Utah Mulls a Database of Bar Customers 623
sundancing alerts us to a political dustup in the state of Utah, which doesn't have bars like the rest of the country does. Instead, "private clubs" require you to fill out an application and pay a fee if you want to have a drink outside the home. While there is pressure to reform this arrangement — one argument is that it's bad for tourism — the head of the state senate recently floated a proposal to create a database of every bar patron's visits. Now Utah's governor has called that idea "almost Orwellian," adding that "it's very difficult to legislate adulthood," and its supporters seem to be backing off. The idea of requiring bar patrons to swipe their drivers licenses as proof of age is still on the table, though.
Ob (Score:5, Funny)
Phelps poll (Score:5, Interesting)
I saw an amusing poll on ESPN about Michael Phelps, who recently admitted to using pot.
Across the country about 75%-90% said they thought no less of the best swimmer in the world for using a recreational drug.
Except in Utah where almost 50% said they thought less of him. They are very detached from the mainstream.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought less of him. But just for being stupid enough to let his picture get taken with a drug when he has tens of millions of endorsements that could go down the drain. Crap, if I had that much money in endorsements just for being the best at moving my arms back and forth really fast (oversimplification, but the point is that it is not a real social benefit to be able to swim fast), I sure as hell wouldn't do anything to risk it.
So while smoking a joint doesn't shock me, his stupidity does. He went through this before with a DUI, he should be smarter than that.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought less of him. But just for being stupid enough to let his picture get taken with a drug
Well, that was pretty stupid of him but in the day and age of the camera phone it's pretty hard to avoid having your picture taken. I think a lot less of the dipshit that took the picture and opted to give/sell it to a tabloid. Anybody with a half a brain could realize the likely outcome of that to a person like Phelps. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I wouldn't sell such a picture if I knew it was likely to ruin someones life/career.
not a real social benefit to be able to swim fast
Eh, it's a benefit to society in that it provides entertainment which provides rest and relaxation.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes.
I too would like the identity of the "squealer" to be exposed.
It's at least as valid a news story as printing the photo was.
It has the feel of a real pipsqueak seeking disproportionate revenge.
Hey, isn't that the same psychology that those Virgina Tech/Columbine etc.
tragedies have in common?
Maybe the school where this photo was taken really DOES need to investigate.
It's his JOB! (Score:3)
So you are saying that Phelps has less than half a brain? When he decided to become a professional athlete, whose income depends on (a) his athletic performance and (b) his public image, he should have been aware that his public life is exactly that, public.
When someone's career is selling an image, his life should be what the image portrays, or he would be a fraud.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Gandhi was fighting against laws made in England that were imposed on people in India. King was fighting for a people whose ancestors were forcefully taken from their land to be enslaved in another continent. Against which laws is Phelps fighting?
The alternative to obeying laws is the law of the jungle, the strongest will prevail.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Actually, with global warming causing icecaps to melt and whatnot, his crazy swimming abilities might actually have an evolutionary benefit! I, for one, welcome our half-fish super-fast-swimming overlords.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Funny)
I, for one, welcome our half-fish super-fast-swimming overlords.
Kevin Costner?
Re:Phelps poll (Score:4, Funny)
I, for one, welcome our STONED half-fish super-fast-swimming overlords.
There, fixed that for you.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
You say he was stupid to get a picture taken while holding a joint, but really what is stupider ?
A. Smoking marijuana recreationally with friends, on private time ?
B. Believing that a photo of a harmless victimless act represents a big heinous crime punishable by shame and shunning ?
If you're desperate to fight drugs, at least fight the invariably evil ones like backyard meth and crack. Those drugs actually destroy people, but with pot, the drug itself is mostly harmless, it's the naysayers who are the ones destroying lives with their near-religious bigotry.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Funny)
To be a nitpicker, this is an odd way to begin a sentence that is entirely being a nitpicker.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think much less of Michael Phelps for apologizing. He did absolutely nothing wrong.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
I think much less of Michael Phelps for apologizing. He did absolutely nothing wrong.
