Newly Declassified FBI Docs Reveal Predictive Data System 185
An anonymous reader writes 'Newly declassified documents show that the FBI is developing a data-mining system to uncover terror sleeper cells. Among the 1.6 billion records in the National Security Analysis Center — tens of thousands of travel records, including hotel and airline records. Other revelations in the documents uncovered by a Wired.com FOIA request show that the feds want to expand the system for use in cyber-crime investigations, and it's already been used to scrutinize helicopter pilots and Philly cab drivers. The system has eerie resemblances to DARPA's once-banned Total Information Awareness program."
I've got an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
How about a data mining application to scour through political speeches and legislative records to identify politicians most- and least-likely to support such a scheme?
Re:I've got an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
It wouldn't work. When have you heard about a political speech and reality having any connection?
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When have you heard about a political speech and reality having any connection?
Oooh, I have one! It even has its own article in Wikipedia [wikipedia.org].
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When have you heard about a political speech and reality having any connection?
Oooh, I have one! It even has its own article in Wikipedia [wikipedia.org].
Fixed that for you... (And yes, someone ought to tell the Slashcode monkeys that 7-bit ASCII is only sufficient for 5% of the world's population...)
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I've never checked but does slashdot come in any other language than the one read by the 5%?
Yes, there are versions of Slashcode that can deal with unicode perfectly fine, but slashdot.org has chosen to filter out anything not in ASCII.
I heard that this was apparently a "fix" for people playing around impersonating other users by using similar characters in their usernames and suchlike. One might think that it wouldn't be much effort to put in a whitelist for some frequently-used glyphs and alphabets, but then, I'm the guy with the 7-digit-uid...
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Re:I've got an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, what an ignorant statement. Slashdot frequently posts articles from countries where they don't speak English. Zensursula, HADOPI, Piratpartiet are just three examples at the top of my head.
People post stuff in their native tongue all the time on Slashdot, and have complained about the broken Unicode support for ages.
Slashdot sees itself as a major internet publication, but still lives in a 7-bit world. What is this, 1985?
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Zensursula, HADOPI, Piratpartiet...
What is this, 1985?
Not yet. But don't you worry, we're getting there...
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What is this, 1985?
In light of the subject matter, I would say no, it is 1984.
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Even those of us in English-speaking countries run into problems. Want to refer to Euros, Pounds Sterling, or Japanese Yen? Sorry, none of those characters are accepted. You can type them, but Slashcode will mangle them (after submission, not always after preview) unless you remember to use HTML entities. Want to mention the app-switching feature on OS X? I'm afraid you'll have to mangle the name to Expose, because this is what Slashdot displays if you type it correctly: Exposé.
There were
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!todhsalS no skrow llits retcarahc l-t-r ehT ?tuoba gniklat uoy era tahW
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Yes, English. If you want to express amounts of money in units other than dollars, you have to type the html code for the currency unit rather than the character on your keyboard.
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Forget political speeches... how about campaign contributions [followthemoney.org] and votes?
Re:I've got an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
I get what you are saying but your examples are only true in narrow contexts.
Ds want you to have the freedom to make lots of choices they approve of, just like Rs. (they just approve of different things)
Ds fully approve of their freedom to make money off the public, just like Rs.
You have to translate based on who is saying it and what (s)he is talking about.
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If you think Obama is stupid and a pawn I've got a bridge to sell ya.
It'll make a set with the one you bought last Nov.
They are all crooked.
If they weren't they would have gotten an honest job.
They were all crooked from the moment they entered high school Student council, some earlier.
Sense that time it's just been the crookocracy finding the best (and best connected) talkers. The losers are selling used cars/insurance/plots.
Finally kicking foreign ass when needed (like in Afghanistan) is one o
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How about a data mining application to scour through political speeches and legislative records to identify politicians most- and least-likely to support such a scheme?
You'll have faster I/O if you focus on searching for the ones that aren't likely.
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"Such a scheme" meaning "terrorist cells", right? ;)
Sounds familiar... (Score:2, Interesting)
Wow, What a Shock... (Score:3, Insightful)
You didn't really think TIA was going away, did you?
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Re:Wow, What a Shock... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Wow, What a Shock... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, I'm thinking this isn't such a bad thing. When you have agencies competing like that it seems likely that they're also going to be keeping an eye on the other agencies, keeping them more honest in the process. When they all start cooperating I think I'll feel less safe, as a matter of fact.
It's the same with the political parties. Just the right amount of non-cooperation and competitiveness keeps one organization from becoming the oligarchy it naturally wants to become.
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Wasteful of money, sure, I agree. But if none of them have access to all the information in a country, they really can't abuse all of that information.
