Gov't Database Errors Leading To Unconstitutional Searches? 272
Wired is running a story about a case the Supreme Court will be hearing on Tuesday that relates to searches based on erroneous information in government databases. In the case of Herring vs. US 07-513, the defendant was followed and pulled over based on a records indicating he had a warrant out for his arrest. Upon further review, the local county clerk found the records were in error, and the warrant notification should have been removed months prior. Unfortunately for Herring, he had already been arrested and his car searched. Police found a small amount of drugs and a firearm, for which Herring was subsequently prosecuted. Several friend-of-the-court briefs have been filed to argue this case, some calling for "an accuracy obligation on law enforcement agents [PDF] who rely on criminal justice information systems," and others defending such searches as good-faith exceptions [PDF].
Herring was arrested... (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't understand, shouldn't any evidence obtained under a false warrant be unusable?
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
"This is your receipt for your husband...and this (Score:2, Insightful)
is my receipt for your receipt."
"It's not my fault that Buttle's heart condition didn't appear on Tuttle's file!" [wordpress.com]
"I understand this concern on behalf of the taxpayers.
People want value for money. That's why we always
insist on the principal of Information Retrieval
charges. It's absolutely right and fair that those
found guilty should pay for their periods of dete
Re:"This is your receipt for your husband...and th (Score:5, Funny)
What in the FUCK is this guy going on about? His post looks like damn script automated it and linked to a random picture, and yet some douche bags modded him informative and insightful?
If you wish to troll this thread you must first complete form 27B stoke 6.
Re:"This is your receipt for your husband...and th (Score:4, Informative)
They are some poignant quotes from Brazil [wikipedia.org].
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If a judge cleared that warrant, isn't it invalid anyway? Essentially we are talking about a notification message in the computer in some cops cruiser, and nothing more.
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Re:Herring was arrested... (Score:5, Insightful)
The real problem is that the potential for abuse is high.
"Oops," isn't a defense if you or I break the law because if it was we would all claim everything we did was accidental. It seems to me the same should apply to rights violations committed by the government. Otherwise we'll see governments "accidentally" forget to remove warrants all the time.
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"Breaking the law" involves intentionality or at least negligence which is considered to involve intentionality in maybe not a common-sense notion of the term. So your statement '"Oops," isn't a defense if you or I break the law because if it was we would all claim everything we did was accidental' is a strange one.
If you did break the law and were already determined finally to have broken the law, then you don't have a legal defense anymore, so of course you can't say "Oops" as a legal defense. But if yo
Exactly. (Score:4, Insightful)
This is exactly why historically an illegal search that nets evidence of other real crimes invalidates the evidence. Historically the courts have reasoned that the "oops" power would be abused and thus lead to problems. Now if they would only do so with drug laws and seizure we'd be better off.
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Historically the courts have reasoned that the "oops" power would be abused and thus lead to problems. Now if they would only do so with drug laws and seizure we'd be better off.
If there were no drug laws we would be better off, too. The drug laws, like alcohol Prohibition, cause the very problems they purport to solve.
Marijuana leads to harder drugs
I know people who became crack addicts because the non-addictive marijuana stays in your system for over a month, while cocaine can't be detected by employers'
Not false, but invalid (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, a warrant that exists under conditions that it should not seems to be pretty much false in my book. It was invalid, and the conditions under which it was created were not longer valid (expired).
The problem with "good faith" in many of these cases is that it allows the rules to be stretched, which can lead to abuse. How many convenient "mistakes" would be needed before they start to seem "too convenient"
Re:Herring was arrested... (Score:5, Informative)
If you check out the actual petition to the court you will see the warrant was removed five months earlier. Mr. Herring lived on the border between three different counties so the police sent the warrant to all three counties. When the warrant was recalled there was a "breakdown...someplace within the Sheriff's department".
From the article:
When the clerk went to fetch the paper file she could not find the warrant. The warrant clerk called the officer to inform him of the issue but the officer was already on the scene and had made the arrest (despite Mr. Herring informing the officer that no warrant existed).
I think it's also interesting to note how Anderson (the cop) recognized Mr. Herring. From the footnote on page 4 of the petition [abanet.org] (page 13 in the PDF):
Re:Herring was arrested... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that at the time of search, the warrant was not false. It was a real warrant, it just had not been removed yet. Remember, Warrants don't mean he will be prosecuted, they only allow you to arrest or search, they could choose not to charge him later when the error was found. Now, being liberal, I think that they should throw out the new charges as the warrant should not have been in effect due to no error on the victim's part. However, this will be an interesting one to watch the courts on to see what their logic is.
