After Berlusconi Attack, Italy Considers Web Censorship 160
An anonymous reader writes "The Italian government has proposed introducing new restrictions on the Internet after a Facebook fan page for the man who allegedly attacked Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi on Sunday drew almost 100,000 users in under 48 hours. However, the planned clampdown on Internet hate speech sparked a heated debate over censorship and freedom of expression, leading Interior Minister Roberto Maroni to execute a partial U-turn."
Control (Score:5, Insightful)
Must be very hard for Mr Berlusconi that there is media he doesn't control.
For anyone not familiar with Italy he already owns all the major tv stations and newspapers.
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Re:Control (Score:4, Informative)
Libero (his ex-wife controls it but de-facto he is)
Oggi
Chi
Re:Control (Score:4, Informative)
Anyway the majority of information is broadcast through TV which he controls (50% as prime minister) and owns (50% his own TV stations).
You sir, don't know what you're talking about.
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Libero is owned by his brother Paolo
Il Foglio is owned by his ex-wife
and he owns (through his publishing company) ona of the biggest quotes of Il Corriere (the most famous italian newspaper)...
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Let's try to recap.
Paolo Berlusconi is the owner of Il giornale through a couple of companies. Does he owns also Libero? I couldn't research who's in the board of Editoriale Libero (the controlling company) but for sure it's a newspaper with positions quite close to Berlusconi.
Mrs Lario (wife of Berlusconi but about to be ex-wife) owns 38% of Il Foglio. I missed that, thanks.
But how about this supposed 35% share of Il Corriere? Il Corriere is owned by RCS Mediagroup and its shareholders are listed on Conso [consob.it]
Re:Control (Score:4, Informative)
He owns Il Giornale, via his brother Paolo. Il Foglio, it is owned by his recently divorcing wife. Mondadori, the biggest italian publisher, with a myriad of magazines, is in the hands of his daughter Marina. About the latter, he has just been sentenced guilty of taking over Mondadori by means of corruption back in 1990 and will have to pay 750 megaeuros. Mediaset is controlled by Piersilvio, his son, and owns 3 private national channels out of 7 plus a bunch of digital tv channels. Other than these, are the three national tv channels of RAI (state television) which is mostly controlled by the government.
If this is not enough, well... unfortunely he has way much more power than this...
by the way ./ers think of the aggression itself? I mean... is it possible to have two broken teeth, broken nose, and a white shirt with no red stain?
what do
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Is that really how they count euros? If not, it is too precious by half, and I implore you to stop it right now.
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Even if it's not the popular way to count currencies, it's certainly not a bad idea. How much is 1 billion again?
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Very nearly enough for an intimate working lunch for 2 in Brussels, at least as far as expense claims go.
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Is it possible to have two broken teeth, broken nose, and a white shirt with no red stain?
It depends on how fast someone got in with something to mop up the blood. I guess that was pretty quick (the video of the events was pretty confused...) We also don't know the extent to which his teeth were damaged; "broken" might be a mistransation of (the Italian word for) "chipped" or "cracked".
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I watched an analysis of the last few moments leading to the aggression.
It's surprising how the whole security team spectacularly failed at protecting him.
The aggressor had several seconds to actually take aim from a few feet away.
This is a little beyond incompetent. I'm not sure how far beyond...
The only certainty is that this event did wonders for his falling popularity.
Here in Italy everybody is cheering for him at the moment.
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he already took many lessons from him.
I only wish he also learned to duck, 'cause now he's more popular then ever.
Re:Control (Score:5, Interesting)
On my to-watch-list, there's a recent-ish documentary about Berlusconis Italy, titled "Videocracy". http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1500516/ [imdb.com]
http://www.atmo.se/film-and-tv/videocracy/ [www.atmo.se] :
Coming soon to a festival (or internet) near you!
Re:Control (Score:4, Insightful)
As far as controlling his image, his image didn't look so hot after he took a nice beating.
About 90 percent of the world was heartened to see that at least one single human was able to express to his political leader what he felt in a direct and honest manner, and in a way that the politician could not ignore.