Also, on top of it, the 'one-upsmanship' is great for keeping them on their toes. They need to do better than the other guys, rather than ever fall into the "good enough" category. They should have to compete. What they shouldn't have is no one to give their high-risk-of-something-about-to-happen type of information to. They should have one guy that they all
This just in . . . (Score:3, Insightful)
The federal government (especially those under the executive branch) will do whatever the hell they please, and scandals only force them to whitewash and restart unpopular programs under different names. /rant
Ssssssh! ACORN is giving tax advice to pimps! (Score:4, Insightful)
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I don't think you know what you're talking about. Cite some ballot stuffing or registration fraud. You do know that ACORN checks the forms it submits and flags what they deem to be fraudulent right? Then, the city does it's own check. Every time you read a story about ACORN submitting bogus registration data, if you can get past the headline, you'll see that it's ACORN who is flagging the registrations and the workers turning them in.
So, why do they turn them in at all? Because it's the LAW. They hav
Will it have the same ridiculous seal? (Score:2)
Someone has to feed the conspiracy theorists;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office [wikipedia.org]
Today, do something out of the ordinary (Score:5, Interesting)
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Today, for no reason, I actually used most of my mod points (for no reason).
Do those count?
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"Deviate from your normal routine in very absurd and unusual ways for no apparent reason."
But I do that every day already!
Re:Today, do something out of the ordinary (Score:4, Interesting)
It is actually harder than you might think.
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False Positives (Score:2, Interesting)
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its a real shame (Score:2)
that for years many of us took for granted that we would always live in a free society and left a trail behind us. Now its too late.
What about P2P? (Score:2)
Last night the Vermont Attorney General spoke to a small group of good Democrats and me about his various ongoing efforts. He's the guy who was suing the phone companies a few years ago for cooperating with Bush on spying on us, so generally on the bright side of things. But he ended his talk by claiming that the same file sharing software his college-enrolled sons are likely using is also being used to spread "millions" of child porn images.
I almost raised my hand to ask him if he was aware of the differen
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"But he ended his talk by claiming that the same file sharing software his college-enrolled sons are likely using is also being used to spread "millions" of child porn images."
well, that's true of the wires and optic cable his sons use too ... so what?
Conspiracy Theory Anyone? (Score:2)
it's already been used to scrutinize helicopter pilots and Philly cab drivers
This sounds a lot like the plot of the movie Conspiracy Theory [imdb.com] where Mel Gibson plays a paranoid cab driver who publishes a newsletter of various conspiracy theories jumbled together from random public sources (this was before the age of blogs) and is chased by personnel from a shadowy government agency in black SUVs and helicopters (ala the USSS).
Re:Conspiracy Theory Anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
The real shadowy agencies are much smarter than that. If someone finds a bit of the truth, they don't chase him down (which would tend to give him credibility), they leak that truth along with a bunch of obviously bogus and silly information just to discredit him.
Not posting anonymously because They will know who I am anyway.
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Also, I have evidence that aliens control McDonalds.
And Obama is really a woman.
Obligatory.... (Score:2)
Obligatory Minority Report goes here...
RAW (Score:3, Informative)
-Oz
Sounds Like Vestigal AI To Me... (Score:2, Interesting)
I remember hearing a comment back after the 9/11 attacks that the FBI database couldn't be searched like Google provides it's search queries. From that standpoint of modernization and capability, I say cheers to the FBI for making such a rebound (smells like Carnivore) 8 years later. Interestingly, or rather unsurprisingly, "The FBI declined to comment on the program."
Now on to the AI accusations.
"That could change if the FBI gets it hands on the data sources on its 2008 wish list. That list includes airl
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I know eh? Us guys in IT, we have to handle alot. All those log files, so little time to sift through them all. How do you find the problem? I mean if only there was a program to help us sort through it --
Oh hey, whats this ad for? Splunk?
Could that handle Travel, hotel, and airline records that the FBI have been gathering?
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I imagine working in government IT doesn't feel all that much different. You just get to go outside more.
Re:Give up? (Score:5, Insightful)
they don't need to be omniscient to be a threat to the public. all they need to do is be able to go after enough people to make the public think twice about challenging them.
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If push comes to shove, the public can defeat *any* government. No force can handle 10-50 times it's numbers. As the phrase goes "you're gonna run out of bullets".
Easier example: taser guns can be fired at max, 3 times. 500 angry people vs 10 angry cops? well gee, guess who's going to be running away first.
Re:Give up? (Score:5, Insightful)
they can if they are the only ones with defensive weapons.
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"Easier example: taser guns can be fired at max, 3 times"
Tell that to the guy who died in North Queensland after being tasered 28 times.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/18/2601290.htm [abc.net.au].
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Really?
Britain defeated Argentina in armed combat in the Falklands despite being 3000 miles from home and outnumbered at least 10 to 1 both in the air and on land.
So if one trained military force can defeat another trained military force at those odds, what makes you think a trained military force can't defeat an untrained civilian force at those odds?
