Four Google Officials Facing Charges In Italy For Errant Video 153
mikesd81 writes to tell us that four Google employees may be facing charges of defamation and failure to control personal data simply because they didn't remove a video of a boy with Down's Syndrome being harassed and eventually hit over the head with a box of tissue, from Google Video. The video was posted in September of 2006 and was removed by Google within a day of receiving the initial complaints, but apparently that isn't fast enough. "Google maintains charges against the employees are unwarranted, Pancini said. Europe's E-commerce Directive exempts service providers from prescreening content before it is publicly posted, he said. Also, the video was technically uploaded to a Google server in the US, not in Italy, Pancini said. 'It was a terrible video,' Pancini said, adding that Google is concerned about the case's impact on censorship on the Internet. The defendants include David C. Drummond, a Google senior vice president, corporate development and chief legal officer. Pancini said Drummond did paperwork to create Google Italy, but has never lived in the country."
Long Italian tradition of standing up for the weak (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Long Italian tradition of standing up for the w (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Long Italian tradition of standing up for the w (Score:5, Funny)
Now that's funny - why'd you go and post as AC?
Sorry i was in a hurry and i wasn't logged in...
Just kidding, i didn't post that. Hah. Or did i? Really i just wanted to ensure that if someone stepped up to the plate after this, it would be sufficiently confusing that one could never know if they were really the OP! Hah! Oh god, i need a life...
-Taylor
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Also, I forgot to mention that my penis is tiny, scabby, and only aroused by Richard Simmons videos...
-Taylor
Sorry i am in a hurry and i don't have time to log in...
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(treading carefully not to invoke Godwin's Law)
Maybe they are trying to distance themselves from past mistakes and be better as the Germans have done.
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I agree with you, and think that certain regulation should be implemented that mimics certain countries laws. That would be the person who shot the video, no the person who is hosting the server that let someone post the video. I am not sure(as I never read the articles) but if the person is guilty of not screening, then I don't think there should be punishment, but if there is a way to track the person who filmed the video and posted it...they are the ones who should get charged.
Re:Long Italian tradition of standing up for the w (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree with you, and think that certain regulation should be implemented that mimics certain countries laws. That would be the person who shot the video, no the person who is hosting the server that let someone post the video. I am not sure(as I never read the articles) but if the person is guilty of not screening, then I don't think there should be punishment, but if there is a way to track the person who filmed the video and posted it...they are the ones who should get charged.
Charged with what? Putting a distasteful video on the internet? Do you know what kind of precedent that would set? Not that the current situation (suing google) is any better...
-Taylor
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Or for assaulting a kid with Down syndrome...
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Google has more money than the bullies parents.
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And probably Italy, too.
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Or for assaulting a kid with Down syndrome...
Yeah, sorry, i misread the article. I was thinking it was more of a playful thing that was just distasteful, not a harassment/assault thing.
-Taylor
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Assault only requires an unlawful attack, it need not cause any harm, nor even be physical in nature.
Considering that spitting on someone is considered assault and battery (battery being the part involving physical contact) in most of the US (not sure about Italy, but I would imagine the law is roughly analogous on this topic), I would imagine that a box of tissues at least qualifies as assault.
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Except I don't think it was the Google employee's fault that the video was there and I don't think they made the video, they only had to take it down which they did. I remember this story when it first popped up quite a while ago but, in true /. fashion, I haven't actually RTFA yet or at least not this particular one.
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Do you know what kind of precedent that would set?
None, as the Italian law system is not based in common law and therefore does not have the notion of precedent
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Do you know what kind of precedent that would set?
None, as the Italian law system is not based in common law and therefore does not have the notion of precedent
Ah, well then, interesting.
-Taylor
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maybe not a legal precedent in the traditional sense, but just because there's no common law doesn't mean people won't imitate these actions and file similar cases after seeing the successful prosecution of the defendants in this case. heck, other European, and even non-European, countries could see it as an affirmation of "societally acceptable" censorship.
it's just like when the U.K. starts putting up surveillance cameras everywhere it, not only sets a bad example, but also makes it more permissible for,
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The notion of precedence existed as early as in Roman Law, it just doesn't have the same specific meaning as it does under the common law system(s).
