Ebay Fined $61M By French Court For Sales of Fake Goods 399
A court in France ordered eBay to pay more than 61 mega-dollars to the parent company (LVMH) of Givenchy, Fendi, Marc Jacobs and Louis Vuitton, because a user sold fake goods on the website. eBay has been sued by other 'luxury goods' vendors (such as Tiffany's (US), Rolex (Germany) and L'Oreal (EU)). Problems stem from some companies demanding that their merchandise (even legal merchandise) not be displayed nor sold as it is a violation of their 'property.' Others have complained that eBay is too slow to take down claims. Apparently eBay was hit with two violations: 1) eBay illegally allowed legitimately purchased and owned products made by LVMH to be resold on its website by 3rd parties not under the control of LVMH, and 2) not doing enough to protect LVMH's brands from illegal sales. eBay has said it will appeal. So eBay is to know what products every company allows to be sold before allowing them to on auction?
(There's also coverage at Yahoo News.)
Update: 07/01 17:15 GMT by T : That's LVMH throughout, rather than LVHM, as originally rendered.
Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Want to resell your Corrola? Sorry, you have to get Toyota's permission first.
Want to resell your house? Not unless the original builder says okay!
Want to sell your soul? Well, that one you can do. Just become a French judge!
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Insightful)
The French companies are laughing until they're sued by the raw goods producing companies and told they can't distribute their handbags.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Funny)
In other news, the cows have filed charged Louis Vuitton with Mass Moo-der as well as filing a Motion for Summary Judgemoont against the plaintiffs.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Funny)
Even by pun standards, that's udderly horrible. I have quite a beef with you, my friend.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Stop mentioning everything that behooves your spotty opinions.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know who you are, but you have quite a bit of nerve to come stampeding into a conversation you weren't involved in. Have you no manners? You act like you were born in a barn. I suggest you think before you post next time, lest you re-veal yourself to be more of a boor than you already have.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:4, Funny)
I think you should quit with this cock-and-bull story you keep slinging...those old style politics should be put out to pasture, along with the rest of the sour milk. Or perhaps you think the rules should be chucked? You keep trying to flank 'round and shank me in the ribs, but I will kick your runp 'til it's rare!
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Funny)
I've never seen someone so shamelessly milking a pun.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a good point. Where does something become "restricted" from further sales -- at the retail level? At the wholesaler? at the initial processor of raw materials?? at the point of origin (mines, farms, sheep, etc.) for said raw materials?
I can just see it... "You may not resell this sweater without permission from all the sheep whose wool was used to create it."
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
My dad raises sheep. Frankly I think if they weren't shorn regularly the poor things would turn into immobile bleating balls of fluff. If sheep were smart enough to know what giving permission meant I bet they'd trot right up to the clippers.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:4, Informative)
So basically like what we have in the music and software worlds pretty much? You don't quite own that CD, you're just allowed to use it because the product they leased to you is on it ... something like that?
I know what you're getting at but, under normal circumstances, there's nothing stopping you from buying and selling used CDs. Now, copying/distributing the content on those CDs via different media - That's where the system falls apart.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Insightful)
And yet they wonder why the French Echonomy is sagging.
If the seller fears retribution from using and reslling french products. They will not get French products in the first place. 3rd party sales while doesn't direcly effect the bottom line it does get product awarenes of your goods.
If you get a used Toyota and you love it. If you choose to get a new car you may buy a Toyota. or other perople see that your used toyota has lased so long and they want a new car they would get a new Toyota, also the person who has sold the car if they liked it the chances are they would use the money to buy a new car of the same make, if they have brand loyality to that make.
I understand forgeries, as it could tarnish the brand names. But for legit items let them resell them.
eBay doesn't care about finding real fakes (Score:5, Informative)
I understand forgeries, as it could tarnish the brand names. But for legit items let them resell them.
You are right of course but eBay's problem is that eBay cannot be bothered to seriously check. The ONLY way to be reasonably sure an item is not a fake is to inspect it in person and have a full documentation trail detailing who bought it, where they bought it, and when. This is what they do in the art world to authenticate pieces. Since eBay never physically inspects ANY merchandise sold on their site, there is no way they can possible determine if an item is a fake.
