UK Teen Cited For Calling Scientology a "Cult" 995
An anonymous reader writes "A 15-year-old in the UK is facing prosecution for using the word 'cult' to describe the Church of Scientology at an anti-Scientology demonstration in London earlier this month. According to the City of London police at the scene, the teen was violating the Public Order Act, which 'prohibits signs which have representations or words which are threatening, abusive or insulting.' There's a video of the teen receiving the summons from the City of London police at the demonstration (starting about 1 minute in), and now he's asking for advice on how to handle the court case."
Re:Whats the difference? (Score:3, Informative)
Religion = Large Popular cult.
Cult is a root in cultivate, where all religions were at one point cults. However in popular use cults tend to benefit a majority of people, where religious are institutions whose goal is to benefit society. I'm not saying that their methods always benefit society, but that's the ideal. Also cults tend to be secretive. For example, you ask a Christian their beliefs, they'll tell you they believe in a guy who walked on water, healed the sick, turned water into wine, and rose from the dead. You ask a cult their beliefs and practices and they won't answer you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSS178Q-4eo [youtube.com]
You'll note that Tommy Davis never answered what Scientology beliefs in, only the "benefits". He also lied about OT3 involving Xenu.
Also they are not mutually exclusive. One can have a religion which is a cult.
Re:This could be just what we needed (Score:5, Informative)
The law in question (Score:4, Informative)
YT video/a> of an officer explaining the new rule [youtube.com]
Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 (c. 1) [statutelaw.gov.uk]
I'm not in agreement, but this is the law being sited and enforced.
Colt (Score:3, Informative)
Re:move to germany (Score:5, Informative)
So calling the CoS a "cult" seems rather tame by comparison.
Re:Oh, Great. (Score:5, Informative)
They then started issuing tickets to any cars that honked as they drove by. Second half of that video I linked, I shit you not.
From what I've read they were much better at the April and May protests, but it does show that the police's allegiances in some areas shift like crazy.
Re:Bizarreness matters too (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Whats the difference? (Score:3, Informative)
4) Works to create tension and mistrust between the new-guy and his unbelieving / skeptical family and friends. [like Scientology]
5) Often attempts to exhaust the person physically during the induction, 2AM knocks on the door etc. to defeat their mental defences
Re:Oh, Great. (Score:5, Informative)
From the article:
Re:Whats the difference? (Score:4, Informative)
A world-spanning religion based on ancient Egyptian religion, now that would be millennia.
Re:Whats the difference? (Score:5, Informative)
2. They didn't know it was year 1 at the time. That whole thing was worked out many, many years later. It turns out that the guy that worked it out was wrong. The best guess is that the fellow you're talking about was born in 4 BC, but given the state of record keeping at the time (particularly given that fellow's official status at the time of his life and death), that has to be taken with a "Lot's wife" sized grain of salt.
Re:in other news (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003342.html [westernresistance.com]
In all, only four people were brought to face charges on Friday June 26 as a result of the Sloane Square demonstration. These included Mizanur Rahman, as well as 26-year old Umran Javed of Birmingham, who denied one charge of soliciting to murder American or Danish nationals and one charge of using threatening words or behaviour likely to stir up racial hatred. 31 year old Abdul Rahman Saleem (aka Abu Yahya) denied one count of using words likely to stir up racial hatred. 23 year old Abdul Muhid was charged with two counts of soliciting murder to those who insulted Islam.
All those charged except Abdul Muhid were granted bail. Muhid, who had tried to flee the country on May 4 with Anjem Choudary, was denied bail and was kept in custody in Winchester Prison.
Muhid, Abdul Rahman Saleem (aka Abu Yahya) and Umran Javed are still awaiting their trials.
Actually the incitement to religious hatred law that this guy got busted under was partly inspired by that demonstration.
It's silly really. Incitement should be illegal and that's it. Then the "Behead those who insult Islam" types would get arrested and this guy wouldn't. Which seems fair enough to me.
Re:Bizarreness matters too (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The first problem is (Score:5, Informative)
After all the church has spent a considerable amount of money on wooing that particular police department.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/nov/22/freedomofinformation.religion [guardian.co.uk]
It is the "All animals are equal, some are more equal than the other" bit of Orwell.
I know this is a lot to ask... (Score:4, Informative)
He hasn't received a summons.
He's not being taken to court.
He was warned, by a somewhat overzealous police officer, that he might have been in breach of the law, and he had his sign confiscated.
The Crown Prosecution Service, who are the people who decide whether a prosecution will take place, have been told that these events happened. And will decide whether to proceed. If anyone wants to bet $10 to say they will, I'll gladly take your money here and now.
That's it.
Re:The first problem is (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Protester now faces harrasment. (Score:5, Informative)
Sounds like irony to me.
Re:I don't understand (Score:2, Informative)
It's a warning about the possibility of getting a ticket.
A ticket would be a written "Notice of Intended Prosecution", which would have to be followed up with a summons. And although the kid says he's got a summons, he clearly hasn't as he doesn't know his court date. A summons tells you when and where you must appear appear to answer a charge -- hence the name.
