Craig Mundie Wants "Internet Driver's Licenses" 427
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "Craig Mundie, Microsoft's Chief Research and Strategy Officer, called for the creation of an 'Internet Driver's License' at the World Economic Forum in Davos, saying, 'If you want to drive a car you have to have a license to say that you are capable of driving a car, the car has to pass a test to say it is fit to drive and you have to have insurance.' Of course, there are quite a few problems with this. For starters, internet use cannot yet cause death or dismemberment like car accidents can; and this would get rid of most of the good of internet anonymity while retaining all of the bad parts, especially in terms of expanding the market for stolen identities. Even though telephone networks have long been used by scammers and spammers/telemarketers, we've never needed a 'Telephone Driver's License.'"
If you drunk e-mail... (Score:5, Funny)
will they take away your license?
Re:If you drunk e-mail... (Score:5, Funny)
goldy (over the limit)
I Don't See That Anyone Has Yet "Godwinned" (Score:5, Funny)
On a thread that so richly deserves it. Here. Without undue prejudice:
HITLER!
HITLER!
HITLER!
HITLER!
HITLER!
HITLER!
HITLER!
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You certainly godwon that one.
Re:I Don't See That Anyone Has Yet "Godwinned" (Score:5, Funny)
How did you get that past the filter??
The Führer can get past any filter...
Re:If you drunk e-mail... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is so Microsoft. Their response to any problem is to want more control. (A bit like most governments, actually)
Interestingly, this is the exact opposite of Open Source, or perhaps Wikipedia.
They are absolutely committed to the cathedral, with no thought of the bazaar.
And, for a while, it works.
Re:If you drunk e-mail... (Score:5, Insightful)
or perhaps Wikipedia.
If you read /. often, you'd know Wikipedia is far less free than it used to be. We even have some trolls who post complaints about Wikipedia editors here. They are people who have gotten fed up with the current "I will control whatever happens on my pages" territorial mindset of some of the editors there who have all day to police their "domains".
This sort of thing drives away and discourages many people from contributing.
Re:If you drunk e-mail... (Score:4, Funny)
I've seen some of my comments on /. removed and show up in somebody else's name a few hours later, I won't bother thinking very hard under circumstances like that.
Surely the other guy's name was Anonymous Coward?
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Re:If you drunk e-mail... (Score:4, Insightful)
Interestingly, this is the exact opposite of Open Source, or perhaps Wikipedia.
Have you BEEN to wikipedia lately?
The moderators there LOVE control.
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tl;dr
Re:If you drunk e-mail... (Score:4, Insightful)
And taking a joke too far will carry the death penalty!
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will they take away your license?
No, but if you copyright infringe three times they will...
Just what I always wanted (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Just what I always wanted (Score:5, Funny)
In the past, the Internet consisted, mostly, of smart people in front of dumb terminals.
Now, the converse situation dominates.
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Which brings up the question, if the test will include famous lolcat quotes, knowledge about goatse/tubgirl/etc, memes, 4chan, YouTube “stars”, etc... and most importantly... will be 99.9% questions about porn topics. ^^
Ok, I did not expect some control freak lunatic like Craig Mundie to come up with something realistic...
Then again, nobody cares about him anyway. Ever. Especially from now on.
Re: Knowledge about etc... (Score:5, Funny)
Don't feed the troll of the article.
He's Just Another Manic Mundie.
Slashdot is getting out of hand (Score:3, Insightful)
Where does the stupidity end?
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Re:Slashdot is getting out of hand (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Slashdot is getting out of hand (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, the final boss is easy. The second to last boss, Anonymous, is a bitch and a half to beat, but all it takes to kill the kitten is masturbating.
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You have to watch out for their exploding van. You can defeat them easily with A Dog and some Curtains.
Re:Slashdot is getting out of hand (Score:4, Funny)
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Usually at Twitter.
Proof (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Proof (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Proof (Score:4, Insightful)
we need a law? (Score:5, Insightful)
since when do laws stop the bad guys?