The warrant was expired, the currency of it was false. It's current effect was false.
Suppressing the evidence in this case provides several things. First, it removes an incentive to improperly leave warrants in the system deliberately. It also acknowledges that the search should never have happened by making it as if it hadn't (helps to make the victim whole).
Since the officers involved acted in good faith, they shouldn't be sanctioned in any way (including a civil suit). The department that negligently failed to remove the expired warrant from the system should face sanctions including a suit by the victim (for obvious reasons) and potentially a suit by the police department that relied on the bad information (since they spent a non-zero amount of time and money performing a stop and search that will be nullified based on bad information).
Unless all of that happens, there is zero incentive to avoid screwing people over through negligence.
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I fail to see how any opinion on the matter could be seen as "opposition to the Constitution."
Well, any decision could be seen as in opposition to the spirit of the Constitution. The fact that it isn't mentioned in the Constitution doesn't really matter for that.
That said, yeah, the GP is either really stupid or trolling.
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Re:Herring was arrested... (Score:5, Interesting)
I RTFA. Given that this violation is at the constitutional level. The evidence obtained illegally will be thrown out; it may have to go a higher level to do it. In Alabama, guns in cars is "normal", along with fishing rods. As for the "Evidence" found in his car, I'm amazed that law enforcement found so little; for the amount of time, money, and resources spent. To all intents, and purposes, now would be a good time for those involved to say, "I'm sorry", and maybe go find someone like Bin Laden; a real bad guy's bad guy.
"Dead or Alive, You're Coming With Me" - Robo Cop
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In Alabama, guns in cars is "normal",
It may be normal, but it is also illegal in circumstances.
If the individual has been a convicted felon in the past, then possessing a gun in their car, even for "hunting" is a crime (illegal possession of a firearm).
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"In Alabama, guns in cars is "normal", along with fishing rods. "
Not if your a convicted felon. Most convicted felons are banned from ever owning a gun.
Frankly a convicted felon with meth and a gun is probably a pretty bad guy.
Should he be let off? Well that is for the supreme court to decided.
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Re:Herring was arrested... (Score:4, Funny)
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Not always. There are exceptions in some cases for inevitability of discovery. The courts don't treat this lightly, though, and in this case, there does not appear to be anything indicating an inevitable discovery of the evidence. They weren't actively looking for the defendant, and they weren't following his car specifically for counter-drug operations.
Re:Herring was arrested... (Score:5, Informative)
I don't understand, shouldn't any evidence obtained under a false warrant be unusable?
It wasn't a search warrant; it was an arrest warrant.
Warrants are not required under any circumstances to search vehicles on public property.
Vehicles are only deemed to have minimal 4th ammendment protection; and can be stopped and examined upon any reasonable suspicion of any type of criminal activity.
Any place in the vehicle where weapons are likely to be stored may be searched freely.
Any other place in the vehicle whatsoever may be searched with probable cause, with no warrant.
Re:Herring was arrested... (Score:5, Insightful)
That is not actually resolved. There are currently several justices (Scalia, Thomas and Roberts being the big ones) who undoubtedly believe that to be so and have written extensively to that effect, but so far that has not been upheld as "the way it is". There are justices (Ginsburg, Souter and Stevens being the most consistent and predictable) who feel that a vehicle is entitled to the same search protections as a home ("effects" are also covered), regardless of what property it is on... with the caveat that if something is visible in a vehicle from public property without entering or unreasonably examining the vehicle it is (as with one's home) fair game.
In any case, I will be surprised if this even makes it to the Supreme Court. I expect that the evidence will be excluded (and the charges inevitably dropped) long before then. I will be completely shocked if the search is upheld.
United States v. Leon. (Score:5, Informative)
I don't understand, shouldn't any evidence obtained under a false warrant be unusable?
Sadly, not necessarily. The "good faith" doctrine says that evidence seized by officers relying on a facially valid warrant that turns out to later be invalid is still usable in court. The warrant must be issued by a neutral, third-party magistrate and the officers cannot have knowingly or recklessly (not negligently) given bad information for purposes of establishing probable cause, but the 4th Amendment is meant to shield against police misconduct and not simple error in the issuance of warrants.
See United States v. Leon [findlaw.com] , 468 U.S. 897 (1984) for the full, gory details. Additionally, the government in this case also relies on Arizona v. Evans, 514 U.S. 1 (1995) which states, basically, that the exclusionary rule did not require suppression of evidence obtained through a police officer's good-faith reliance on an error made by a clerk of the court that had issued a warrant for a person's arrest.