From my own experience I've sold some high end luxury goods on consignment through eBay. (Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Rolex, etc) In each case I had a full documentation trail, the parties were known to me or my close associates, and we had the items physically inspected by an expert in that merchandise to ensure authenticity. Through eBay's VeRO [ebay.com] program we were accused several times of pedaling fakes even though we had the real thing. There was no opportunity for us to prove that we had authentic merchandise though we certainly could have done so were there any means to plead our case. Our auctions were summarily taken down and we were given strikes with no recourse of any kind. To be sure there are a TON of actual fakes on eBay but eBay sure as hell can't tell the difference. Worse, to avoid lawsuits they've given brand holders full power to remove auctions that they should have no power to influence under the first sale doctrine [wikipedia.org].
The problem is that eBay's incentives are all wrong - they just want their fees and no lawsuits - and they've handed responsibility (through VeRO) to trademark and brand holders whose incentives actually contradict the law. Louis Vuitton doesn't want ANY of their products sold via eBay regardless of authenticity. So eBay users get screwed in the deal either way. Sellers can have their auctions pulled for no good reason and buyers can't be reasonably sure of authentic products because eBay refuses to check. The winners here are definitely not you and me.
Re:eBay doesn't care about finding real fakes (Score:5, Interesting)
VERO is also the program through which Ebay has given Scientology carte blanche to illegally infringe on first-sale rights of people with used RTC gear. Until Ebay takes a modicum of responsibility for the rampant and obvious illegal abuse of VERO (or cancels it altogether) I want nothing to do with Ebay.
Unfortunately, everything Ebay's help pages say about canceling your account is a falsehood. I've been asking them to close my account since February and I am still able to log in and I still get their weekly spam messages about my favorite sellers.
Ebay was cool back when it had something resembling competition. Now it's just another bloated, useless pig doing the bare minimum it must to continue collecting monopoly rents.
Seems VERO upsets all sides. (Score:4, Interesting)
Its funny to see the VERO program criticised for being too strict, as I'm sure given ebays incompetence, it can sometimes be.
My experience with VERO is that it is useless to actually do anything about blatantly stolen property (in other words, people duplicating full versions of games on a CD burner, and openly selling them on ebay). In cases like this, ebay are VERY VERY slow to respond, and take no serious action against the sellers, sometimes removing a listing, rarely banning an account (new account takes a few hours).
For smaller IP holders like me, ebay and google are both unresponsive, disinterested bastards. Try getting pirated content removed from a blogger blog, for example...
Quixotic lawsuits (Score:3, Interesting)
You could have sued Ebay too...
Not really. At the time I was making a significant part of my income selling stuff on eBay. Suing them would have been cutting off my nose despite my face. Not to mention that I do not have the money to fight a multi-billion dollar corporation over the loss of a few hundred dollars in listing fees and lost sales. Plus even if I won (which I wouldn't) the damages I could collect would be insufficient to seriously cause eBay to change practices anyway. Only real hope of that would be some sort of a class
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, interesting story, and I'd be really interested to know where you took your business, since any competitor to eBay would be an interesting place to explore.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Insightful)
I would say it DOES affect the bottom line. Let's say I'm choosing between a Toyota and a Honda, pretty much equivalent models for $20,000 each. If I know I can resell the Toyota five years from now for $10,000 but that Honda won't let me resell the Honda ever, well, the Toyota just became a lot cheaper than the Honda in the long run!
Now, some people may not think this way when it comes to designer bags - but a LOT do. There are many women who can only afford to carry around a collection of $500-1000 bags because they keep one for a couple of months then sell it to a consignment shop for half price to help buy the next one. Still an expensive hobby, but suddenly within the reach of someone who's upper-middle-class instead of only celebrities.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Insightful)
The example you give is an extreme case where it sounds like the market was flooded with used items due to the company screwing over their resellers, plus those people could have afforded new ones if the used ones hadn't been available.
People buy cars with the intention of selling them after a few years. People who buy older used cars often can't afford the new ones anyhow. If a car manufacturer suddenly stopped allowing their cars to be sold used, they would get far fewer new purchases because of it. Same for these people and their handbags - all the people who buy designer items BECAUSE they can then sell them at a consignment shop later. The people who then buy them on consignment could never afford them new. Cutting off any sale of a used handbag would result in fewer new sales, because the people who had been buying then selling would stop AND the people who had been buying used couldn't afford to start buying new.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There are two pretty legitimate sides of this argument. (1) an individual has a right to sell the stuff that she owns, and (2) a company has a right to protect their "brand".