The image of Berlusconi's well-fed and dissolute face all battered and bloody was a message to the world: There is yet hope.
Salute!
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There is no way to change politics. We will always be outgunned by rich corporations. The best we can hope for is the occasional satisfaction of seeing something painful befall a corrupt politician.
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While it was great to see Berlusconi take one in the face, it's even funnier when the politicians fight back [youtube.com].
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Hate crimes are meh but that doesn't mean the fact that an attack motivated purely by the color of one's skin or choice of religion shouldn't be taken in account when it comes to sentencing.
That said, I can understand the feeling of having all options exhausted and all you have left is your fists (or a hammer [dslreports.com] or a bulldozer armored with concrete [youtube.com]).
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As we have learned in the past two weeks, he is no less a corporatist than was George W. Bush or Bill Clinton.
I made excuses for Barack Obama for more than a year, pinning my hopes on someone who has turned out to be an empty facade, willing to throw Americans under the bus in order to curry favor with powerful corporations.
After his betrayal on health care reform, now I want to see the goddamn birth certificate, too.
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Oh don't be ridiculous. Hatred isn't the preserve of either of the fictional factions popularly called Left and Right. Anyone with a brain doesn't consider themselves "right" or "left", because they know that you can't divide policy into two arbitrary blocs and say one is good and the other bad. The brainwashing that has gone on in the USA is staggering. I think some people would actually have anurisms when confronted with someone like myself (anti-aborti
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Hey , it seems we have a lot in common ( i share all your points ).
What's your opinion on death sentencing ? Personally , i'm against it .
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As you've asked, I am against the death penalty. I don't see revenge as a supportable reason for punishing people. Supportable punishments for harming others are restitution, protection of society and (as a preferable consequence of these two) discouragement to others to do the same. The reason most commonly put forward for capital punishment is to discourage people from committing the capital crime due to fear of this "ultimate punishment". It demonstrably fails in this regard. Anyone who doesn't regard y
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You turned out to be right about Obama.
I agree with your other stances, except abortion. That's between a woman and her doctor. But I'm also a pro-gun, anti-Iraq War, anti-Bush socialist.
And as of now, anti-Obama, too.
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If someone didn't take precautions and wants to pick up the morning after pill early on, then I wont condemn them. If someone has a medical reason not to have a child or it was forced on them, then I can sympathise even though its sad. But by the time you get to late-term abortions, that's a living, recognizable child. It may well bend your life in a different
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Actually, as a dedicated leftist, at the moment I don't think I'd mind all that much.
So, no contradiction here.
And I guess it takes a really dedicated righty to try to defend a corrupt sleazebag like Berlusconi.
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Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Just goes to show, politicians everywhere dont like a medium that allows the little guy to have a voice.
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You know paisan, I felt the same way after I saw that Jersey Shore TV show.
Disgrazia!
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If you disagree with the current politician's policies, run on your own platform. Simple as that. If the population agrees with you, change occurs and problem solved. If you're actively censored, you can retaliate with force, and you should ultimately be supported by the courts if your efforts fail. Thoreau's Civil Disobedience and all that. Bitching about being put down by the man is worthless. i.e. Put Up or Shut Up :)
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If you disagree with the current politician's policies, and you are a millionaire, run on your own platform. Simple as that. If the population agrees with you, change occurs and problem solved.
I tend to dislike FIFY posts, but this seemed inevitable...
If you're actively censored, you can retaliate with force, and you should (but won't) ultimately be supported by the courts if your efforts fail. Thoreau's Civil Disobedience and all that. Bitching about being put down by the man is worthless. i.e. Put Up or Shut Up :)
Open insurrection would only cause accusations of terrorism from the ruling cadre and you will end up killed by the forces of the goverment.
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They never learn (Score:2, Insightful)
OR, the Italian government could use this as an opportunity to gauge the public disapproval for their senior politicians.
If this were a nobody that was attacked (Score:5, Informative)
The government would treat it just like any other case, even with such a facebook group.
It never ceases to amaze me how the government uses high-profile cases to grab at power and suppress the people while having their whole-hearted support of such measures. The patriot act comes to mind. (Which, btw, did nothing to stop Nidal Hasan from killing people.)