I'm sad to say it, but that latter case is *really* on point for this issue, and EPIC does a miserable job of trying to argue against it. The quality of legal writing between the two briefs is night and day. One takes a line of nearly eighty cases and rigorously applies the facts of the case to the rules found therein, and the other references two cases (one only in the concurrence) and makes a bunch of policy arguments about database systems completely unrelated to that used by the sheriff's office in the case at hand.
EPIC fail.
Why are such examples always so bad? (Score:4, Insightful)
I am against erroneous data. I don't think anyone would be for it (except to manufacture evidence).
So what's the big deal with it? I'll tell you.
The big deal is that if Mr. Herring wasn't an unlicensed gun-toting drug user, the detrimental effects of the bad data would be obvious. But since Mr. Herring is actually a "bad guy" and Americans love to see bad guys put away, it makes it hard for anyone to sympathize with him.
The ACLU couldn't have picked a worse poster child in this case.
Re:Why are such examples always so bad? (Score:5, Insightful)
He could have been found with terrorist propaganda and child porn in his car. A fair number of people actually do have sympathy for his kind of case. A lot of people think drug laws are absurd and some people either don't believe in gun control or at least think it has gotten out of hand.
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We don't THINK it's gotten out of hand. We KNOW.
Re:Why are such examples always so bad? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's really not a bad choice. Most of the people opposed to the ACLU do so because they don't care to admit that they might be wrong in their interpretation of the constitution. Many of them refuse to admit that there's more than one interpretation of the 2nd amendment that comes from reading it. Others want protection from the state intruding on their religion, but want their religion to intrude on the state.
In this case it's important for the basic reason that it's a test case. Is an illegal warrant the basis for a legal search or is it to be considered illegal and the individual allowed a free pass. If you think about it, it is a terribly important issue because of the possibility for abuse.
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The problem with the ACLU's interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is that in all the other Amendments of the Bill of Rights, the ACLU chooses an interpretation which favors citizens rights over that of the state. Bu
Re:Why are such examples always so bad? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because if we allow someone's rights to be infringed because they're a "low-life scum-fuck" that's a step towards infringing on Joe SixPack's rights.
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Because if we allow someone's rights to be infringed because they're a "low-life scum-fuck" that's a step towards infringing on Joe SixPack's rights.
That's a rather redundant statement... aren't they the same person?
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So why did they defend Ollie North of all people?
Or Limbaugh.
What i see in that link is just nationalists caring more about their pride then the ideals they pretend to stand by.
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http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS291&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=aclu+gun+manufacturer [google.com]
Sorry, I can't find one documented example of the ACLU suing gun manufacturers for manufacturing guns. Take your FUD elsewhere.
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I'm opposed to the ACLU because they'll defend some of the nastiest, low-life scum-fucks on the face of the earth
When it comes to rights and procedure you often find out about that after the fact. Like say you perform an illegal search and find out the guy is low-life scum, but you didn't know that. He was just a suspect and you violated his rights. Justifying the way you found out about his guilt with his guilt is clearly nonsense.
Conversely sometime the ACLU will decide to not defend ordinary people who have a legitimate complaint because the case does not fall in line with their political agenda.
As for their claimed political agenda, if they don't protect all rights then find a different organization that will protect the rest or all. It's not a mutually exclusive arrangement, the
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"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State" is a justification for what follows, not a limit.
Doesn't "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." mean the same thing?
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I want to hear you "Constitution says I get to keep my guns no matter what!" people pipe up when the government steps all over that part that goes:
True conservatives would stand with liberals on that one.
Indeed, the 2nd is easily understood (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite simply, the point of the second amendment is for self protection, both against bad guys and against a government which is literally out of control. Anyone who argues otherwise is quibbling over nothing because the truth scares them. The arms protected are exactly what a policeman or ordinary infantry soldier carries. Indeed, it is quite reasonable to allow cannon, since merchant ships of the time had cannon not owned by governments, and so did individuals for the common protection.
If gun haters want to argue whether it is still useful to think of an armed uprising against a government, or even whether it makes sense to allow guns in crowded cities, the solution is not to circumvent the constitution in sneaky ways, the solution is to *change* the constitution. There is even a procedure for that which has been used a couple dozen times.
If the restrictions put on the second amendment were applied to freedom of the press, the only press protected would be manually powered flat bed presses. No power presses, no rotary presses, no newspapers with circulation over a few thousand, no internet, no copy machines, no private printers on private computers. Is that what you want?
It works the other way too. If the degradations put on searches and habeas corpus were applied to guns, we'd have it worse than nowadays. You think magazine capacity is a problem? Wait until you can't even have a flintlock or cap gun or knives with sharp edges or points.
