Cybercrooks Surpassed Old School Bankrobbers In '09 81
krebsonsecurity writes "Organized cyber-criminal gangs stole $25 million in the 3rd quarter alone last year, by pilfering the online bank accounts of small to midsized businesses, the FDIC reported last week. In contrast, traditional bank robbers hauled just $9.4 million in 1,184 bank robberies during that same period, according to an analysis of FBI bank crime statistics by krebsonsecurity.com. From that story: 'The federal government sure publishes a lot more information about physical bank robberies than it makes available about online stick-ups. Indeed, the FBI's bank crime stats are extraordinarily detailed. For example, they can tell you that in the 3rd quarter of last year, bank robbers were more likely to hold up their local branch between the hours of 9 a.m. and 11 a.m. on a Wednesday than at any other time or day of the week; they can tell you the number of tear gas and dye packs taken with the loot, the number of security cameras activated, the number of food stamps taken, even what percentage of suspected perpetrators had illegal drug habits at the time of the robberies. About the only thing the stats don't tell you is what brand of jeans the perpetrators were wearing and whether the getaway car had cool vanity plates. What do we get about e-crime statistics from the federal government? One guy from the FDIC giving a speech at the RSA conference."
Saw the ethief coming... (Score:5, Insightful)
why do people hack bank accounts? (Score:2, Funny)
because that's where the money is.
Re:why do people hack bank accounts? (Score:5, Funny)
Because they're too stupid to be investment bankers, or their conscience would bother them...
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
i don't disagree with you, i was just revamping the old canard about robbing banks.
http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/sutton/sutton.htm [fbi.gov]
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Good point. From what I understand, that's why there was a rash of grocery store robberies about 10 years ago. The banks had more money, but the stores had a few thousand on hand, plus no security systems to speak of.
If you want to steal, white-collar crime is the way to go. Higher ROI, lower penalties, and your time is usually served in low-security facilities or under house arrest.
Re: (Score:2)
I am a customer of two banks. One has a *maximum* password length of 8 characters for online services (actually trunks the password at 8 if you enter a longer one and gives no warning). The other bank regularily calls customers and asks for sensitive information (the same information that can be used to reset the online password). They call from, and request call-backs to phone numbers that are *not* the number on the bank card.
I have a feeling Canadian Banks have so much insurance that they disregard IT se
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
All businesses (except banks) will tell you that they lose more thru employee theft than outsider theft. But banks do not want you to know how bad it is, so they keep it quiet. I dated a girl who was a bank teller. She told me that she felt she deserved nice clothes, so she would keep some of the deposits. After $2,000 or so, the bank would catch her and let her go (not get their money back). No report to the police, nothing. Since her only job skill was bank teller, she would just get a job at a different
Re: (Score:2)
How long until... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How long until... (Score:5, Funny)
Already there. I don't tell people about what I do for two reasons:
1: they want me to fix their computer.
2: they ask me if I can hack into government computers to prove UFO's exist.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I feel sorry for you. I usually just get stuck with the first one.
Re: (Score:2)
If you get asks to fix a computer just say, "Sorry I'm too busy hacking government computers to prove UFOs exist."
And when they ask about the proof simply say, "I'm gonna blow this thing wide open. At this point I can risk information in others hands. It puts us both at risk.. I've already said too much. I gotta run."
Re: (Score:2)
Already there. I don't tell people about what I do for two reasons:
1: they want me to fix their computer.
This is why every IT/Comp Sci major needs to take a marketing class. By time you're done, you'll know that the correct answer will sound like this: "It'll cost you $500" (slightly smaller amounts are acceptable if it is an extremely attractive classmate). This way, you'll have either one of two possible outcomes: Either they'll never ask again, or you'll have robbed them legitimately, right through the front door!
Re: (Score:2)
I provide free support to my immediate family. For example, I recovered the data from my Dad's fux0r3d computer and put it on his new Mac. (You've got to love Linux's mounting capabilities, don't you?) I've been fixing, troubleshooting, and programming computers since I was eight. (My daughter's started at 6)
Would I charge him? WTF? This is the guy who's given me more time, energy, and free help than anyone else on the planet. Hell, he even got me my first computer! I've gone to his house to install insulat
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
or *IS* he?
Hostages.. (Score:3, Insightful)
I wonder how many hostages have been injured/shot in a cyber stickup gone bad?
Perhaps that might explain their focusing more on physical bank robberies? I mean cmon.. the banks have insurance to cover the actual money lost, don't they?
Re:Hostages.. (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I believe that the point the the OP is making is that more people die in physical bank robberies than in online robberies. Hence the extra focus of the FBI on stopping physical robberies over online robberies.