How do you think Nazi German managed to take as much territory as they did? They certainly didn't have enough native population to control the much larger pop
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It doesn't matter. If the cops do open up, they have no more people to exert authority over, and they'll kill each other sooner or later trying to exert some sort of authority, destroying any chance they might have of exerting said authority
If the cops don't open up, they'll run, and lose the authority anyway.
They're in a serious lose-lose in that situation.
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not that I want to encourage rebelliousness, violent, or crazy rightwing concepts, but do you think civil wars involve the police or military? I'll give you a hint: smart police stay way the hell out of it as best they can (as they like to live/have families too). Even in Iraq you should note that as examples.
if people are quite determined to riot/aggress there's no force that can stop that without causing a mass killing the likes of which would not be authorized by any force in the US, for sure.
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Don't worry... I'm probably already on the list. But you won't be, you displayed 'civility'
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Re:Give up? (Score:5, Insightful)
The public challenging them isn't the problem. It's the guys after their 72 virgins and THEY ARE NOT "THE PUBLIC".
Making the public think twice does nothing but make our lives more of a hassle. Making the guys seeking an express check in to paradise think twice doesn't do much good either. They are planning to die, and that's if the operation is successful. Taking one for the sleeper cell and getting caught just means the guys in the next cell will be getting first choice in the afterlife.
Eventually terrorists won't have to actually do anything. They come up with a zany and half-baked plan, get caught, cause everyone to overreact and then they've caused more damage then if they actually did manage to blow something up.
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They come up with a zany and half-baked plan, get caught, cause everyone to overreact and then they've caused more damage then if they actually did manage to blow something up.
Seems to be the way it works now....
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Someone should explain to those ass-clowns that the 72 virgins are perpetual virgins, meaning you can't fuck them. It will be like spending eternity with 72 twelve year old sisters. That's not paradise, it's a real hell.
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From the effing article:
"It's unclear how the FBI got the records."
Geez, TIA has been in operation for some time now: all those gazillion government contractors supplying realtime data (from First Data to the clowns who operate the toll booth cameras to the Pay-for-view Viacom, etc., etc., etc.) with SAIC being the number one intel contractor, Mantech, etc., and who does the background checks for the federal government? Pearson Govt. Svcs. owned by Veritas Capital, the folks who used to own DynCorp, wit
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I wouldn't be so sure about that - I've heard there are machines available nowadays which are specifically designed to store and rapidly process information in vast amounts. They're called conpewters or something like that.
Re:Give up? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Give up? (Score:5, Insightful)
Look up how Bayes' Theorem relates to random drug testing, for example. You will easily see how such systems are prone to false positives. And in a case like this -- where many magnitudes more people are innocent than guilty -- it gets that much worse. You will end up prosecuting (and possibly punishing) hundreds or thousands of innocent people for every guilty party you find.
NOT GOOD.
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Nor, for that matter, do I. Federal police and prosecutors have time and time and time again proven themselves to be some of the biggest bunglers ever to be employed by the public. Why should we expect that to suddenly change?
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If you send a text that says "The wedding cake is ready"
Ahhh, but what if that was a lie ?
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Re:Give up? (Score:5, Insightful)
But then they'll be successful in their primary objective, which is self-perpetuation and a larger budget next year.
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Today perhaps. While i don't buy they would choke on it, lets say for a mom,et that is true. But in time they would get past that and then have all this data to work with.
Giving it all to them (Score:2)
You know what, after all these years in IT, I say... give 'em as much data as they want. They'll choke and drown on it.
Nah; they'll just follow the model of the RIAA and other "business" firm that they love. Pretty soon we'll be reading about the FBI busting a terrorist ring - of 2nd graders in Hobunk. They'll have lots of "evidence" - the testimony of other 2nd graders in the school, including a couple that are FBI informants.
They'll also be prosecuting grandmas, though in that case, there might be some
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That really brings to mind the idea of data poisoning meets data mining, digitally creating the illusion of terror cells. Even if you did it by more primitive methods, say several people get together to create the illusion of a terror cell, by sending each other 'private' but, suggestive of terrorist acts communications (of course while fully documenting their non-terrorist intent), have they committed a crime when they are raided by government agencies or have the government agencies committed a crime of
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I don't look forward to bailing my mom out of prison for her planned 'schwartzwelderkirshtort' terrorist attack.
I don't look forward to EDS getting this contract.
Re:so ? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sadly, we are never going to know the answers.
I am sure there has been at least one nearly successful action in the US since 2001 that is utterly classified because it would tend to cause a panic - or a violent attack on people of a certain religious faith. So we aren't going to be informed, probably for the better.
All we are going to hear about is a few misguided individuals that had maybe a 5% chance of pulling something off, if they were really lucky. And the American population just goes on thinking that (a) all this terrorist stuff is way overblown, and (b) our government is doing a really good job. Of course, neither of these is all that true.
