India Moves To Censor Social Media 171
An anonymous reader writes "India's Telecoms minister has prompted an uproar after it was revealed he met with executives from Google and Facebook to pressure them into screening 'objectionable' content. Critics argue it is a dangerous step down China's censorship path. 'He denied such a demand was censorship. There is some content on the Internet that "any normal human being would be offended by," he said. The government has asked social media companies to develop a way to eliminate offensive content as soon as it is created, no matter what country it is created in, he said.'
But it fails (Score:2, Insightful)
The real story is this: India Moves TO Censor Social Media ... but it fails in the face of /. dupes./a. [slashdot.org]
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Well, they won't post racist insults on a technology site for one.
Civil disobedience. (Score:3, Insightful)
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I like the idea, but in general I think the kiddie-porn card trumps it. In a poll on the Swedish (arguably one of the countries where the dislike of censorship is strongest) hardware site Sweclockers (http://www.sweclockers.com/nyhet/14807-telia-filtrerar-internet-for-att-blockera-barnporr) 44% thinks "filtering" the internet for kiddie porn is a good course of action, while merely 39% see it for the counter-productive slippery slope that it is.
If kiddie porn is such a strong argument for censorship in Swed
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Feh. What would an Indian know about Civil Disobedience?
Re:Civil disobedience. (Score:4, Funny)
That cute girl you see at the laundromat won't go out with you? Civil disobedience.
Absolutely. It's clearly a government conspiracy that she won't go out with you.
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That cute girl you see at the laundromat won't go out with you? Civil disobedience.
Nope! Chuck Testa.
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That cute girl you see at the laundromat won't go out with you? Civil disobedience.
Absolutely. It's clearly a government conspiracy that she won't go out with you.
If only there were some way of coming across as a dangerous rebel.....I know.....CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE!!!!
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yes. just search this site for surveillance, repression, censorship and public enemy practices by governments, corporation and even judiciary. it will be enough.
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I'd rather search this site for pink unicorns, flowers and rainbows. I'm sure I'll find the world is a wonderfully cute and cuddly thing.
If you look hard enough, you'll find whatever you want to find. Doesn't necessarily make it the truth.
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Oh, for fuck's sake, that's your answer to everything. Social injustice?
What's the alternative? Blind social acceptance?
Censoring the Internet != Afternoon Egg McMuffin...
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Oh, for fuck's sake, that's your answer to everything. Social injustice?
What's the alternative? Blind social acceptance?
You could always join them. I'm sure you could pick up a Nazi uniform cheap on Ebay.
Censoring the Internet != Afternoon Egg McMuffin...
...and torture isn't a big mac, fries and a small coke. Your point? ;-)
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If they don't use CP as the bait then it's usually that old bogie Terrorism. No-one in the media has the brains or balls to understand that filtering won't do much to either of these.
That or, being shrewd businessmen overseeing a large flow of information (only some of which makes it to prime time), they understand very well that it won't do anything. Instead, they view rampant Statism and centralization of human life in terms of consequentialism, i.e. they believe it serves some kind of "greater good" so any evils it perpetrates are somehow worth while.
Consequentialism is simply the idea that "the ends always justify the means". It's the belief that you can do a truly good thing u
makes sense (Score:1)
Silencing Dissent (Score:5, Insightful)
I jest, but it's not like the US (where I was born and live) hasn't tried this sort of thing. The Internet kill switch, taking down sites without due process, and the need to filter the whole country.
This sort of shit needs to stop. Which will only happen when the government is "for the people" again, and not "for the corporations."
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He's already getting hit with a lot of backlash: #IdiotKapilSibal [twitter.com]
This move by India probably has a lot to do with this summer's online anger over government corruption that eventually
morphed into real world protests and forced the Indian Government to pass anti-corruption laws to placate the people.
It's part of India's long term goal to be able to track and silence those they consider trouble makers and rabble rousers.
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You joke, but you bring up a serious point that supports the idea that America continues to be a world innovator--"silencing dissent", as you so aptly put it, just happens to be the next natural step toward technological progress. It is merely a step back in order to take take two steps forward; that is, if the American people wish it to be so. Many seem content with a "not in my backyard" philosophy.
