Indian GPS Cartographers Charged As Terrorists 269
chrb writes "Following on from the discussion about Apple disabling GPS in Egyptian iPhones, we have a new case of the conflict between the traditional secrecy of government, and the widening availability of cheap, accurate GPS devices around the world. On 5th December, two software engineers employed by Biond Software in India were arrested for mapping highways using vehicle based GPS devices. Further evidence against the pair emerged when it was found that a laptop they had been using in the car contained some photos of the local airforce base. The company claims they had been commissioned by Nokia Navigator to create maps of local roads and terrain. Following an investigation by the Anti Terrorist Squad of Gujarat the cartographers have now been charged with violating the Official
Secrets Act and will remain in custody."
Wat? (Score:2)
Re:Wat? (Score:5, Funny)
Why is this article title red?
*Sigh* This question keeps getting asked, so I feel duty-bound to inform you of the true answer.
:)
It's a test of your sexuality; only people who enjoy performing sexual acts with four-legged mammals of various equine species see it as red- it looks green to the rest of us.
There- now I don't expect to see anyone asking that question again.
P.S. If there's anyone out there who sees it as purple with yellow stripes, please contact me *immediately*.
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I saw it yellow with purple polka dots...
Am I ok?
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You've been putting what where?
Never mind, I don't want to know...
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A red headline usually means this article has been approved for the front page but hasn't reached the front page yet. You should only see them if you're a subscriber.
In the early days of the Firehose, non-subscribers could see such red-headlined articles before they hit the front page.
With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" (Score:5, Funny)
"You are in violation of the Official Secrets Act, you are under arrest."
"The official secrets act? What's that?"
"An official secret. Now put your hands behind your back. You have the right to remain ignorant of your crimes. You have the right to a low quality attorney. And you have the right to not ask any more stupid questions..."
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"You are in violation of the Official Secrets Act, you are under arrest."
Correction: That's the Official Secrets Act of 1923.
From TFA, here's what got led to the charges:
Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" (Score:4, Insightful)
India didn't become an independent nation until after WW II. Checking Wikipedia, I find that this law was held over from the British colonial administration. Interesting.
Indian Penal Code (Score:5, Informative)
Back on topic, as an Indian, I can tell you that it's nowhere clear what you can take pictures of and what you can not. In India, its very easy to break laws not knowing what is legal and what isn't, and you would not know until you are caught - either by a cheap street cop looking for some quick money or by completely incompetent higher ups who have no idea about technology or reality, or simply, common sense.
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You shouldn't have been modded as funny, since its the truth.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bankrupting justice (Score:4, Insightful)
Volatile India-Pakistan (Score:4, Funny)
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Not all governments. Some governments have wisely looked ahead, realized this process is inevitable, and saved the initial outlay. Modern cases in point are M
Judge Moron (Score:4, Insightful)
You're forgetting.. (Score:5, Funny)
First link dead! (Score:2)
Ummm...that first link doesn't work at all. Way to go editors.
Anyways, this really sucks for them. The article doesn't really say what they are being charged with or why having maps is such a bad thing. Lord knows I'd hate to be "grilled" for simply collecting data. Very scary.
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'... Lord knows I'd hate to be "grilled" for simply collecting data. ..."
Fastest way I know to "Get Grilled".
Don't ask so many questions, you'll be allright.
RTFA (Score:5, Insightful)
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Fair enough. But that the government in question is trying to charge them at all for gathering GPS data is pretty lame.
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Using a DUI for an analogy, the poor lane control would be the GPS dish, and the film of the air facilities the half-empty beer bottle.
So, what's the dead hooker in the back seat?
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Re:RTFA (Score:4, Funny)
Ranjan Foley: Living in a van, down by the Ganges.
Wait a sec... (Score:4, Informative)
So very basically, this seems akin so someone driving in a car, decked out with electronics, around say, a nuclear power plant in the U.S. Not saying the charges are or aren't appropriate and there's no information as to how close to said refinery they actually were, but given the area through which they were traveling they should have expected some attention.
Wikipedia Article [wikipedia.org]
Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:4, Informative)
I'm an Indian. Buildings and installations covered under official secrets act have a clear sign that says "photography is prohibited and you can be charged under the act for violation".
So if they did photograph the air force base then they basically broke the law and have been charged. What's the problem?
Try taking photos of a secret Army, Air Force installation in US and see what happens ... guarantee the same result.
There is nothing to see here ... move on.
Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)
Now understanding that this is the law in your country, and it is (apparently) clearly posted, well... yeah, they broke the law and got caught. As usual, /. distorts the story.
Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:5, Informative)
Not so rare any more. Pretty much all the tunnels & bridges in NYC are "no photo" zones. Take a look at this entertaining gallery for examples [nowis.com].
Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:4, Interesting)
Not so rare any more. Pretty much all the tunnels & bridges in NYC are "no photo" zones. Take a look at this entertaining gallery for examples.
All part of the War on Photographers. [popphoto.com]
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Not true. These no-photo rules were imposed in the security-frenzy that was NYC immediately after 9/11. When things calmed down objections were raised by citizens and the rules were rescinded. In 2007, revised rules about commercial street photography in NYC specifically allowed photogrphy by ordinary citizens and visitors.
That does not mean that a lot of people, including cops, don't know or care that the rules w
Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:5, Informative)
A few years ago I took a tourist photo of the Pentagon in D.C. from just outside the metro stop, which is pretty far away from the building. A security officer came and asked me to delete the photo from my camera. I explained that it wasn't a digital camera, but rather a disposable film camera. He said that officially he should make me throw it away, but instead allowed me to go on condition that I didn't take any more photos.
You're right that the law allows people to take tourist photos. But where "security" is concerned, it apparently doesn't matter what the law says.
-Gonz
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The husband likes taking pictures of industrial structures as reference for his model railroad. His job was taking him all over the country at this point.
He was on a road when he saw an interesting building he decided to photograph. So he did. Very soon after that a rent-a-cop came puffing up the hill and told him he couldn't do that.
Next he was demanding that my husband give him the camera. Uh, no. Then he demanded that all the photos (including all the other ones that had nothing to do with this situ
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A few years ago I took a tourist photo of the Pentagon in D.C. from just outside the metro stop, which is pretty far away from the building. A security officer came and asked me to delete the photo from my camera.
Keep in mind that "a security offer asked" and "it is the law" are very, very, different things.
Sometimes they're simply full of shit and trying to intimidate you into doing something they have no legal power to enforce.
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Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)
Now understanding that this is the law in your country, and it is (apparently) clearly posted, well... yeah, they broke the law and got caught. As usual, /. distorts the story.
As to US laws, here's what 18 USC 795 has to say (in part).
"Whenever, in the interests of national defense, the President defines certain vital military and naval installations or equipment as requiring protection against the general dissemination of information relative thereto, it shall be unlawful to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map, or graphical representation of such vital military and naval installations or equipment without first obtaining permission of the commanding officer of the military or naval post, camp, or station, or naval vessels, military and naval aircraft, and any separate military or naval command concerned, or higher authority, and promptly submitting the product obtained to such commanding officer or higher authority for censorship or such other action as he may deem necessary."
Executive Order 10104, 1 Feb 1950:
"... it shall be unlawful to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map, or graphical representation of such vital military and naval installations or equipment..."
Atomic Energy Commission, US Code, Title 42, Cap 23, Div A, Subchap XVII, Sec 2278b:
"It shall be an offense...to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map or graphical representation, while present on property subject to the jurisdiction, administration or in the custody of the Commission."
The laws w.r.t. photography/videography/general data-gathering concerning anything that could be construed as sensitive are very broad, and enforcement and interpretation varies enormously. Making assumptions here can get one in deep trouble very quickly with many large, angry, heavily-armed men, one of which might be thinking to himself; "I wonder if I could just shoot this idiot? If my buddy Smitty is Officer Of The Day today, he'd probably cover me in the report.".
Cheers!
Strat
Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)
Now understanding that this is the law in your country, and it is (apparently) clearly posted, well... yeah, they broke the law and got caught. As usual, /. distorts the story.
Actually, no, you cannot take pictures of many US Military installations. I was one of the guys who would apprehend you and take your camera from you. Please don't speak for America if you don't know enough to tell the truth.
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Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)
Actually, no you can't. You can be charged with a federal crime for photographing certain US defense installations or equipment; no matter where you take the pictures of for what reason. In that respect US law is no different than Indian.
Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:5, Interesting)
Still better than Britain where you can get arrested or harressed for taking photographs anywhere the police do not like it. [amateurpho...pher.co.uk].
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The British police are also interested in those odd people who walk around with GPS devices and then start drawing maps in a cafe [glasgownet.com]. OpenStreetMappers beware.
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Go to ANY military airfield in the USA; there are signs specifying two things: It is a US Govermnent property site, so you must abide by all rules, regulations, and laws. Failure results in prosecution. Photogrophy is prohibited. To make a photograph is a Federal offense.
