Anti-Piracy Firm Offering ISPs Money For Outing File-Sharers 132
mytrip points out news that an anti-piracy firm called Nexicon has been offering financial incentives to ISPs in exchange for having the ISPs police their own networks for copyright infringement. Nexicon would offer their services (for a fee) to help the ISPs pinpoint users who are illegally sharing files, and then give the users an option to "settle" through their "Get Amnesty" website. The revenue generated by such settlements would then be shared with the ISPs. Jerry Scroggin, owner of a smaller ISP in Louisiana, is still skeptical, saying, "I would still wind up losing customers. I would also have to pay Nexicon for this ... I have to survive in this economy but I don't have the big marketing dollars that bigger ISPs have. I have to fund 401(K)s and find ways not to lay off people. Giving free rein to the RIAA is not part of my business model."
Huh, madness (Score:5, Interesting)
A small ISP could fake the logs and sell out some of their customers.
Re:Huh, madness (Score:4, Funny)
I've got a few customers I wish I could do that to.
Unfortunately, that is probably a crime. Especially since I'm not an ISP, so I'd have to crack their wireless router.
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Hmm... let's see... At worst you'd be in for unjustified accusation (or whatever the correct English term is for it when you accuse someone of a crime knowing he didn't do it)... or no, that would be that company you sold the logs to.
If you wanna make money as an ISP, send them some bogus logs. Some of your customers will pay because they think they got caught, some will countersue that company, some will just drop it. It's akin to extortion by proxy, only that you didn't tell your proxy to act on your beha
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right here:
"If you wanna make money as an ISP, send them some bogus logs."
as a law school drop-out (middle of a messy divorce) i see claims of libel, slander, falsification of records, and deception....
Re:Huh, madness (Score:4, Insightful)
An ISP log isn't going to be the final answer. Someone, somewhere is going to be looking at computer hard drives, CDs, DVDd, etc. If they do not find any infringing materials there is no evidence and the matter drops.
Now I would imagine if the ISP faked up some logs to provide material for the examination of cmoputers and a lot of it turned out to be bogus you would have the ISP getting sued by both ends of this. Because examining the computers (by a qualified forensic examiner) isn't cheap and because losing your computer for a couple of weeks isn't much fun either. So I would say there are substantial risks to faking logs and the end result is that it doesn't go anywhere. No settlements. Because there is no legal action and no possibility of legal action.
Now if someone wants to go from logs to making a settlement offer to the potential offender, that is just stupid. Because you just tipped your hand and the potential offender then can delete everything from their computer, without penalty, because there is no requirement to preserve evidence. So bypassing the "seize the computer" step nets you nothing in the long run.
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Now if someone wants to go from logs to making a settlement offer to the potential offender, that is just stupid.
That is pretty much how ever RIAA case has ever gone.
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Yes, but the issue is moot...
For instance, if you install a demo of a game, and then, instead of ununstalling, you just delete the directory where it is...
Naturally, you keep the computer completly riddled with some resources of the game.
If someone inspects the computer they can say... The game X was installed on this computer. Where is your license for it?
So... yup...
And nope... they can't seize the computer as they like. They are mandated to make a copy of the HD for forensic analysis.
You can thank to FBI
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You have a good point , but it doesn't even have to be a demo :
What if you borrow a game from a friend for a while.After a while , you give it back , and don't play it anymore. The game is still on the computer, though.
Now , they could offcourse check whether you used a no-cd crack for it or not.
And then still , what if i download a game , while actually having bought it already ( so i have a backup incase my cd is scratched) ?
Is a copy really illegal if you have bought the original game ? If so , then are
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Someone, somewhere is going to be looking at computer hard drives, CDs, DVDd, etc. If they do not find any infringing materials there is no evidence and the matter drops.
Not so, my friend. Look at the RIAA's behavior these past few years ... they go after the alleged infringer's hard drive, the hard drives of anyone that the infringer might have known, etc. They've even looked at emails and private documents on said drives, then subpoenaed people they find referenced there. Lack of evidence does not stop the RIAA from ongoing legal harassment because legitimate redress of grievance is not the object.
They don't care if you actually infringed or not, and have said that in
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I've got a few customers I wish I could do that to.