I don't know much about Italian law, but precedence is alive and well in European Community law as well as European Convention of Human Rights case law from the ECHR, both of which are binding to Italian courts.
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Distasteful video, no...more like physical abuse on a handicapped.
He threw a cleanex box at him...thrown the right way, I can really damage you...so you want me to be able to throw boxes at you, why stop there....the person who filmed this video, did not care to interfere and should get some consequence, as well, this might trigger him giving up his friend who actually did commit the crime.
Its called a hate crime (however minor) and involves physical abuse...how about i come by your house and violate your mother or father in front of you and post it on YouTube, I am sure your tune would change then....always with the attitude "well if it doesn't happen to me, then why should I care"
Whoa, calm down there, as i said in a comment below:
Or for assaulting a kid with Down syndrome...
Yeah, sorry, i misread the article. I was thinking it was more of a playful thing that was just distasteful, not a harassment/assault thing.
-Taylor
I was thinking it was some kids playing around in a non-violent way, and it was getting blown out of proportion. I didn't realize it was more than that, i don't support hate crimes!
-Taylor
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no boarders (Score:5, Insightful)
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Borders.
Boarders are guests at a Bed and Breakfast. Borders are the invisible imaginary lines people draw on maps.
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You mean that razor wire is imaginary? It looks so real!
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Is razor wire drawn on maps? No? Well, then.
Re:no boarders (Score:5, Funny)
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Off topic? C'mon! He's responding to a post within the context! He's not talking about how proper coding methods are vital or other things that have no bearing with this discussion thread.
Re:no boarders (Score:5, Funny)
Somewhere in hell, in some dark corner of a particularly nasty pit, there is a small chair with your UID carved on it. Freaks.
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Arr! It's pirate talk. (Score:2)
Re:no boarders (Score:5, Funny)
No, wait, never mind. That's hell I'm talking about.
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You know you've always wanted an internet where IP law is handled by the Americans, politically controversial material by the Germans, porn by the Iranians, and dissidents by the Chinese. No, wait, never mind. That's hell I'm talking about.
Can't really argue with your definition of Hell on Earth.
Of course, to be fair, most of the changes in U.S. IP law have been to "harmonize" us with what Europe has already done to itself (e.g. first-to-file patents, extended copyright, etc.) We just take the heat for it.
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Italy, eh? (Score:4, Funny)
That's a bit machiavellian of them.
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True. But consider the target audience. -_-
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corporations (Score:5, Insightful)
How on earth are they suing individuals? Google is a corporation and must be treated as such under the law.
Re:corporations (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:corporations (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:corporations (Score:4, Insightful)
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Well you never know when you are flying and gets diverted to some country where you have a warrant.
Also it would be more like any country in the EU since we got deals for exchange of wanted criminals.
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It's not that some don't want to, it's that they can't afford to.
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Pity, Italy's pretty cool. Of course, the average American never leaves the state they were born in let alone the country. It must be nice to live in an area so fucking awesome that you never want to leave it.
Awesome ... possibly, depending upon where you live. Big, definitely. And why would you assume nobody ever wants to leave it? Everyone here looks with envy upon those who are able to visit other countries, either for business or pleasure. I know it's popular to look upon Americans as ignorant boobs who think we're the center of the Universe (and, okay, looking at our President for the past eight years I guess I can see why) but really that's an unfair characterization.
Besides, look at the size of a typic
Getting overseas (Score:2)
I do think it's a lot to do with wanting to go somewhere. I've grown up in New Zealand which is a small country (~4 million people) about as far from everywhere e
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Still, I personally know many, many people that have gone overseas just for the experience. A number of people (generally older ones that have the resources) where I work regularly take trips to vari
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Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable travelling to a lot of the EU countries, especially Germany. I know it probably wouldn't be an issue, but they have godawful free speech protections. I'm very comfortable in America being able to tap whatever keys I want without fear of police harassment, but you can get in big trouble for saying the wrong thing in europe.. I mean I'd probably enjoy myself but I'd be tiptoeing on eggshells the whole time. Paranoid I know.