I don't know what the EBay policy is on selling "fake" items, but if the companies care so much about "defending their brand" they should feel obligated to "re-buy" their products from customers who no longer have a use for such things. That would seem to balance the resale market.
Basically, if Tiffany's, Rolex, and L'Oreal will
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:4, Informative)
Never buy anything with PayPal that you don't fund with your credit card. Then, when something like this happens, call your credit-card company and request a chargeback.
That will get PayPal's attention and your money refunded. PayPal doesn't understand any language that doesn't include the term "chargeback."
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I can see the parents point, though. There is something fundamentally annoying about the "I Am Rich" bling, especially the stuff that really isn't much better than average priced stuff, but only exists as a very expensive brand name. Showing off your wealth (for the sake of showing it off) is at least crass, if not arrogant.
I personally don't have anything against people with more money than me, but I really dislike people who have to constantly make it known that they have more money than me.
Idiotic stat
Re:arrogant asshole (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
It wasn't the point of the trial. LVMH even said (French TV) that reselling second-hand handbag was NOT the subject, because reselling is legal in France.
The main problem is the number of pure falsifications you can find on eBay, and lot of users doing this seems purely "professional" in this kind of fake business.
as opposed to, say, Echelon? (Score:2, Interesting)
The French government and courts have a long history of issuing prejudiced laws and decisions in favor of French companies (especially in cases where the opposition are American or British companies), but this is disturbing even by their standards.
As opposed to how the US does things [google.com]? C'mon.
Re: (Score:2)
Want to resell your Corrola? Sorry, you have to get Toyota's permission first.
Not really. As I understand it this is because "a user sold fake goods on the website", not legitimate stuff. This is like selling a counterfeit Toyota, witch is illegal, IRL AND on eBay. I am pleased to see that eBay is being held accountable for all the rip-offs users sell on that Website. It's like a street corner with all kinds of criminals who sell counterfeit fake goods, making buyers believe they are original "genuine" (TM by Microsoft).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The French government and courts have a long history of issuing prejudiced laws and decisions in favor of French companies (especially in cases where the opposition are American or British companies), but this is disturbing even by their standards. While ostensibly about counterfeit goods, this ruling goes FAR beyond that--giving the original producer full control of resell rights for even LEGITIMATE goods.
Of course, there are fewer French companies with an international reach than there are US companies, so this may explain that. When <foreign> company sues a French one it never makes the headlines after all (except here, sometimes).
However this does not explain the number of brain dead decisions by the local (yes, I'm French and live in Paris) courts that have happened lately. Now there *is* a cottage industry of resellers of fake handbags, mostly ordinary, everyday people, that supplement their incom
Not about fake goods at all (Score:5, Insightful)
It will be interesting to see what Brussels has to say about this.
Re:GO USA!!! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Insightful)
"The French government and courts have a long history of issuing prejudiced laws and decisions in favor of French companies"
The US Government and courts have a long history of issuing prejudiced laws and decisions in favour of US companies (look at online gambling and a billion other things)
The British Government and courts have a long history of issuing prejudiced laws and decisions in favour of British companies (see the fiasco around BAE systems and the serious fraud office being stopped from investigating them for "National Security" reasons)
Everyone's at it. And the people of the whole world are the losers.
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:4, Interesting)
Any companies that the government tries to pull this stunt on should just move elsewhere. I'm sure there would be a public outcry if eBay said "fine, we're not dealing with you jerks anymore". I've heard that the French public are quite good at their protesting - they brought the country to a standstill when the government tried to increase fuel taxes..
Re: Control is on "name", not item (Score:3, Interesting)
The subtlety that the French law turns on, I believe who owns the name of the object. It's complete caca, but but is an important distinction. If someone resold LVMH's toilet water as 'toilet water' (no label), then there would be no issue. It's when you use the name on the product.
I'm not sure how else you refer to an item without using its name. But having rules about language -- who may say what (some countries have official bodies to rule on grammar and word usage! ;^/ ). But I think part of the pr
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:4, Informative)
The "Not for Individual Sale" has to do with FDA regulations. Packaged food products sold in the USA are required to have certain information on the label, including, but not limited to, nutritional information and information about how to request a refund.