Now you can! [washington.edu]
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Which may also be a crime... or not, depending... ;)
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1 Create an ISP, one with no customers.
2 Fake logs of customers you don't have.
3 Sell out non existent customers.
4 ?????
5 Net loss!
Wait, wasn't this supposed to give money to ISPs?
they pitch an interesting plan (Score:5, Insightful)
"I would still wind up losing customers. I would also have to pay Nexicon for this ...
They do address this on their web page
THE VALUE: GetAmnesty provides content owners with a new revenue stream by collecting settlement fees on their behalf from those who illegally download their copyrighted content. Further, violators are tagged with a complete history of their downloading activities, which is easily translated to create customer profiles for online marketing purposes.
Looks like they intend for the loss of customers to be more than offset by the extortion payments you receive from some of them.
I'm betting NOT. Suing (or extorting, threatening to sue and selling "protection") your customers has never been an effective business model. You'd think they'd have learned that by now.
Re:they pitch an interesting plan (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm betting NOT. Suing (or extorting, threatening to sue and selling "protection") your customers has never been an effective business model. You'd think they'd have learned that by now.
True, but the average customer might never know or figure out that it was the ISP that sold them out.
Re:they pitch an interesting plan (Score:4, Insightful)
The ISP does have a duty to protect the privacy of a customer, I think most people know that it's hard to identify anyone without the ISP coughing up data -- legally or otherwise. Anyway, I don't think that matters. My guess is that the first act of anyone who is accused of file sharing, is to change their ISP, regardless of who found out about them, or sold them out. It only makes sense to do so. Either way, the ISP loses. And rightly so, they should not be giving up data without a solid court warrant to anyone, for any reason.
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The ISP also has a duty under the DMCA Safe Harbor provisions to assist in copyright enforcement. Their responsibility to their customers not to reveal their illegal activities is not so clearly documented.
This pretty much means that a case can be made that if the ISP doesn't assist in enforcement, perhaps even to this level, that they can lose their Safe Harbor provision and suddenly become a party to every enforcement action against their customers.
So I think you have it a little backwards. Now maybe th
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The RIAA loses little to people who use Limewire to download a 128kbps mp3 of a single coyrighted song weeks after its release date. It is possible to utilize private bittorrent trackers to download music in a format that sounds as good the real CD. It would make little sense for the RIAA to target hundreds or thousands of people who downloads a few random, low-quality audio files rather than seeking the few people who download hundreds of perfect-quality albums.
Those who pose a real threat to the RIAA al
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All the encryption in the world won't stop you from getting a DMCA notice. In America, you can sue anyone for any reason. All they need to sue you is an IP address. So if they join a tracker and see your IP address, they'll send your ISP a note.
Most people find it easier to just pay their extortion fee than go to court.
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All the encryption in the world won't stop you from getting a DMCA notice. In America, you can sue anyone for any reason. All they need to sue you is an IP address. So if they join a tracker and see your IP address, they'll send your ISP a note.
Most people find it easier to just pay their extortion fee than go to court.
Well, first off a swarming protocol like Bit Torrent generally isn't the best way to get small files like MP3s and the like. For that, something like a Gnutella client is more appropriate. There's no centralized tracker there: everything is distributed. Secondly, Ray Beckerman has pointed out that all the RIAA lawsuits he's aware of are because people were sharing (i.e. distributing) music files, not downloading them.
Re:they pitch an interesting plan (Score:5, Insightful)
And as they are at that, what differentiates a legal from an illegal download?
Specially as they don't know if I've or not a license to the download or not!
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I think if they see a BitTorrent connection and the content is music or a movie it is pretty much a given that you don't have a license. Maybe you do, so you have a defense. But I'd say it is very much like being caught by the police with a crowbar and a TV after a store was broken into. Sure, you might be completely innocent and you will have plenty of opportunity to prove it. After they arrest you.
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that's sounds exactly like what the RIAA wants folks to think.
So does the MPAA. Every goddamn commercial DVD has that stupid message saying "the FBI investigates criminal copyright infringement", and well they should. However, your copying a DVD and handing it to a friend does not constitute criminal copyright infringement.
Well, not yet. They are trying to criminalize it, and I suspect they'll probably succeed.