Agreed. However, you have to reread the QuasiEvil's post where he said (emphasis mine):
you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US.
Which means if you are standing on public land which is not part of the US Government property site, you can take pictures of the US Government property site even though photography while on the site is prohibited.
That said, I would imagine that most sites that have said regulations are not particularly close to public land and/or have some sort of obstruction to keep people from taking photographs.
Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:5, Funny)
Go to ANY military airfield in the USA; there are signs specifying two things
Could you provide a photo of these signs to back up your claim?
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You can't read them (two white blobs), but here [google.com] they are. Langley AFB VA, just outside the West Gate.
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; there are signs specifying two things: It is a US Govermnent property site... Photogrophy is prohibited
Sure, if you go on the base property. But I think by "public" land the GP meant more along the lines of the public road that goes by the base. There may not be a gate preventing access to the base property, but it's no longer public land.
Doesn't matter if you are not on base property; you can still be prosecuted for photographing restricted installations.
Judge the Law (Score:5, Insightful)
So if they did photograph the air force base then they basically broke the law and have been charged. What's the problem?
The law does almost nothing to prevent terrorism while throwing innocent people in jail for doing things a free person would normally do.
That's the problem.
We could have a really safe society by placing everybody under house arrest, unless they were being transported by the government to their work centers. Official delivery people could provide rations and perhaps emergency services personnel could use the roads as well. Then we just arrest anybody else traveling illegally and execute them for attempted terrorism.
I'll take some risk with my freedom, thanks.
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There is more to this than terrorism. This is basic counter-espionage.
Taking pictures of military and other government installations is a common first step to both detecting and planning an attack. Troop build-ups; armor, ship, and aircraft location and movement; the locations of guards, cameras, and other surveilence equipment; and other information can all be captured, transmitted, and analyzed.
As an example, the attack on Pearl Harbor was planned, in part, using pictures taken by Japanese tourists and im
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Taking pictures of military and other government installations is a common first step to both detecting and planning an attack. Troop build-ups; armor, ship, and aircraft location and movement; the locations of guards, cameras, and other surveilence equipment; and other information can all be captured, transmitted, and analyzed.
No doubt. But this law can't stop that. The best it can do is put a little dent into it, so if your security is based on laws like this you're already screwed.
That would be enough
Re:Judge the Law (Score:4, Insightful)
The law does almost nothing to prevent terrorism while throwing innocent people in jail for doing things a free person would normally do.
I don't know about that, but it does send a message to a totalitarian and genocidal enemy (Pakistan) that they will have a tougher time in carrying out their goals.
I'll take some risk with my freedom, thanks.
I'd rather lose some freedoms than die in a nuclear fireball, or live in perpetual misery in the Dhimmitude of an Islamic theocracy. Pakistan means to destroy our country or, failing that, occupy it and subject non-Muslims to the dehumanizing oppression of Dhimmitude (fighting Islamic Jihad is mentioned in their constitution, as well as the motto of their Army).
It's easy for you to pontificate, sitting in a country surrounded by well-wishing allies. Not so for us, being the only democracy surrounded by Islamic theocracies and totalitarian dictatorships who mean to wipe us out (and have already tried to do so once: http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/ [genocidebangladesh.org]).
It's a little different in the US (Score:2)
You can take pictures of pretty much anything in public view, including things like military bases. For that matter, pictures are usually freely available online. Where the US's bases are and such are not secret. Even the locations where secret things happen, such as testing facilities you can photograph from public land. What they do is simply create a large exclusionary zone. So while the facility might be, say, a square mile, there'll be 50 square miles around it that are owned by the government and off
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Its still wrong.
Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge (Score:4, Insightful)
The engineers were initially arrested for GPS surveying - despite the fact that Google Maps appears to have quite a detailed map of Jamnagar [google.com] (including the airforce base).
The fact that the police actually found some incriminating photos afterwards doesn't mean that the original arrest was reasonable - using a GPS device isn't a crime, and shouldn't give the police license to search the rest of your equipment looking for further evidence.
As to whether photographing an air force base should be a crime in the first place - let me introduce a detailed aerial photo of Jamnagar Air Force Base! [wikimapia.org] Also try searching for Jamnagar AFB on Google images :-) You can't put the cat back in the bag, and this kind of inadvertent information leakage is exactly what I was talking about when I noted the conflict between the traditional secrecy of the military/government and cheap, accurate personal electronics.