You'd suck it up and apologize too if your livelihood was on the line....
Re:Phelps poll (Score:4, Insightful)
His livelihood is most certainly not on the line. He already has millions, and is either a graduate of or close to a degree at Michigan. Even if he quit swimming and dropped all his endorsements, starting a "normal" life at 23 with that backing you up is a recipe to live *extremely* well.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
What he really should do is grow a pair, and use his position as an incredible athlete to speak out against the persecution of pot smokers.
His performance in Beijing totally DESTROYS all the standard "potheads are losers who will never amount to anything" line of bullshit that we have been spoonfed for years.
He should also tell Kellogg's cereal to go fuck themselves, and seek sponsorship deals from EZ-Wider and Dominos Pizza. :)
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully Obama follows through with his view that "we need to...decriminalize our marijuana laws". While I'm not a user I'm all for clearing our jails/prisons from harmless offenders, or saving billions from a failed 'drug war'.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Pot uses isn't against the rules of the swimming organization. SO I don't know if he was tested.
Doesn't matter becasue the image that is shoved down our throats is that pot smokers are lazy do nothings. Considering the amount of training it takes to become a world class athlete it blows that picture away.
You're All Detached from the Mainstream (Score:3, Interesting)
I've yet to come across any youthful geek-goth-emo-indy-gamer-progressive-wirehead-gearhead whatever who views him or herself as "the mainstream." Everybody is just too cool for the room, proud to be part of that hip 10% who think or do something a different way. To criticize the people of Utah for being "detached from the mainstream" is the height of hypocrisy.
In fact, in a nation of talkers, nobody walks the walk like the Utah folk. You may not agree with the way they live their lives -- in fact, that'
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Include me in. I too am part of the 90% that thinks they are in the top 10%.
The rest of you losers are in the 10% that knows they are in the bottom 90%.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Who are you to care about what someone else does in their own privacy? The world needs a lot more MYOB and STFU....if we each worried more about how we lived our own lives, and less about how others lived theirs, it would be a lot better place.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
No, the claim is based on membership records. If people do not ask for their names to be removed from church records, they are still considered LDS, even if they don't go to church. There's nothing "showy" about that. It's a bit like being an American expatriate who retains U.S. citizenship. So not all of the 70% are active, but they are still members.
Re: (Score:2)
Sloppy Spelling and witting.
moron without the o = morn
that rn combination with bad handwritting or right font look like a rn - m so when they rewrote it the following happened
M O R (then he looses focus and then focuses on the letter) M (focus returns) N
so we get Mormn
Then someone points out hey you lost a vowel (well you don't know wich one so lets choose the first)
Morman
There you go.
Re:Ob (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not? Why should we not make fun of religion?
Want to do anything, anything at all and not get busted? Say: my religion says I must do it...
It is a "get out of jail" card. If we keep respecting religion as sacred and true, they will never mend.
We should respect people. People beliefs are fair game, though.
-1 Troll ... ;)
Re:Ob (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Ob (Score:5, Insightful)
circumcised is way better .... I'm glad it happened back when I can't remember it.
So how do you know it's better? The vast majority of men who have been circumcised later in life (late enough to have experienced "pleasures of the flesh" before and after) say that it was way better before. (However, even that's not a conclusive argument, since perhaps the process affects you differently later in life.)
The ladies love it!
And THAT depends where you live... in this part of the world, it'd make most girls say something like, "That looks so weird! I didn't know you were Jewish..." (most people in Europe are not circumcised unless they're Jewish)
And, to reply to your first statement last:
Dude you should try it some time
Being an irreversible process, I'd rather not chance it...
Re:Ob (Score:4, Interesting)
bad title (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't the story more accurately be titled "Utah stops mulling a database of bar customers"?
Holy moly... (Score:2, Interesting)
*boggles*
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Informative)
There are conventional bars in Utah, or at least there are things that look a lot like bars, they just are technically clubs and require you to fill out a form and pay a small "membership fee" to get a drink.