Re:they pitch an interesting plan (Score:5, Funny)
"(or extorting, threatening to sue and selling "protection") your customers has never been an effective business model. "
Tell that to the real Mafia.
Re:they pitch an interesting plan (Score:4, Insightful)
I would but they are all in jail.
I mean honestly, organized crime is a much smaller player then it ever used to be. Its hard to compete with the government sanctioned criminals.
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In Utah, all you can get is Qwest or Comcast (or wireless ISPs, which I hear are too laggy for games).
Having a monopoly is great.
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So the ISP can wait for a small piece of the eventual "settlement fees" and go without money in the interim, or instead continue making regular money right now from a continuing customer...
Did the RIAA really think this through?
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Well, at least they're honest about seeing settlement fee as a revenue stream, unlike the **AA. Except, they fail to explain that, after all your customers realize you've been selling them out, you'll be left with no customers to either sell your service to *or* extort settlement fees from.
Well, here's the thing. Not everybody cares about such things, because millions upon millions of broadband users just get mail and do some light browsing. They wouldn't know how to use Gnutella or Bit Torrent if their lives depended upon it.
What is going to happen, if this kind of "service" proves popular amongst ISPs, is collateral damage. Remember, all of this depends upon the ISP maintaining an accurate log of what IP address is assigned to what user account and when. Errors in logs are not uncommon,
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Suing (or extorting, threatening to sue and selling "protection") your customers has never been an effective business model.
Extortion, protection rackets and the like are a pretty successful business model. It's just normally an illegal one.
great business model there jim (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:great business model there jim (Score:5, Insightful)
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Change the first part to "give us something you value" and you have 99% of the world's record labels' standard operating procedure.
This is the only thing they know how to do.
Interestingly... (Score:1, Interesting)
More than losing customers (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides losing customers, if ISPs start policing their networks like that, don't they then give up some of their "safe haven" protections and all that?
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It's call Safe Harbor and it is part of the DMCA. Actually, if they do not cooperate in copyright enforcement they lose Safe Harbor status. The question is do they have to cooperate this much? I don't know and I suspect it will take a federal judge to make that level of a decision. This isn't going to be decided simply or cheaply. Because of that it might take a really long time before it got reviewed in court.
Because who in their right mind is going to want to defend law-breaking customers? And spend
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No, safe harbour applies to "common carriers" they are not a common carrier once they control what can and cant be sent over the network.
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No, safe harbour applies to "common carriers" they are not a common carrier once they control what can and cant be sent over the network.
{sigh} No, you're repeating a common bit of misinformation. ISPs are not common carriers, unless they want to be. They don't, because they do not want the associated regulatory burden, even though it would guarantee them immunity from any criminal acts resulting from the use of their equipment. See, the big telcos are simultaneously phone companies (which have common carrier status) and data services (which received an exemption and are not.) Granted, modern packet-switching technology has blurred the line
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Yes, they are forfeiting the safe harbor of be a "transit" of communications only.
The same happens with DPI, any kind of firewall/filtering of content, and traffic shaping.
Monopoly broadband providers (Score:2, Interesting)
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...Anyone think cable companies would avoid this for ethical reasons??
what are these "ethics" you speak of.
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That's my thinking. Sure, this scheme is probably poison to the small, independent ISP but I can't imagine Comcast and Time Warner don't already have somebody firing up his spreadsheet to do some income stream projections. Seems like a natural win-win-win for all businesses involved. I mean, if somebody can't figure out how to connect Ubuntu to their broadband how are they going to think to research the availability of alternative, small ISPs even if they do exist for any given location?
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Ad a clause to the agreement barring disclosure, and they'll get free money.
No. ISPs have to hire them to spy on their customers, and then they'll allegedly share a fraction of the profits with them. Except that this is coming from the very namesake of "Hollywood Accounting", so the most likely scenario is that they'll get a percentage of zero, which is still zero.
And then this "anti-piracy" firm sells the data gathered from the ISP's customers to online marketing firms (it's in their About page), making yet another profit and letting the ISP take the blame for the privacy breach.
S
making money from illegal activity? (Score:5, Interesting)
Apart from the highly dubious moral position, this sounds like either a protection racket or entrapment, or both.
[1] although it won't ever get to court - they'll hope people will just roll over and pay up. So the legality of this "sting" won't ever be tested.