Re:we need a law? (Score:5, Insightful)
More importantly, this measure is not targeted at "bad guys". When some idiot such as this Craig Mundie speaks about this concept of the "internet driver's license", what he is campaigning for is the ability to not only identify everyone who uses the internet but also the convenience of having any state's repressive power to ban anyone from the internet who disrespected any arbitrary rule these fools are trying to impose on the rest of the world. And the thing is, we aren't talking about criminal acts, as these are already punished by imprisonment. This sort of measure is intended to open the door for the ability to inflict arbitrary punishment on those who do not follow rules set forth by righteous idiots who believe they know better than the stupid masses.
But hey, let's call it "driver's license", as it's a very convenient term to associate with this oppressive measure as it's widely regarded by society as banal government grant. This sort of totalitarian measure desperately needs a cuddly face to be able to fly. Let's not mention what it really is: a corporate-tailored totalitarian attack on individual freedom intended to punish non-criminal acts which are frowned upon corporate execs such as mr Craig Mundie.
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You know, this isn't really a response to you, but while reading your post it occurred to me that any company *can* make a network that sits on top of the internet, to which all those rules apply. If Microsoft wants to create a Microsoft network of some kind, they can implement any restriction they want ... maybe the licensed, approved-user-only model will be compelling. With the XBox, MS already controls a platform pretty well, and ... well, to tell the truth, XBoxLive or whatever the network is that you
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LoB
From the email cited (Score:5, Insightful)
The road to ruin was paved with good intentions. However, that includes ludicrous ideas.
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More to the point, who exactly believes that the ability to freely express our own ideas how we see fit and without any danger of being attacked and punished by it is somehow bad or even dangerous to anyone? Who exactly is so afraid of free communication of ideas and the freedom to share information in order to be so desperate to beg any country's government to quench their citizen's ability to do that sort of thing? To put it in other words, who is so desperately afraid of not only their own countrymen b
Solution in search of a problem (Score:3, Interesting)
Considering that enforcing a license requirement just here in the US would be nigh on impossible without rethinking everything and that the odds of doing anything of the sort worldwide is less than zero I'm left wondering just what problem this idea is intended to solve?
Hint, it ain't any problem we users have and it ain't a problem the network operators are having. And since the practice of allowing Microsoft products to connect to the Internet is the bulk of the spam/zombie/malware problem I guess we would license every host as well as user. Any any license scheme that permitted Microsoft crap to operate would be considered toothless and any that banned them would get called 'draconian.' No win scenario. The only winning move is not to play.
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Re:Actually, I think they have a point (Score:5, Insightful)
Suddenly P2P programs can't get accredited anywhere, regardless of their legitimate use because they 'don't meet standards' or other such vague explanation, and exorbitant fees are charged for processing applications that cut the smaller players out of the market.
I would oppose any measure that seeks to control access to the internet. I'll gladly tolerate spam and phishers if it means I can do what I goddamned well please with the internet I pay for.
System administrator Driver's License (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, wait...
Great segue (Score:5, Insightful)
Cui Bono? (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, it would be completely coincidental that Microsoft would offer training, software and certification to help get your Internet driver's license, right?
1984 is not a manual (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:1984 is not a manual (Score:5, Insightful)
I swear there's a certain class of people that don't understand that concept or maybe they do and they just really hope they get to be the masters pet.
I think most of them never reflect enough to be more than vaguely aware of it, they just think in terms of controlling their environment in a way that benefits themselves. A few of the brighter ones do have an idea of where its going, but they don't care.
I think most of the rest of us aren't smart or powerful enough to manipulate the system very much that way, but in a sense we have it coming, because we do not sufficiently value freedom. And I don't just mean freedom from oppressive governments and big business, but also freedom from lots of other things ranging from debt to chronic dependence on prescription drugs.
And yes, almost everyone wants to be the masters pet. You can cut the head off of practically any abusive power structure and it will grow back, because nearly everyone's trying to climb one rung higher on the backs of those beneath them.