Re:Whats the difference? (Score:5, Informative)
Well, definitions vary wildly. In the course of my (philosophy) degree, I did quite a bit of study into religion, and generally speaking the following are considered good indicators of a "cult", though there is no single universal set of definitive criteria.
So, in general, a "cult":
Of course, many groups show one or more of these tendencies, but aren't widely considered (and really shouldn't be considered) "cults". And some groups that are "cults" show none of these tendencies. And this status can evolve over time; for example, many early Protestant movements were, by these criteria, "cults" at the time of their founding, but -- as Protestantism gained wider acceptance -- became closer to the mainstream and so lost many of the above tendencies.
Re:Once again (Score:5, Informative)
Try and remember that first section of US constitution is based on English Bill or Rights (1689) and Scottish Claim of Right, which itself carries on a tradition of defining the limits of state power and citizens rights dating back to Magna Carta (which predates Columbus by 200 years).
Worth thinking about every time americans get all misty eyed about their own history.
That's not to say the UK is a perfect democracy, but neither is the US.
Re:Protester now faces harrasment. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Whats the difference? (Score:5, Informative)
Public Order Act 1986 (Score:2, Informative)
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he-
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour,
or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation
which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment,
alarm or distress thereby.
(2) An offence under this section may be committed in a
public or a private place, except that no offence is committed
where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or
other visible representation is displayed, by a person inside a
dwelling and the other person is also inside that or another
dwelling.
(3) It is a defence for the accused to prove-
(a) that he had no reason to believe that there was any
person within hearing or sight who was likely to be
caused harassment, alarm or distress, or
(b) that he was inside a dwelling and had no reason to
believe that the words or behaviour used, or the writing,
sign or other visible representation displayed, would
be heard or seen by a person outside that or any other
dwelling, or
(c) that his conduct was reasonable.
(4) A constable may arrest a person without warrant ifâ"
(a) he engages in offensive conduct which the constable
warns him to stop, and
(b) he engages in further offensive conduct immediately or
shortly after the warning.
(5) In subsection (4) "offensive conduct" means conduct the
constable reasonably suspects to constitute an offence under this
section, and the conduct mentioned in paragraph (a) and the
further conduct need not be of the same nature.
(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable
on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the
standard scale.
Section 6
(4) A person is guilty of an offence under section 5 only if he
intends his words or behaviour, or the writing, sign or other
visible representation, to be threatening, abusive or insulting,
or is aware that it may be threatening, abusive or insulting or
(as the case may be) he intends his behaviour to be or is aware
that it may be disorderly.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1986/PDF/ukpga_19860064_en.pdf [opsi.gov.uk]
Must have been using ISO 8601 Dates (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Whats the difference? (Score:1, Informative)
Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: \klt\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at wheel
Date: 1617
1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
Re:Once again (Score:1, Informative)
Re:I know this is a lot to ask... (Score:3, Informative)
That the police even went so far as to issue a summons is a scary indictment of the level of anti-speech legislation on the books and used against peaceful demonstrators. As someone said above, I wonder when they'll decide to ban 'war-criminal' and 'tax' protest signs.
Re:Once again (Score:5, Informative)
Really worked for this guy, right?
> Try and remember that first section of US
> constitution is based on English Bill or Rights
Nope. Sorry. Not even close.
The first section (Article 1) of the constitution deals with the structure of government.
Refresher course on line here: http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html [usconstitution.net]
In fact, ratification of the Constitution was in doubt due to the observation of the people that there were no protections of individual rights in the document. Promises of amendments to correct this issue were finally agreed to by states in order to get the constitution passed.
Only then were people's rights enshrined in in the first 10 amendments, the most important of which and the least observed being Amendment 10:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
In fact, that single amendment would have sufficed and we would be better off with just that single amendment. Too many people believe the constitution enumerates our rights. This is totally backward. The constitution Limits Government. Something sadly lacking in Britain.
Re:Easy win - bring a dictionary (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The first problem is (Score:5, Informative)
City of London is just one of 30 boroughs of the city named London. Confusing, I know. To make matters more confusing, City of London have it's police force (the rest of London's policing is done by the Metropolitan Police as pointed out in the article) and City of London has it's own Lord Mayor not to be confused with the Mayor of London.
City of London is the "original" London, where most of the settlements dating back to Roman times can be found. Now it's mainly a financial centre, and not many people live there.
Generally City is under tighter control than the rest of London, and it doesn't surprise me that it was City of London police that acted like idiots.
Re:Once again (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Once again (Score:5, Informative)
In the UK, I can say "Gordon Brown is a noxious prick" without any legal repercussions.If I was in the US, I couldn't say that about George W Bush without being arrested.
I've lived in the US my whole life. Saying that any politician is a prick, fruad, cheat, liar, bastard, @#$#head or worse is constitutionally protected political speech. People can, and do voice their opinion on our leaders with bumper stickers, rants on national television, signs, t-shirts and more. Bush is more often the target than not. We have the absolute right to criticize our politicians. We have no thought police, despite peoples best attempts to imagine them!
