HarperCollins Wants Library EBooks to Self-Destruct After 26 Loans 181
An anonymous reader writes: "HarperCollins has decided to change their agreement with e-book distributor OverDrive [and other distributors, too]. They forced OverDrive, which is a main e-book distributor for libraries, to agree to terms so that HarperCollins e-books will only be licensed for checkout 26 times. Librarians have blown up over this, calling for a boycott of HarperCollins, breaking the DRM on e-books -- basically doing anything to let HarperCollins and other publishers know they consider this abuse."
Cory Doctorow, who wrote TFA, says: "For the record, all of my HarperCollins ebooks are also available as DRM-free Creative Commons downloads. And as bad as HarperCollins' terms are, they're still better than Macmillan's, my US/Canadian publisher, who don't allow any library circulation of their ebook titles."
Unsaid but... (Score:5, Funny)
Harper Collins also wants libraries to self-destruct after being used 26 times.
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in DRM America, Libraries want Harper Collins to destruct after being sued 26 times!
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DRM America is worse than Soviet Russia. Soon there will be a media tax instead that everyone has to pay because the media industry says that everyone is guilty.
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There already is. If you use a Music CD or a standalone CD burner you have paid for this. Other countries likewise implement something similar.
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I was going to reply with links, but I guess it is no longer the case...
There used to be special media that was sold for music recording, it had an additional cost associated with it to pay a licensing fee to the media companies. It was also the only media that would work in the stand alone cd recorder devices. This was in the US, but you are right in that every blank disc in Canada has a built in fee to pay for "piracy"
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No they don't.
Even a single use is a lost sale. Remember, sharing is stealing!
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No they don't.
Even a single use is a lost sale. Remember, sharing is stealing!
Which is a slightly more logical argument than saying skipping the commercials is stealing.
Considering the fact that the latter bashit insane logic was successful at trial and tanked SonicBlue, the first (and only) manufacturer of the auto-skip commercial DVR's, I am willing to bet that HarperCollins will find some receptive (read corrupt) Senator to make eBooks in libraries illegal and that it in order to enforce it we all need to have 100% surveillance in cyberspace.
You know..... if logic and precedent ar
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Re:Unsaid but... (Score:4, Insightful)
OMFG, self-destroying information. What could possibly go wrong? Maybe what we need is some common middle ground. How about we let Harper-Collins decide which information should be destroyed, which should be altered, and which should persist?
It has become clear to me that the USA simply isn't ready for a digital information age, and whomever should have the power to effect change, cannot (for whatever reason). I think it is time to exclude Americans from the table of countries looking to move forward with this technology, and in a generation or two, they'll "tear down that wall" and catch up.
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What *exactly* do ebook publishers do? (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, really. What are they being paid for? The author writes a book, presumably in digital form... ebook publisher does exactly what before posting it into the Apple store or Amazon? Sprinkle fairy dust on it?
I can see the need for an editor to proofread and make some quality suggestions, so freelance or editing companies, but then? Advertising? Google Ads...
and?
Buh bye publishing houses.
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I know you are joking but i bet they would rather get paid every time a book is merely removed from the shelf and opened.
The very idea of self-destructing information is scary.
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The one-loan-per-license restriction is the only compromise I am willing to make.
I hope you mean one loan at a time per license (ie, the same as a physical book in a library).
OK....... (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree to their terms but I will be using loan money. It ceases to function after 28 days and gets returned to me.
No deal?? ok I'll just pirate them. You lose.
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LOL (Score:2)
look elsewhere (Score:3)
It's okay, I've found gigpedia & usenet have simpler checkout procedures.
It's asinine that library ebooks should self destruct. If they want to negotiate a minimum loan duration to force the library to buy more of popular books, like maybe 1 day per 100 pages, well fine, but checkout counts run contrary to the whole idea of libraries.
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I'd sort of assumed that they were licensed the way that other media is licensed. But either way, the library buys a certain number of copies, and I don't see any reason why ebooks should be treated differently than regular books. Well, perhaps the fact that they don't wear out might warrant a little something to help the publisher, but this is just asinine.
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Restoring damaged pages from a digital repository of page scans is a logical step
Printing replacement copies from a digital repository of ebooks is a logical step from that
Loaning out ebooks from the digital repository is a logical step from THAT.
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OK, I'm no expert, but I've checked out a lot of library books. I've never seen this printing-scanning-pasting evolution you describe.
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I have, it typically happens at larger places like Dallas Public LIbrary or at a College Library.