What really burns me up about those who wish to change the constitution thru backdoor sneaky underhanded methods is that they set a precedent for other sneaky backdoor amendments, such as the recent degrading of protection from search and seizure, habeas corpus, etc.
Dammit, there's a process for amending the constitution! If you don't like it the way it is, change it properly, have a proper discussion, but don't sneak around, because all you do is reduce respect for the process and make it easier for the other guys to do the same thing in ways you don't like.
Every time I hear Republicans defend the degradation of the constitution by the Bush regime, I always wonder what they would think of Hillary having the same power they want Bush to have now. Ditto for Democrats who hate guns -- how would you like it if Reagan / Bush / McCain limited your favorite rights exactly as you have limited the second amendment?
You are part of the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
Idiot. Why don't you read what I wrote? I clearly said that encroaching on the constitution for one reason encourages others to encroach for their own reasons, and that the proper way to change the constitution is to actually go thru the amendment process.
And all you want to argue about is one of the encroachments? Feh.
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You say "political agenda" as if the ACLU were not supposed to be a political oriented group, and as if it were hiding a dark secret that prevented them from performing
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Doesn't anyone read [wikipedia.org] anymore?
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Because there aren't any examples that are "good" (Score:5, Insightful)
If they HADN'T found anything on Mr. Herring, what do you think would have happened? Maybe a cursory apology. Probably not. His inconvenience for arrest and search? I suppose he could in theory have cause for a civil action, but against who? The cops who arrested him in good faith they had good information? The county clerk who made a minor paperwork error that went undetected for months? Please. Who's going to bring that case? And how does it not get tossed before a court even cares about the question of whether the information was bad?
Like it or not, if there's going to be a test case on whether it's OK to conduct searches based on "oops!" information, it HAS to be someone who had something to lose--where the results of the bad search end up in court. So it has to be something where something illegal was found in the search.
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You've answered your own question. Unreasonable searches and seizures on innocent people don't result in charges brought against the victim. It's always the criminals who get prosecuted and who need the protection of the Constitution. Also note that the First Amendment is almost always invoked by those we want to censor.
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Unfortunately it is not always just the criminals who get prosecuted. Plenty of innocent people get prosecuted. Something like 25% of court cases end in a not guilty result. It's estimated that something like 5% of guilty verdicts are in error. If you take away these protections you are denying innocent people a chance to clear themselves.
As far as wanting to censor people, the only cases that I am in favor of with that is explicit child pornography and military secrets in time of war. Otherwise I can see n
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Something like 25% of court cases end in a not guilty result. It's estimated that something like 5% of guilty verdicts are in error. If you take away these protections you are denying innocent people a chance to clear themselves.
I'd like to see a source for your statistics. My law professors say that very few criminal cases get a not guilty result because the prosecutor's office has the option of simply not pursuing a weak case, and I'd *love* to see the methodology used to arrive at a "5% of guilty verdicts are in error" number.
Re:Why are such examples always so bad? (Score:5, Insightful)
At this point there are so many laws on the books that cover what many people think of as every-day activities that most people are violating laws on a day-to-day basis without even knowing it.
At this point, it's not about finding the person that violated the law, it's finding the law the person violated.
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You've answered your own question. Unreasonable searches and seizures on innocent people don't result in charges brought against the victim. It's always the criminals who get prosecuted and who need the protection of the Constitution. Also note that the First Amendment is almost always invoked by those we want to censor.
The day that you are wrongly imposed upon or being told to shut up will be the day that you realize your generalizations are reckless.
Re:Why are such examples always so bad? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Mod parent up. The notion of "soverign immunity" of the government is what makes defending rights for criminals so important, because the government has generally held that those who are innocent cannot have "grievances" to petition for redress.
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The very foundation of the "Rule of Law" is that public sympathy or lack there of is irrelevant to the law. When the courts become a popularity contest your have OJ Simpson walking away from a murder as a free man.
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I am for erroneous data. Facts are overrated.
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Because bad people get in trouble easier (Score:3, Interesting)
If I get pulled over for an incorrect warrant and searched, they wouldn't find drugs and guns in may care except if they were legally obtained. And once they figured out the warrant was bad there would be nothing else for them to do. And I wouldn't be in the news, and I would make even a worse ACLU poster child because nothing happened to me.
Now what would help is if I was falsely arrested due to a computer glitch then beaten to a pulp in jail while waiting for it to get sorted out. And if they held on to m
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Obviously law enforcement officials should make every effort to keep databases and such clear from factual error, but we have to accept the fact that human errors will inevitably occur.