These type of things shows you the true stripes of those in power, and who should be voted out ASAP.
Re:If this were a nobody that was attacked (Score:4, Insightful)
The Patriot Act is intended to focus on groups of people organizing to carry out a planned action. It doesn't do anything for single crazy acting on their own.
What allowed Nidal Hasan to kill people was rampant political correctness.
Whether what Nidal Hasan did constitutes terrorism is still open for debate. The typical things we identify with terrorism such as a political cause, message, or grievance is still unidentified. When a combatant buries an IED, we can assume that his issue is that the US leaves Iraq/Afghanistan. What's Nidal Hasan's gripe? His deployment? The US's role in the Middle East? Does anyone know? Does he even have one? When is an act terrorism and when is it just simple murder?
Is the shooting at Virginia Tech terrorism? Or is it only terrorism if the perpetrator is Muslim?
Re:If this were a nobody that was attacked (Score:5, Interesting)
And yet the FBI had plenty of tips about the hijackers before the actual attack.
Perhaps it was simply the same bloated bureacracy that fail before 9/11, which got warning signs but the signals got lost in the chain of command because they're too busy spying on the emails of millions of others.
Terrorism is a tactic designed to invoke a specific psychological reaction.
The way past US leadership uses it is a catch-all phrase to grab power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW8Bj1upbJQ [youtube.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW8Bj1upbJQ [youtube.com]
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"Perhaps it was simply the same bloated bureacracy that fail before 9/11, which got warning signs but the signals got lost in the chain of command because they're too busy spying on the emails of millions of others."
The GP was referring to the fact that Hasan's medical supervisors treated him differently because he was a Muslim and gave him third, fourth, and fifth chances that they would not have given other students.
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I don't disagree with your general premise, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how your statement logically contradicts his.
I'm presuming that the 'hijackers' you are referring to are the 9/11 hijackers. That was a case of a group of organized people, not a single cr
Re:If this were a nobody that was attacked (Score:5, Insightful)
Or is it only terrorism if the perpetrator is Muslim?
It is terrorism precisely when the word "terrorism" brings out the right sentiment in those listening to you.
The British were terrorising Catholics in Northern Ireland. The IRA were terrorising the English in London. The ANC was terrorising the white government in apartheid South Africa. The apartheid government was terrorising the black majority. Jews terrorised Arab villages and British hotels. Arabs terrorise Jewish women and children in marketplaces.
Re:If this were a nobody that was attacked (Score:4, Insightful)
And don't forget the Americans terrorizing the British East India Company in Boston.
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Oh come on... We've [wikipedia.org] done [slashdot.org] a [historylea...site.co.uk] lot [gwu.edu] better [serendipity.li] than [thirdworldtraveler.com] that [iraqbodycount.org] lately [wired.com].
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I think the tar and feathering of loyalists was more terrorism. Seemed to put quite a damper on that portion of the people who disagreed with the revolt.
Be interesting to know what percent of the population was pro-revolt.
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Except that intelligence agencies and the FBI were already aware that Osama Bin Laden was planning something big, that members of his group had been traveling under false identities, and that at least two of them were in the United States prior to the attack. The President had been sent a memo that there was a very high likelihood that Osama Bin
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I'm tending towards him being a disgruntled nutjob, no different, really, than Timothy McVey or postal nutso Patrick Sherrill. The fact that he's Muslim seems only to go to motive. The guy was clearly a ticking time bomb, whose only advantage, as happens so many times in these cases, was that for peculiar reasons, no one seemed willing to bounce him out at the first warning signs.
But it serves a political end to move him out of the disgruntled nutjob category and into the terrorist category.
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Whether what Nidal Hasan did constitutes terrorism is still open for debate.
And entirely irrelevant. 12 people are dead whether it was terrorism or not.
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Dear Citizen,
The Patriot Act was infact a great help it stopping Nidal Hasan from killing more people than he did! Infact, if we allow full wiretapping, remove all that paperwork that gets in the way of stopping police from stopping and searching you, as well as any probable cause requirements involved, this would never have happenned! It just turns out the soft liberal types, who are first to defend cartoon
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Telephone intercepts are not admissible evidence in UK courts.