I gladly welcome "this sort of shit"
Re:Silencing Dissent (Score:4, Insightful)
.. maybe one day they'll come to their own senses of whether or not they enjoy freedoms when accessing networks ...
I cite the boiling frog meme. This is not the way to defend freedoms. If people sit around letting it happen, they will awake ome day as slaves.
Re:Silencing Dissent (Score:4, Interesting)
There is another meme that applies: to make an omelet, you need to break a few eggs.
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Yes, but in the past oppressing a population has required help from large parts of the population. It's estimated that STASI employed 2.5% of the population and that possibly as much as 7% were regular and 25-30% occasional informers. Today you can put computers on the job, they track every call, every webpage, every cash transaction, analyze, mine, build patterns and dossiers. Almost all advanced weapon systems now come with IFF codes and remote kill switches, even if you could convince parts of the milita
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People's expectations of freedom slowly increase
But increase over what tiny timeline - the last few hundred years? That's a blink of the eye in human history, not a sample you can use to make predictions about something as volatile as freedom.
That's why surfdom, absolute monarchy, and slavery are no longer acceptable.
Who said these are no longer "acceptable'? Acceptability is only relevant (a) where people care, and (b) if something is recognized to be what it actually is. All three of these either overtly exist or have just changed form into something less obviously tyrannical. Granted, it is still an overall improvement. Bu
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The government has asked social media companies to develop a way to eliminate offensive content as soon as it is created, no matter what country it is created in, he said.
You'll notice, he said to "eliminate", not filter.
Call me paranoid, but I think that's a not-so-subtle death threat directed at Richard Gere [msn.com].
Typical politician (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately a politician's view of "objectionable" is usually what the general population of their countries calls "political satire" or a "joke".
Which isn't surprising, seeing as these kind of censorship attempts are a joke in and of themselves.
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I've been saying that about the Holocaust (in Europe) for a long time.
Re:Typical politician (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not sure it's done for self-serving reasons, but it's bullshit either way:
There is some content on the Internet that "any normal human being would be offended by,"
I don't think I could write a better one-sentence example of institutional conformism. "Normal human beings" are a myth, and even if such a thing existed, they have no inherent right to censor the abnormal ones. Almost everyone can be offended by the words of another sane, sincere human being.
Can I claim to be a normal human being who is offended by this proposal? Perhaps HE should be censored.
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There is some content on the Internet that "any normal human being would be offended by,"
I don't think I could write a better one-sentence example of institutional conformism. "Normal human beings" are a myth, ...
Nah; you just have to understand something that he left out: his definition of a "normal human being", which is "anyone who agrees with me".
Note that, by this definition, there exists at least one normal human being: Mr. Sibal himself.
And, in a bit of recursion, we might note that the above definition of "normal" is in fact the normal definition used by most people. So when I talk about normal people, we also know that there is at least one person who fits my definition.
Can I claim to be a normal human being who is offended by this proposal? Perhaps HE should be censored.
Certainly you can, and he sho
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Unfortunately a politician's view of "objectionable" is usually what the general population of their countries calls "political satire" or a "joke".
Which isn't surprising, seeing as these kind of censorship attempts are a joke in and of themselves.
Context: I am a British national living in India.
I once showed an episode of UK panel show "Have I got News for You" to some of my Indian friends. They found it hilarious, but at the same time were also a little uncomfortable with - if not genuinely shocked by - the content.
When I asked about their reaction they explained that Indian culture, for better or worse, revolves around respect for authority figures. Whether that's your parents, your boss, your elders or political leaders, it is what is
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The public ridicule of the prime minister is more-or-less unthinkable, and would be widely condemned, possibly in a very ugly manner.
If that's the case, then why make such laws?
If someone tries to ridicule authority figures, they'll feel the backlash from the public itself, without the need for the government to be authoritarian.