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FTA...
Nexicon confirms that the files downloaded violate a copyright through its technology...
It also notes that it is policing the newsgroups, my question is on the "downloading" and copyright violation - With P2P when you download, your uploading also although this is not the case for the newsgroups, when you download that is all your doing - this would be more in lines of "stealing" than the copyright violation isn't it? I was under the impression that to violate a given copyright, you need to re-distribute the said material, IE: why the mafiaa goes after P2P and the insane "settlements"...
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First of all, the ISP isn't doing anything illegal merely because a person using that service is. All they are doing is offering the ISP some financial incentive to produce the necessary information to convict the person who was committing copyright infringement.
So, how is this really any different than the already-existing Crimestoppers program, which offers (often substantial) rewards for information leading to conviction of a person for a particular crime?
Sure, copyright infringement isn't on the s
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this sounds like either a protection racket or entrapment, or both.
Protection racket, sure, but entrapment only applies to law enforcement.
But if the extortion fails (Score:2)
if my ISP did this (Score:2, Funny)
Good plan! (Score:2)
Just make sure you get an old lady to drive the bulldozer [washingtonpost.com]. That way, you can get away with it, too.
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Wow, I want to do that!
I have had to babysit Comcast installations on three occasions in three different states (CT, PA, MD). Never have they shown up on time. Talk about terrible service. The first time, the cable guy showed up about 5 hours late, the second time was a no show and had to reschedule (then someone else babysat), and the third time they were 2 hours late. It is extremely frustrating and time-wasting.
Twice they have accidentally cut off my Internet connection their end. The first time they spe
Good News (Score:1, Troll)
This is good news for everyone. Now we can get all kinds of money from these MAFIAA groups to pay to the ISPs for their evidence in all the court cases that will be thrown out on constitutional grounds.
Just listen to Indy bands that have songs with names that include all the words of other, possibly Britney Spears titles. Then sue the MAFIAA for lost wages and aggravation!
Send them E-MAIL (Score:1, Funny)
I really hope they do get rid of Piracy. When pirates are seizing oil tankers, killing crew, and demanding millions from companies things are out of hand. I really feel for the crew of ships off of Somalia. Oh, wait, we are talking about "copyright violations" -- has anyone been hurt or demanded millions by holding a copy of Metalica hostage?
Please send e-mails to this site and request that they do help get rid of true piracy but when talking about their business model, not refer to it as piracy: info@
That pill is poison. (Score:4, Insightful)
Once the ISP's start accepting this money, good bye safe harbor provision. You can't claim to be a common carrier once you've accepted responsibility for policing your content.
Now it's easy--someone with one of your ISP's IP addresses downloaded my copyrighted content? I don't even need to know who they are--I sue the ISP and win.
The potential legal liability an ISP would be signing up for to participate in this is MASSIVE. You're now potential liable for every copyrighted piece of data on your network.
Re:That pill is poison. (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't think you understand how ISPs have DMCA Safe Harbor. They have it because they are required to cooperate with enforcement. If they fail to cooperate, they lose. So assisting in enforcement doesn't hurt them.
Now it is indeed a good question how much cooperation is actually required under the provisions of the DMCA. Clearly, turning over customer information is required, which all ISPs do when properly served. But do they have to go the extra mile as this program does? If I was marketing this program I would certainly spin it that they can cooperate or they can face losing their Safe Harbor status and suddenly become a party to infringement actions brought on their customers.
The idea that the ISP can shield cusomters from legal action has never existed. Any suggetion that the ISP can afford not to cooperate is going to go out the window pretty soon, should this actually work out.
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Actually it may very well hurt them depending on what the ISP does. The ISP can not legally give out any customer info without a court order. A DMCA Takedown notice is not a court order. Providing any customer without a court order is a CPNI violation and hence illegal. All copyright holders provide a link in their Takedown notices implying that the ISP is required to use the form found at that link to provide the copyright holder with the customer's info
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They cooperate by two ways:
a) Take downs when they receive a complaint;
b) Identify users after receiving a court order.
And even in that case, they have the obligation to inform the user.
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Actually, you just need to say good bye to the pervasive Slashdot myth that ISPs have ever been common carriers.
