eBay vs. Craigslist Courtroom Fisticuffs Start Today 129
davekleiman writes with news that former eBay chief exec Meg Whitman took the stand today to kick off the battle that has been brewing between Craigslist and eBay. The waters are further clouded by Whitman's upcoming bid for governor of California. "eBay wants to shed light on the 'coercive plan' that it has said Newmark hatched with Craigslist Chief Executive Jim Buckmaster to dilute eBay's ownership stake, ultimately stripping eBay of its seat on the Craigslist board. Craigslist has hit back that eBay used its board seat to glean information to launch its own classified site, Kijiji. Craigslist also claims that eBay used deceptive tactics to direct traffic away from its site."
Cross Ownership (Score:3, Interesting)
It would be like Microsoft having a board seat at Apple. Or Google at Microsoft. It just doesn't happen.
What made eBay and Craigslist different? Or think they were different?
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Google at apple? ... oh.
Re:Cross Ownership (Score:5, Funny)
It's easier to find prostitutes on Craigslist.
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Try ordering a prostitute from eBay and half the time, it doesn't work or isn't as describe. 38-A cup?!!!
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You're lucky. Most of the time, she doesn't even show up, because the eBay pimp's account was stolen from some guy in Cleveland. And of course, PayPal's Terms of Service ensure that you won't get your money back.... :-D
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A-cup. That reminds me of a buddy who found a chick on eBay. The feedback was A++++++++++++++++!
*snort*
Thank you. I'll be here all week.
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It's easier to find prostitutes on Craigslist.
Insert power seller, feedback, bid retraction, or pimppal joke here.
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It's easier to find prostitutes on Craigslist.
But its easier to find pimps on ebay
Re: It's easier to find prostitutes on Craigslist. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Cross Ownership (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Cross Ownership (Score:5, Interesting)
They have a competitor on the board since the competitor elected itself to the board with all the shares which they bought. No one but this competitor is happy with this setup.
Clarification... No one but a significant owner (who just happens to be a competitor) is happy with this setup. It sounds like a diet form of hostile takeover.
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No one but this competitor is happy with this setup.
Well, if the major owner doesn't take the market's concerns into account, that which they own will lose business, so they will lose on their purchase. And they should be free to fail by their mistakes.
Re:Cross Ownership (Score:5, Informative)
It does happen in some industries, and the law on it is pretty complex and murky (and varies by country). When it's below a certain threshold, so the minority stake doesn't exercise control over the company, and has representation basically only to ensure its rights as a minority shareholder are respected, it's considered a "passive investment" and not subject to the usual antitrust scrutiny that would ensue if, say, eBay actually tried to buy Craigslist (or buy a stake considered controlling). A lot of economists are a bit skeptical of just how passive such passive investments are, though. The keywords +"passive investment" +competitors [google.com] bring up a whole pile of writing on the subject...
Re:Cross Ownership (Score:4, Insightful)
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eBay owns 25% of Craigslist.
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It always struck me as a little weird that major competitors should have a seat on the board.
It would be like Microsoft having a board seat at Apple. Or Google at Microsoft. It just doesn't happen.
What made eBay and Craigslist different? Or think they were different?
How else are they supposed to get away with collusion and evade anti-trust laws?
check out www.theyrule.net and see just how interconnected various companies really are. (and then implicitly the impact on free markets and fair business practice)
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We don't all 'know that', and much of it is because what you said is simply untrue. The potential in our world is infinite, your view is skewed and hypercynical so your opinion on probable outcomes is simply junk.
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Microsoft did have a seat at Apple. It had to. If Apple had faltered, the Feds would have broken up Microsoft. Believe it or not, Microsoft tried really hard to keep Apple alive (during its non-Steve Jobs days).
Same goes with VISA and Mastercard, except there the threat was explicitly stated (in the case of Microsoft, the threat was implicit), the Feds ordered that both boards of VISA and MasterCard share board members (forcing its larger member ban
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If you really want to understand how this happened, read this wired story. It will make a lot more sense.
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/08/craigslist-vs-ebay/ [wired.com]
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Yes, I screwed up.
This is the article that explains how Ebay acquired the stake and why Craigslist is mad.
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2008/04/ebay-says-craig/#previouspost [wired.com]
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It always struck me as a little weird that major competitors should have a seat on the board.
Here's some background on the Ebay stake in Craigslist.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newswar/interviews/newmark.html [pbs.org]
http://www.craigslist.org/about/press/ebay.stake [craigslist.org]
Interesting clip from 2nd link:
When he originally gave a stake in Craigslist to the executive that sold his shares to eBay, Mr. Newmark said, he never expected them to be worth anything. "I made a gift of some equity in craigslist to a guy who w
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Richard M. Stallman, Eric S. Raymond, Linus Torvalds, and Bruce Schneier on Microsoft's board.