Dear Telecom/Information Technology Minister Kapil (Score:1)
I find this minister offensive, CENSOR HIM! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I find this minister offensive, CENSOR HIM! (Score:4, Insightful)
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A moron, really? I don't think censorship is particularly moronic. Just evil. Do think the government doesn't know what it's doing? What would you do if you were an evil overlord?
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Goes to show... (Score:1)
Apparently, all the smart Indians have already emigrated.
Offensive content? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is some content on the Internet that "any normal human being would be offended by," he said.
I can't say I've ever seen content that I was offended by, aside from something directed at me personally, and I certainly can't think of any content that every normal human being would be offended by. Disgusted, sure. Saddened, disappointed, startled, but not offended.
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There is some content on the Internet that "any normal human being would be offended by," he said.
I can't say I've ever seen content that I was offended by, aside from something directed at me personally, and I certainly can't think of any content that every normal human being would be offended by. Disgusted, sure. Saddened, disappointed, startled, but not offended.
I'm offended by censorship.
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Plainly, Mr. Sibal has the best interests of India at heart but, unfortunately, he stopped short of the logical conclusion.
As evident from the fact that "there is some content on the Internet that any normal human being would be offended by", those that are not offended by it are clearly abnormal and have to to be dealt with accordingly. While euthanasia would be the preferred course of action, it could cause logistical problems, as well as adversely affect international relations. Therefore I suggest a t
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BUT, do normal human beings frequent slashdot?
They may, but we'll probably never know, because they're not posting anything.
I often hang out with a number of crowds that play several kinds of music, and often play for related dancing. There are occasional comments about the people in these crowds not being "normal". I like to reply along the lines of "Of course not; if we were normal, we'd all be at home, watching the Tube."
This usually gets grins, and the topic is dropped. It's obvious to all of us that this is literally true. Statistically "
Who gets to decide? (Score:5, Insightful)
..any normal human being
And who, exactly, gets to decide what a "normal" human being is, and what this mythical alleged "normal" human being would consider "offensive" or "non-offensive"? What's next for this jackass? Is he going to "decide" what is and is not art? *facepalm*
Re:Who gets to decide? (Score:4, Funny)
And who, exactly, gets to decide what a "normal" human being is
i do.... I'm normal, everyone else is weird.
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Re:Who gets to decide? (Score:4, Informative)
The ministry of truth.
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The ministry of truth.
Hey, great band!!!
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And who, exactly, gets to decide what a "normal" human being is, and what this mythical alleged "normal" human being would consider "offensive" or "non-offensive"?
Weeell, we usually understand this word as meaning the common, usual, average etc., but there's another, less know meaning that works quite well in this context: "normal" as that which adheres to a "norm". I doubt this politician used it in this way though. But if he did, he could answer with: "Why, ${BELIEF_SYSTEM}'s normative specialists, evidently!"
At which point you'd reply: "Good enough, yes, except for the fact that, according to ${MY_BELIEF_SYSTEM}, it's ${BELIEF_SYSTEM} that's abnormal."
Rinse, repea
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And who, exactly, gets to decide what a "normal" human being is,
The next religious war will commence shortly to decide that very question. The winners will define 'normal'. The losers will be burned out or driven out. Study the history of India, Mr Sibal. There are examples aplenty.
go back to writing poor code (Score:1)
Great Idea! (Score:2)
It's more childlike than evil (Score:1)
Censorship (Score:2)
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I always get amazed by the "I don't like it so it should not EXIST" attitude.
Right: "even though I have no good evidence whether the effects of whatever are bad or not, I don't like it so that is enough. I am told it is bad therefore it is". This is the central idea of fascism.
Yay Internet Prohibition! (Score:1)
The internet is for everyone (Score:2)
(A group whom I suspect is larger than the group of "normal people").
The world, and thus social media is full of offensive content, trying to eliminate it all is a fool's game.
People like me would be offended by bland social media bereft of any offensive content.
Re:I'm offended (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm offended people like him come to power.
But that is the exact sort of character that democratic systems allow into power. The world wide, elections are won by those who are charasmatic, say the right things on camera and during conferences - then once they are in office, all of their "true" goals come to light as they try to keep themselves in power. I don't want to Godwin this thread, but have a look at this democratic election in 1932 [wikipedia.org] and have a look at how people were misguided into who and what they voted for.