Those individual Reese cups do not have the nutrition information on the packages, and thus are not to be sold individually in the USA.
There are certain other types of products (health and beauty aids as well as medications) that fall under this general rubric as well. There are certain requirements on the labels that are needed to permit the sale of an individual package.
I find it curious that some stores where I live will sell individual cigarettes at a cost that is clearly about twice what the proportionate price from the pack would be. I have often wondered if that was illegal due to the Surgeon General's Warning required to be on all tobacco product packages.
Slightly different issue.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, on the surface, your argument seems to have merit. However, let me drop one example on you. Take (or rather, purchase) an 8 pack of Reeses Peanut Butter Cups. You know, the pack of individually wrapped candies? Each one states quite clearly on the packaging that they are not for individual sale. You will find that this practice of designating the individual portions of a multi-pack as "Not For Individual Sale" is quite common.
So we find that if you want to resell your candy legally, you can't. Sure, you will argue that there is a huge difference between a car and a peanut butter cup. But if you did, you would be missing the point. If you purchase something that comes with an attached contractual agreement NOT to resell it, or purchase something with an attached contractual agreement not to resell it outside of the producing company's authorized distributors, then indeed the producer has full legal control over resale rights.
You may have a point but you picked a terrible example. If you go into a retail establishment and buy your peanut butter cups, you are free to do whatever you want with them, no matter what it says on the package. If you run a lemonade stand and want to offer those cups as well, you are free to do so, you entered into no contract with either Reeses or the retailer. Reeses would have absolutely no recourse under US law to stop the sale.
I don't really have experience with high-end perfumes or handbags, but
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It has been proven time and time again that you do not have to sign a contract to be contractually bound. Do you sign a reciept when you get gas and pay at the pump with your card? Yet you are contractually bound to pay for that gas.
And no, you are not free to do as you choose with something once you purchase it. Just because you THINK we should be able to do whatever we want with what we just bought, does not mean it is so. If you dispense gasoline into a non-approved container (milk jug), and a cop wa
Re:Even by petty French standards, this is sad (Score:5, Informative)
First sale? (Score:5, Insightful)
Does France not have anything along the lines of the 'first sale' doctrine?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
No, but they really should have a "first, duck!" rule. Even public displays of their government at work [mirror.co.uk] can be very dangerous.
Re:First sale? (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed they do. It's called "Exhaustion of Rights" and is an EU-wide legal doctrine. At least in Germany, interpretations of this have gone so far as to completely void the "no resale" clauses in licenses for products like AutoCAD and various OEM releases from M$, but I'm not sure if the French interpret it quite as broadly.
Here's the Wikipedia article, for what its worth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaustion_of_rights [wikipedia.org]
Troll? Nice.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I take it someone with mod points and no knowledge of France had a stick up his butt.
Look. I lived there for nearly 20 years. Some things are great about it, some things suck. But there are a couple of things that are critical to know if you want to have any chance at understanding how the French work:
- The state - and its bureaucracy - is the foundation of the nation.
- It's a country that is split along many lines.
- It's a country with a (self-defined) mission.
- It is conservative, but has a history of progressing through revolutions.
- Art and culture come first.
- Anglo-Saxon style survival of the fittest and invididualism is abhorred.
Pretty much everything follows from that.
L@@K (Score:5, Funny)
Reason to love America (Score:4, Insightful)
IIRC, Americans enjoy the right to sell any of their possessions, provided they acquired them legally.
I respectfully disagree (Score:3, Insightful)
While I am not certain of the law (especially internationally), if you purchase counterfeit goods without knowing they're counterfeit, you have committed no crime and thus acquired them legally. Of course, once they're recognized as counterfeit, the police are within their obligation to seize them. I don't think the person who purchased the goods, barring some complicity, would be in any trouble.
Slashlawyers?
Re:Reason to love America (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So it is simply up to EBay to ensure it is not facilitating the anonymous selling of stolen or misrepresented products.
As for counterfei
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
EBay is simply an auction house, facilitating the auctioning of products.
Ebay is not just a simple auction house. They're obligated to follow local laws within the areas they sell, and it's enormously complicated. Otherwise they'd just be a huge fencing operation for stolen or illigitimate goods (which one could arue they are, but that's another story.)