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The problem is that the secret is already out. Wikimapia has a detailed photo of Jamnagar Air Force Base [wikimapia.org], the exact same base that these guys have been charged with taking photos of. Not only that, but metadata has been added that is obviously from people who work on the base - check out the Mig 29s, 28 squadron air force, Mig 21s, choppers, swimming pool, school, gymnasium, canteen; it's
Come on, this is 2008 ! (Score:3, Insightful)
Governments have to understand cartography can no longer be restricted to military or other officials.
GPS, camera, satellites are ubiquitous, and we can see the result with things like Google Earth or wiki-like mapping. You can no longer make imprecise or secret maps. You can no longer forbid photos of any place you can see from a public location. You can no longer base your security on obscurity.
After all, the bad guys probably already have all this information. You have to assume they have it, or your doomed to failure. Just make officially all those things public, and find new ways to implement security for your important places, for people, for the country...
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In many countries a government agency has the exclusive right to produce maps. Attempting to compete with the government results in being shut down.
Is it not the right of a country to determine who shall make maps?
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> Is it not the right of a country to determine who shall make maps?
No, although it may be in their power. But this was India, which claims to be a modern democracy, not China, let alone North Korea.
But it's India (Score:2)
Realistically though, this is India. Parts of it might appear the same on the surface where you'd visit as a tourist, but it's still not the USA or any similar country. There are a massive number of people (nearly 4 times the USA's population crammed into 1/3 the land area), poverty in general and overall standards of living are much lower, there are major distinctions in wealth, and a strong social class system still exists in some places and results in discrimination and unfair due process that couldn't
I am beginning to see a pattern. (Score:3, Insightful)
Step 1: Create and heavily market new technology to public as a profitable venture
Step 2: Make use of technology ILLEGAL
Step 3: Fill privately owned/operated prisons with resulting miscreants OR...
Optional Step 4: Use resulting abuse(illegality) as validation to extort money from general populace
This model fits with the whole Media/DRM crap and now seems to be used for purposes other then making money.
Biond...James Biond? (Score:4, Insightful)
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We don't necessarily have 100% of the information here, but this whole thing seriously sounds to me like a typical case of governmental recto-cranial inversion.
Why would cartographers be taking pictures of airforce bases...
Does sound just a tad suspicious.
And if they had "taken pictures of young girls playing in school yards" it would also sound suspicious.
If people are making GPS maps and taking generic video/photos as part of it, then yes, that video and those photos will include the little girls in the s
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on September 11, 2001 there wasn't a specific law against a bunch of strange Arabs getting flight training and bringing boxcutters onto commercial airplanes. That doesn't mean someone shouldn't have stopped them and asked them what the hell they were doing.
In a free society, that is precisely what it means.
Nobody said freedom was free.
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In a free society, that is precisely what it means.
No it does not. Absolute freedom is a pipe dream. A modern society has to have safety measures, particularly in vulnerable regions like aircraft. If there is reasonable cause to suspect some people of carrying out terrorism then they should be detained.
The algebra of government (Score:2, Troll)
The more just, accepted, legitimate, and mature is a nation's government, the less paranoid and totalitarian it becomes.
1-way encryption (Score:3, Interesting)
GPS Connection Likely Peripheral To Arrests (Score:4, Insightful)
Photographing military installations is a crime in many countries, as is publishing maps of areas that include those installations.
Not to say that is right, but their employment by a GPS company was probably peripheral to the arrests.
not to go out on a limb (Score:3, Insightful)
History repeats itself ... again (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Crazy Indians? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Crazy Indians? (Score:5, Interesting)
The convoy was supposed to detour around the town and instead turned directly into it, eventually running into an ambush. The ambush was unlikely to have been set up in advance, because the Iraqis did not know which course the convoy would take. The navigational error has never been properly explained, because the soldiers had GPS receivers and maps
My buddy revealed that it was common knowledge in the sandbox that the Officer in charge of the convoy, Capt. Troy Kent King, was the one who was responsible for making the wrong turns. According to google searches, the report is classified Secret and so the official cause is still "unknown".
So that's what happens when LT's with a map and compass go on to become captains.
Re:Crazy Indians? (Score:4, Interesting)
The Blue Force Tracker system is an OK navigation system. The daggers, military hand held GPS sytems, are total and complete shit. Your lucky if you can find your own ass with one of those things.
When I first got into Iraq, we where told we didn't need strip maps because our convoy commander had a GPS and and "had driven the route dozens of times." We took several wrong turns in Baghdad and were lost for over an hour. We ran into a EOD cordon around an IED, and they pointed us in the right direction. On the up side, we missed 2 IED's along our planned route.