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Who said they were common carriers?
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Exactly the kind of kick the US ISPs need to decide that the world is a evil place and that only websites within the US will be allowed.
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We really need a mod for flat out wrong. This is not insightful as no ISP is considered a common carrier, The correct term for this types of service providers is Enhanced Service Providers (ESP).
"Enhanced service, essentially, is defined as everything else. This is the category of Internet Service Providers. In order to devise a bright line test, the Commission determined that where a service is offered with any level of enhancement, it is generally considered an enhanced service:
Short Term Gains! Sell Out Your Customers! (Score:5, Funny)
They may not be your customers for long, but we will pay your Tuesday for a customer sell-out today!
Ahh, I see (Score:5, Insightful)
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So the RIAA/MPAA's strategy in stopping the lawsuits was simply to outsource that operation to a 3rd party in an attempt to distance themselves from the negative publicity they've been getting. Should anything go wrong, this company will just be cut loose and left to deal with whatever mess they've gotten themselves into, and the cycle will start again with a new company.
Much like the major recording labels' relationship to the RIAA cabal itself.
A little information about Nexicon (Score:5, Informative)
Article about the renaming to Nexicon [bizjournals.com]
Article about their work with Youtube [zdnet.com]
This violates common carrier (Score:3, Informative)
IANAL, but I have worked at an ISP before. ISP have some limited immunity from civil suits because they are a common carrier.
i.e. They're providing transport to another network (the internet) and the information the flows between it is the responsibility of the sender / receiver because they're merely providing the transport. The minute they start to police the network at a content level (like Nexicon suggests) they can potentially be liable for the information passing through their networks because they are now 'aware' of the illegal content and have a responsibility to act.
The cons outweigh the pros for this time of agreement. I dont' expect many ISPs to by into this B.S.
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I'm sure it isaid elsewhere, but ISPs are information services and by that designation have no common carrier status whatsoever. What they do have is Safe Harbor, as defined by the DMCA.
Part of their Safe Harbon immunity requires them to actively respond to takedown request and to cooperate with copyright enforcement. You might be able to read that as requiring them to participate in this sort of program. I know if I was marketing such a program that that is indeed the spin I would put on it.
Then for the
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Actually no it does not require an SP to "cooperate with copyright enforcement." SPs are required to follow very specific steps to meet the requirements of the Safe Harbor provision. It does not i
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WRONG WRONG WRONG
It is a myth that ISPs are common carriers, if they were then the safe harbor provision of the DMCA would be redundant. Please stop spreading this myth and to those who modded you informative please learn the law.
Morals or Pocketbook (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds to me like that ISP in the story has no moral grounding and would screw its customers if the economy didnt suck.
The war is just beginning people. Are you ready?
Wartime! (Score:2)
... As I tied the red scarf around my forehead, and picked up the AK-47*, I looked around and saw my brothers doing the same ...
The war on corporate greed has just begun. Corporate Wars Episode One: The Lawsuit Menace
* AK-47 = xxAA-Knockout Version 47.0
Also, don't forget to read another person's Web Server Wars [slashdot.org] dialogue, rated "5, Funny".
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Personally i think the current backdoor attacks on my freedoms is a serious matter.
We let this stuff slide, we wont even be able to have a private thought without potentially going to detention for reprogramming.
This is like traffic light cameras (Score:1)
Got heartburn? (Score:1)
an anti-piracy firm called Nexicon
I hope the ISP's don't take the Purple Pill.
dns info for nexicon (Score:2, Interesting)
nexiconinc.com. is in Abuse.net Contacts as 0.0.0.1
* "postmaster@nexiconinc.com"
74.220.215.80 is host280.hostmonster.com.
host280.hostmonster.com. is in Abuse.net Contacts as 0.0.0.2
* "postmaster@hostmonster.com"
* "abuse@hostmonster.com"
74.220.215.80 is in Blars Block List as 208.43.232.224
* Hosts spamers web sites
* Hosts spammers email dropboxes
* breakin attempts
* Knowin
my isp gets around the middle man (Score:1)
The most interesting thing on the Get Amnesty site (Score:1)
Lame-O (Score:1)
A Calculation Shows No Value in Rattig for ISPs (Score:2)
Suppose that an ISP wants to cooperate with Nexicon to get their hands on some of the settlement loot. Suppose further that it costs the ISP nothing to implement detection and collect bounties (in actuallity it would cost them something, but assume for this example that it doesn't). The question(s) become (a) how much will Nexicon split with us AND (b) how many monthly ISP subscriber payments is that worth?
