Blogger Subpoenaed for Criticizing Trial Lawyers 500
Cutie Pi writes "Katherine Seidel, mother of an autistic child and an avid blogger has been subpoenaed for her "family's bank records, tax returns, autism-related medical and educational records, and every communication concerning all of the issues to which [she] has devoted [her] attention and energy in recent years." The lawyer in question is representing a mother who is suing Bayer for $20M with the claim that mercury in their vaccines caused her child's autism. In her blog Seidel has spoken out against lawyers trying to cash in on thimerosal lawsuits, noting that the thimerosal-autism link has been debunked in several studies. But Seidel herself has had no direct involvement in the lawsuit."
Blinded by the light (Score:5, Interesting)
I suppose, in some sense, that it's like telling her that her religion is wrong.
Least it's not the Canadian Hate Crimes Commission (Score:2, Interesting)
"Freedom of speech is an American concept, so I don't give it any value. [nationalreview.com]
Wrong on all counts, but the 1st Amendment does provide protections for free speech not available in many other countries, so I hope we see this particular instance of tort abuse smacked down hard.
Some idea of what their doing (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Silent Spring all over again (Score:1, Interesting)
No, Silent Spring was shown to be valid, but people thought the the lives saved from reducing mosquitos and therefore malaria infection was worth the decline in bird populations.
Figures, he's a Shoemaker (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Silent Spring all over again (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.healingourchildren.net/Are_Vaccine_Safe/vaccine_side_effects_fall_in_death_rates.jpg [healingourchildren.net]
It comes form this book:
Medical Measures and the Decline of Mortality, John B. McKinlay, Sonja M. McKinlay, published in book, The Sociology of Health & Illness: Critical Perspectives, Peter Conrad
A great documentary from 1998 called Vaccination - The Hidden Truth
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6696666502913965744 [google.com]
Please type in vaccines and alzheimer's into google as well.
Re:Silent Spring all over again (Score:5, Interesting)
Silent Spring was a crock in the overreaction that followed the book.
We went from spraying DDT on everything, to nothing.
There are films from the 40s and 50s where trucks would just drive down neighborhoods spraying DDT. They'd do it at public pools. No one thought anything of it. We way over used DDT.
In the wake of the book, people overreacted and moved to basically ban DDT outright. Instead of spraying in a controlled manner (such as, say, only where mosquitoes are a problem), we stopped spraying it altogether despite the fact that it was incredibly effective and cheap.
The book it's self was fine. As I remember Rachel Carson didn't argue to ban DDT but to be much more responsible in it's use. That really isn't what happened. It's that legacy (overreaction causing serious other problems) that people generally mean when they talk about Silent Spring being a crock.
I'd like to subpoena some clarification... (Score:2, Interesting)
I am the sole proprietor of a number of domain names. All of them are paid for in full by myself, and none of them offer services or goods sold for monetary gain. I don't even collect donations myself, yet my host supports them (offering a means for people to donate directly to the hosting account for purposes of continuing services or upgrading those services.) Point being, were I to own a hypothetical blog in the same position as http://www.neurodiversity.com/ [neurodiversity.com] why would donation records need to be subpoenaed in the first place? Should people be in the mind to give to a site they support, shouldn't they be free to do so without having to worry about this? This subpoena seems rather similar to the McCarthy-era Communist witch-hunts in terminology used, such as referring to the turnover of the names of those who have donated.
Also, since when is a blog classed as a taxable entity, and since when are blog owners required to submit tax documents on behalf of their blogs? If this is a necessary thing, it is something I haven't learned during my entire time in the dot-com scene.
Again, IANAL, so tear it up in a respectful manner. I'd like to hear where my shortcomings are.
Re:Silent Spring all over again (Score:4, Interesting)
The studies trying to link Autism to Vaccines all clearly show no such link.
On top of that, the rate of increase has stayed the same even after the removal of Themarisol.
That not really a surprise considering it's a different type of mercury then that which causes developmental problems.