Funny ... if you poke around Slashdot you'll find Europeans are regularly saying the exact same things about us. Personally, I think we're all just projecting.
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Judicial processing of violations of criminal law are (usually?) targeted at individuals. For example, you can't just murder someone and then claim that as an employee of a corporation you have some kind of legal immunity. Obviously it all depends on the law and judicial authority in question.
Re:corporations (Score:5, Insightful)
As an Italian living in Italy I remember that the boys that were responsible for the harassment were prosecuted in 2006, at the time of the facts.
Google has been accused of abuses related to the failure of preventing defamation and to having made a profit out of that video thanks to the ads on the page (this is an abuse because our privacy laws). Those are criminal charges that can result in both a fine and jail time. Under Italian law individuals have criminal responsibility and not companies. That's why the state is suing managers of Google and not the company.
My take on this issue is that's impractical to scan and review every single video, picture or comment posted to the internet (Google Video, YouTube, Flickr, even Slashdot). It's just a matter of volume. Laws that were created with the press or the TV in mind should be rewritten to take in account that fact unless we want to shutdown the Internet in Italy.
I'm sure that in every country there are forces that want to tighten the control on the Internet and the freedom of speech of individuals, but I'm also sure that in most countries the majority of the citizens don't support them. Criminal responsibility is individual and only posters should be sued when controls on content are impractical. The service provider should be exempted from any accusations of complicity.
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Interesting. Yes, unless Italy changes the law, it is in effect outlawing EVERY web site that allows user submissions, including slashdot.
The lack of corporate protection also gives pause. If I were running a web business which allowed user submission, Italy would be near the bottom of my list of countries to allow access from. They won't get my business unless they fix their law.
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unless we want to shutdown the Internet
I would not completely rule out the possibility that there may exist some persons on this planet who may be thinking about shutting down the Internet anywhere
Itally Not Prudent (Score:5, Insightful)
If this proceeds, Google should simply shut down its operations in Italy and move to a neighboring country where its employees won't be targeted by tyrants.
I'm assuming Italy doesn't want that reputation.
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I'm not an expert on international law, but if the employees aren't in Italy then why should they worry? I doubt a US court would allow an extradition for a crime as meaningless like this.
Also is there a mirror of this video? I want to see it since some employees could be getting into some trouble because of it!
Re:Itally Not Prudent (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't want a warrant for your arrest in any country. Even if it is something stupid which you can't be extradited for. It means you can never visit and you can never get a flight which goes through their airport or even anywhere near the country (for fear of being diverted to the country for some reason).
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well, because they'd be at risk throughout Europe if a European arrest warrant was issued for them. And it seems that local governments don't have the right to tell issuing countries to get bent when they recieve a warrant for a petty or out-of-jurisdiction 'offence'.
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.
and where, pray tell, in the EU is Google going to find a more tolerant reception when it comes to stories like this?
Re:Itally Not Prudent (Score:4, Insightful)
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Absolutely. While they're at it, they can close their whole Europe business, too. I wouldn't miss Google.
That's what you say now.
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I wouldn't miss Google.
Yeah, the EU should set up its own search engine. It'd be much better.
Prosecutors in Italy are stupid... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Prosecutors in Italy are stupid... (Score:5, Funny)
Well, thank god that never happens in the USA!
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Well Obama is promising for the US to be more like Europe...
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Ah, that probably means they're just going to be your average run-of-the-mill amount of "ignorant". Ignore Italy, they're special...
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Ah, that probably means they're just going to be your average run-of-the-mill amount of "ignorant". Ignore Italy, they're special...