The formula for the number of payments to reach an investment goal [oakroadsystems.com] is relevant here OR
N = log(1+iF/P)
A third revelation about Nexicon (Score:2)
Solution (Score:2)
1. Move To Canada and buy some blank cdr's to pay your share of the recordable media levy
2. Rename your download folder to "Paying recordable media levies lets me download music for free"
3. Rename your publicly viewable storage folder to "Private Property. Do not download. Downloading is trespassing"
4. ??????????????
5. Profit!
Blame Canada!!
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Waste of effort (Score:2)
With users like this who will keep paying no matter how much the ISP's ramp up the costs, what possible incentive would the ISP's have for losi
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Well, if you have a near-monopoly on broadband you can persecute filesharers so that you are left with the customers who pay just as much per month as the filesharers, but who use very little bandwidth. You might _never_ need to upgrade your infrastrucure.
What's it got to do with anti paracy (Score:1)
I think its great that there are companies formed to take on piracy, but I'd say in general it is a job for national navies rather than private enterprise.
Anyway why are they getting distracted by issues about copyright infringement when there are murdering pirate to be caught?
Only one good way to deal with this... (Score:2)
...The MOMENT any /.er finds evidence of this happening, post it here on /.
Next, scream it at the top of your online lungs. Direct the screams at the CUSTOMERS of the ISP that is using this service. Convince them do to drop that ISP like a hot potato.
When said ISP sees subscriptions dropping faster then the cashcut of lawsuits comes in, the money will talk for all of us.
Make it hurt the ISPs, as it SHOULD.
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And another thing.
I wonder if Nexicon is telling their prospective customers that the ONLY way they are going to make money from this is if the person accused submits and pays the "settlement".
If they contest it, plead innocence, who is paying for the lawyers? Nexicon? The ISP?
If NOBODY submits, or pays the extortion, then this idea is dead out of the gates.
I Smell Money (Score:2)
Hm... I sense a new business model coming on.
1) First, we give everyone guns.
2) Then, we fine them every time they shoot someone.
3) PROFIT!!
It's brilliant, mate.
This is an inquisition. (Score:1)
This campaign is looking more and more like an inquisition. It is the effort of a group to enforce their belief system. Any tactic is justified if it will maintain their orthodox beliefs.
These beliefs don't have to make sense. They just have to be valued. Copyright infringement equals piracy. Copying music is the same as theft of tangible property. Unapproved distribution of an idea requires infinite punishment. These are not rational thoughts. They are elements of a repressive belief system.
We should just
I call this bs! (Score:1)
Bayou Internet (Score:2)
I feel kind of bad for thinking for 15 years that Jerry is a weasel. Actually I still think he's a weasel, but my opinion of him raised a notch.
Yea. fear. it will work. (Score:1)
do they have ANY idea, what would such a move do to politics in that nation ?
let them proceed with their stupidity - only a few other things can bring an end to such copyright brutalities in the speed that would do.
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I'm booting customers off all the time for p2p filesharing. I might as well get paid for it. My ISP clearly states that it's not allowed, and clearly states that the network is a shared resource. So I'm not tricking anyone. I even tell them when I set them up that p2p is not allowed and it causes bandwidth issues for everyone else.
Just yesterday some lady downloaded 23GB of stuff. Not sure what it was, but it pretty much knocked out internet for about 30 other people. 1500+ connections open to that one computer. I gave her the boot. Told her good luck finding internet access out here in the middle of nowhere. Dial-up doesn't even work.
I reserve the right to deny access to my network to anyone for any reason. Especially illegal activity. No, downloading music for free is not legal. No downloading movies for free is not legal. Gesh, just get Netflix or something.
This has to be the sorriest ISP in existence. Surely you are trolling?
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Why would they want to know?
Customer service goes a long way, it is not in the ISPs interest to pursue piracy, because it provides bad service to their customers.
I have broadband so I can download movies, what else would most people need broadband for if not for media?