I don't know whether, like Virginia, they require the bar to also serve food, but I would bet that they do, and the ones that I went to had restaurants attached. (In the 1960's, by the way, bars in Fairfax, Virginia, also required, or at least were supposed to require, membership.)
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Interesting)
This is only true if either A) the "club" is otherwise totally empty, or B) you are such a complete and total douchebag that nobody would want you to come into the bar. The reason is because there is a provision in this stupid law that allows any club member to sponsor you as a guest, apparently for free. And while I am not a member of any such clubs so I don't know exactly how small the "membership fee" is, I am told that at many such clubs the fee is laughably small. The more exclusive ones (the fun clubs in Park City, for example) charge a higher fee because they can.
I live in Utah, and while I am not a frequent bar patron, I do go on occasion. The first time I went out to a bar after moving here, I was shocked to find out that I would not be allowed to enter without a membership or being sponsored by a member. Then the door girl explained that you just ask anybody to sponsor you, and they will. She asked the next guy in for me. "Hey, will you sponsor this guy?" He replied, yeah sure, like it was an everyday thing.
There are social benefits to this. Since frequent bar patrons have an incentive to become members of their favorite "club", the clubs seem to gravitate a certain type of person far more than in other places I have lived or visited. In other words, the cool clubs really are cool, and are often completely lacking in douchebags which is a welcome change from just about anywhere else in the world.
I may be wrong on this, but I believe if there is an event at the club on any given night, the membership requirement is waived. The dance clubs capitalize on this by hosting "events" every night of the week with a cover charge, so they essentially circumvent the law.
It's unfortunate that the Utah state legislosers play such a tremendous role in perpetuating oddball stereotypes about this state. In reality, most Mormons are very nice people, and most non-Mormon Utahns, in their ever-increasing numbers, do a great job of being non-Mormons.
hardly the only ones, there (Score:3, Insightful)
The biggest proponents of Yes-on-8, both by on-the-ground activism of bishops and priests, and by actual yes votes, were the Catholics, and I don't see anyone scapegoating them. Probably because they're an important voting bloc so you have to be nice to them, while the Mormons are a small enough minority that they're a useful scapegoat.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Interesting)
Social gatherings in any place outside homes and bars (say, an art show) is limited to ONE glass of Wine per person, only 3x a year. We have something called the gallery stroll (through the downtown art galleries) and they cannot serve alcohol other than those 3x a year.
Bars and clubs also MUST buy liquor from the state, too. So bars cannot get a volume discount from say, jack daniels, and they pay the same price that any local pays for alcohol, with the high taxes and all.
Then, we have the limit on the amount of alcohol in a drink. you can only have 1 oz of hard liquor in a drink, mixed with 1.5 oz of non-alcoholic flavoring. As far as I know (I don't go out to drink here, it's too expensive/hard) you cannot mix alcohol types, so essentially, no Long Island Ice Teas or any other multiple spirit drinks.
The most frustrating thing about the database was reported in the news as "The Latter day saints church has no problem with changing the laws to make a database". That's not news! It's an incidental, not the reason, but it's well known that state legislators always meet with Church leaders before making changes like this.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, many states have the state owned liquor distributors. COSTCO is currently suing the states of Washington and Oregon over it. California does not have such a law, and it was awesome to see half gallons of Smirnoff for much less than what a 5th of smirnoff costs in Oregon. Good luck in Oregon trying to find liquor after 9pm! Or on a Sunday!
Re: (Score:2)
They also limit the alcohol content of beer below a certain percentage. It's a rather strange state.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Informative)
They also limit the alcohol content of beer below a certain percentage. It's a rather strange state.
That's not actually that uncommon. New York (hardly a red state full of religious types) does something similiar. New York also prohibits grocery stores from selling wine/spirits (they can sell beer though) and liquor stores from selling beer (they sell wine/spirits).
