there are portions of the government that could be privatized successfully.
You seem to be under the impression that other institutions would provide all useful services provided by the government. That's certainly not true as well.
The idea that streets would not be built if it were not by the government is ridiculous.
Your street maybe. I'm probably the second wealthiest person on my street, only after a guy who inherited his mother's slumlord properties. I bring in around $2k/month. My street would be a loss.
Street maintenance could certainly be privatized, but someone has to hire and pay the company to do it, and someone has to make sure the poorer areas are maintained. Only a government is capable of this.
I'm not a hardcore socialist. I don't believe the government should own and control industry, outside of necessary regulatory duties (i.e. keep lead paint out of our food, make sure 1lb is really 1lb, etc.). I do believe the government is required to act in places where capitalism fails. Basic public infrastructure is one of those places.
The key difference between a government and a regular business is that a government extracts payment under the threat of violence, or in some cases, by using actual violence.
Companies would do the same if they were not prevented from doing so (by - you guessed it - the government). The government is a company who has a monopoly on violence against the populace.
I once lived somewhere where the electric and gas services were provided by a private company. If I didn't pay, I was under the threat of freezing to death in the winter. I don't see much difference.
Also, a share holder in a public company can trade his shares if he does not like how the company is run.
And you can squat in a shack in Idaho. Or you can move to somewhere where there is no government, like Somalia. Have fun with that.
Re:Goverment doesn't know what to do with open sou (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry to hear that. But what you are saying is that, given your limited resources, you'd prefer to spend money in things other than improving the quality of your street. That is totally reasonable.
My street doesn't get improved (it was a WPA project from the 1930s - the city won't rebrick it for some reason, and they can't pave over the bricks because the historical society won't let them), but that's besides the point. If I were to go out and rebrick the part of the street I own, it wouldn't do any good for the part of street in front of the vacant lot two houses down, or the part in front of the old woman down the street who gets $300/month on social security.
The city, on the streets that it actually does improve, improves streets all at once, to the same quality, with the same materials. And no, there's no way the people on my street would come together on this. The old woman can't pay, the drug dealer across the street wouldn't be interested, the drunk dude on the corner would just want to start a fight, etc.
Poorer areas don't have to be maintained. It would be nice if they were, but people might want to user their money for other things.
Thus increasing the class disparity in this country. Think about the consequences of that kind of thinking for a while. Look at countries where it prevails.
Places like India, where some people make good money and live in nice houses, while other people literally live in dumps, recycling garbage to buy enough rice to stay alive. Places like Nigeria, where the population lives in squalor, except for the people making money hand over fist in the oil trade.
A large class disparity makes for a dissatisfied, bitter populace. That breeds security problems. I don't know about you, but I like not living behind a barbed wire fence.
If you regard the company as violent for cutting your services, you'd have to regard your neighbors/friends/family/coworkers in the same way for not helping you pay the bill. Why are the gas company owners any more responsible for your wellbeing than your neighbor or your friend?
I never said I regarded the company as violent, or that the company was somehow responsible for my well-being. I was pointing out that I would suffer potentially fatal consequences if I failed to pay my bill. Not paying taxes is actually safer - the most they'll do is garnish my wages or put me in jail.
I don't think I'd like Somalia at all...
Somalia is what happens when you have an ineffectual government. People are people - regardless of religion, culture, whatever - we as a group are greedy bastards who look after ourselves and those we care about first. We don't organize well, and when we do, it's usually as a special interest group or a mob.
To keep a people calm and peaceful, they have to be satisfied with their situation (or at least satisfied enough that they won't risk losing what they have). First, you need security - you have to feel safe in your home and about on your business. The government provides that. Next you need a standard of living that isn't disgraceful. Most people here have that - including most poor people. That's provided either by the government or by the economic system it supports. Next you need the people to feel they have some control over their lives. We have democracy and the government prevents most monopolies from forcing themselves on the populace.
When you don't have these things, the people don't stay peaceful. Where do gangs form in this country? Places where the standard of living is the lowest and security is lax.
This is out of order, but it shouldn't hurt the context:
Agreed. I believe this is the primary function of government, although I'd call it an enterprise instead of a company.