Re: (Score:2)
That's how it should be too. When you're dead you're dead and theres no going back. I dislike how lightly people sometimes take someone else dying, especially by some idiot who felt like robbing a store or bank and just had to shoot someone.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
and if you outlawed password crackers and port scanners online robberies wouldn't happen.
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
Outlaw guns and this will happen more often. Arm every citizen and I doubt anyone will be dumb enough to use one in anger.
You seriously underestimate the how angry, greedy, desperate, etc... an otherwise fairly intelligent human being can get! And by "you" I mean both the person I'm replying to and the one that modded them "Informative". It isn't exactly unheard of for people to be violent without thinking of the consequences at all, especially when experiencing strong emotions like anger.
Regardless of if everyone packing heat actually reduces the threat of gun violence compared to our current situation, it can never totally
Re: (Score:2)
Why is it that everyone who says something like this to me just *has* to have a conceal-carry permit and prays for the day he can whip out his gun and blow someone away?
Re:Hostages.. (Score:4, Insightful)
The affected parties are different between the two types of crimes;
Robbing a bank is the equivalent of stealing from the FDIC.
Looting an account is the equivalent of emptying a cash register or wallet.
The "little guy" takes the hit in the latter case, whereas in the former, the direct hit gets absorbed by a larger entity.
Just try to get your money back from PayPal, or a phishing attack, or cloned debit card once to find out how "stuck" you are as the little guy.
Re: (Score:2)
> The "little guy" takes the hit in the latter case,
Not necessarily, banks often reimburse customers because they don't want people to loose confidence in e-banking since they save a lot of money that way.
It costs them less to reimburse defrauded customers than it would cost them if everybody went physically to the bank.
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
If he wasn't robbing banks, perhaps "Slippery Jim" deGriz could have gone around breaking windows [freedomkeys.com] with the same justification.
Re: (Score:2)
No, my point was that the FBI gets involved because people get killed in bank robberies.. Stealing from a small business, over the internet, doesn't involve hostage negotiators, swat teams, high speed chases, etc.
I don't think the FBI cares as much about the financial part of it, as they are the collateral damage.
Re: (Score:2)
Hahahah, that was very funny. The FBI wants to catch killers because it's good for press, which is good for the budget. But the financial crimes aspect is what they're really after... that's
Re: (Score:1)
Influence the power brokers? Why? For funding? (rofl) A pat on the back? (eh, push at best) Turf war? No, theres plenty of 'turf' for the FBI/NSA/whatever other org you're thinking of to go around.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The creation of the DHS was supposed to smooth those out, but has been very ineffective in doing so.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The point being that banks can protect themselves, but what can they do to protect their customers if those customers choose bad passwords?
They could enforce proper passwords ("must contain at least 3 numbers, 2 special signs, 2 uppercase characters, must be at least 8 characters long...), for example, like quite a few banks I know do.
Re: (Score:2)
You do understand that insurance isn't a magical wealth creation machine, right? The banks' insurance premiums have to cover these losses plus the overhead of the insurance company itself.
Huh (Score:5, Interesting)
When I looked at the numbers, all I could think of was "that wouldn't even come up to a good bonus at Goldman Sachs".
Which ones are the bank robbers again?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The smart ones _legally_ transfer money from the stupid to the smart (e.g. themselves).
In case people haven't noticed, inflation/printing/creating money is also another way of transferring money. Value is being transferred from the holders of the money, to the entities printing/creating the money. It's like a tax.
Re: (Score:2)
Good point.
If you took that $25 million and added it to TARP, it wouldn't even show up as a percentage of the $514 billion disbursed so far. "Illegal" cybertheft would account for 0.005% of overall cybertheft.
How is it a big deal that cybercrime netted $25 million nationwide?
Tell General Motors to send back some pocket change from the $50 billion they are currently holding. At 9% APR, the interest on the money for about two days would cover it.
Heck, if we charged GM's "0.9% APR" on the TARP money for just
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"Just let them fail" is what the US did in the 1930s. Most economists since then have agreed that it was a Very Bad Idea. It would have been an even worse idea now, as the banking system is even more tied together. Insurance plans are underwritten by companies that have investments in funds that invest in companies that hold stock in weak banks.
The first phase of operations was the correct one: support the financial system long enough to get past the major crisis. The second phase that is needed is unli
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, why are we worrying so much about bank robbers. They're small potatoes. As long as they don't kill or hurt anyone how much $$$ can they take? Laughable amounts for the jail time and risk.
In contrast:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/business/24trading.html [nytimes.com]
Quotes:
Multiply such trades across thousands of stocks a day, and the profits are substantial. High-frequency traders generated about $21 billion in profits last year, the Tabb Group, a research firm, estimates.