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Informative)
Hell, that's nothing. In Pennsylvania you cannot buy ANY form of alcoholic beverage in a grocery store, drug store, or convenience store. ALL non malt-based liquor (vodka, whiskey, etc) is sold exclusively at state-owned liquor stores. All malt-based liquor (beer, wine coolers, etc) must be purchased at a beverage distributor - though if you just want a six pack or a 40, you can get them at the local deli, but NOT a convenience store, a bit of an odd exception.
The PA liquor stores do swipe your ID through a reader if they choose to card you (the clerks are trained to use their best judgement - I used to be one in college), and I've seen a few Philadelphia-area bars do the same.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Insightful)
New York (hardly a red state full of religious types) does something similar.
I lived in upstate NY for 6 long years and I can attest to the fact that, apart from NYC, it is basically a red state full of religious types.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
They also limit the alcohol content of beer below a certain percentage. It's a rather strange state.
This is the reason that many beers (such as Guinness) made for US export is capped at 4% abv. It's the maximum potency for the most restrictive of state laws (I believe Fl. to be the same).
I'll see your 4% Florida, and raise you 3.2% Kansas!
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Holy moly... (Score:4, Funny)
To eat casseroles, stare at their own feed, and mumble about the weather?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Informative)
Utahn here. Here is a brief synopsis of what you can expect about drinking in Utah.
Taverns are bars that sell beer only. They do not require memberships, can only sell 3.2% alcohol content beer. Food is not required to be served. Pitchers of beer must be shared between at least two people.
Private Clubs are bars that can sell stronger beer and spirits. A membership is required, or to be the guest of a member. In practice many places don't pay a lot of attention to this requirement. Many offer a temporary membership for around $5. The average price for a year membership is $12. Only one mixed drink per person at a time can be served. Pitchers of beer must be shared between at least two people.
Restaurants. If a restaurant has a liquor license they can sell spirits and beer without requiring memberships. However, you have to purchase food at the same time. Some restaurants only have a tavern license and only offer beer pr wine.
Liquor stores are a state run monopoly. You have to go to the state package store in order to purchase wine, beer stronger than 3.2% or spirits. This is the only way to purchase these products.
I wrote this article years ago regarding drinking in Utah. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A279731 [bbc.co.uk]
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Insightful)
<= 3.2% ABV is NOT beer.
Wait... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
"Greatest Snow On Earth" and they're right.
I'd gladly pay double (and generally do!) to ski Deer Valley than most crowded places in Colorado.
I love the LDSers -- they run a clean operation and they don't let their religion get in the way of fun for tourists (I've NEVER had a problem drinking in Park City or SLC).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Bad for what tourism? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
I honestly don't mean this as a troll, but seriously, how much non-Mormon tourism is there in Utah?
There's Antelope Island, and actually as a non-Mormon I thoroughly enjoyed the architecture, the cleanness and the visitor centre tour of Salt Lake City. Oh, and they have a world-class Ski resort! And coming from the UK seeing a city centre at night that is not full of drunken yobs puking in the gutter was a novelty.
I do agree though, nine out of ten visitors seemed to be Mormons.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
In Utah there are lots of National Parks there (Zion, Bryce Canyon, Canyonlands, Arches, Capitol Reef), National Monuments, and a National Recreation Area. Between them, they draw in something over five million visitors per year, IIRC. All are big with hikers and nature enthusiasts. Canyonlands and Grand Staircase-Escalante are also big with the mountain biking and off-road vehicle crowd.
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I honestly don't mean this as a troll, but seriously, how much non-Mormon tourism is there in Utah?
Apparently a lot of people like to strap long slats to their feet and then hurtle down snow covered mountains at high speeds. Some say Utah is a good place to do this.
Also, every January thousands of black-clad posers come and put on some kind of film festival. Something about dancing on the sun.
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This is one thing I won't do (Score:2)
Where I live they like to only license them as 'private clubs' and often need you to 'join' by letting them swipe your driver's license. I walk out when they ask for that. I walk out if they want my driver's license and credit card to open a tab. I walk out if I have to do anything more than someone sitting at a restaurant who has a couple of beers with dinner. So far, I've not suffered for it. But if anyone from Utah is listening, I won't visit Utah if I have to become a club member to have a drink at the
Religion, not adulthood (Score:4, Insightful)
This is not about legislating adulthood, it is about legislating religion. There is a difference.