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I'd sort of assumed that they were licensed the way that other media is licensed.
I guess that's true, in a way.
Virtually no media is licensed. When you buy a book from a bookstore, you simply buy it. There's no license. You can do anything you want with it, as long as you don't break the law. Making copies of copyrighted books is against the law (unless you fall within certain exceptions). Reading or lending copies of copyrighted books is not against the law, (provided that you lawfully have access to them -- you aren't allowed to break into a building in order to read a book, for examp
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Back in the old days, the rationale behind licensing software for ordinary use was that in order to run it, in order to copy it on to a different medium (e.g. installing something from tapes or floppies onto a hard disk), or in order to make backups, copies would have to be made, and making those copies could be unlawful if copyright law applied to computer software. Therefore, the user would need a license in order to do those things if copyright applied. If it didn't apply, better to have some sort of con
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The GPL example isn't complex, it's simple.
I didn't say that the GPL was complex. The GPL covers a situation more complex than: Here is one copy of a program, you may run it on one computer (making copies or adaptations as needed to accomplish that), and may make backups.
As v2 of the GPL says:
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted....
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There was another comment down thread saying "DRM is the end of history" or "society ends with successful DRM" or some such. Sounds like a good meme.
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It's especially insane when you consider how much extra work is needed to make an e-"book" emulate a physical book. Something which by default is simply a file easily copied and transfered between different media.
Where have I heard this before? (Score:5, Funny)
"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further. "
Re:Where have I heard this before? (Score:5, Funny)
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From my thread on artificial scarcity... (Score:3)
From http://yuhongbao.blogspot.com/2010/06/artificial-scarcity-drm.html [blogspot.com] :
"Fair use rights
DRM is often used unintentionally or intentionally to take away fair use rights and sometimes sell them back, assisted by anti-circumvention provisions in laws like the DMCA that applies regardless of things like fair use rights."
In this case it is of course first sale, but the point is still the same.
Why paper books are better (Score:5, Insightful)
They work when the vendor changes formats for newer releases
They work when civilization collapses and they're found centuries later in a cave
And the don't magically turn into pumpkins when the clock strikes twelve.
There is of course, a way to make a normal book stop working when the availability of its content becomes a problem. It's called fire. It's generally bad form to burn a paper book. Why exactly is it socially acceptable to DRM a book again?
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They work when civilization collapses and they're found centuries later in a cave
Absolutely. As well as lending out, one of the primary functions of libraries used to be as an archive. Many/most libraries quickly jumped on the e-* bandwagon, ignoring that fundamental property in favour of cheaper acquisitions. Now they're reaping the benefits. I'm glad they're fighting back, or at least complaining. Unfortunately the argument still centers mostly based on arguments over cost rather than realizing what is being lost..
Re:Why paper books are better (Score:5, Insightful)
They work when the power goes out
My Kindle can easily last for a week without recharging. If the power goes out completely for longer than that, I think there will be other things that I'll be worrying about.
(Naturally, I'm talking about fiction books and other literature I read for fun here. A decent hardcover book on survival basics should always be in one's collection "just in case").
They work when civilization collapses and they're found centuries later in a cave
Why would I care?
They work when the vendor changes formats for newer releases
If an ebook can be read and interpreted by the reader, it can also be converted. I used to own a Sony reader and converted stuff to LRF for it; now I convert it to ePub for my phone and tablet, and to MobiPocket for my Kindle. It has never been a problem.
DRM is a problem, but that is a different issue.
Why exactly is it socially acceptable to DRM a book again?
Now we get to the crux of the matter. You seem to be confusing e-books in general with DRM. It's true that most popular online stores only sell DRM-encumbered books today, but there are still many legal (and even more illegal) ways to get an e-book with no strings attached.
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They work when civilization collapses and they're found centuries later in a cave
Why would I care?
It's happened (more or less) before. Aside from just being nice to help future historians, religious scholars, readers of classical literature, etc., know about us for their own enlightenment, if civilization collapses, preserved books can keep knowledge alive. They helped out the Renaissance quite a bit, although had to be discarded as we progressed to the Enlightenment, since they hadn't gotten that far themselves.
You seem to be confusing e-books in general with DRM.
True, but even without DRM, there's nothing to indicate that electronic records are particul
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CNC machines, of the laser or router variety, should do the job nicely.
What about reg'lar old 3D printers? The enviros keep telling us that PVC or polystyrene, or whatever it is those things print with aren't susceptible to biological decay. Perhaps that's a less expensive alternative to wearing out end mills or burning out lasers?