So the question becomes whether Ebay did everything required by law to stem the sale of conterfeit goods. I would imagine right now any company who has ever had their goods copied and sold on Ebay is on the phone with their lawye
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullshit. I can buy as many "counterfeit" goods I want and no one can say a damn thing about it. Suppose I think the "Rilex" is actually a better watch than the real deal, I can certainly buy one. Even the definition of "counterfeit" is entirely determined by who wants to sue to protect their copyright, etc. (aside from counterfeit money), but that is strictly between the "original" manufacturer and whoever is making and/or selling the fakes, not the buyers.
Once I
Mega-dollar??? (Score:2)
Is that one up version of the super dollar [wikipedia.org].
And yes, I know its technically correct but it's also ultra-geek even by slashdot standards.
Re: (Score:2)
Is that one up version of the super dollar.
Yes it is. And soon someone will become the first to make 1 Giga-dollar and become
*drum roll*
a gigadollionaire
Not 'property' (Score:4, Informative)
It doesn't matter that the term is enclosed in quotes in the submission. We're talking about trademarks here. If these companies don't take action regarding this they will be allowing their trademarks to be diluted, making them more and more difficult to defend.
This has nothing to do with IP.
Any defendant in court for trademark infringement can bring up the fact that the plaintiff is allowing eBay to sell thousands of cheap imitations. And they would win the case based on that, probably.
Trademark law pretty much requires things like these be done, and the companies have no choice but to go after the entity facilitating the sales.
It's not nice, but that's what it is.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
But it's not only about conterfeit goods (that should actually be banned, I'm OK with that) - it's about reselling genuine, original and legally acquired goods. Read the summary again, this time more carefully.
Re: (Score:2)
Reading the article, there are two cases here. Ebay was fined because they haven't done enough to prevent counterfeit goods being sold and allowing legitimate goods to be sold outside their normal distribution channels. In the first case, the manufacturer has every right to protect their trademarks. It's not that Ebay isn't trying; the complaint is that Ebay doesn't do it fast/good enough.
The second case is that certain companies wanted to ensure that you could only buy their products from them or their
Laughed Out of Court (Score:2, Informative)
This would get laughed out of court in the United States.
First Sale doctrine.
God Bless America!
Blind to the facts (Score:5, Insightful)
"The Rolex trademark recordation with Customs indicates "Import of Goods Bearing Genuine Trademarks or Trade Names Restricted." This means that genuine Rolex products can only be imported with the permission of the trademark owner, Rolex Watch U.S.A. Inc. A private individual can hand carry one Rolex watch from a trip overseas without obtaining permission. Bring in more than one, and they will all be seized as a trademark violation. Purchasing a Rolex from overseas by mail is also a trademark violation." Title 19 U.S.C. 1526(a) and (b)
Buy a legitimate Rolex from a foreign seller on eBay and try having it sent to you, and see how your tune changes.
Received from eBay yesterday, revised terms! (Score:5, Informative)
The important change is in the liability section:
Stupid and dangerous (Score:5, Interesting)
This is not the first time that French courts show a complete misunderstanding of how the Internet works... And this goes even further than net economics.
Most french used cars are still sold via a single newspaper called "La Centrale des Particuliers". Should this newspaper verify that each car is rightfully owned by its seller ? I cannot imagine any judge trying to enforce this...
Hopefully, this judgment shall be broken by the "Cour de Cassation", because it does not make any sense. Maybe the judge was only trying to get some publicity. This happens a lot,
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I sometimes think rather the opposite is the problem... The 'net and many of it's denizens don't understand how the real world works and don't think they should have to anyhow. As if the 'net was some free form construct completely unconnected to the real world.
Craig'slist has the right idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
While it is VERY silly to expect EBay to prevent all counterfeit items AND that whole resale of trademarked items is scary, it might point out a flaw in their business model. Consider a "consignment" store or pawn shop that takes a cut of each sale and is stocked with stolen and fake items. Eventually, if you have enough of this nonsense, I think it is fair to consider that store a fence and not a legitimate business.
The more EBay takes a "cut" of each sale, the more they become part of the transaction. Perhaps a flat fee. I am sure EBay wants to make as much profit as possible, but if they become a party to each transaction they can't help but take on some liability.