On the up side, that's only half the dynamic. Some things are getting worse, but some things are getting better also.
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If you have enough money you can pretty much do what you want. Money fuels politics.
The simplest answer is usually the correct one.
major loss for privacy, dissent (Score:4, Interesting)
I know that some view ACs and their ilk as idiots clogging up discourse, but for a flip side of the coin how about the efforts to 'Out' Prop 8 contributors in Calif so they can be harrassed by gay activists?
-Not that I supported prop 8, but I do mod ACs up if they have something useful/interesting to say.
On the other hand, I don't disagree that there should perhaps be some required qualifications for hosting/administering websites, dealing with credit card transactions, userdbs, etc, but that is very different than (what I think) is being proposed.
I'm just sayin'
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credit card transactions
There are. PCI Compliance. http://www.pcicomplianceguide.org/pcifaqs.php [pcicomplianceguide.org]
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Translation (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, Windows doesn't suck - The users do.
The drivers license analogy is being used to shift some of the blame from the OS to its users.
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In other words, Windows doesn't suck - The users do. The drivers license analogy is being used to shift some of the blame from the OS to its users.
"If the steering wheel stops responding at 70mph, simply turn the engine off and back on!"
Re:Translation (Score:5, Funny)
In other words, Windows doesn't suck - The users do.
The drivers license analogy is being used to shift some of the blame from the OS to its users.
"If the steering wheel stops responding at 70mph, simply turn the engine off and back on!"
You work for Toyota?
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In other words, Windows doesn't suck - The users do. The drivers license analogy is being used to shift some of the blame from the OS to its users.
"If the steering wheel stops responding at 70mph, simply turn the engine off and back on!"
But first you have to close all windows.
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Microsoft Products - Unsafe at anyspeed
Schneier already covered this recently (Score:5, Interesting)
Bruce Schneier had a pretty good takedown [schneier.com] of this kind of argument just the other day.
Ham radio (Score:5, Interesting)
So this is like a ham license for landlines which sort of *act* like public airwaves. It's actually not SUCH a bad idea -- it sure keeps the S/N ratio up in the ham bands. Even if the test is virtually unfailable, the overall sense of earned-privilege vs. god-given-right seems to add a few percent to the general level of maturity you get. It'll never happen though!
I agree (Score:3, Insightful)
What the hell is this bonehead talking about? They have a 90% market share. Just make up a required course that people must take to buy your software and be done with it. Or make it so that IE doesn't work unless you have used a smart card that reads your license.
Chief Research and Strategy Officer...?! (Score:2, Interesting)
It's been proposed before, and it still won't work (Score:5, Interesting)
1. It would probably be illegal for the US government to require "drivers licenses" for general Internet use. The Internet is primarily a medium for the dissemination of speech, and the US government is prohibited from demanding that people obtain permission before speaking [wikipedia.org].
2. Even if done privately, requiring people to identify themselves for any and all uses of the internet is likely a bad idea [schneier.com].
No license for having children (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No license for having children (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems like there are a lot of more important ones that should get priority.
Do you plan to put people in jail for having children or take their children from them?
Maybe freedom means some people fail.
Re:No license for having children (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe freedom means some people fail.
While I sense this post is primarily founded in snarky sarcasm, I have to point out how profoundly insightful that phrase is.
Freedom means some people fail.
Alas, that is what is lost on so many....
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And justice means that you help them recover from that failure and maybe do better next time, not leave them swinging in the wind.
Only terrible because of complications (Score:2, Interesting)
I've seen many people on Slashdot suggest such a thing. Microsoft may be ridiculous, but it's likely they didn't come up with the idea.
In any case, the idea itself isn't terrible - it's only consequences of this that make it a bad idea (loss of anonymity, censorship, etc). The concept itself isn't a bad one. Loads of people aren't competent enough to not ruin it for everyone else.