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Here's a relevant quote from the article:
Telecoms and Information Technology Minister Kapil Sibal met executives from Facebook, Google, Yahoo and Microsoft Monday to ask them to screen content, but no agreement with the companies was reached. Stinking of rotten body odor and unwashed genitalia, he excused himself from the streetside interview and urinated on a curb, hypocritically kicking a dog that was trying to do the same thing.
Returning to the coffee shop where the interview was taking place, spots of stray urine all over the crotch of his pants, Kapil gave both his pits a whif and resumed the interview. The representatives from Facebook, Google, Microsoft, and Yahoo asked him what his background was. Kapil stated that all of them should know, as Kapil is a coder for an outsourcing company with all of the big four as clients. "Hell," he stated, "it's the least you could do for me and my coworkers, we write your software." He then pointed at a pile of dog feces near the table and said, "You pay us instead of Americans to write code like that - Your country must be veddy veddy bad!"
When asked what Kapil's plans for the future were, he said, "Well, politics, obviously, but my team and I are finishing up the new Slashdot website. It works everytime, with every browser. They came to us because they couldn't make it themselves, and I am happy to say that is why people come to India for best coding practices. We are also responsible for adding all of the flashy stuff to Youtube, and for making Yahoo relevant again." After scratching his testes through his pants, Kapil coughed and said, "that's all. Thank you, come again," as he pulled a long stick of jerky out of his pocket, held it against his crotch pointing outward, and asked all of the representatives to shake it one-by-one. They all reluctantly did, as their holiday bonuses depended a lot on their sending of American jobs to Kapil's stewardship.
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At first I thought you made the AC comment and then posted this as meta-humor, but you usually sign your AC posts.
violence, intimidation, + fraud is not democracy (Score:2)
there were elections there, maybe, but the Sturmabteilung and other organs of the Nazi party used violence and intimidation to corrupt the voting process.
it doesn't mean they were democratic elections.
the first things that the Nazis did when they took power in 1933 were to abolish all democratic institutions, i.e. they didn't have any more elections, the parliament didn't debate issues, there was no more independent judicial system, free speech was destroyed, the free press was abolished, and every institut
Re:violence, intimidation, + fraud is not democrac (Score:5, Insightful)
.. the first things that the Nazis did when they took power in 1933 were to abolish all democratic institutions, i.e. they didn't have any more elections, the parliament didn't debate issues, there was no more independent judicial system, free speech was destroyed, the free press was abolished, and every institution of society was subordinated under Hitler and the Nazi hierarchy.
This is exactly what some of our "democratic" governments would like to do. However, they have more subtle and clever ways of subverting democracy that are far more effective.
Re:I'm offended (Score:5, Interesting)
Obviously this happens because people are generally stupid (don't take it as a flamebait, it's just an observation), and people vote for those, who promise them something regardless of long term consequences. That's how the character from your comment got into power, that's how people like Hoover and FDR and Obama got into power, they promise things that will deliver short term satisfaction but the long term consequences are always disastrous. What's funny is how many complain that corporations only look at short term gains, but that's not specific to corporations, it's just how people most often behave because they don't normally spend any amount of time thinking for the long term and even when they do, most of the time they lack the capacity to appreciate the real consequences of their choices.
Here are some examples, I am going to post them as questions first:
1. Is it a correct thing to allow interpretation of Constitution?
2. Is it a correct thing to allow the government live on debt?
3. Is it a correct thing to allow the government control money supply and cost?
4. Is it a correct thing to give the government power to insure people in any way (from deposit insurance to health and retirement)?
5. Is it a correct thing to give the government power to tax people's incomes?
6. Is it a correct thing to give government power to provide security against criminal activity by diminishing individual liberties?
7. Is it a correct thing to allow government regulate business?
8. If these same questions were posed differently, would you have recognized them in their true form?
---
The correct long term answer to items 1-7 is always a 'no', it cannot be a 'yes' under any circumstances, but that's the long term thinking.