I'm glad you agree because I was about to take a certain political parties voter registration list and make minor changes to line it up with a list of known felons. And we'll include lists of people protesting at the convention because there might be reasonable suspicion they're doing something illegal. It's good to know
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That is a fallacy. They didn't have probable cause because the warrant was expired. They thought that they had probable cause. There is a very clear cut legal difference there. The criminal justice system makes people jump through hoop after hoop after hoop. After someone has been on probation, paid fines and done everything that they are obligated t
Re:Why are such examples always so bad? (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. Evidence exclusion exists because it is a good compromise. We sacrifice a little bit of justice for a large gain in liberty.
IANAL (Score:4, Insightful)
IANAL but I'd that this was unwarranted because otherwise it could easily be exploited.
Re:IANAL (Score:5, Funny)
I would agree with but I don't your point.
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Courts have almost always ruled that evidence obtained illegally (i.e., without a search warrant or probable cause) cannot be used in a trial. Although I'm sure there have been plenty of exceptions, this guy has a slim chance of getting convicted unless he was also high at the time or something.
However, the problem here is that there's no incentive for police to obey the law and constitution when going about their daily b
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Cite please? I've make honest mistakes on my taxes several times, some quite major running into the thousands of dollars on the net result in my favor. The IRS caught these, and issued a notice that I owed them the difference. The worst penalty I've run into is a fine that totaled something like $50.
Happened to my Brother-in-law (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Happened to my Brother-in-law (Score:5, Insightful)
If I had a killer robot and I just entered coordinates at random, I am sure I would eventually get all the bad guys, however there might not be any good guys left either.
It would seem that like everybody, you should be cautious of how you use the power you have and if you cannot exercise good judgment, you should not have that power.
Clearly these people are not careful with their power and should therefore have less of it. If a person carries a gun, ( and police do ) then they have additional responsibilities of action that include NOT doing more damage than good, whether it is to the rights of individuals or innocent bystanders. Just because they have uniforms and are certified by the ( State, Local, Schoolboard, FBI, ATF ) they can still do damage and what deterrent is loss of income compared to years in jail. It seems that if a policeman kills somebody by accident, they are assumed to have more rights to act blindly than anybody else when it comes to their responsibility for damage.
I was riding with my daughter the other day and a policeman in a small town stopped me for something and I can't even remember his excuse, but he came to the door of my car with his gun drawn and pointed at my head. I got no ticket, but he did so much damage to my opinion of this country that I find it hard to support any police if they are allowed to wander around threatening people with weapons that they should not be allowed to carry. As a citizen, if I walked up to a stranger and pointed a gun at their head, I would likely go to jail for a long time. They are allowed to do that and just say, "oops, my bad".
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Which state is this? I want to know so I can avoid it if possible.
All of them I think
illegally obtained evidence (Score:5, Interesting)
isn't it customary for the courts to throw out illegally obtained evidence? it's my understanding that this is done so as to discourage prosecutors & law enforcement from doing illegal/warrantless searches.
if the courts routinely allowed illegally obtained evidence/testimony/etc. to be used, then it would encourage law enforcement professionals to encroach on the rights of individuals if they think it will get a conviction. if you don't throw out confessions obtained through torture, then law enforcement will start using torture to gain confessions--it's the same principle.
i know that many people hold personal prejudices against drug users, but a corruption of justice is a corruption of justice, regardless of who it happens to. it just happens to drug users and low income individuals more often because they can't defend themselves, and they have more run ins with the law.
one of my good friends in Chicago was a former heroin addict. he was a really friendly guy and a kind and honest person. however, he started using heroin at a very young age. this inevitably landed him in jail. he's in his late 20's now and has been through the system many times on drug possession charges (never for drug dealing or theft, or anything other than drug possession). and he's recounted to me several occasions where he's been wrongly imprisoned due to clerical error.
one time in particular he'd just finished serving time for a drug offense (i think it was something like a 6 month sentence), and the very weekend he got out he was picked up again and taken back to jail. he hadn't broken any laws, but the patrol vehicle computer showed that he had an outstanding warrant. apparently the warrant was issued while he was doing time for his last sentence. the warrant was for an offense registered in a different county, and so they didn't realize that he was already in prison. he knew that there'd been a mistake, but he couldn't make bail and ended up having to spend another few weeks in jail until it was shown that he'd been falsely imprisoned and the warrant shouldn't have been issued in the first place.
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The problem is, this wasn't an illegal search and seizure. It isn't entrapment, it isn't any of that.
Based upon good faith and probable cause, the vehicle was searched.