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Jesus Christ. You don't care about the survival of your own species? WTF is wrong with you, in addition to playing Devil's advocate for the Devil?
If the survival of our species is in jeopardy, the last thing on my mind will be if a Gray anthropologist likes my taste in literature.
Re:Why paper books are NOT better (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't work in the dark.
They cost a forest and a polluted river.
They require huge structures to house them, constant vigilance to watch for mold and deterioration, mice and fire.
Caves are not where you find books.
They bring jack booted thugs to demand their surrender for burning.
Books have to be carried around, you can never carry very many of them. Moving house is a bitch.
Shipping them is expensive. Printing them is expensive. This leads to a artificial scarcity of ideas and knowledge.
Books out of print may never come back into print. If you didn't buy it then, it may not be possible ever again.
Long after the copyright has expired, the Physical DRM encumbering books still hinders their distribution and replication.
ok, I'll get off your lawn now.....
Re:Why paper books are NOT better (Score:4, Insightful)
They bring jack booted thugs to demand their surrender for burning.
Dude that is so old school. These days you don't need firemen to burn unwanted books/ideas. In a world of electric books on multi-media devices there are two far simpler options:
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Do books cause more pollution than creating an e-reader?
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They bring jack booted thugs to demand their surrender for burning.
At least that is a conspicuous abuse of power. With e-books, someone at amazon enters a command or two and Orwell's works go *POOF*
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Are you for hire, my hero?
Re:bad form to burn a paper book (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, you might be on to an idea.
Can we contact the agents for Ray Bradbury for permission to crowd-source Fahrenheit 451?
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They work when civilization collapses and they're found centuries later in a cave.
I'm buying the book so I can read it, not so future archaeologists can.
There is of course, a way to make a normal book stop working when the availability of its content becomes a problem. It's called fire. It's generally bad form to burn a paper book. Why exactly is it socially acceptable to DRM a book again?
Not the same thing. Book burning is used by dictators and fanatics to censor the content of books they don't like. They don't want you to read the book at all.
Publishers want to use DRM to keep extorting money out of you. They don't care what the book says, as long as you pay for the privilege of reading it.
The closest we've come to an ebook-burning so far is the mechanism that allowed Amazon to yank illegitimately sold copies of 1984 f
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Pumpkins??? Oooh, I could easily make them as pies. I love pumpkin pies. ;)
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They work when civilization collapses and they're found centuries later in a cave
Most paper in books don't last that long. I'd guess 150 years is the limit.
The documents we do have that are much older were made using a (more expensive) process which includes durability as a side effect. There's no way one can produce the volume of books we do using that kind of process - it would be prohibitively expensive.
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For loose enough definitions of "work". Yes, I can read them, but they look out of place on my bookshelf!!111!!!! AAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGG!!!!1111!!!!! aasgklj goigno iergoihrgohqpoigq oighqeroigqerglkrfvqerfgfrgm lkds lkfm dfgaioetpiurgeqag;klegnrk eqgjeqrgjlkdf
NO CARRIER
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They work when the power goes out
Not at night.
Another assault on The Commons (Score:5, Interesting)
This is just another attack from the corporate powers against what is known as "The Commons". They won't be happy until they've destroyed any social institution that doesn't function to create profits for corporations. From prisons to libraries, there have been institutions in our society that we hold "in common". Public libraries, public schools, public safety (police and fire departments) even parks are all facing coordinated assaults on their very existence as public institutions. Corporations hate these things because people make use of them without enriching the economic elite. Hell, they don't even believe you should be able to lend something you bought to a neighbor or friend.
It can only happen if we go along with it.
What Harper Collins wants to do, what the RIAA and MPAA want to do, make a great case for civil disobedience, which in this case might take the form of "piracy" (an inaccurate label). Why would you want to buy a book from someone who holds you in such contempt?
And it is definitely possible to support the artists without supporting the corporations. It just takes a little more thought and effort.
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Very true, and it goes far beyond copyright. Even here in Sweden, once a society where solidarity was the guiding spirit, corporations are now running charter schools for profit with taxpayer money. They are saving on things like libraries, gyms, etc. that public schools are obliged to have, and sending the profits to their venture-capitalist owners. Corporations will stop at nothing to earn that extra buck, and we happen to have a neo-liberal government which is more than happy to help them along...
They better not block screen readers and the blind (Score:3)
They better not block screen readers and the blind should sue.
The solution is a simple 5 steps: (Score:4, Interesting)
1) Print
2) Scan
3) OCR
4) PDF
5) Lend at will, as many times as you please.