"But we're moving toward a two-tiered m
Re:Huh (Score:5, Informative)
This was actually predicted some time ago, in a Cyberpunk 2020 supplement. I forget which one exactly, I think it was 'Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads!'
"Back in the late twentieth century, the average short term loan's length was 30 days. In 2060, the average term is 30 seconds. What can you do in 30 seconds? If you hop on a fast bike, you might make it part of the way down the street. But I can take that thirty-second loan and make enough money to buy a South Sea island, complete with mansion and Playboy bunnies to serve my every whim through a little miracle called currency arbitrage."
Quote is approximate.
Re: (Score:2)
LUYPS was one of the best books ever written for the GM/DM/referee. It helped me dramatically improve my games.
It's been years since I ran a game. Now I want to play Cyberpunk. :\
Re: (Score:2)
OK it's comedy, but so is the real world situation in a way (except more tragic).
I guess it depends on whether you found Macbeth hilarious or not.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
When I looked at the numbers, all I could think of was "that wouldn't even come up to a good bonus at Goldman Sachs".
Which ones are the bank robbers again?
Goldman Sachs aren't robbing banks, they're using banks to rob us.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Woodie Guthrie said it best:
"Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen."
Re: (Score:2)
The way our top tier of executives is overcompensated is obscene, unfair, and discourages real capitalism. However, it's not theft. It's the result of some fundamental flaws in the way the system operates. If you really give a shit about it, stop attacking the people who benefit from the system and start working to change it.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
FBI underestimates white-collar crime (Score:4, Insightful)
My guess is that the government doesn't publish the statistics because
No, it's an institutional bias at the FBI that dates back to J. Edgar Hoover. The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports [fbi.gov] hugely underestimate white collar crime. Violent crime is tallied based on police reports, regardless of whether anyone is arrested. White collar crime is tallied based on arrests. Scams with large numbers of victims who didn't lose much each don't get tallied at all.
In dollar volume, white collar fraud dwarfs all other categories. Losses from the Madoff scam, or the Enron scam, were each greater than an entire century or so of physical bank robberies.
Robbery is a dying industry, anyway. Breaking into houses is almost obsolete. What's worth stealing? Nobody has silver any more. Used consumer electronics has zero to negative value. Any TV worth stealing is too big to lift. Used furniture is nearly worthless. Few people keep much cash around. Auto theft is at a 20-year low - between OnStar and LoJack, stealing cars as a career doesn't work for long.
Seems low, doesn't it? (Score:3, Insightful)
*Disclamer: that's internet math, some of the logic could have been stolen/pilfered.
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
Of Course (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1, Informative)
"...downfalls..."
I don't know what it is, but lots of people are misusing the hell out of this word lately. I believe you were looking for "downsides" instead. Downfalls are events, whereas downsides are negative properties. Think of Icarus: His downfall was when he fell down due to the downside of his wings being vulnerable to the heat of the sun.
Re: (Score:2)
Not even a blip. (Score:5, Insightful)
$25 million, roughly 100 million all year. Are you kidding? The financial industry extorted hundreds of billions of dollars from the tax payer in 2009. If this is the cybercrime menace we're supposed to be afraid of, I'm not. I'm much more worried about legalized theft by men in suits.
Re: (Score:2)
I thought organized crime... (Score:3, Informative)
I thought that organized crime had moved to cyber-robbing a long time ago so is this really news ? I am just wondering...
The 9.4 millions robbed in a conventional way are probably due to poor, "un-organized" people ;-))
When you say cybercrooks, do you include (Score:3, Insightful)
When you say cybercrooks, do you include financial institutions that
1. Practice coputer-managed microtrading using the advantage of their high-availability data streams, proprietary software and huge capital (other people's money) to squeeze profit from the market without contributing anything positive to anybody or anything?
2. Create financial instruments and products with the only purpose to use legal loopholes for profit?
3. Use usury to create perpetual profit from everyone who borrows other perople's money from them, practically causing enslavement?
Just wondering.
Re: (Score:1)
Makes sense to me (Score:2)
The bankers didn't kill anyone? (Score:2)
There were a couple of posts along the lines of "sure Goldman-Sachs etc. robbed us but at least they didn't kill anyone".Follow this line of reasoning:
The banksters destroyed the global economy.
Millions that were getting by were thrown into poverty.
Millions that were in poverty were thrown into starvation.
Since the unemployment rate in the developed nations increased, gov't and private relief donations dropped.
This reduced the amount of emergency relief available, causing more to die.
Conclusion: the bankste
Small fry (Score:3, Insightful)
The real crooks extorted $24 trillion [washingtontimes.com] from a sovereign nation by threatening elected officials with martial law.
Re: (Score:2)
Whoa, this bot has really lost the plot!
Could just be another fine product of the US educationb system though I suppose!