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Please Do It, Italy! (Score:5, Insightful)
If they do go ahead with it, the serious backlash will surely bring down the Berlusconi regime. Or is this just wishful thinking? His media power has really brainwashed the majority of citizens there..
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It might possibly bring down the Berlusconi regime, but then it'll be Prodi's turn again and he'll fuck it up like always. Expect Silvio in power again after a nice little 6 month vacation.
The problem in Italy is not that people are "brainwashed" by Silvio, it's just that he sucks slightly less than the only other choice.
Re:Please Do It, Italy! (Score:4, Insightful)
Having only two choices when the population of Italy is nearly 60 million sounds like the bigger problem
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What about a country with 300 millions and two choices?
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Wishful thinking. I have yet to see a backlash against proposed or actual censorship, even in countries that have a strong freedom of speech culture.
This little blip will not bring down Musso^H^H^HBerlusconi.
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If the EU had any balls they would have kicked Italy out long ago because of Berlusconi's behaviour.
Wrong response (Score:5, Insightful)
"Yeah, some guy hit me with a souvenir... Oh well, shit happens! The security guards are stepping it up a notch or two, but it's not like I was shot or anything. Thanks god, you know? Wouldn't want to leave my wife having to look for an inferior lover! Vote for me, you guys... I'm easy going."
And the world moves on.
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A partial U-turn (Score:4, Funny)
Usually, we just call that "turning left" (or right, depending on your country)
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In case of a right-wing government like this one, a partial U-turn is probably a left turn.
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A J-turn or L-turn, depending on direction.
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I think in most fonts a J turn ends up being equivalent to a U turn. Those damned serif fonts will screw up your turns every time though.
So this is how it is going to happen? (Score:1, Funny)
1. Create some incident. Any incident will do.
2. Blame it on people on the web. You can call them "terrorists", if necessary.
3. Censor the web. The more the better. Pass some bill overnight if necessary.
4. If someone in media raises questions about censorship, publish some irrelevant "scandal" to deflect public attention.
5. ???
6. Profit!
If that doesn't work completely, continue boiling the frog, rinse and repeat.
Surely profit, but not for us, folks. You are screwed, wherever on this Earth you are.
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1. Create some incident, or wait for one to happen.
2. Blame it on [insert group here]. It's better if you can find evidence to this effect, but not critical.
3. Propose countermeasures against said group in particular, and more strict authority in general, to solve #2.
4. If someone objects, discredit them with accusations of being one of them, and/or distract the public. 5. Profit!^W Power!
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2. Blame it on [insert group here]
Canada?
this reminds me... (Score:2)
I think it's in "Forever Peace" where the goverment nukes a city (Denver?) and acusses the then new 'nanotechnology' of the incident to take control over every production line and create a politicians-controlled monopoly.
Maybe in 50 years we discover that the attacker is a member of the AISI (italian intelligence agency); or maybe not, because the web would be controlled by government...
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Yeah what a bunch of stupid sheeple here, agreeing with the points of view that they themselves hold.
Whenever I see a knee-jerk reaction.... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's All About CONTROL! (Score:5, Insightful)
Governments *hate* the idea of people having too much freedom.
Why?
It means you'll start asking too many questions and governments don't like that!
It also means you become difficult to control.
How?
By keeping you fearful - global warming, recession, terrorism, nuclear arms and now the freedom of the Internet (terrorists and paedophiles use it)
These subjects in themselves are genuine concerns but governments have a knack of focusing on them and using them to conrol the general population. Usually by using extreme measures via law and policy legislation.
Web censorship is no different. Governments need us to be passive and compliant. Fortunately free speech is *impossible* to control it's part of who you are. You can censor or prohibit the *mechanisms* that express free speech but never "control" it.
Suppose Italy do censor the Internet and other countries follow. Do you really think that will be the end of it?
I don't think so.