I know of a person who had a warrant issued for his arrest for parole violation. Problem was, he HADN'T BEEN RELEASED FROM PRISON YET!!!
Doesn't matter, as the warrant was issued in good faith. Hard to be released when your showing a warrant out for your arrest. He did another couple months, expired his sentence, and then went to the count
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From the article:
At issue is the case of Bennie Herring, an Alabama man who drove to the police station in July 2004 to try to retrieve items from an impounded pickup truck. A Coffee County cop recognized him, asked the clerk to check the database for outstanding warrant.
None was found, so the investigator asked the clerk to call the neighboring Dale county clerk to see if it had a warrant for Herring.
The Dale county clerk found
"Good faith" must not be enough (Score:4, Interesting)
Your post is an excellent argument for why those who claim more authority than the average citizen should never be allowed to use "good faith" alone to excuse a mistake. With the extra power must come extra responsibility to get things right, and the rule for such people must be "if in doubt, don't". The consequences of any system not biased strongly in that direction are far worse than any individual mistake. It's just like the fundamental principle that it is better to risk letting a guilty man go free, at least for now, than to risk sentencing an innocent man erroneously.
Thus in cases like this, I think it would be far better if there was an immediate presumption that no evidence or charges at all connected with the inappropriate search ever have legal standing. Moreover, the person or persons responsible for the mistake should by default be personally liable for their illegal actions just as anyone else would be. There may be some good faith defence in the latter case, but good faith should never take precedence over the safeguard that the former offers. Even in the latter case, one must be careful that the benefits of good faith remain proportionate to the mistake, to avoid the risk of authorities erring on the side of "shooting the innocent man" and escaping the penalty for it later.
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Simple, don't want legal problems, don't fuck up. Bottom line. Not that their isn't a bunch of people wrongfully incarcerated, but the majority DESERVE it.
That's a nice contradiction there. It boggles my mind how you could even write a thing. If there are a bunch of wrongfully incarcerated prisoners, then it's not as "simple" as you state. If you don't want legal problems, don't fuck up, hope you don't fuck up by accident (ever broken a law you didn't know was there? Remember that ignorance of the law is never an excuse), and hope that somebody with power doesn't decide you fucked up even though you didn't. Not as friendly as your "bottom line", but a whole l
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Not that their isn't a bunch of people wrongfully incarcerated, but the majority DESERVE it.
And the minority get to take it up the ass in the showers while you defend the actions of the incompetent as "good faith".
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I think there's a huge confusion in the way people think about this. The prevailing attitude seems to be that the purpose of law is to make money, and that various traps need to be in place to prevent the police making too much money and unbalancing the game.
That's not what law is about.
This person broke the law and was caught. There is no doubt (or no more doubt than usual) that he should be convicted. It is absurd to dismiss any evidence on the basis of how it was obtained—unless the method calls
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If wrongfully obtained evidence is still admissible then the term loses all meaning.
Right now there are two things that stop police from wrongfully gathering evidence. One is that such evidence is not admissible, and thus not very useful to them. And one is that it's illegal, and they can go to jail for it.
The second thing is worthless. Ever hear of a police officer who went to jail because of how he gathered evidence? Didn't think so. Police and prosecutors are on the same side. Do you think a prosecutor,
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Sadly your friend is another victim of the war on drugs.
I wonder what would have happened in the equivalent case where he'd been an alcoholic or a tobacco/coffee addict.
Rich.
Gettier scenario. (Score:3, Insightful)
Hypothetical Gettier scenario:
The officer phones the clerk to ask if there is a warrant for this person's arrest. The clerk wants to trick the officer, so she says there is a warrant when she doesn't think there is. But she is mistaken and there really is a warrant she doesn't know about! The officer makes the arrest in the belief there was a warrant, which there was. Was the officer justified in making the arrest?
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Was the officer justified in making the arrest?
For a less obscure philosophical argument, consider if we required the government to show its work as if it were a math test: no points for deriving the correct answer, incorrectly.
Its not an "error" (Score:2)
When its intentional.
Root Problem (Score:5, Insightful)
The root problem in this case really boils down to whether the officers should be allowed to treat someone's word that a warrant exists as if that were the actual warrant. The correct course of action would be to have kept him in sight until a copy of the actual warrant was in the officer's possession. This is especially so now that police vehicles are routinely equipped with computer and communications gear that can immediately transfer the warrant to the officer on the scene.
Basically, they jumped the gun (no pun intended) here and ended up executing a non-existent warrant.
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Actually, I think that is far to much to ask for. What if you are in California or Texas. And you are in San Diego and the warrant is issued 10 hours away? I think there should be a verification that the warrant is valid PRIOR to arresting the person.