Re: (Score:2)
http://paris.en.craigslist.org/clo/693065258.html
Agenda fonctionnel LOUIS VUITTON moyen modÃle en cuir épi noir.
Occasion mais trÃs peu servi et en excellent état. L'agenda est livré avec les intercalaires et des pages répertoires et de notes blaches et de couleur ainsi que des pochettes carte de visites. L'agenda est vendu 335 euros neuf en boutique. Fermoir avec bouton pression. 6 anneaux (taille standard, vous trouverez des recharges sans aucune dif
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
As far as I knew, they had their own version of a take-down notice, and insisted that various companies search for their knockoffs online.
This hurts eBay how? (Score:3, Informative)
eBay, while not a friend of mine, is a great tool to ascertain value in various markets. I use eBay daily to judge pricing for items I want to buy, or items I may wish to sell, notably collectibles (I hate collectibles, but own some). eBay's overhead is always passed on to sellers.
When eBay gets hit with a judgment for allowing someone else to sell a product, that judgment will only be passed on to sellers in the future. $60m is not a big figure, and considering that eBay lists hundreds of millions of items annually, the cost to offset this judgment as passed on to sellers is less than a penny per item. Not a huge cost to eBay.
The trademark holders are the ones who have a lot to fear, though, which is why they're going after eBay in friendly jurisdictions. I've seen some knockoff items sold online, and they're fairly good, and in some cases better quality, than the originals. With the coming economic recession, I'm sure many previous buyers of the overpriced consumer goods are likely pulling out of buying new products, so the trademark holders need these judgments collected just to keep their heads above water.
eBay should fight this, strongly, because they are merely a middle man, and they do offer the ability of a company to pull auctions if they're deemed illicit or illegal. Yes, eBay is probably slow on pulling every auction, but the fact that the market shows a demand for a given product, even a knock-off, means that the market isn't going away. Surely it will only hurt the trademark holders more when the news media tells consumers that knock-off products are so readily available and so cheap.
Good luck, eBay, I hope you win the appeal. If not, you'll just pass the cost on to sellers, and no one will be concerned a year or two from now.
Sales tax revolt (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds like a perfect excuse for the French to stop paying sales tax. If the item doesn't actually belong to you, why should you be responsible for paying for it?
Oh, and I think LVHM might want to explain to government why they've been hiding at least $61M of their property from the tax authorities.
Two problems and some sanity... (Score:5, Insightful)
Before everyone gets on their high horses about this, remember:
1) French companies sued mainly because fake goods were sold on eBay. Selling fake stuff (anywhere, on the net and off) is a big problem for French luxury companies.
2) French companies also sued to prevent people selling real luxury goods at cut prices. This is abusive since it criminalizes legal owners and sellers in order to protect their 'official' resellers. However, eBay has appealed and I am pretty certain this will be struck down by the French courts.
Finally, of course, this leaves the problem of certifying that, let's say a Chanel bag, is the real thing on eBay and not a fake. This could be helped by supplying some sort of authenticity voucher that sellers could produce if asked by eBay.
That would solve the problem: eBay could simply say to a seller "please show us the voucher that says this is the genuine article or pull your offer". Yes, I know, what's to say the seller is not going to produce a fake voucher, but still.
The thing with France right now is that they are trying to combine two things: e-commerce and checking that articles sold are genuine. Not an easy thing to pull off, and these fscking French companies are not taking the right path (suing instead of cooperating). Then again, maybe eBay just refused to cooperate, and they thought suing was the easiest way to obtain results and a more cooperative eBay.
So - as strange as it may seem right now - this could have a positive impact on the quality of eBay auctions. Think about it for a moment, before posting stupid French jokes.
Re: (Score:2)
I hope that this is struck down, but I don't think it is so certain. European companies have already used the courts to prevent "parallel imports" -- otherwise known as gray market imports -- items legally bought
Re: (Score:2)
Now the specific response. As always, if a person is using a trademark without a license, which is all that is happening in this case, then absolutely go afte
Actually, this is good (Score:2)
I bought a "Sony" Memory Stick Pro Duo 8GB from ebay the other week.
It's a fake. Annoyed the hell out of me. It works and is 8GB but it's slow as hell.
Unfortunately I can't find a way to raise a dispute on ebay except "contact the seller", and when I try that it says the seller is no longer a member of ebay...