Although it isn't legal, in this case I think it could and should be regarded as simple civil disobedience. Prohibition was brought down largely by people's flagrant disregard for it. If enough people thumb their noses at this foolishness, then perhaps we can all stop fighting about obsolete business models and get on with taking full advantage of the things our shiny new technology offers us.
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If their DRM is anything like other publishers use for their e-books, it is trivially removed without need to print/re-scan. Remember, DRM is flawed by design, since it necessarily puts the encryption keys where the user can always reach them - he just needs to be sufficiently motivated.
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I guess I'll just uncheck "Obey DRM restrictions" under preferences in kpdf.
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Is it illegal? I mean, I don't recall books coming with any sort of license agreement that would forbid you from digitizing them and allowing one person at a time to view said digital back-ups. I'm not a lawyer or anything, so I have no idea what law that would run afoul of -- but it certainly sounds like fair use to me.
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Replace "thumb their noses" with "execute every last IP and copyright troll", and you might be on to something.
The big problem with things like the DMCA and egregious copyright abuse, is we (consumers) let it happen. We all recognize that good work should be rewarded, but the rules are set up in a way that gives way too much power to the publishers and distributors... often not even the content creators themselves, who sign away their rights. This abusive practice needs to be stopped. In the age of the
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Actually, with the copyright law provided exceptions for libraries, it just might be legal for the libraries to do exactly that for their lending, backup and storage needs.
Libraries are in trouble (Score:3, Insightful)
Although it is nice to believe that the community is charitable enough to want to spend money on putting books into the hands of people that can't afford them, a lot of people aren't willing to fund public health for poorer people. If you aren't willing to fund doctors for poor kids, you probably don't give a rats about making sure they have access to books. What is comes down to is that as much as a certain segment of the community likes the IDEA of libraries, the majority of the community doesn't give a rats arse because they never use them. That makes them an easy cut when local municipalities are trying to right the balance sheets.
People would rather less services than more tax and that puts libraries, increasingly less utilized, squarely into the "this is a luxury" column.
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Of course, the modern information access that is being demanded directly contradicts the business model of most copyright holders. Now the question is, which of these two is unsustainable... and
How does the e-book know that it has been loaned? (Score:2)
/* empty */
obRMS (Score:5, Insightful)
No Surprise (Score:2, Insightful)
Harper Collins = Newscorp = Rupert Murdoch = Fox
nobody wants to work anymore (Score:2)
nobody wants to work anymore, everyone just wants to get paid
LOL @ Doctorow (Score:2, Funny)
All I take from this, is that Cory Doctorow needs to have all of his book rights under a better publisher than Macmillan.
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I was going to say that what I took from it was that no amount of permissive licensing and publisher story whoring would make me read Cory Doctorow's books. :)
Just as with Music and Movies (Score:2)
Simple Solution (Score:2)
Technology sucks... (Score:2)
It seems any more innovations in communication and information publishing are about maximizing the sales channel rather than providing value to the consumer.
Now I know how poor rice farmers in India must feel as the seeds from their rice harvest can't be regrown after some clever biotech company introduced a terminator gene to protect their IP and profits.
sense? (Score:2)
Your mission Jim, (Score:2)
degradation of paper books... (Score:2)
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Re:How about using books instead? (Score:4, Informative)
Fad? I take it you haven't actually tried an ebook, but they're pretty amazing. Pretty much the only aspect that's worse than the dead tree editions is that you need electricity to use them. There's more to innovate there like improving the interface and the screens, but it's a lot more convenient for me than books are.
Plus, I'm the sort of person that likes to keep books once I've bought them, and I just don't have much room available for books I might not read for several years.
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We move around, a LOT. About 3 years ago, my poor husband begged me to consider an e-reader to save his back. I agreed, and I LOVE it.
I think it's great that I can carry a whole library of books in my purse. Everything from whatever fiction I'm currently reading to various textbooks.
Yes the technology still has some ways to evolve, but I don't imagine that the future of books will remain locked in paper for much longer.
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B. I don't need yet another gadget that requires bug fixes, internet access, batteries to be replaced, and headaches. No gadget made today is as simple as a book.
C. E-books is an entire category of products that's fixing a problem that doesn't exist.
I guess that possibly, if you live in NYC or San Francisco, and you have thousands of books, that space may be an is
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My Kindle will be usable until it breaks, i'm not sure how you think they might become "unusable," I don't need bugfixes, internet access, or batteries, and I keep the wifi turned off so I won't get any of those unnecessary things pushed down my throat.