I suspect if the truth came out about one or maybe even two close calls people would utterly freak out. So in this case, secrecy protects us all.
Re:so ? (Score:5, Insightful)
I am sure there has been at least one nearly successful action in the US since 2001 that is utterly classified because it would tend to cause a panic - or a violent attack on people of a certain religious faith. So we aren't going to be informed, probably for the better.
This is using Pascal's Wager as an argument to continue black budget funding. There have been several thwarted attacks like the liquid bomb plot in the UK, and these haven't been causing full blown panic. Do you think there will ever be another shoebomber, or did the very public incapacitation of John Walker Lindh by concerned, untrained passengers suddenly furnish a very real deterrent on any future flight?
I think that sunlight is the best disinfectant in this case. by showing the true nature of domestic attacks or terrorist actions, we can clearly demonstrate who is operating on the side of truth and humanity. It is best to lead by example, not cloaking everything under secrecy and privilege. If the real information is not available anywhere and we are just told to "obey authority", that's not so much secrecy as it's forcefeeding denial. Tell us what the real problems are, not to buy lots of duct tape and pray.
Johnnie Walker (Score:2, Funny)
This is using Pascal's Wager as an argument to continue black budget funding. There have been several thwarted attacks like the liquid bomb plot in the UK, and these haven't been causing full blown panic. Do you think there will ever be another shoebomber, or did the very public incapacitation of John Walker Lindh by concerned, untrained passengers suddenly furnish a very real deterrent on any future flight?
John Walker Lindh was the "American Taliban," Richard Colvin Reid was the "Shoe Bomber."
I prefer Johnnie Walker Gold, Green or Blue, personally...
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So in this case, secrecy protects us all.
That same argument is also used to cover up an enormous amount of scary, incompetent, and/or fraudulent behavior by security agencies. From my experience in the government surveillance R&D business, when someone says 'If you knew what I knew, you would support program X', its very often bullshit.
Of course much of what is secret does need to be secret. But often the main effect of secrecy is a lack of accountability. Personally I think we would be better off overall if we opened most of it up.
People g
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Personally, taking a long view, I'd rather risk losing a city to a terrorist nuke than risk a Stalinist catastrophe.
I absolutely agree. However, it's worth recognizing that if a US city got nuked, it'd make a Stalinist catastrophe far more likely as panicked citizens would almost be begging government to take away their rights and exploit them.
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Right, good point, that's an example of where a fringe or elitist policy prescription would have counterproductive consequences. But I still think the government classified information system is out of control. Unfortunately it's hard to show the need for reform since it's largely invisible.
The patent system is a mess also, and it's also an invisible problem in the sense that it's partially beyond the technical comprehension of most people, but at least we can present data when we argue about it.
Re:so ? (Score:5, Insightful)
I am sure there has been at least one nearly successful action in the US since 2001 that is utterly classified because it would tend to cause a panic - or a violent attack on people of a certain religious faith.
Which religion? Democrats or Republicans? More seriously, I've heard this kind of argument before. If government actually had stopped a nearly successful action in the US, they'd advertise it 24/7 *unless* it reveals relevant government agencies as acting entirely incompetent in the case.
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Complete conjecture based on a very cynical outlook on people is marked Insightful.
Go slashdot!
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Why would they hide panic inducing information while simultaneously filling the airwaves with panic inducing disinformation?
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Target, Citibank, and Visa don't have the power to put me in prison for one....
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Target, Citibank, and Visa don't have the power to put me in prison for one....
If any of the above (or a few hundred other corporations) wanted you in prison, to prison you would go.
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Target, Citibank, and Visa don't have the power to put me in prison for one....
Erm, I hate to tell you this but yes. Yes they do.
Well, Citibank and Visa certainly do. All they need to do is put through a false transaction on your credit card, insist their systems are foolproof and refuse to refund you. Continue complaining?
Well, as far as the bank is concerned their systems are foolproof. Therefore, you definitely carried out the transaction. Therefore, you are trying to gain financially (ie. avoid paying) for something you did. Therefore, you are attempting to defraud the bank
Re:Deeper Questions (Score:4, Insightful)
Target, Citibank, and Visa won't lock you up in GITMO, bar your right of Habeas corpus, and let you rot for a decade because you went to Anarchy.com. But they will offer you 10% off of your next Molotov Cocktail purchase of more than $100!
-Rick
Re:Deeper Questions (Score:4, Insightful)
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I'm not following you.
We track the money, kill their entire families, take money back. I see that implied step and approve.
But how do you count the bodies. Specifically the actual hajis vs the scamming 'get your free $10 million' internet 'tards.
I'm all for it anyhow.
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You're forgetting about supply and demand. Make that offer, and every Tom, Dick, and Muhammed will be setting up "Al Queda in Peoria" cells just to qualify for the $10 million.