Out of curiosity (Score:2, Interesting)
I checked out a database on violent crime broken down by state. Utah's overall violent crime rate is less than half that of the nation, and murder rate 1/3 of that of the nation as a whole.
So while I don't like the "big brother" mentality, the moral code does have concrete benefits.
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
So while I don't like the "big brother" mentality, the moral code does have concrete benefits.
Living in a sparsely populated large western state tends to have that effect as well. No need to be a Mormon or view alcohol as 'sinful'.
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:5, Insightful)
Nevada is less dense population wise yet has twice the murder rate of the nation and violent crime as well.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s0297.pdf [census.gov]
(And in its infinite wisdom, Slashdot is now making me wait at least five minutes between posts. in my prior experience, this will become ten and then fifteen. It happens as soon as I get one downmod. I love Slashdot where the GNAA can post as much as they want, but with positive karma, I get effectively censored.)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Nevada is only less-dense population-wise when you are looking at everything from a statewide level. Nevada is essentially one very densely populated urban area, surrounded by abandoned desert. I'm sure Utah's population isn't evenly spread out either, but this sort of crime-per capita statistic is really only valuable if you break it down by county or township.
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean this site? [disastercenter.com] Overall, murders are very rare.
USA: 5/100,000 people
Utah: 2/100,000 people
Iowa: 1/100,000 people
Iowa has more people than Utah and doesn't have such draconian moral restrictions. In fact, they're much more liberal than Utah. Does that mean liberalism has concrete benefits in terms of murder rates?
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:5, Funny)
Hmm. I was curious too. From the most recent data I could find :
Murder rate, 2007, Utah, per 100,000 : 2.2
Murder rate, 2004, Germany, per 100,000 : 0.98
Murder rate, 2002, Saudi Arabia, per 100,000 : 0.92
So, clearly Utah is either too religious, or not religious enough. Or something.
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:4, Funny)
The legislated morality may have very little to do with the crime rate. I mean, it's not a coincidence that Utah's overall violent crime rate is low- AND there's a ton of salt in their lake!
Combine with RealID and... (Score:5, Interesting)
Say what?!?!?
Ok...this is really getting scary. Why should I have to swipe my drivers license (remenber, it was given as proof of driving certification, tax..etc) to get a drink? And why the hell should anyone know when I go to a bar (or anywhere else for that matter)?
Now...I'm thinking...if the RealID thing does finally come to fruition, well now...this national database would have some good data to throw in it. Let's cut benefits on (possibly coming) your national healthcare. Since you drink, and are exposed to smoke (well, you still can at most bars I go to)...you are a health risk and we the govt. won't pay as much for you. Or even with private insurance, I'm sure they'll get ahold of this sooner or later.
Amd..once the populace accepts swiping for bar entry...well, I'm sure they won't mind swiping for entry into drug stores, that would help gather your meds usage. How about grocery store for purchases, that way we can track your unhealthy eating habits.
And then of course...no need for EZPass...your nifty new drivers license will have RFID...so, that will make it easier for you....we can track your travels.
Ok, some of this sound far fetched? It might not be....the govt. lawnakers start small enough, but, pretty much every law passed has been expanded or abused.
In discussions yesterday, I recalled that when they first started passing seatbelt laws, they stated emphatically that the cops could NOT pull you over for not wearing one, but, if they pulled you over for something else, like running a stop sign, and saw you weren't wearing one....they could cite you.
Well, a few years later, once that was agreeable....they changed it, to being able to pull you over if they see you without one.
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Now...I'm thinking...if the RealID thing does finally come to fruition, well now...this national database would have some good data to throw in it. Let's cut benefits on (possibly coming) your national healthcare. Since you drink, and are exposed to smoke (well, you still can at most bars I go to)...you are a health risk and we the govt. won't pay as much for you.