Sorry - in this day and age it could easily be scanned and e-mailed to the police car. I haven't seen one for a while that doesn't have networking now.
Or worse yet, what if the court is closed for a three day weekend? OR as we have in SD, the court is opened once a week.
Easily fixable - create a weekend clerk position. Or if the court is not open more often put in a T1 to the home of the court clerk and give him remote access to the database and forward his desk phone to his home phone.
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Who says the warrant has to be stored at the court? It could be stored at a 24-hour facility, or electronically for immediate retrieval. My concern is treating the metadata about the warrant the same as the warrant itself.
If the warrant turns out to be faulty, rescinded, or otherwise invalid later, then toss the case. Real bad guys WILL be caught again later, it's in their nature to do something that makes it inevitable.
This seems straightforward. (Score:3, Insightful)
If not for the error, there would not be probable cause to stop and search the guy. Therefore, it never happened, and by extension, nothing found was really found. Maintaining our moral standards are far more important than convicting one man. The ends most certainly do not justify the means.
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You're wrong. The 4th amendment is controlled by Supreme Court decisions that provide for a "good faith exception" to the exclusionary rule, meaning that if the officers were executing a warrant in good faith (meaning that they didn't know that there was an underlying clerical
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craterbaiter (Score:2)
This has to be stopped (Score:3, Insightful)
If there is no penalty for errors in government databases, there will be no incentive to clean them. The evidence should be thrown out, and if it happens again, it should always be thrown out. This will mean that unless the government has absolutely clean data in their databases their evidence will be suppressed as a result. The police will have no choice but to ensure their databases are regularly cleaned of error. They essentially have no civil liability (sovereign immunity) for their errors now, if I'm not mistaken, if they are not forced to fix errors or suffer the consequences for their failure to do so, they will not do so.
Cops screamed bloody murder saying police would be destroyed by Miranda [wikipedia.org], and other cases whose names shine as beacons protecting us from the darkness of oppression ( Gideon [wikipedia.org], Escobedo [wikipedia.org], Mapp [wikipedia.org], Seibert [wikipedia.org] ) and others, as bright-line standards. And you know what? Police adapted. They became professional. They did their jobs better when they were forced to behave within constitutional limits. I have a quote from a book I'm writing:
— Judge Edward 4 in Paul Robinson's Instrument of God
Re:Being in the database at all (Score:5, Insightful)
Playing devil's advocate here....
What's to keep the police from having faulty information in the database, either on everyone, or a modifiable "Error" they can just put on people they don't like?
What kind of audits are in place for this information?
I'm sure the jury's still out on whether any country is a member of the "Free world" until the answers are out on this.
Re:Being in the database at all (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. If the government can make an error, then do a legal search based on their own error the government can in practise search anyone at any time. Even if you've never been near the legal system they can just say "whoopsie, someone must have mistyped the SSN" and they're off the hook. The officers who did the search acted correctly but the evidence should be thrown out because it's fruits of the poisoned tree.
I don't understand how this can even be called into question. The article says that "noone disputes the search was unconstiutional" and the good faith exception only applies to "minor or technical errors". In this case it's no detail, it's the single material fact that lead to the search. Without the error there would be no search, no evidence and no case. I can understand allowing evidence for a search that should have taken place but was in some minor way flawed, but not this. No way should it ever be allowed.
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What I read from the summary was that there was a warrant erroneously entered, and that the correction hadn't made it back in time...
On the other hand, I see you haven't seen "playing devil's advocate" in my post either...
Going back to my argument...
"How do you know it's an illegal search?"
The prosecution might be punished if they used erroneous information to get a conviction... But they aren't held onto admitting they had information in the first place...
How do you know what's erroenous and what's not?
Wh
Re:Being in the database at all (Score:5, Insightful)
"already been convicted of a crime."
I have a disorderly conduct charge that I was convicted of. In PA, this is a misdemeanor.
I was pulled over for "running" a stop sign--I had come to a full stop at a 4 way stop, allowed 2 cars to go through the intersection that been at the intersection before me, and I took my turn. An officer ran the stop to my left (where one of the two cars that went through the intersection had taken their turn), I avoided getting slammed in the rear.
The officer subsequently put his lights on, U turned in the middle o the intersection, and pulled me over. He stated I had run the stop in disgust when I asked him what I had done. I stated I had stopped. This went back and forth where I stated I had stopped and he stated I hadn't, and I received a citation for the stop sign "violation" and a disorderly conduct charge; while I was frustrated, I never raised my voice and was respectful the whole time but clearly irritated.