I believe the primary function of government is to fill in the spaces where capit
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The key difference between a government and a regular business is that a government extracts payment under the threat of violence, or in some cases, by using actual violence.
Yes, of course. And without the government to stop them, there's no way the now unchained private business would ever think of using violence...
Or am I in a parallel universe where, say, the whole 19th century never happened?
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I agree with you. Checks and balances aren't perfect.
There is no perfect system, and I certainly don't claim government is perfect. My point is that I can't see a better system that wouldn't involve government.
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Carly Fiona? Stephen Elop?
I seem to recall a fair few CEOs working for wholly private and "free market" corporations getting tidy sums for running their companies to the ground.
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While I believe in a smaller government and "letting everyone decide what to do with their own goddamn money," the 'big red button to end government' doesn't exist. So what to do NOW?
I moved to NH, and work for smaller and more transparent government. I'm an elected State Representative, and bring my principles to the State House, and get stuff like this bill done. And I get paid $100 a year for doing so. Yes, $100 a year. Not $100k, $100 dollars in total.
So I'm not doing it for power, or for money, I'
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The idea is that they actually have to consider open source software. I imagine they think it'll be cheaper overall than purchasing proprietary software.
Think things like "Don't use Oracle to store a database with 2000 entries when MySQL will do the job just as well for cheaper." They can use Oracle if it's actually needed, but they have to give their reasons why.
I suspect it's actually more about the open document formats than anything else. Governments retain documents for a long time. How will you re
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So, if you're NH IT, pre-law, you do due diligence when selecting software
Talk about wild ass assumptions. In the real world, due diligence is only done when there is no way to avoid its costs. If Microsoft Office has been in use by all the Department of Motor Vehicle clerks since 1997, then prior to this law there has been no need to consider doing anything but buying into its next upgrade. Even if that means replacing all the desktop computers with new models that can handle the new software.
This law requires some people to actually start thinking instead of coasting on other
Re:Open Source Perpetuity? Don't make me laugh... (Score:5, Informative)
No, you don't understand the bill...
It doesn't REQUIRE them to use Open Source over other solutions, but to consider it, using cost benefits answers. And all of your objections are moot then, since this bill essentially DOES what you want it to do: "government adopting Common Open Data formats and selecting the software based on performance makes more sense." (performance and price = total cost benefit analysis, right?)
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Of course the point is that if you use Microsoft Office and Microsoft goes bankrupt, then you're left with your documents in a closed, proprietary format (and even Microsoft's "open", "standard" format is p
Re:Open Source Perpetuity? Don't make me laugh... (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, this is why the Secretary of State's office, via the State Archivist, came out in favor of the bill:
They have punch cards they legally must retain, and no way to read them. Data without the code/hardware to read it is useless, but we have to keep it all.
So the above is really true. Open formats are vital for data to be historically useful.
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Isn't this one of the standard arguments made in 'The Cathedral & the Bazaar?'? If a project dies, its source code is still with the people who got the software, and they are free to continue working on it and custom develop it to suit their requirements. Yeah, the code would be orphaned, but the government could either get in-house programmers who could read that source code as well as the documentation, and work on any required improvements or bug fixes. And not just that - let's say a new computer
Re:Free State Project (Score:5, Interesting)
As the submitter of the story, I just want to make 3 points:
1. Seth Cohn [slashdot.org] is a prime sponsor of the bill, and a fairly hardcore slashdotter. J'raxis [slashdot.org] is, like myself, an emeritus Director of Research for the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance... and a fairly hardcore slashdotter.
Q: What happens when the geeks rule? A: New Hampshire, baby!
2. I learned about the Free State Project right here on slashdot, back in 2003. How cool is that?
3. This is for real. This is not just web slacktivism. This is people taking back control of the government. AND IT'S HAPPENING. If you have a vaguely libertarian bone in your body, you really do owe it to yourself to see what's going on in New Hampshire.
I'd strongly recommend coming to the NH Liberty Forum [freestateproject.org]. People come every year, and after the experience, go back to their home states. Just long enough... to pack! [youtube.com]
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Jon was aware of the bill(s), but didn't have much to do with it, mostly due to time... but of course, his influence on me and so many others is one of the people at the root of this sort of thing.