In a short term answering with a 'yes' often seems like a good idea for unsophisticated voters (and those who don't care or immediately stand to gain from the government power that will immediately provide them with something like a contract or a special privilege).
But the fact remains that majority of people don't have ability to think long term, they don't have ability and mental capacity to recognize the real consequences and often they have prejudices and ideologies that would guarantee that they will answer those questions the wrong way. That's why people like that come to power.
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the above comment proves my point.
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I would rather make a clear "it depends". As with many things there is no clear Yes / No. The big problem how much is the right thing amount the government should influence whatever.
1. Yes, the Constitution should be interpreted. You need to adapt the interpretation to the technological realities and resulting implications. You think GPS tracking is unconstitutional? Go look it up, there is no provision on this. Should the Constitution be perverted beyond the original intent, definitely No.
2. I am all f
Re:I'm offended (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously this happens because people are generally stupid (don't take it as a flamebait, it's just an observation), and people vote for those, who promise them something regardless of long term consequences.
What do you expect? They're government educated by a system that is more concerned about not hurting anyone's feelings than it is with things like dialectic, critical thinking, and instilling intellectual independence. Most are far too passive (something promoted in the media by repeated example) to recognize this as a problem on their own and educate themselves despite the Information Age. This page [cantrip.org] sums it up nicely. The "lesson of dependency" is the hinge on which all the others rest.
I'll highlight the most glaring stupidity of this proposal, the unspoken and unacknowledged aspect it deliberately ignores.
There is some content on the Internet that "any normal human being would be offended by," he said.
... that you almost definitely won't see unless you are looking for it. It reminds me of people who call up a talk show to tell the host how much they hate him, his views, and his show ... yet they're quite familiar with all of it. You'd think a person would go with one of the multitude of other choices and listen to something other than whatever he finds offensive, but that would mean having nothing to bitch about. Nothing to bitch about would mean being denied their five minutes of climbing up on their high horse and feeling superior to someone else while they pontificate against them. This is very important to nothing human beings with no real sense of purpose in their lives and would be a great loss to them.
There are things I don't like so I don't watch them, listen to them, read them, etc, but it never occurs to me to feel offended. I don't get any pleasure or satisfaction from trying to force my will on others because I'm not an insecure fevered ego. If I were, I'd feel a sacred duty to work on fixing it while never making it someone else's problem. So, the fact that I don't enjoy something doesn't make me feel like no one else should (assuming it's just a matter of taste -- i.e. I don't feel that way about armed robbery -- since some of you are childish and jump all over every little thing not spelled out for you).
"I'm offended!" is a covert and thus cowardly way of saying "therefore, you should yield to me and change it to accommodate my tastes". It's an emotional appeal unconsciously designed to conceal a desire to control. The people who want to control others using this method are far too timid to try gaining any kind of domination or power to get what they want, so they go for the pity appeal instead. They try to gain the sympathy of someone who already has power or authority and by proxy obtain the control they desire. If they are thwarted, they accuse the authority of being insensitive and try to ridicule or shame (i.e. manipulate) them into doing their will.
The minority who weren't looking for "offensive" material and saw it anyway were duped by crapflooders, goatse trolls and the like. These are the same disruptive types who aren't going to respect censorship laws. They would view them as a challenge. If anything, using Tor or some other international, jurisdiction-crossing proxy to evade censorship would only add to their thrill.
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The minority who weren't looking for "offensive" material and saw it anyway were duped by crapflooders, goatse trolls and the like.
Which is precisely the point of the attempted censorship. You admit yourself, from your lofty view of total freedom to say what you like, that people will be exposed to offensive material. You practice self-censorship (i.e. burying your head in the sand) in the face of something you don't like. I don't think that government censorship is an appropriate response, but "la-la-la I can't hear you" doesn't always work.
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Which is precisely the point of the attempted censorship.
It will work about as well as drug prohibition. It's a law that is easily evaded and won't be widely respected. Yes you can try to order men around this way and micromanage their every action but it never really works. On an international Internet it's just too easy to get around it.
You admit yourself, from your lofty view of total freedom to say what you like, that people will be exposed to offensive material.