Go ahead and laugh but this is one of the reasons that I'm leery of UHC. You just know that some jackass is going to use it to expand the war on vice. They started with cigarettes and alcohol -- next it will be soda [nydailynews.com] or fast food. Sure am glad that we have a nanny state to fret about us though -- otherwise we could get hurt.
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They started with cigarettes and alcohol -- next it will be soda or fast food.
Amen. I already hear folks using the argument that people with bad diets harm them by increasing emergency room visits that they have to pay for. This sort of reasoning will only get worse when we are paying for healthcare directly. I'm sorry liberals, but I don't want your charity if you think it entitles you to dictate the way I live my life.
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I'm sorry liberals, but I don't want your charity if you think it entitles you to dictate the way I live my life.
...
Liberalism: a political ideology that seeks to maximize individual liberties.
If they are telling you what to do, they ain't liberal.
Re:Combine with RealID and... (Score:5, Insightful)
How is swiping your license different than them carding you?
The bouncer at the door has better things to do than memorize every license that he comes across. The computer has nothing better to do.
A serious question... (Score:2)
Some Texas cities already have this (Score:5, Informative)
In Texas, cities can decide to be wet or dry. In a "dry" city, a restaurant that serves alcohol must be a "private club." It's not so much a "private club" in that there are significant membership requirements, anyone can join if they're of age and there's no membership fee or ongoing responsibilities. I'm sure it's just another way for the city to tax the restaurant - how much does it cost to get a "private club" permit?
So if you're eating out and you want to have a beer, you must present a club membership card. Most restaurants have signed up with a company called Unicard. If you sign up at one Unicard restaurant...er..."private club" then you are automatically a member everywhere that takes Unicard. Years ago you actually got a separate membership card. Now it's associated with your driver's license number. When I was waiting tables the computer would refuse to let me input a drink order until I swiped a customer's Unicard (or driver's license). I'm sure that the computer was checking with the Unicard database to make sure that the person was actually a member. Was it tracking them? I have no idea. Probably so, in case the restaurant needed to look back and prove that a certain customer was in fact a member of the club when they bought that drink. Aside from the inherent lawsuit risks of serving alcohol, the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission is known for being ruthless and handing down VERY expensive fines to the restaurant and the waiter for any infraction.
A significant difference here is that Unicard is a private company, not a government entity. I'm sure they'll be quick to share their database if asked by a court, especially if it involves "terrists" or kiddie porn.
Disclaimer: IANAW (any more). I haven't waited tables for several years and I rarely drink when I'm out. Things may be different now.
Solutions (Score:5, Insightful)
Got an RFID tag in your drivers license? Throw it in the microwave for 2 seconds.
Got a magstripe on your drivers license? Rub it with a magnet a few times.
Got a barcode on your drivers license? Use a little fine grit sandpaper on a few blocks.
Oh, that's funny, I wonder why your reader can't read my license. Must not be working right.
Re:Solutions (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If smart card chips (not RFIDs, per se) were less reliable that might work. The reality is that they're highly reliable and durable, so just about the only way to make one cease functioning is to deliberately destroy it.
That being the case, if they decide to require chip-based age verification, the law will just state that allowing an individual to drink in a bar without having electronically-verified his age is an infraction -- one that might result in withdrawal of the establishment's liquor license.
It'll never happen (Score:3, Informative)
I live in Utah and these sorts of rumblings are a mainstay. They never pass because they're stupid, and everyone knows they're stupid, but they're a way for pols to get their name in the paper in a way they think will appeal to their constituency.
In this case, though, it appears to be backfiring. Even Waddoups' heavily-LDS district is largely rolling their eyes at this one. It probably won't damage him, though.
I DO, however, expect that if Utah deploys REAL ID driver's licenses -- the kind with chips in them -- that they'll start to require electronic age verification just because it's so much harder to forge than a driver's license. Assuming no databases are built, that's a reasonable approach to limiting under-age drinking.