Re:Blinded by the light (Score:3, Interesting)
Autism rates over time do not match vaccination rates over time, nor do they match vaccination rates across national boundaries, nor do they match national Thimerosal usage rates. However, that does NOT mean that a vaccine didn't trigger a particular case of autism. It could very well be that the child would have had autism triggered the first time they had a significant immune response and/or fever for anything, and the vaccine happened to be the culprit in that case. If they hadn't been vaccinated, their first serious cold, rotavirus, or whatnot would have been the trigger. If that hypothesis is correct, vaccine rates wouldn't track autism rates at all (since the kids who would have gotten autism would still get it) but from the parents point of view many vaccinations would trigger autism.
Thus, the problem is that I think scientists are afraid to risk their career tracking down some of these links that really could help children. Perhaps there is a potential drug for at-risk children that prevents their immune system-- if that is what triggers autism-- from doing the Bad Thing it does to these children. We'll probably never know, because who wants to research it now?
Vaccines are already largely unprofitable (contrary to most accusations from parents). They're usually administered 1-3 times in a person's life, carry a high risk of lawsuit, and have to be pretty cheap to get anyone to use it. That's why so few manufacturers make it, and why the government has to artificially inflate the market in order to get enough flu vaccines and such.
In any case, I'd love to see the hyperbole settle down and not have every court case where some child got a sky-high fever from a vaccine that caused brain damage be labeled as some sort of admission... these people need to just settle down, vaccinate for the "big ones" only if that's what they want, and get on with life as best they can.
Re:This is why people hate lawyers... (Score:3, Interesting)
They'll ask for everything, but when it becomes apparent that they might have to sift through thousands of pages of material, they're often willing to be much more reasonable. THEY don't want to have to read through it any more than the person who received the supoena wants to print it all out.
Thimerisol has not been debunked. (Score:2, Interesting)
This one case does not prove all instances -- but it opens the door.
In her case she had a mutation in her mitochondria that caused them to have reduced function. They found that the combination, and multiple immunizations, along with the mercury, overburdened her Immune system. So, it may be a combination effect; the low-level mercury poisoning (and I don't call add mercury to anyone by another name), combined with multiple immunizations, can cause Autism.
Now, the connection with the mutated mitochondria does not mean in itself that this is a freak instance, because underperforming mitochondria appear in about 20% of Autistic people.
I find the whole "debunking" thing these days, to highly favor well paid corporations. Bill Frist got lots of money from Eli Lilly, and he dutifully tried to put an immunity clause for them in 5 different bills. Finally, they got their clause into the Patriot Act II. Then we have to look at the lobbyists turned government oversight bureaucrats in the EPA, FDA and CDC -- oh heck, even NASA. They put a man who had an unhealthy liking for underage boys in charge of Child Endangerment. So, unfortunately, what "debunking" in the US could anyone trust?
Tell me the dollar amount donated by lobbyists on any issue, and I'll tell you the results of how this government will act on it.
Re:Silent Spring all over again (Score:4, Interesting)
Here is how Dixy Lee Ray (with Lou Guzzo) described events (Trashing the Planet, page 69) [note: Ray has the timing wrong, the spraying was stopped in 1964, not the late 60s]:
Public health statistics from Sri Lanka testify to the effectiveness of the spraying program. In 1948, before the use of DDT, there were 2.8 million cases of malaria. By 1963, there were only 17. Low levels of infection continued until the late 1960s, when the attacks on DDT in the U.S. convinced officials to suspend spraying. In 1968, there were one million cases of malaria. In 1969, the number reached 2.5 million, back to the pre-DDT levels. Moreover, by 1972, the largely unsubstantiated charges against DDT in the United States had a worldwide effect. In 1970, of two billion people living in malaria regions, 79 percent were protected and the expectation was that malaria would be eradicated. Six years after the United States banned DDT, there were 800 million cases of malaria and 8.2 million deaths per year. Even worse, because eradication programs were halted at a critical time, resistant malaria is now widespread and travelers could take it home.