Yes, they will. Let's see. The most comprehensive, amazing, massive collection of information that has ever appeared before in all of human history plus the ability to instantly communicate with nearly anyone in the world a
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Re:I'm offended (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:I'm offended (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Is it a correct thing to allow interpretation of Constitution?
...
The correct long term answer to items 1-7 is always a 'no', it cannot be a 'yes' under any circumstances
...which means you have a constitution that states things so precisely that it's impossible to draw more than one conclusion about what anything it says means. Do you have an example of such a constitution? (Hint: "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries" is not part of such a constitution - what's a "limited Time"? This is not, BTW, an idle question, given, for example, various Acts of Congress that keep extending the lifetime of copyrights.)
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Clearly, if we are having trouble "interpreting" the consitution using modern-day language, the answer is to look at the spirit and intentions of the founders.
...which still means interpreting the constitution based on what the founders said - and they might not always have stated things explicitly, so now you're interpreting that, as well.
For christ's sake, we are talking about the most expensive, most powerful government AND world empire (with military bases in some 150 countries) that has ever existed.
"Most expensive ... government" only makes sense if you mean "per capita" or "as a fraction of GNP" or something such as that. It should not come as a complete surprise that the U. S. government spends more, on an absolute basis, than, say, the government of Luxembourg. Is the U.S. government really spending more per capita,
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1. Is it a correct thing to allow interpretation of Constitution?
No, there is already a mechanism for it. If it's broke, amend it.
2. Is it a correct thing to allow the government live on debt?
No, debt has to be paid eventually otherwise it's theft, not borrowing.
3. Is it a correct thing to allow the government control money supply and cost?
Obviously yes; by definition money is a government construct, it exists by law otherwise business would mint their own cash or we'd barter. [Fiat currency is fiat because you can use it to pay tax, that's what makes it special compared to an "IOU"]
4. Is it a correct thing to give the government power to insure people in any way (from deposit insurance to health and retirement)?
This is a gray question, it depends on the person. Either system is sustainable though guaranteed safety nets tend to make place
Re:I'm offended (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Is it a correct thing to allow interpretation of Constitution?
Yes. The societal context in which the Constitution is viewed changes, as do the very meanings of words (such an "insure" in the preamble to the Constitution, which now relates almost exclusively to financial matters). As an example, consider the curtailing of "free speech" to exclude speech which causes "imminent lawless action". Falsely warning about a bomb in a crowded building is extremely likely to cause assault, theft, and vandalism as people try to escape. Merely advocating illegal behavior at an indeterminate time in the future is not imminent, and is thus not prohibited. There are, of course, other laws that can affect how speech may be presented. You can not abuse or harass others with your ideas, for example. In my opinion, nobody should have a Constitutionally-protected right to be a jackass.
2. Is it a correct thing to allow the government live on debt?
Yes, more or less. First, a large portion of the government's debt is long-term obligations that are not yet fully funded, nor expected to be. If the government has said it will pay several million dollars for a new fighter jet over the next 20 years, that full several-million dollar figure is counted as debt, even though only a small part of it is actually due now. Planning for future expenses is a reasonable thing to do, no? Another large portion of debt is a financial device to free up quantities of money for other uses. More on that shortly.
3. Is it a correct thing to allow the government control money supply and cost?
Yes, when necessary. The government acts (financially) as a large single entity, so if anyone's going to control the money supply, it's going to be the government. Is that control really necessary, though?
According to modern monetary theory, the answer is again "yes". A strong economy is one where money moves freely and quickly, and everyone gets what they want. In other words, "to each according to his need". When the government adds money to the economy through the Federal Reserve Bank, it also adds an equal amount of debt. Increasing the monetary supply allows the public to have more money to spend immediately, with the knowledge that said money will disappear again shortly. It enables a strong economy to be built (or rebuilt), and when the economy is running again, the money supply can be reduced gradually to improve efficiency and reduce the effects of inflation.