Ever bought a drink in Utah? (Score:4, Interesting)
I have, and it's a puzzling experience. I was there on IT business for a week, about a year before they hosted the Olympics.
In the area around Park City, you didn't need to join the "private club." At a casual Italian place, we all wanted to order a beer. You couldn't say to the server, "What do you have on tap?" She replied by bringing a beer menu because it wasn't appropriate (perhaps illegal?) for her to actually discuss the alcoholic beverages with us.
We did the "private club" thing at a very good steakhouse in Salt Lake City. I believe it was $10 for the "membership." If you ordered a mixed drink--any mixed drink--the server automatically said, "Would you like a sidecar with that?" (A sidecar being an additional measured shot of whatever booze was involved.) Martinis arrived in glasses only 3/4 full because the hooch was so precisely measured.
The freakish thing about it was that, because it was a "private club," it was perfectly OK to smoke anywhere--right at the table, right next to a table that might or might not have been hosting smokers. No problem. So the other big Mormon no-no, tobacco, is apparently not quite as regulated.
My observation over the week were that the Mormons among our hosts had no problems at all with our ordering a drink, beer, or wine at dinner. The company hosted us at a very nice private dinner party on our last evening, and alcohol was readily available. I chose not to drink that evening to conform to their sensibilities, then screwed up by ordering an iced tea.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
>then screwed up by ordering an iced tea.
So very complicated.
Iced tea isn't okay because it's still tea. But Doctrine & Covenants 89:9 specifically says "And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly." Cold tea isn't listed: it's been included by association with hot tea. But at the same time, Doctrine & Covenants 89:12 says "Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly"
Evolution in Action (Score:3, Interesting)
From a Canadian viewpoint, one of the fascinating things about the U.S. is that, in many ways, it's composed of a few dozen political experiments, all going on at once. Each succeeds to the extent that people choose to live in a particular state and thrive there.
Utah is not New York. They could be on different planets, and yet they are both populated by people who call themselves Americans. The opportunities for comparative anthropology are immense.
Ah...Utah (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:5, Interesting)
Utah still has(Had) a firing squad as method of execution until not long ago IIRC
What's wrong with that? If you believe in the death penalty then I don't see firing squads as being any worse than lethal injection. Hell, I'd actually prefer the firing squad myself -- I'm afraid of needles. If you don't believe in the death penalty then it seems that you shouldn't be limiting your criticism to Utah.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I know it's not manly and tough but...
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
Civilized societies have long moved towards executions that are as respectful of life as possible, as opposed to some societies which still publicly rape and stone to death.
It's the same idea about those who abuse animals end up abusing humans, and lethal injection, which is very nonviolent, is one of the better ways to separate the death penalty from murder.
actually (Score:4, Interesting)
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
There's a fair bit of debate in this point, leading to a Supreme Court case. Lethal Injection Potentially Not Painless [newscientist.com]
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:5, Interesting)
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
Says who? If you believe the anti-death penalty crowd it's horrible agonizing pain. I don't really know who to believe as every side has an agenda and we can't exactly ask the people who were executed what it was like. I suspect the reality is probably somewhere in the middle of the 'no pain' and 'worse than being burned alive' arguments.
I know it's not manly and tough but...
*shrug*, for me at least it doesn't have anything to do with that. I'd honestly rather be shot than strapped to a table and killed with a needle. A head shot would be even better and probably painless (the brain is destroyed faster than the pain receptors can fire) but I'd still take the shots to the heart over the needle. To each their own I guess....
Civilized societies have long moved towards executions that are as respectful of life as possible, as opposed to some societies which still publicly rape and stone to death.
Raping and/or stoning would be cruel and unusual punishment. Being shot isn't, IMHO.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
In the present state, firing squad is probably actually more humane, in terms of intensity and duration of suffering. It is a lot messier, so it looks more
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The three drug cocktail used in executions can be abused, horrifyingly, by the person administering it to cause terrible suffering. Some executions take an hour or two to complete. There certainly exist sickos who would just love to inflict this kind of horror; and then there also exists others I'd still call sickos who think engaging in an hour or two of horrible torture is something that the convicted justly deserves.