From: http://info-pollution.com/ddtban.htm [info-pollution.com]Re:Silent Spring all over again (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Silent Spring all over again (Score:5, Interesting)
Money quote from Motion to Quash (Score:5, Interesting)
Look at the craziness.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Logic and evidence be damned (Score:4, Interesting)
>The vaccines scare us because the diseases don't. And they don't because of the vaccines.
Right you are! I am old enough to remember the polio epidemics in the summer and being scared shitless of winding up in an iron lung. Swimming pools and libraries got closed and people were afraid to go to the ballgame. These Luddites should go live in Afghanistan or The Sudan with their like-minded brethren.
Before crying wolf... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:False dichotomy (Score:4, Interesting)
Vaccines should always be tested, but they have a proven, long track record.
This is a lot like taking seatbelts out of cars because they break ribs - except seatbelts obviously do break ribs, while these vaccines causing autism is a much more foggy link.
Re:Silent Spring all over again (Score:2, Interesting)
Silent Spring was a crock in the overreaction that followed the book.
We went from spraying DDT on everything, to nothing.
DDT (Score:1, Interesting)
Exception that's not actually what happened. DDT wasn't banned in the US until 1972, and yet some developing countries (Sri Lanka is the most widely used example) had already suspended spraying as a Malaria control measure in the 60's, as the mosquitoes had developed resistance to DDT, presumed to be from agricultural spraying. Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] has a reasonable (if short) summary.
There were two other unforeseen consequences of spraying with DDT: " In the 1950s [wilsoncenter.org], the World Health Organization (WTO) dropped DDT on the island of Borneo to control mosquitoes, resulting in two unexpected events. First, homes collapsed under the weight of hornets' nests that died and hardened from the DDT; and second, and more troubling, there was an outbreak of bubonic plague because the DDT affected the island's animal nutrient cycle. Small animals (lizards, insects, etc.) became sluggish, while larger animals such as cats ended up with toxic levels of DDT from consumption of smaller creatures. Eventually, all the cats died, leading to an increase in the rat population and an outbreak of bubonic plague. The WTO's solution--which worked--was to airdrop cats to deal with the rat problem, which, in turn, addressed the bubonic plague problem."
FalconDDT (Score:5, Interesting)
DDT didn't cause the thinning. It's still banned though, because people fear global warming and other such nonsense.
"In the 1950s [wilsoncenter.org], the World Health Organization (WTO) dropped DDT on the island of Borneo to control mosquitoes, resulting in two unexpected events. First, homes collapsed under the weight of hornets' nests that died and hardened from the DDT; and second, and more troubling, there was an outbreak of bubonic plague because the DDT affected the island's animal nutrient cycle. Small animals (lizards, insects, etc.) became sluggish, while larger animals such as cats ended up with toxic levels of DDT from consumption of smaller creatures. Eventually, all the cats died, leading to an increase in the rat population and an outbreak of bubonic plague. The WTO's solution--which worked--was to airdrop cats to deal with the rat problem, which, in turn, addressed the bubonic plague problem."
FalconRe:Silent Spring all over again (Score:3, Interesting)
So would a company produce 'a' cheap unreliable vaccine of poor quality in order to maximise short profits, well the history of corporations would tend to indicate that it is likely to happen. Would a corrupt corporation attempt to hide this behaviour to attempt to hide it's bad vaccine behind all the other safe and good vaccines by claiming any attack on their own product is an attack on all vaccines, well history would also tend to show that kind of behaviour will happen.
No one should repeat or spread that error, not all vaccines are the same, you can not compare every vaccine ever made, to one product like DDT, the idea is stupid. So the only question to ask is, can a particular vaccines made by a particular company cause undesirable side affects.
If I were a medical product manufacturer I would take the easy way out and simply prove that junk additives in junk foods cause a whole lot of different and varied problems. Hence it would be virtually impossible to prove than any particular medication from the 20th century caused any particular problem because it would have been near impossible for anybody to avoid all the junk food additives added into the modern western diet.