There is a riddle about a man dying, leaving his 19 horses to be divided among his three sons, with the eldest receiving half, the middle receiving one fourth, and the youngest receiving one fifth. After trying for several days to figure out how to divide a horse, the local wise man came and brought his own horse, adding it to the pool. The eldest received 10, the middle received 5, and the youngest received 4. The wise man then took his horse and left.
The economy works similarly. With the temporary addition of money, transactions can be processed faster and easier, and operations can go more smoothly. The rapid response of the Federal Reserve Bank reduces the effect of recessions, and speeds recovery.
4. Is it a correct thing to give the government power to insure people in any way (from deposit insurance to health and retirement)?
Yes, when it's a matter that will "insure domestic Tranquility" and "promote the general Welfare".
Deposit insurance reduces the effect of bank runs. Before 1933, when a bank was in danger of closing, customers would rush to get their money out, before it became lost in the disappearing bank. Since banks can't keep all of their holdings on hand at once, some people would inevitably lose their savings. Now, there is no need to make that rush to withdraw, because even if banks are closed, the money is protected. Less damage from bank runs means the banks keep more money available, are are less likely to
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nobody should have a Constitutionally-protected right to be a jackass.
- yet the nazis are protected in their speech with the Constitution.
Everybody has the right to be protected from the government under the Constitution regardless of their speech.
You don't have Constitutional protection against your peers, so if you act like a jackass you may and sometimes will end up being punched in the face. That's the risk you take, and the criminal court may find that this was an assault and the person who punched you is punished for it.
Yes, more or less. First, a large portion of the government's debt is long-term obligations
- wrong. Any debt that government gets into is
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Here's my take on those:
1. Interpretation of the constitution might be considered to include such things as interpreting "persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" to include e-mail messages, computer records and the contents of your cell phone during a traffic stop. Interpreting it _not_ to mean those things is also an interpretation (a bad one), but both ways of seeing it are interpretations. It's a 200+ year old document. Even with the amendment process, it still h
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5. Is necessary for the government to exist and to serve its function
3 and 7 are functions of the government (at least to an extent) and if they weren't the state would be very close to anarchy and there would be very large
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1. Is it a correct thing to allow interpretation of Constitution?
So who holds the "True" interpretation of the document? How do they prove, beyond a doubt that they hold the "true" truth, the one that was locked firmly in the founder's heads. Basically your saying "my interpretation is right and because your interpretation is different, it is wrong, since mine is right". Which is a pretty blatant fallacy.
3. Is it a correct thing to allow the government control money supply and cost?
I don't see why not. Government exists for "the people", corporations exist "for themselves", someone has to protect the former from the latter, which is why the fo
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I'm sorry, can't resist to argue you here, I don't even care about your libertarian views or whatever the correct term is: it's all about point 1.
Saying you can't interpret a text is saying you may not give it meaning. You state the point as if interpretation is a voluntary thing, a way of twisting the 'true meaning' of a text, kind of like religious extremist might do.
However, without interpretation words will not make any sense.
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The Constitution is always "interpreted" when the politicians/judges are trying to do something that is against the idea, on which the country was founded.
They don't 'interpret' the document when they are not trying to subvert and destroy it.
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1. Is it a correct thing to allow interpretation of Constitution? 2. Is it a correct thing to allow the government live on debt? 3. Is it a correct thing to allow the government control money supply and cost? 4. Is it a correct thing to give the government power to insure people in any way (from deposit insurance to health and retirement)? 5. Is it a correct thing to give the government power to tax people's incomes? 6. Is it a correct thing to give government power to provide security against criminal activity by diminishing individual liberties? 7. Is it a correct thing to allow government regulate business? 8. If these same questions were posed differently, would you have recognized them in their true form? --- The correct long term answer to items 1-7 is always a 'no', it cannot be a 'yes' under any circumstances, but that's the long term thinking.
Oh ffs. To believe that the "correct" answer to those questions is always no demonstrates a breathtaking ignorance of history. What's worse, you consider yourself a "sophisticated" voter!
Those questions have been answered no repeatedly, by similarly-minded people, and have repeatedly ended in widespread, disastrous, often violent failures.