Obviously I'm not accusing all executioners of being monsters. But I see no reason for
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:4, Interesting)
Because animals are usually put down with a massive overdose of pentobarbital, which effectively turns their brain off. I had to have one of our cats put down last year - she was unconscious before the vet had completed the injection and dead less than 15 seconds later, with no signs of any discomfort.
This business of using a cocktail of drugs to paralyze and ultimately stop the heart of the condemned is just ridiculous. I don't know that pentobarbital overdose in humans works the same way as it does in animals, but there's got to be a better way. It's not pretty, but frankly a gunshot to the back of the head seems a lot more humane than most execution methods used in the US today.
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:5, Interesting)
Societies that have an executioner who takes them into a room where no one can see and makes the person disappear are the barbaric ones, while those societies where the citizens stone the person to death are the civilized ones. It has nothing to do with the pain suffered by the dying, and everything to do with the pain suffered by the living.
Killing people doesn't make you manly and tough. But hiring someone else to do it for you does makes you cowardly and small.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Because the law can never be wrong, right?
I've never understood the argument that spending the rest of your life in prison for a crime you didn't commit is any better than being killed for a crime you didn't commit. Both are horrible and we need to take steps to ensure that they don't happen -- but I don't buy "the law isn't perfect" as a justification for eliminating the death penalty.
I've been charged with a crime I didn't commit. Mind you it wasn't a capital offense but it was a felony. The system prevailed for me when a grand jury of my pee
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Permanently locking someone up is equally effective as killing them
Until they kill another inmate or corrections officer. Or escape. Or get let out by some flower child judge that feels bad for them.
costs less
So justice is too expensive now?
which in the end, is why we would be sinking to the level of the criminal.
We aren't sinking to the level of the criminal because it's accepted that the state has the power to deprive individuals of life, liberty or process after according them due process of law. We have given the state a monopoly on the use of force in these situations. If you accept that we aren't sinking to the level of kidnappers by locking u
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:5, Interesting)
STAHL: If someone's in custody, as in Abu Ghraib, and they are brutalized, by a law enforcement person - if you listen to the expression "cruel and unusual punishment," doesn't that apply?
SCALIA: No. To the contrary. You think - Has anybody ever referred to torture as punishment? I don't think so.
STAHL: Well I think if you're in custody, and you have a policeman who's taken you into custody-
SCALIA: And you say he's punishing you? What's he punishing you for? - When he's hurting you in order to get information from you, you wouldn't say he's punishing you. What is he punishing you for?"
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:5, Funny)
I'm no fan of needles, but I'm also afraid of bullets.
Oh, and death itself.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell, I'd actually prefer the firing squad myself -- I'm afraid of needles.
But you're not afraid of a volley of bullets flying towards you?
Re:fp (Score:5, Funny)
I like shaved pussy.
I believe Utah requires a permit for that too.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Please don't talk about what Orwellian means when you clearly have never read any of his books. To say that having no bars is Orwellian is to dilute the word from it's true meaning.
In 1984, every movement of every citizen is tracked, not just in public but even in their own home. Children are bribed into spying on and turning in their parents. People are tortured for the slightest sign of dissent. Records of the past are continuously 'corrected' at the whim of the government. The nation is at constant
Re:Mormons (Score:5, Informative)
Um - you're a little late there. "Mormons" are in pretty much every country on Earth. In the US, there are 6 million LDS church members - so one out of 50 people in the US is a "Mormon". Utah has 1.5 million LDS church members in it - so excluding Utah it is 1 out of 60.
There are 7 million members in the rest of the world - so there are actually more "Mormons" that live outside the United States than that live inside. The church is growing at 3% per year - doubling every 15 years or so.
For fun facts, the country of Tonga is 46% Mormon. The country of Samoa is 36%. Utah is 72%. Hawaii is 5%.
What rock have you been under?