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If you get Nook or some other ereader that supports the epub standard then you're not going to be in that sort of situation. I can replace the battery in my Nook without much trouble, and the device itself is standards compliant. Worse case I have to get a new battery from a 3rd party source and stick with DRM free books, not that big a deal.
Plus, it's just a whole lot easier to read books on an ereader than it is with a standard dead tree edition.
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...a bar of Phels-Naptha...
That's Fels-Naptha (Fels was the inventor's last name), and I thought I was the only geek who'd heard of it. That's potent stuff. It even has an MSDS [whatsinproducts.com] listing their particular flavor of naptha - "Hydrocarbons, Terpene Processing By-Products".
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Do you ever travel? Ever traveled for more than a week? Just because you can't see a use, doesn't mean there isn't a use. E-book readers are very popular and your resistance isn't going to change that. I love my Nook, when I was looking at the need to send it in for warranty repair, I even went out and bought a new one so I didn't have to live without it.
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E-books have many advantages, but -- ignoring the idiotic licensing shenigans -- they have a huge disadvantage too: they're less pleasant to read. Yes, e-ink displays are better than LCDs, but frankly they're still awful compared to simple old paper.
Maybe some future tech will fix that, but I'm not holding my breath... even when it becomes technically possible, the current market focus seems to be more on making books into little TVs than supporting reading well.
[I'm thinking mainly of books that one re
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The main advantage that it has is portability. I can take a few dozen books on holiday and fit them all in my carry-on luggage. The biggest disadvantage, for me at least, is that I can't read them in the bath. Even if I weren't worried about dropping an expensive device in the water, the h
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Will it fit inside a zip-loc freezer bag? I used to put my tape player inside one if I was planning on a long soak.
Give it time and special housings and/or ruggedized versions will probably appear.
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My Kindle DX fits the 1-gallon size bags just fine. Since I'm still waiting for my cover to arrive, I used one the other day to take the Kindle with me for lunch when I didn't want to carry the briefcase and it was raining. Perfect fit! And I could use it while still in the bag, too, though the readability suffered a bit.
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E-ink even is made from ink, so I don't frankly see the difference. Also, when was the last time you could change the size of the font on a paper book? I even upgraded recently to the Nook color, and was surprised at how good the screen is, it is just as comfortable to read as my Nook B/W was; it is even better in low light, I even keep the backlight at its lowest setting and never have an issue. You do however sacrifice the battery replacement ability of the B/W version, but the battery seems to last ab
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What? Which e-reader did you get? I have a Kindle DX and I'm quite happy with it. The screen is the best I've seen for e-readers and the battery life is phenomenal (I leave the wireless off most of the time). The selection of books isn't bad at all. There are plenty of free books (and occasional special free deals) and most others are LESS expensive than the dead-tree version. I have a metric ton of books on mine already. Many are PDFs and freebies provided by my girlfriend (she likes SciFi, too), O
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Second all your points on the Kindle with the Nook. Selection is very good, you can often find PDFs of many useful things (I have all the Linux Documentation Project books) and you can even get books from other sellers like Fictionwise.
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What? Which e-reader did you get? I have a Kindle DX and I'm quite happy with it. The screen is the best I've seen for e-readers
It's a Sony, but that's not relevant. Did you notice how you had to qualify what you said? You're quite happy with it; the screen is the best you've seen for e-readers. It's as if you're arguing that watching a program about the Carribean in high-definition is better than watching it in low definition, when I'm arguing that neither is as good as actually going there.
and the battery life is phenomenal
It's pretty good on my Sony, too. How does it compare with real books? See, as long as e-readers and e-books are trying to impersonate the de
Re:How about using books instead? (Score:4, Interesting)
No licensing? I suggest you take a good look at what libraries have to do to not be considered stores.
Also Libraries are trying to do everything they can to get people to visit them. With the internet they aren't used as much anymore.
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I would disagree on one point, many lower income people use the library specifically for the internet. I don't see libraries remaining a repository for books much longer, it is easier to go digital for many of these things, at least for those of us who have the money.
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How about just keeping actual books in libraries instead? No tech support, no licensing needed.
Right, just physical space (heated, air-conditioned, humidity-controlled, access-controlled space) and staff to store, shelve, check out, check in, reshelve, index, and repair every single print volume.
And the print books are only available during the limited hours the library is open. (This can be a serious issue for individuals with long work/commuting hours coupled to family commitments, especially in communities where library hours are very limited.)
For individuals with mobility concerns getting t