Are you unaware of the violence and damage wrought by strict literalists of various types? It continues to this day. Why would you think constitutional literalists w
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Wait a second. The answer to #1 is "no"? How the hell do you write a Constitution in such a way that it doesn't require interpretation? Even a plain English sentence requires interpretation, let alone something written a couple hundred years ago because of changes in language. A Constitution will always be a document in need of revision, albeit sparingly, and it will always require interpretation. That's what courts are for, for example, and why we have legislators that if they get sufficient consensus and pushing from their constituents they can amend the Constitution.
Oh, its even worse than that. While interpreting the constitution should naturally be done with great care and respect, its worth noting that it is DOCUMENTED FACT, that several clauses in the constitution are intentionally vague because no more specific language could be agreed on. In other words, the founding fathers pretty much wrote several of the arguments that still exist today straight into our constitution knowingly ...
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The constitution was only meant to be temporary.
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Question is wrong.. should say 'Is it a correct thing to let *legislators* interpret the constitution".. Your courts do it all the time.. it's their mandate, in fact..
Well, to be fair, the courts' ability to interpret the consitution is not actually explicitly stated in said document. They asserted that power in an early Supreme Court decision ( Marbury vs. Madison) [wikipedia.org] and didn't get impeached for it -- in part because it actually reduced the authority of the court by stating congress didn't have the power to extend the authority of the court, a fascinating slight of hand, Chief Justice Rehnquist noted in multiple speeches on the history of the court -- thus making it the
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Wait a second. The answer to #1 is "no"? How the hell do you write a Constitution in such a way that it doesn't require interpretation? Even a plain English sentence requires interpretation, let alone something written a couple hundred years ago because of changes in language.
I'm sure the belief that one need not interpret the Constitution is a result of such brilliance as: A=A.
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That's why I propose to establish a Sortition [wikipedia.org] system where a body of randomly selected jurors (obviously screened for violent crimes, mental health, etc) would be given governing power over the region the jurors are from. The State Jury might decide to elect one of the State Governor candidates as State Minister, but they will retain power to oversee and override his/her decisions, as well as the power to remove or add members to the Minister's Cabinet. The system could be established at any single level or
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I thought she dropped out ages ago?
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India is a democratic country, right? (Score:5, Insightful)
If "Democracy" is so good, so perfect, why can't the Indians elect someone with more integrity?
Re:India is a democratic country, right? (Score:5, Insightful)
If military coups are so good, why is Pakistan such a hotbed of terrorism and nuclear proliferation?
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If "Democracy" is so good, so perfect, why can't the Indians elect someone with more integrity?
I am not sure if you mean this as a criticism of democracy or not, but - part of the price of democracy is that people are given the power to vote stupid people in who do dumb things. (Assuming we are talking about a "real" democracy with fair elections, not one of the sham ones - I am not sure where India falls here.)
If they have a real democracy, then after this dumb idea is rolled out and fails spectacularly, then they should have the ability to vote in a new politician who promises to remove it.
I und
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While I'm not entirely sure how good or bad the Indian elections are... I do know that Indian people have a deep racism/classism for one of their Indian subgroups (I forget the actual name given to these people, but they get the shittiest jobs possible in their society and have been abused multiple ways over their history)... I also know that Indian government houses deep corruption where anyone with money and status can have anyone 'lesser' (basically anyone who doesn't have the means to do the same to the
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If "Democracy" is so good, so perfect, why can't the Indians elect someone with more integrity?
Because demcracy as practiced by the western world requires that people vote for politicians.
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'cos there's no one left. Just as some Americans point out that both R and D are only loyal to different sets of corporate masters and have no interest in the welfare of the common people, here it's all about naked power grab for its own sake. India has a multi party system, but all of them pander to various communities and vote banks.
Educated urban Indians such as yours truly have simply dissociated themselves from the political process over the last 64 years since independence with the broad (and mostly t
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Application forms for the Catholic priesthood are available in the lobby
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What are you saying? There's all kinds of good reasons for this. Like, uh... think of the children! Yeah, that's it. And the terrorists, too! What about people infringing upon the copyright of others (the most serious crime of all)?