If I were inclined to suggest something like this, it would be an ISP level thing. The ISP by default would allow you on to a NAT
Don't become South Korea (Score:3, Interesting)
Stupid suggestion =/= serious threat (Score:4, Insightful)
The article linked in the article posted here provides some context [rawstory.com]. He seemed to have been talking about this as a way of preventing cyber attacks, you'd have your license revoked if your computer was compromised and could be used in an attack. MS seems to have been trying to cover their asses: "It's not our fault, if we would just put this intrusive system in place, which has no chance of working, but more importantly would never be funded and never built, then the problem will be solved." The next time a problem with MS products creates a serious problem, they'll say "We told you so! If you had just put up a billion dollars to make the drivers license system, it might not have completely failed, and this could have been avoided! Your fault!"
Why do you have a steering wheel in your pants? (Score:3, Funny)
we've never needed a 'Telephone Driver's License
Probably because you don't drive a telephone.
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In all countries you need a TV license to operate a TV Transmitter. I think what you are referring to is that some country make you have a license for a TV receiver.
Re:Why do you have a steering wheel in your pants? (Score:5, Informative)
[1] [bbc.co.uk] [2] [wikipedia.org]
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But he's saying it's the internet that needs a license, not computers. So having computers that just did online things would not solve his perceived problem, but worsen it. To solve his problem, you'd need computers that refuse to connect to the web unless you had a license.
Basically, I think his comments reflect Microsoft's lingering fear of the internet - because Microsoft controls the desktop, and the web is a threat to that control.
Doh (Score:2)
Simply a dumb idea. NeXT.
Licences for OS (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps the licences should be handed out to Operating Systems based on compliance with web standards... I wonder if MS Windows would be given one?
I for one (Score:2)
OK, I see some value in here (Score:5, Funny)
I'm NO fan of Microsoft (which I hold responsible for a lot of the malware problems on the 'Net), nor am I a big fan of PKI (I think the implementations are way to fragile), but I think there might be a worthy idea in here.
Drivers Licenses have two uses:
1. Certification of driving skills
2. A nationally recognized identity
Consider this for use #2...
So what if the government issued an "Internet ID Card", with PKI Certs, etc, that would be used to secure email, transactions, etc? This is by no means a panacea, but as a factor in 2-factor ID, it might well cut down on some forms of malware.
Yes, there -are- civil liberty implications. But we always have the tension between known identity and guaranteed privacy.
So as a form of tougher ID on the Internet, I think this deserves to be taken seriously, and the plusses and minuses (as established here...) should be debated.
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The problem is that it *will* be abused, as in you are well and truly fucked. Even if it just happens to *you* that is way too many people. Best come up with solutions that have no civil liberties "compromises."
Let's make a deal... (Score:3, Interesting)
If users are like drivers, then OS providers are like car manufacturers.
So let's require drivers licenses, if and only if Microsoft:
After all, dangers cars are just as serious as dangerous drivers, right?
This from the company who made IE (Score:2, Insightful)
Excuse me, why is anyone listening to what MS has to say about Internet security, again?
SOMEBODY CALL THE INTERNET POLICE (Score:4, Funny)
I just had a packet collision!
Marketing (Score:2, Insightful)
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Can they be more subtle? (Score:2, Funny)
Just another attempt by to regulate and/or control the internet, I can just bet that he has a shiny Powerpoint presentation all prepped about how suited MS would be to manage the corporate planning and data management.
About as subtle as Vlad and the Count soliciting for charitable donations :
"to de Blood bank... I mean Red Cross, yes. No, you don't hawe to come in, ve vill be ower.. , Ve Vill send an agent by right avay! Oh yes it is wery conwenient for you, Ve know exactly vhere you are, I mean, ve hawe y
Questions (Score:3, Interesting)
Those are only the few questions I could come up with in ten minutes time. There are certainly many more beyond these. I would like to hear Mr. Mundie's answers to these questions along with the complete plan for putting this into place. I'll wait.