So yeah, it would be nice to have some assurance that what I'm buying is the real thing.
(I agree that this ruling is ridiculous if it allows companies to control resale of their goods, but getting coun
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
yeah, it's a good thing to look out for.
"digital-stuff-uk" had a feedback rating of ~4500 though. Most likely they just got caught a little while before I noticed what was wrong.
Re: (Score:2)
Ebay stores do indeed suck.
Here in the UK there's a lot of stuff on there that's cheaper than what you can buy in a "real" online store. Wii controllers for instance. There's a huge differential between the price for a UK wiimote and one shipped in from Hong Kong.
I'm also not sure about amazon marketplace sellers now. I know that the dispute procedure is a lot easier with amazon, but the market seems flooded with fake MS Pro Duo stuff and amazon don't sell them themselves. If you go to the page for them the
Legal Disclaimer of Sales for eBay (Score:2, Funny)
Could you fix the Company name in the Summary ? (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.lvmh.com/ [lvmh.com]
At the very least if you are going to capitalize the company reference multiple times throughout the article, please work on getting the 4 letters in the correct order..
A company can dictate what I can sell? (Score:2)
First sale doctrine doesn't hold anymore?
Hey, this is great, you know, from now on I can dictate to my employer that he may not resell my work...
Re: (Score:2)
yeah, and your employer will also say that you may not WORK for him anymore either =P
Cisco's next! (Score:2)
Cisco will be next on the bandwagon. They've been trying to stop second-hand sales of their equipment for years.
Playing Devil's Advocate (Score:3, Interesting)
eBay does let a lot of counterfeit and bootlegged products sell and they never seemed too concerned about removing them. I tried an experiment where I reported about 40 obviously bootlegged DVDs, and a few sellers who deal heavily in them. A few days later, not one auction pulled, not one user banned.
Until they get sued, they don't have a fiscal reason to pull an auction of bootlegs.
Chilling the venues... (Score:2)
Crude snark aside, I wonder if, in the long term, this sort of thing will reduce the cachet associated with these sorts of brands? The marketing of luxury stuff is heavy on invocations of status, and ownership, and quasi-aristocratic tradition. None of these things are even remotely compatible with goods that are considered to be controlled by the "IP rights-holder" for
the French don't have a First Sale doctrine equiv? (Score:2)
Problems stem from some companies demanding that their merchandise (even legal merchandise) not be displayed nor sold as it is a violation of their 'property.'
Do the French have some sort of equivalent to the first sale doctrine ruling [wikipedia.org]?
I think Ebay is wrong here... (Score:2)
but only because they set the precedent... Ebay is constantly pulling auctions with little or no warning from people based on companies asking them too without really looking into "why". In some cases it's very legitimate, like say Blizzard not wanting people to sell their WoW accounts and so they work with Ebay to pull them down. On the other hand it can be something we see as silly as the case of LVHM not wanting their products sold by 3rd parties.
Name Brand, Designer items are expensive because their is
Credit Check! (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, of course an individual has every right to sell their own merchandise, but when criminals attempt to sell counterfeit items it's also a (good) companies prerogative to thwart common crooks from stealing their property. Ebay should implement a credit check. This wouldn't solve the problem but it sure would help. I don't want to buy fake goods any more than I want to buy stolen goods from an 18 year old who stole jewlery from her grandmother so she could
Why do business in France? (Score:3, Interesting)
Considering how often eBay gets sued in French courts, eBay management might want to consider doing a cost-benefit analysis of doing business in France in the first place. I'm not jumping on the knee-jerk anti-French bandwagon here -- it's their country, and they can run it any damn way they please -- but from a purely practical business standpoint, the barrage of lawsuits in the French market would give me pause, personally, if I was on the eBay board.
Maybe this is good (Score:3, Interesting)
I was sold a fake Kingston elite pro SD card. Those are one of the few SD cards with SLC Flash memory, 100.000 write/erase cycles. So, I was pretty adamant I wanted the real "elite pro", but got a forgery, which was visible from the very poor quality of print on the label as well as the packaging. Also, I had a few originals I could compare against. Finally, the cards failed to pass a few tests I threw at them, so I was adamant I wanted my money back. I notified eBay, but they never did a damned thing about this case.