No, our politicians are just as ignorant as the other poster said about Italy's ... it's just that they have a lot more money and resources to squander on their stupidity.
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Never has the world had more need for a B-Ark [wikipedia.org].
Just so you know, I've already reserved a place for all the British MPs that think a surveillance state is a good idea.
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Please mod the parent up.
These kind of dumb warrants against foreigners by prosecutors/judges in Italy are very common. There are warrants in Italy against President George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld, for example.
In case you never saw a mafioso... (Score:5, Interesting)
That was a comment that reeks Mafia all the way. Sure, some prosecutors are silly like there are silly people everywhere, but this kind of generalisation is typical of corrupt politicians who accuse prosecutors going after them of being politically motivated, as appearing in the press were the main aspiration of prosecutors (in case you did not know: we do not elect prosecutors nor judges here, so being known among the populace is no career advantage). There is much more money and career to be made by keeping quiet and pandering to illegal interests, as Corrado Carnevale [wikipedia.org] exemplifies.
As for the specific case, I'd like to point out that in the Italian system felonies, once reported, must always be investigated and prosecuted, no matter the opinion of the prosecutor; it is a way of reducing arbitrary decisions and IMHO it is overall a Good Thing. As the article says, the decision to hold trial has not been made yet, and the chance that the prosecutor will ask for an archiving is not as small as you Americans may think; since all reported felonies must be investigated, dropping one is not a mark of incompetence on someone's career.
If I remember correctly, in this specific instance it was former justice minister Clemente Mastella [wikipedia.org], leader of a corruption-ridden micro-party and currently in political disgrace (the two things are unfortunately unrelated...) that was most vocal in calling for a ban on Youtube and Google video when the video surfaced, of course never suggesting that the people who uploaded the video and performed the assault should be investigated themselves.
In fact, I have no idea about what happened to the perpetrators. Surely I did not read nor hear anything on Italian media. It seems that all the fuss was about the thing being recorded and broadcast, instead of the crime itself.
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Meanwhile, Mastella thought he could get so
Related US Law (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems to be appropriate, but does anyone have personal experience?
At least they know their priorities (Score:4, Insightful)
Predictably, it doesn't state anywhere that Italian prosecutors are going after the boys who harassed and attacked a handicapped child.
Re:At least they know their priorities (Score:5, Informative)
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Why go after Google? (Score:3, Interesting)
So let me get this straight, four kids were bullying a child with Down's Syndrome and a video of it was posted on Google Video. Rather than speaking with the parents of the children about bullying someone, especially someone with Down's Syndrome, prosecutors in Italy decide to go after Google? I don't think the teens involved should be going to jail and certainly Italian taxpayer time and money should not be directed completely on this. But I don't see how or why they are trying to go after Google, especially since they complied with the removal request within a day.
Also, for those of you wondering who Pancini is and didn't read the article, he is introduced in the article as Marco Pancini, Google's European public policy counsel. The summary does not mention who the hell he is.
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Re:Why go after Google? (Score:5, Informative)
Prosecutors do not decide what to prosecute in Italy. Felonies, when reported, must always be investigated. In this case, it was the ministry of Interior that sent in a complaint, and prosecutors are only doing their job. Should they decide to start a trial instead of archiving the case, then there will be a reason to insult them.
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Thanks for the info about prosecution in Italy. The article made it sound like the charges were certain, especially with a title like "Four Google Officials Likely to Stand Trial in Italy".
But you do have a point, nowhere in the article does it say that the charges have been officially filed and that the four employees will be standing trial.
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But you do have a point, nowhere in the article does it say that the charges have been officially filed and that the four employees will be standing trial.
Oh.... so that's who leaked the story to the press. OK, I take back what I said about the prosecutors.
Drummond has never lived in the country... (Score:3, Interesting)
What, you mean you can be sentenced to several years in jail in a nation that you're never even visited? [govtech.com] Imagine the shock.