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I had very similar thoughts...that, and the fact that the RIAA/MPAA would just *LOVE* a system that matches identities with IP addresses and could derivatively add "unlicensed data transmission", "allowing an unlicensed minor to go online", "unreasonable network congestion", and any number of other crimes to file sharing. Oh...and bucks to beans that they would add questions like "downloading music and movies is: A.) a good idea, but only if you pay for it B.) a guaranteed way to get viruses, C.)piracy (exc
What happened to the Libertarians? (Score:2)
Before trying to manage the whole Internet (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe he should be back in Redmond trying to fix his company's joke of an R&D process (ZUNE!!!) rather than pontificate at Davos to VIPs who actually might mistake him for somebody with a clue about technology.
Windows not road ready (Score:2, Insightful)
There's no way Windows would pass any kind of Internet-readiness test, it gets viruses and lacks the basic network security features of Unix systems. So it is weird to hear this guy say our Internet "cars" need certification.
Do you think you need to take a test to use an iPad? The reason so many XP are out there is the massive user training to go to a newer Windows nets no productivity benefit, yet people trade in their old phones for iPhone and without any training the Web browser and a couple of key apps
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lacks the basic network security features of Unix systems.
Wait, what? I know in the past windows security was a joke, but what basic network security features does it lack? In Windows 7 you don't run as administrator by default, and it comes with a firewall. Permission levels have been there for a long time. What security features are you talking about?
It's only a *tad* bit flawed... (Score:3, Interesting)
Okay, I kid; this idea really sucks. I'm sure others here have picked up on this, but from just pondering it for thirty seconds:
I'm sure these questions can get addressed with enough thought, but I really hope this doesn't grow beyond that point.
Computer Driver Test (Score:2)
Funny (Score:4, Insightful)
People die driving;they don't die on the internets (Score:3, Interesting)
I feel MORE secure when people are required to learn rules before they drive. I feel LESS secure when the government decides who can and can't communicate.
I can understand a license to drive, but a license to communicate is stupid...no...it's scary.
Copyright protection (Score:5, Insightful)
whom to regulate (Score:3, Interesting)
How about we regulate the banks to provide real two-factor authentication for any online financial transaction? How about we set a standard for smart-cards (hell, add the capability to dirvers' licenses) and require that PCs come with smart-card readers?
If we just had these standards in place, they would pay for themselves extremely quickly.
Let's tell it like it really is (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft doesn't want you to have to have a license to use the internet. Microsoft wants you to have to pay them for a license to use the internet.
An extension to the idea (Score:4, Insightful)
I think it would be even better if we mandate a security licence for designing, implementing and deploying operating systems/web browsers/etc that access the network.
For example, if you tried that for a couple of decades and could not get it right, then maybe your licence should be revoked and reinstated only after proving you code correct and only in a limited market first. (For example, desktops only, no laptops, no wireless etc.)
I really hope this will get traction!
Criag Mundie wants to control you. (Score:5, Informative)
There you go.
Fuck you Criag Mundie. Fuck you in your tiny dick hole, you elitist, ruling class, piece of shit. Shall we require government licenses to use our toasters and our televisions so that we will never burn our toast, and will be capable of understanding that not all TV, including the news is real, or good for us?
What the fuck Criag. Die in a fire.
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Welcome to the "United" Kingdom [tvlicensing.co.uk]. (airquotes intentional)
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That's a good point. To bring in a car analogy, there are laws and standards regarding the vehicles permitted on the road. Would a Microsoft bigwig be championing this idea if it meant an NHTSA would be regulating their ass?
Sounds great actually. Coupled with the Justice Department discouraging monopoly abuse, we'd have the another regulator preventing MS from putting a house of knives on the road.
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Such bullshit will only 'never happen' so long as there are intelligent people sufficiently informed and mobilised to oppose it.
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I saw Craig speak at the Usenix Symposium on Internet Security in San Antonio back in 1998. I completely forget to this day what his speech was about but I know enough to remember that it doesn't matter. The speech was full of inane misdirected statements, unproven research and illogical conclusions. After speaking a while I think I, and a lot of other people stopped listening to him and managed to allow themselves to be distracted by other things. But one thing I do recall that was amusing to see was T