I don't see them there. [microsoft.com]
Kijiji? (Score:5, Funny)
OK, I use Ebay a lot, and Craigslist even more, and this is the first time I've ever heard of Kijiji.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijiji) says it's been up since 2007 in the US.
Sounds like an epic failure to me. I wonder if it carries any Zune ads?
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I was about to post a dupe of your post. Checked out Kijiji.com and there doesn't seem to be anything there???
Epic failure indeed.
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This is really irritating, as Kijiji is stuffed with adertising, tries to upsell you for higher placement, etc. etc.
not sure why it happened in the first place, but it's the state of things.
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I think it has to do with when craigslist created local sites - kijiji did essentially the whole world it lots of little pieces in one big creation event while craigslist adds new markets at a much slower pace. I much prefer CL but when advertising something, I will usually post on both - kijiji seems to get more eyeballs in my region.
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Re:Kijiji? (Score:4, Insightful)
Spoken like a true eBay shareholder.
Only in slashdot (Score:2)
ad hominem == insightful.
Re:Kijiji? (Score:4, Informative)
I live in Phoenix.
Doing a quick and unscientific test, the Phoenix Kijiji site has 37 for-sale listings posted for Saturday, Sunday, and Today.
The Phoenix Craigslist site has 1200 for-sale listings in the last 45 MINUTES.
At least for my location, I think Kijiji qualifies as an "Epic failure".
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In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates (Score:5, Informative)
Craigslist is big in large markets, but in small markets, no one uses it. Kijiji rules the roost in small markets.
IE in my homedown, of about 100,000 people, there are less than 200 posts right now in craigslist ForSale section.
Kijiji has over 24,000.
It is because of the classic dillema that keeps users on Craigslist (despite it being a steamping pile of crap), and keeps people on eBay (despite them charging a fortune). People searching need a critical mass of people selling, and people selling need a critical mass of people searching. It is a self-renforcing monopoloy that is a tough nut to crack.
Craigslist has always been unpopular in small markets, that is where Kijiji got its foothold.
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This makes no sense at all. Why would Craigslist benefit from th
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I can't actually find a specific small-town environment in which Kijiji actually has an advantage. Can anyone suggest a specific one?
http://edmonton.en.craigslist.ca/ [craigslist.ca]
http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/ [kijiji.ca]
In every comparable category I've checked, Kijiji has more activity (usually by an order of magnitude.) For example "Computers" - Kijiji has 17 ads in the last hour, Craigslist has 3 for the whole day. (And that's not counting "Computer accessories" which only exists in Kijiji.) "Motorcycles" - Kijiji has 31 posts so far today, Craigslist has 3. "Furniture" - Kijiji has 27 posts in the last hour, Craigslist has 4 for the day.
Every other categor
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Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates (Score:5, Funny)
So Kijiji is eBay's Canadian girlfriend [urbandictionary.com]?
That explains why no one here knows her, but eBay still talks about her all the time.
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Unofficial, unscientific, anecdotal stats coming up:
I just ran a quick compare between CL Toronto and Kijiji Toronto comparing the number of for-sale/wanted ads featuring the word "Nokia" (chosen on a whim to make the search more targeted) posted between Dec 6 and now.
CL: 205 posts.
Kijiji: 212 posts.
From my personal experience, most items that I am searching for are advertised on both lists.
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I wonder if Edmonton, Ca is an anomaly.
More likely that Craigslist didn't have as much of a head start as it did with other cities.
Kijiji started in Canada (including Edmonton) in March 2005. Craigslist added Edmonton in Jan 2005. It makes sense that in cities where Craigslist had little or no momentum, there would be much less "network effect", which would allow a competitor to do better.
If you have two players fighting over a new market, perception would drive users to the one that works better, or looks better. As both sites work pretty m
Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates (Score:4, Informative)
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Probably. Kijiji is a much sillier name than craigslist, so it's natural for the site to appeal more to Canadians.
Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates (Score:4, Funny)
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It should be fairly easy, find the home towns of each of the major investors to Ebay, there are your communities that come out better in Kijiji.
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Here in Anchorage Alaska there is nothing up on Kijiji (14 sales). Same went for where I used to live, a small market (Skagit county Washington).
For all of South Dakota there are 29 things for sale on Kijiji and hundreds of sales on Craigslist for today alone.
So I'm not sold on Kijiji "ruling the roost" in small markets.
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Sidenote: When did the Fairbanks craigslist (finally) split off of the Anchorage one? Back when I lived there, it was maddening to have the entire (rather large) state lumped into one bunch.
Now, in New Jersey I have the opposite problem. Being on the cusp of the NYC suburbs, there are 3-4 separate CL sites that post sales/jobs within 20 minutes of my house.
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So if we have more Craigslist than Kijiji we get to call ourselves a big city? Woot!