I wonder if we'll ever see an American extradited to Europe, Australia, or even China for breaking intellectual property laws. The US is currently lobbying for criminal law to be used to enforce patents in the EU - it would be amusing to see the response if Europe actually started requesting the extradition of Americans who are suspected of violating EU patents!
In other news, treaties that are only enforced by one side suck.
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You know, I expected to find something in that story that I could use to refute the validity of your claim. Perhaps that the law he had violated was particularly severe, or something we could all agree on. But nope, that was a pretty good example of things we will have to deal with increasingly in this world. It is like being at the border of one country and saying something loud enough that someone in a neighboring country overhears (which is illegal to say in that country) and being arrested for it in you
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I wonder if we'll ever see an American extradited to Europe, Australia, or even China for breaking intellectual property laws.
It seems likely given the current pace. Obama and most of the Democrats are very pro-UN, and on the other side you have mostly Rockefeller Republicans:
Yet another example of misplaced anger... (Score:3, Insightful)
Why sue Youtube?
There are the harassers and the video posters who are more directly linked with any harm.
Oh, right. The money.
Why Not Just Ignore Italy? (Score:2)
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Creating a precedent to serve our fascist regime (Score:1, Informative)
I'm italian. For those of you who didn't know, here's a highly condensed list of relevant events in our recent history.
1 - Fascism is back.
Every democracy challenged regime must control the information sources, youtube included, therefore they're working on it in a subtle way.
While that video surely shouldn't have been posted online and those bastards deserve a new ass treatment in some dark jail, I'm pretty sure our government is trying to force things to the point Google will give the government a tool to
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Indeed, the post you replied to was greatly exaggerated: the italian government will not censor youtube.
What is happening is that the parliament is planning legislation [youtube.com] [italian language] to stop youtube from infringing copyright by hosting clips of tv shows recorded from the head of the government’s private tv networks.
Yet, it is to be noted that democratically elected members of senate [adnkronos.com] [italian language] belonging to the currently ruling party, and even the head of the government himself [guardian.co.uk], are often
This is Rather Ridiculous, but is Silver-Lined (Score:1, Flamebait)
It's a rather outrageous case, and we all know it. Still, there's a certain satisfaction in seeing Google execs suffer for any reason. I imagine I'd feel the same way if W went to Singapore, gave his secret service buddy a stick of gum that was later spit onto the sidewalk, and got caned.
Freedom, Net Neutrality and no Censorship (Score:1, Insightful)
Google's response (Score:2)
Google immediately responded to this by denying ingress TCP packets from all Italian netblocks and redirecting google.it and google.co.it to goatse.cx.
Just kidding, but it would be funny.
Why would they take it down? (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm wondering why they would take the video down? Is not having the video going to improve the life of this child? Does it make us pretend that someone is not getting abused?
Sometimes we need to see the truth of things. Why isn't all of the NAZI propaganda, translated Hitler, Goebels and other speeches on YouTube, along with captured footage of all the outrages committed by them. Let's get all of our ugliness up there, and if there is any editing, let the editing be to yank out the gore so that the les
I'm Italian (Score:2)
Once I was in Cortina where a guy dented my 10 year old car. So I used a four letter word. The guy threatened me over filing defamation charges. So I took advantage of this in my way and covered him with much more defamation. His wife was thoroughly embarrassed and I was highly amused. The dent wasn't actually noticeable and I took this in my speed-of-light assessment of the situation.
Another time I was walking
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"Why would the British make jokes about us walking backwards?"
Being Italian also, I would like to point out that the British can't cook worth a damn, but an Italian grandmother can cook anything out of virtually nothing.
Re:Anyone else getting sick and tired of "advocacy (Score:5, Funny)
Why don't you found a 501(c)(3) corporation to work for the banning of such groups?
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Why don't you found a 501(c)(3) corporation to work for the banning of such groups?
Nah. Too much work.
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If you're going to go that far then you might as well include "HammerTime."
Bugger posting AC. Karma is now officially fuel for amusement purposes. I have it so I get to spend it for silly posts. ;)