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Re:Crazy Indians? (Score:5, Interesting)
Fresh officers (boots, butterbars, third-butter-cutter, all sorts of names for them) out of officer school are all hot to show their Stuff. Typically, within weeks of commissioning they were given a platoon of men to lead. As the head cheese, it is their responsibility to get the platoon where it needs to go.
These guys are around 22 years old. In this platoon, you are sure to have one old salt, and a couple on their way. The unwritten rule is to make sure the butterbar has adult supervision in the form of a senior non-com. This senior non-com goes out of his way _not_ to make decisions. So, you will hear plenty of stories about how a platoon gets hopelessly lost while the non-coms who could have 'prevented' the tragedy do nothing. The officers learn from their mistakes with the benefit of senior non-coms as training wheels.
In modern times, the officers go through some OJT as an exec. or something in addition to the more extensive field training currently in the system.
Re:Crazy Indians? (Score:5, Funny)
Actually I know of two things more dangerous:
1) A programmer with a screwdriver
2) A salesman with an install disc
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Therefore we can deduce that a salesman with a screwdriver would be truly terrifying.
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2) A salesman with an install disc
Q: What is the difference between a used car and software sales?
A: The car salesman knows he is lying.
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Wrong.
The most dangerous thing in the world is a second lieutenant.
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Re:Charged As Terrorists? (Score:5, Funny)
GPS information is an official secret?
"Where am I?"
"You have no right to know that."
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GPS information is an official secret?
No, but certain locations, aircraft configurations, and equipment ARE secret and videos/pictures of them when supposedly out collecting GPS info is grounds for interrogation and subsequent charges under the Official Secrets Act.
Re:Charged As Terrorists? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Charged As Terrorists? (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, to stay out of trouble, they'd be safer knowing every location that it is NOT at, and extrapolating from there.
Tongue, cheek, and all that.
Re:Charged As Terrorists? (Score:4, Interesting)
For some reason this reminds me of telemarketers' Do Not Call list.
Or the "opt out" link on spam, whereby one can click to say, "Yes, I'm here and I read my spam, so please stop sending it."
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Yes, you must not look and register any airforce base. Please use Google for that detail.
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Fixed that for you
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"Where am I?" "You have no right to know that."
"you are here!"
knock knock.. uh oh
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GPS information is an official secret?
"Where am I?"
"You have no right to know that."
Sweet, I smell money in turning a magic 8 ball into an India and Egypt compatible GPS:
1. Ask where you are
2. Shake the 'GPS'
3. Get presented with answers such as "You are here", "You aren't there", "You are on Earth", "You are lost", "Ask again later", "Use a Map"
Though in some cases this may still be too much information for local authorities ;)
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GPS information is an official secret?
"Where am I?"
"You have no right to know that."
Nice joke, but it is out of context of what the issue is. These people took photographs of places they are forbidden to take photographs of.
Read the articles. It is very clear that these people violated laws, and though they may claim ignorance, we all know that ignorance is no excuse.
Here's a simple rule of thumb: Don't take pictures of any government or military facilities unless you know for sure that it is ok to do so.
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You're kidding, right? I realize that Guantanamo isn't a resort, but I'd feel much safer there than in an Indian jail. Especially with the spot-light shining on it so brightly.
Of course, this pair has only gone 3 days being held without an official charge...
Re:Well (Score:4, Informative)
Oops. I actually read the first linked article and jumped the gun (at that point they'd been held 3 days and not charged). TFS clearly indicates that they're facing charges for photographing the Air Force base.
Of course, you can be detained for doing that in the US too. Not sure what exactly they charge you with.
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Of course, you can be detained for doing that in the US too. Not sure what exactly they charge you with.
Really? I wonder what happened to the Google employees who took these photos [google.com]?
Re:Well (Score:5, Funny)
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I would snap up a chance to do time at Gitmo vs. just about any jail/prison outside of the 1st world.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
For the record [ijcm.org.in], hoods + shackles are a hell of a lot more preferable to tuberculosis, malnutrition, and unsafe water.
I would snap up a chance to do time at Gitmo vs. just about any jail/prison outside of the 1st world.
And I would snap up a chance to do time in any Western European prison instead of being tortured at Gitmo or anal raped in a mainland US prison. You guys aren't treating your prisoners right.
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Even if they were commissioned, if mapping that close to a base was prohibited and posted, then they broke the Act, just as the US DoD worker who was convicted of espionage for Jane's Publications (Jane's Fighting Ships, Jane's Armies Of The World, etc). If the area WASN'T posted, then the government screwed up, especially as it was apparently a public road. Unles