As of now the December 7th tallies in all of 'for sale' are roughly -
Craigslist - 2100
Kijiji - 4 (yes, four)
Population - Roughly 450,000 for the entire multi-county area
Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates(By Lying) (Score:1)
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Even Omaha, NE shows up as under "Des Moines, IA" - Confusing.
Depends where you are (Score:2)
Where I live, and what I buy/sell, Kijiji has *way* more users.
Compare:
http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/f-buy-and-sell-cameras-camcorders-W0QQCatIdZ103 [kijiji.ca]
http://edmonton.en.craigslist.ca/pho/ [craigslist.ca]
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I think Kijiji is more popular than Craigslist in Canada in general, while Craigslist tends to dominate U.S. markets. Not sure why.
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Craigslist has 5 in-town hits and 6 more within plausible commuting distance posted since yesterday.
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It's the place to go for all your Zune, HD-DVD, and New Coke needs.
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Craigslist has no service in Ottawa, so Kijiji gets all the sales here.
But there's UsedOttawa.com that is a lot more popular, especially since Kijiji is just awful to work with... (with all this WEB TWO POINT OH garbage I'm surprised it gets used at all)
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Governor? (Score:1, Funny)
Meg won't be governor, that bitch that drove HP into the ground has a better chance.
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watching rich people fight (Score:2, Funny)
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I understand it's way more trendy to rag on NASCAR, but how does your criticism not hold true for ALL sports?
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In some sports they go in straight lines.
Re:watching rich people fight (Score:4, Funny)
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Some sports are more obviously modern replacements for warfare, allowing us to indulge in human emotional conflict with little real consequence.
And unlike the older practice of watching actual battles, the spectators are much less likely to be killed as a result of watching :)
(except in NASCAR... maybe...)
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Honest question: Is Craig actually rich? From what I can tell, the staff at CL actually take steps to minimize their revenues -- to make just enough to cover costs and pay their (few) employees a good salary.
Microsoft? (Score:3, Funny)
ebay is now just evil (Score:5, Informative)
Re:ebay is now just evil (Score:4, Informative)
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You are right. 28% share was sold by Mr. Knowlton. But why? He was disgruntled with the direction of where the other two founder's direction. Here read an article from Mercury News.
http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_13944966
btw, The original 28% was diluted by CL to 25% in 2007. now, ebay has one a quarter of control.
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I might be missing something, but that doesn't sound particularly suspicious to me. Someone who owned a stake of Craigslist sold it; isn't that basically how stakes in companies work?
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Seems like a small pond, but eBay is right (Score:1)
I think I have to side with eBay on this one... as they bought a 25% stake in Craigslist for $25 million, how that doesn't mean they should get a say in how the company is run I couldn't fathom.
Re:Seems like a small pond, but eBay is right (Score:4, Insightful)
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Depends on the type of shares they purchased. If they were preferred shares, you get first dibs on dividends, but no votes. If they were Common Shares, then eBay would have a say in the vote of board of directors, etc..
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Not only that, but I'm not aware of any rules that say that a corporation cannot run a new public offering of more shares, just because it may dilute the existing shareholder percentages (though there may be rules that way, "if you offer an IPO of (x) shares of common stock, you must also supply (y) number of shares to group (G)", ala the NYT).
It may not be a good idea for the stock price to do such, but nonetheless.
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Dirty Pool (Score:3, Informative)
This sounds like dirty pool all the way around.
1). Decided to Create competing site
2). Buy shares from a shareholder to gain a seat on the board
3). (possibly) use information gleaned from meetings of the board towards own good
4). (possibly) use seat on board to negatively influence decisions
As others have mentioned there is certainly a conflict of interest here and while Ebay has every right to own shares, sitting on the board is just unethical and its surprising that the other shareholders would stand for it....
Just one question (Score:5, Funny)
"Ow, man! You kicked me right in the kijiji!"
"jiji" in Chinese (Score:1)
In Chinese, JiJi is more or less slang along the lines of "willy" or other children's words for such body parts.
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"Ow, man! You kicked me right in the kijiji!"
"right in the cijines"?
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"Kijiji (pronounced key-jee-jee) is Swahili for village." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijiji
And it's English for "Lame Craigslist Knock-Off With a Stupid Name"
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Too shy shy. hush hush.eye to eye (Score:2, Funny)
and in other news (Score:1)
Different animals, and Meg being stupid (Score:2)
When I want to advertise my *local* video production services, I use Craigslist: http://sarasota.craigslist.org/muc/1498727387.html [craigslist.org]
When I need someone *local* to fix a problem in my living room laminate flooring, Craiglist.
If I want to buy or sell high-end commercial video gear, eBay.
Craigslist is local, eBay is national.
eBay is about "things," while Craiglist is more about services and events.
George W. Bush's VP -- nasty chickenhawk draft-dodger, don't remember his name right now -- talked up eBay but prob
Kijiji (Score:1)
JooJoo (Score:1, Troll)