If they start blocking web sites (probably at ISP level) then people will turn to encryption and deliver content that way. If encrypting the web becomes illegal then some other mechanism will manifest itself (e.g. bypassing the ISP entirely).
I hate to say this, but some form of government control is coming to the Internet whether you like it or not.
So, be prepared.
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Who are italians (Score:1)
Articolo 31 - Domani smetto
Articolo 31 - Italiano medio
You'll be perfectly able to understand what's going on if you listen to these songs...to bad I can't find a pre-made English translation..
Cheers,
Ps. I'm Italian
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Fans (Score:3, Insightful)
Well that is a rather knee jerk reaction, last I checked Facebook was not for just people from Italy. Besides people will become fans of anything on Facebook, from beer, to Jeffrey Dahmer.
Good on you, Italy (Score:2, Interesting)
Good on you, Italy. At least you are being honest about why you would want to censor the net. None of the usual "terrorist pedophile" nonsense. Just a nice, simple message to the populous: "we don't want to hear from you, please go away".
However, since I am against censorship, I might have to reconsider the answer to my Simpson quote [slashdot.org] regarding asteroid targets from earlier today.
That's already in place. (Score:4, Informative)
You get directed to a generic web page (hosted at the government company SOGEI Spa [wikipedia.org]) that says that you are not allowed to visit those websites.
If you are in Italy you can try http://www.ladbrokes.com/ [ladbrokes.com] or http://www.skybet.com/ [skybet.com].
Can you spell "freedom" in Italian? We cannot.
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Berlusconi already in control - of Slashdot? (Score:2)
I mean, look at the facts. If this had been an incident in France, we would have two dozen posts with surrender jokes already. But here we have an Italian story and not one submarine screen door, bottom of the ocean, five reverse gears, pulling the pins and throwing them back reference. Someone has to be preventing this.
Partial U turn? (Score:3, Funny)
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It just shows you (Score:2)
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Only if they pay attention to it. :|
The train of thought (Score:3, Informative)
-Berlusconi was attacked by Mr.Tartaglia because he hated him.
-The attack was caused by the hateful mood (http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/politica/2009/12/15/visualizza_new.html_1646244271.html/ [www.ansa.it])
-Facebook is full of political hatred (http://www.ilgiornale.it/interni/su_facebook_tartaglia_eroe_chi_odia/tartaglia-facebook-berlusconi/13-12-2009/articolo-id=406674-page=0-comments=1/ [ilgiornale.it])
-Facebook is on the Internet
-The solution is to control Facebook, and also the whole Internet to avoid mistakes (http://www.repubblica.it/2009/12/sezioni/politica/giustizia-22/rodota/rodota.html/ [repubblica.it])
Berlusconi Dangerously? (Score:2)
After seeing the words "Minister Robert Maroni," all I can picture in my mind is a man with dark eyebrows seeing the Facebook page and then ranting about "iceholes" and "fargin' bastiges."
Pretty Arrogant (Score:4, Insightful)
It's too bad, but people get attacked all the time. However, when a leader gets attacked then we need to shut down the Internet. Pretty arrogant and self-centered. I'm glad the Internet is pretty free, but it's only a matter of time until politicians invent an excuse to control it. I'm sure it will be for the children, or to stop some possible terrorist scenario. Then it'll creep out from there.
JOhn
Wrong title (Score:3, Insightful)
It should have read:
AFTER BERLUCONI ATTACK, ITALIAN GOVERNMENT SHOWS HIS PLANS FOR CENSORSHIP.
Anyone with info about how Berlusconi deals with the basis of democracy (independent news, respect to the Constitution, independent judges) would have expected these plans to be in the works. The attack gives them an opportunity to show them.
true free speech is rare in the world (Score:1, Redundant)
Don't forget the "Italian Crackdown" in 1992. (Score:1, Interesting)
Don't forget the "Italian Crackdown" in 1992.
To fight against crime, police busted all italian fidonet BBS.
122 arrest and 159 BBS confiscated.
Ref: http://www.altx.com/interzones2/italy/crackdown.html
Regard,
Dan
They've got it all wrong! (Score:1)