What we are struggling with here is the right to peacefully assemble to voice these opinions where, say George Bush is going to give a speech at a graduation. The haters want to disrupt the event (which would fall out of bounds of our right to *peacefully* assemble), and Bush just wants to deliver his speech (and believe me, he doesn't want distractions).
Re:Once again (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not censorship (Score:1, Informative)
That only computes to a Scientologist.
Your so called"buddy's" conviction was thrown out (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=15992 [freedomforum.org]
I think you should have said "I read a story about a guy..." because we read it too. And that way when you find out that his conviction was overturned on appeal, you won't look so silly.
"TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. -- The Michigan Court of Appeals yesterday struck down a 105-year-old law against using vulgar language in front of women and children, throwing out the conviction of a canoeist who let loose a stream of curses after falling into the water.
A three-judge panel ruled in favor of Timothy Joseph Boomer. An Arenac County jury had found him guilty in 1999 of swearing after tumbling into the Rifle River."
If you knew the guy like you implied, you'd know that too.
And the obscenity laws you talk about have repeatedly been ruled unconstitutional when challenged.
Re:Open source governance (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxxii.html [cornell.edu]
Re:Britain 1, USA 0 (Score:5, Informative)
First, on matters of adherence to biblical doctrine, St. Francis said this: "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity". This means that difference of opinion over worship style, dress, etc. should be unimportant, and shouldn't get in the way of focusing on the essentials of learning to follow God, and those differences don't define cults.
When defining a cult, Dr. Walter Martin (RIP) wrote the definitive work in the 1970's called "The Kingdom of the Cults". It is an exhaustive, massive reference book that simply points out where each and every religious group in the world differs from Biblical doctrine.
You know when you're in a cult when:
1) The group is led by a charismatic leader who demands obedience to his word above any others.
2) The leader insists on doing your thinking for you, i.e. arranged marriages, etc.
3) The group grants teachings that are not the Bible equal or greater standing than the Bible.
4) The leader teaches that all other churches/groups/whatever are missing it, and only HIS way is really hearing God.
5) The leader doesn't even attempt to live by his own principles.
Sounds like Scientology fits the definition to me.
I'm definitely crossing the U.K. off my travel list. They've gone completely 'round the bend.
Re:Rise of the hive mind (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Bizarreness matters too (Score:2, Informative)
I have heard this notion cast about for some time now, here at Slashdot and elsewhere, and it disturbs me that so many people miss the important point here. The issue is not whether Scientology is any weirder than other religions. Their bizarre beliefs are not in and of themselves the danger. The real danger is of the same kind we have seen before. It is very familiar, everyone here has probably read about it at one point or another, perhaps in a history book, or a newspaper.
And that danger is that to the average Scientologist the only hope for the world is through the philosophy of Scientology. It MUST be spread to every corner of the globe by whatever means necessary. Our society MUST be rewritten according to its standards and methods. And its current standards and methods are clear that any means are acceptable to reaching that end. ANY means. The laws, morals, ethics, etc. of the rest of the world are secondary and can be ignored if it means furthering the aims of Scientology.
THAT is the danger in a nutshell. As I have said, we have seen this sort of thinking before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism [wikipedia.org]
And we have seen what happens when Scientologists are allowed to practice this "philosophy":
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/ [whyaretheydead.net]
http://www.scientology-lies.com/investigation.html [scientology-lies.com]
http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/index.htm [xenu.net]
There are still other dangers to be considered as well. They turn people away from doctors, medicine and real mental help while giving pie-in-the-sky promises of curing all your problems (up to and including things like cancer, diabetes, schizophrenia, and homosexuality, which they consider a "mental illness"). Many have died believing Scientology would cure them.
Then there is the fact they their "disconnection" policies have, and are continuing to rip families apart: http://www.scientologydisconnection.com/ [scientolog...ection.com]
Children of Scientologists are often denied education, either by being discouraged to go to college (and in many cases any non-scientologist school), or if the parent is a staff member (or if the child is), they may be forced into a Scientology children's organization of one sort or another where they will receive a substandard education, if any. In my experience (which others shared with me and I have found out is all too common elsewhere), I was recruited at a young age and told that my education would be provided for. I and all the other children at the location I was at were given a 4-5 hours a day in a classroom-like environment in which we were to pair off and study "whatever". There were math books, science books, books on spelling and such. But there was no teacher, no curriculum, no grades, no structure of any sort. Often the class was cancelled if we were needed for more important matters (meaning anything to do with Scientology's well-being). To get around this we were all instructed and trained in how to lie if the city sent someone by to check on conditions there, and we were to tell them that we were always getting our study in.
I understand that there are some similar practices in other religions as well. I oppose these too. Religions that forbid surgery or blood transfusions, those that sucker people into "faith healing", all are doing a tremendous disservice and must be opposed.
Scientology too must be