Danish FreeBSD Dev. Sues Lenovo Over "Microsoft Tax" 318
Handbrewer writes "The FreeBSD developer Poul-Henning Kamp (phk) has sued Lenovo in Denmark (Google translation, original here) over their refusal to refund the Windows Vista Business license, even though he declined the EULA during installation. Lenovo argues that they sell the computer as a full product, and that they cannot refund it partially, such as the power supply or the OS even if people intend to use a different one. This seems to be contrary to previous rulings in the EU where Acer and HP has been forced to refund the 'Microsoft tax.'"
Full refund (Score:4, Informative)
Better have a full refund and buy from someone else.
Case closed
Re:Whole product... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It might be bad in denmark (Score:2, Informative)
not quite... (Score:4, Informative)
There is not a EULA when starting OS X on a new machine which says 'if you do not agree, you may get a refund of OS X'.
EULA (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Full refund (Score:2, Informative)
But with a new PC, you pay the Windows licence cost even you choose to not get the PC with then.
Re:Full refund (Score:5, Informative)
Au Contraire, if you sell a product which has undisclosed terms refusing those terms should result in a refund. In order to use Microsoft Windows, you must accept their EULA. Unless you are claiming the Lenovo forced him to agree to the EULA prior to purchasing the computer, then those terms were undisclosed up to the point where he booted the computer and was presented with them.
Re:Full refund (Score:2, Informative)
Au Contraire, if you sell a product which has undisclosed terms refusing those terms should result in a refund.
For the whole product, yes. Not piecemeal parts.
In order to use Microsoft Windows, you must accept their EULA. Unless you are claiming the Lenovo forced him to agree to the EULA prior to purchasing the computer, then those terms were undisclosed up to the point where he booted the computer and was presented with them.
Oh bullshit. He knew the terms before buying the product. To claim otherwise is just disingenuous. Secondly, the EULA doesn't state that the retailer of the product is obligated to refund the user's money for the Microsoft license.
Re:It might be bad in denmark (Score:3, Informative)
I'm pretty sure IBM was licensing software long before Microsoft existed, probably before Bill Gates existed. They also got in trouble with the government for bundling hardware and software, and were subject to a consent decree until 2001. Current PC manufacturers probably can get away with bundling because they're not producing both the hardware and software.
Re:Full refund (Score:5, Informative)
Why is it that you think class action lawsuits are something found all over the world?
At least they're found in Denmark (Retsplejeloven chapter 23 a), so in this case, they may be entirely appropriate. Unlike your comment.
Re:Full refund (Score:2, Informative)
Re:True cost of windows? (Score:2, Informative)
I wouldn't be surprised if lenovo paid something low as in $5 per license of windows when everything was said and done, and then recouped the cost of the license with bloatware. This guy would be miffed to get a $5 check and microsoft would be miffed to have their B2B cost revealed to be a tiny tiny fraction of what they gut consumers for.
a don't think so!
The total of 311.85 euros of the overall purchase price of the notebook of 599 euros that Acer was forced to pay back was made up of 135.20 euros for Windows XP Home, 60 euros for Microsoft Works, 40.99 euros for PowerDVD, 38.66 euros for Norton Antivirus and 37 euros for NTI CD Maker. On top of that Acer had to pay a further 650 euros in, among other things, legal costs.
http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/96581
Re:Full refund (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Full refund (Score:3, Informative)
In some jurisdictions, the law supersedes that and makes the seller responsible for such terms. If Lenovo is unhappy with that, they could always refuse to sell there.
Re:Whole product... (Score:3, Informative)
Part of my CIS degree program required two semesters of business law, and I remember the liability lectures well. In the US, there is a chain of product liability that goes like this:
Company A make car windshields.
Company B makes cars, and buys its windshields from Company A.
Customer buys a car from Company B.
For whatever reason, a defect in the windshield causes Customer to incur a loss that can be recovered in court, so Customer wants to sue. Who does Customer sue?
A) Company A
B) Company B
C) No-one, as US law has left Customer to hang by the neck until dead.
Although most of you have instinctively chosen C, you're wrong. As are those of you who chose A. Customer did not buy from Company A, and so does not have standing to sue. Since Company B resells Company A's product, Company B assumes liability for defects. Company B has standing to sue Company A, and can do so to recover its losses for being sued over defects in the products it bought from Company A.
Obviously, this doesn't necessarily apply to this case since it's not in the US, but I suspect something similar to be true.
Re:Full refund (Score:3, Informative)
Why is it that you think class action lawsuits are something found all over the world? Why is it you think that the world follow the US judicial system? Are you really so totally uninformed about the world outside your own country?
No but it seems you are. Here's a nice "fuck you" list for the ignorant US-basher.
Austria
The Austrian Code of Civil Procedure (Zivilprozessordnung â" ZPO) does not provide for a special proceeding for complex class action litigation.
Canada
Provincial laws in Canada allow class actions. All provinces permit plaintiff classes and some permit defendant classes. Quebec was the first province to enact U.S.-style class proceedings legislation in 1978. Ontario was next with the Class Proceedings Act, 1992. As of 2008, 9 of 10 provinces have enacted comprehensive class actions legislation.
France
Under French law, an association can represent the collective interests of consumers; however, each claimant must be individually named in the lawsuit.
Germany
On November 1, 2005, Germany enacted the âoeAct on Model Case Proceedings in Disputes under Capital Markets Law (Capital Markets Model Case Act)â allowing sample proceedings to be brought before the courts in litigation arising from mass capital markets transactions.
Italy
Italy has class action legislation now. Consumer associations can file claims on behalf of groups of consumers to obtain judicial orders against corporations that cause injury or damage to consumers.
India
In India class action lawsuits are called Public interest litigation and can be initiated by individuals or groups of individuals.
Netherlands
Dutch law allows collective actions brought by associations on behalf of injured parties seeking a judicial declaration that the company is liable for the damage it has caused.
Spain
Spanish law allows nominated consumer associations to take action to protect the interests of consumers. A number of groups already have the power to bring collective or class actions: certain consumer associations, bodies legally constituted to defend the âcollective interestâ(TM) and groups of injured parties.
Re:Full refund (Score:4, Informative)
By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept the terms, you do not have the right to use the software. Instead, contact the manufacturer or installer to get information on how you get a refund for the purchase or credit nota.
This can interpreted as giving the user the right to return Windows, without returning the entire computer. Similar cases have been taken to court in Italy and France (against HP and Acer, respectively), where both vendors were ordered to pay a refund for Windows.
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What happens when you click "No, I do not agree (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Whole product... (Score:3, Informative)
heh, so he never tried to contact microsoft or the microsoft affiliate? This is gonna be a short case.
I think the "microsoft affiliate" is Lenovo, which he did contact prior to suing them.
Re:Lenovo needs reality check (Score:3, Informative)
If you don't want to provide Microsoft refunds, do not sell a computer that contains a EULA saying you will provide refunds if the EULA is unacceptable.
ICBW, but the last time I checked it just said "Contact your OEM for a refund". Didn't say anything about how the OEM is obliged to offer one.