I was found guilty in at the magistrate level and at the county level. I had a passenger in the vehicle who witnessed the whole thing at both hearings. At the magistrate level, the officer claimed I had run the stop sign. At the county level, he stated I had stopped then didn't wait my turn (same traffic code violation under PA law); he had noted on the citation itself that I had "failed to stop." In PA, the county level is de novo, and besides, the magistrate level has no transcript (makes me wonder if it is this way really so prosecution can modify witness claims at the next level on appeal).
So before stupid ass like you states that anyone who has been convicted of a crime is liable for a "good faith" warrant based on past "crimes," you are including in fact people like me who have done nothing wrong.
And in case you meant (but didn't) to only mean "violent" or felony offenders, you might want to look into the 1984 Bail Reform Act and the definition of violent offenses; this is one of the reasons California's 3 strikes law puts minor drug offenders in jail for years, because a "violent" offense is defined legally to include what most people would include non-violent offenses.
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"...you states that anyone who has been convicted of a crime is liable for a "good faith" warrant based on past "crimes," you are including in fact people like me who have done nothing wrong."
He never said that anyone who has been convicted of a crime is liable for as much, read what he said more closely, and then you may not have to consider him a "stupid *ss."
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He never said that anyone who has been convicted of a crime is liable for as much
No, the original poster said
and based on that,
To put these ideas together: cops should be able to search anyone who had ever been charged with a crime at any time regardless of what the pe
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Er, what? So anyone who has ever been involved in the legal system in any way as a defendant immediately forfeits their rights in perpetuity? Good to know that my rights will last all the way until someone accuses me of something.
Re:Only as good as the data... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have no problem (despite all the "stories" here) of this happening. If you weren't doing something illegal...you wouldn't have the issue. If Joe Blow hadn't had drugs in his car the police wouldn't have found it.
You have far more faith your fellow human beings and modern technology than can be reasonably justified. You might want to re-think your position before a database or clerical error puts you in the hot seat.
Hell, it almost happened to me. I was issued a bad ticket by a fat cop with Coke-bottle glasses who was sitting three blocks away at the time. He claimed I passed a school bus with its sign out. That was physically impossible since I was at a 4-way stoplight, the bus was on my left, and I was turning left. The driver was on a cell phone and waved me on. No stop sign was extended.
So I go to court, and the judge tells me that, because of recent changes in the relevant statute, she could no longer take my driving record into account. Automatic six-month suspension. However, the judge looked over at the cop sitting in the corner (you know, the right to face your accuser in court), looked back at me, and asked the prosecutor if there was anything he could do to help me. He pulled out a thick legal tome, and began poring over the wording of the statue. Turned out that the charge could be plead down to a lesser charge, at the judge's discretion. So I ended up with an illegal left turn, got supervision, and paid the fine. End of story, or so I thought.
Six months later, I'm at the local Secretary of State's office trying to renew my driver's license. The woman behind the counter pulled up my record on her computer, and said she was sorry, but they couldn't help me, and would I please go talk to the officer in the little room off to one side.
So in this room is another fat cop, this one with a moustache. He starts shouting at me, calling me a danger to the public, and that it was people like me that get children killed. I kept trying to get the guy to chill, but he was on a roll. After about ten minutes of abuse, I'd had just about enough of this idiot, and lit back into him at max decibels. Eventually the whole facility went silent, everyone listening to me argue with this fucktard, me still not knowing what the hell was going on. This guy couldn't even tell me, all he knew was that I was supposed to be arrested. Civil servant, my ass. Finally I told him to either arrest me or shut the hell up. Oddly, he chose to shut up and I left.
It turned out that either because of a technical problem with their database system, or an error by the court clerk, that ticket had gone through as a conviction for the original charge, my license had been suspended and an arrest warrant issued. I had been, of course, completely oblivious of this, and was utterly dumbfounded when I found out.
Had I been pulled over for a busted taillight or an expired license sticker, I'd have been arrested on the spot. For half a year I'd been driving on a suspended license with an arrest warrant in my name, and nobody in the system had the decency to tell me. A letter stating that my license had been suspended, something to let me know there was a problem. Nope, just fucking arrest me, print me, and let the courts sort it out.
So don't give me this crap. The system makes mistakes, lots of mistakes, and people get regularly shafted because of them. This "if you weren't doing anything illegal you wouldn't have the issue" philosophy of yours is morally bankrupt, and has no connection with reality whatsoever. People aren't perfect (either us regular citizens or those work work in law enforcement.) Yet, you seem willing to grant government officials a veneer of perfection that they have not earned, and certainly do not deserve.