I hope $60+ million will make eBay listen to their buying customers (not only their bigger sellers), when they report a forged item.
And forged memory cards and flash drives are massively present on eBay. If it's from China, Hong Kong or Australia, it's almost certainly a fake.
The "designers" need to be taken down a notch (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure everyone caught it, but for yet more emphasis:
1) eBay illegally allowed legitimately purchased and owned products made by LVMH to be resold on its website by 3rd parties not under the control of LVMH, and 2) not doing enough to protect LVMH's brands from illegal sales
LVMH can tell their retailers how to sell the products, as they have a direct contractual relationship. They CANNOT tell the end-user, or anyone else beyond that first hop, what to do with it, what to charge for it, or which orifice to insert it. There's no licensing agreement, you don't have to sign a 2-page contract in order to buy a stupid shiny watch or pink bag. There's no LVMH auditor that comes to your dressing room and checks your papers every time you spritz on a bit of Eau-de-Poopoo.
Next point: illegal sales (counterfeit items). Ebay does not handle the actual items. Ebay does not have omniscience and superman laser vision. Ebay has no way to even guess that a seller is peddling fakes. In many cases, even the end-user can't tell the fake from the original (which says a lot about how cheap the real one is!). With the intrinsic right of resale, you can't outlaw resale, so the guy selling fakes is indistinguishable from a reseller (well, except for his plentiful stock, delivered every week from Singapore)
The fact that a French court actually upheld this ridicule tells me Ebay should withdraw its services from France, along with all its subsidiaries and sister companies. If France wants to be hostile toward online businesses, then they're more than welcome to do without. Some smaller, skeevier company will fill in the void, until they get burned as well. The French government is a mockery, and everyone has the freedom to stand at their border, point, and laugh.
Cockroach scatter (Score:3, Insightful)
Example: You can't buy a gun on eBay. I think it was after Columbine that eBay voluntarily exited the gun category. Since then there are a bunch of auction sites specifically for guns.
By keeping one big market, it will be far easier for LV, Tiffany, and others to manage the counterfit & legit gray market. This is basically another example of an old company failing to understand online commerce.
Re:Mega-dollars? (Score:5, Funny)
When the hell did that become any sort of standard?
Three kilodays ago.
Re:Mega-dollars? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Mega-dollars? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Either I missed a really obvious joke or I'm otherwise not understanding. French is the official language in France, is it not? Why would it be an issue that business meetings in France have to be conducted in French?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As I remarked elsewhere the rules are being broken left right and center, but they're in place just the same and that makes no sense at all to me.
Especially not when parties would voluntarily use a different language (such as English).
I personally walked out of one meeting a couple of years ago after being told that only French was acceptable because of a government requirement.
Too bad I was the guy representing a well paying customer, yes, I speak French but not good enough to get the finer points in a ver
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Because people should be free to communicate in any language that they choose to use regardless of what the government dictates.
Of course plenty of companies break these rules because they are ridiculous to begin with but the fact that the rules exist is evidence of a very cramped world view. France still has trouble to come to terms with no longer being a super power any more.
The end result of all these silly rules is that certain meetings simply don't take place, companies avoid doing business in France.
F
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Those international businesses should have employees on hand that speak French if they wish to do business in France. If anything it should be up to the business holding the meeting on what language should be spoken. They may want to speak English or Russian to please the client more, but a law forcing private businesses to speak the national language is just stupid.
If you come into my house I expect you to not smoke and speak English. I don't have to accommodate you and allow smoking and to speak some o
Re: (Score:2)
Did you know that business meetings in France have to be in French ?
Yeah, and? Many Americans want it so that everything has to be in English, no Spanish allowed. I could see a large percentage from at least one party in the US in favor of a similar law here dictating what language all advertising and business meetings have to be in.
You know, if you have to legislate your language.. (Score:3, Insightful)
If you have to legislate the use of your language, isn't that just an admission that it ain't that great?
In English, we just take words from anywhere. Nobody makes us speak it. We don't see it as "polluted" by having French, Greek, Latin, Germanic or any other sort of words in it. It makes it "rich" and "interesting".
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually they do not.
English is not even the official language of the US, I only have wikipedia handy as a reference and we all know I could have just edited that page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States [wikipedia.org]
But I swear I didn't, really...
Re: (Score:2)
it's called 'franglais' :)