UK's MI5 Wants Oyster Card Travel Data 291
Boiled Frog from a Nation of Suspects writes "The Oyster card, an RFID single-swipe card (which was recently cracked), was introduced to London's public transport users purportedly to make their lives easier. Now, British Intelligence services want some of the benefits by trawling through the travel data amassed by the card to spy on the 17 million Britons who use it. The article notes, "Currently the security services can demand the Oyster records of specific individuals under investigation to establish where they have been, but cannot trawl the whole database. But supporters of calls for more sharing of data argue that apparently trivial snippets — like the journeys an individual makes around the capital — could become important pieces of the jigsaw when fitted into a pattern of other publicly held information on an individual's movements, habits, education and other personal details. That could lead, they argue, to the unmasking of otherwise undetected suspects."
Acid Test (Score:5, Interesting)
After 6 months, they can decide if they *REALLY* want the intelligence services (and anyone who picks an MI5 laptop up on a train) to have the same.
That's not good enough. (Score:4, Insightful)
People in power really don't have as much to hide. Political dissidents, on the other hand, have to watch out for reprisals. Would you risk having anything to do with an opposition group if you knew your affiliation would be noted? Symmetry of information is not always the same as symmetry of power.
The best way to oppose this is to note that there's no real law enforcement benefit.
Re:That's not good enough. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Well, his case is an argument for transparency, rather than against it...
Re:That's not good enough. (Score:4, Insightful)
There's no doubt that what he did was wrong, and represented a massive conflict of interest. I have very little sympathy for him.
However, politicians have done much, much worse, kept their positions, and in some cases even been re-elected. (For crying out loud, the Valerie Plame incident could easily be construed as treason)
By all accounts, he actually was doing a fairly decent job governing the state compared to his predecessors. His own personal life had very little bearing on his actions while in office (ditto to Bill Clinton).
Do we want a President/Governor who steals candy from convenience stores? No. However, if he's doing an apt job of managing foreign affairs and the economy, it might do considerably less damage to ignore it, and turn your head the other way.
Re:That's not good enough. (Score:4, Insightful)
You are arguing for selective enforcement [wikipedia.org] — a form of tyranny and, when the law-enforcer is himself a criminal, of hypocrisy. As prosecutor Spitzer hunted down "prostitution rings" (instead of advocating the legalization of the practice, for example) and — as Governor — just recently signed the law extending incarceration of "johns" from 3 to 12 months.
Although many politicians have, indeed, committed crimes, those who were caught have gone through major troubles. That Spitzer had to resign, unlike another infamous "star" of Democratic Party, is the sign, that he was not doing his job that well, i.e. "I'm a fucking steamroller, and I'll roll over you," — is not how a governor is supposed to speak/act...
No, that's not true — his tenure as a governor is just too short to judge. Many consider him a hero of public service for "going after" the financial firms as the State's chief prosecutor. But what those people don't realize, is that he has not won a single trial — only settlements. And those of his targets, who chose not to settle, have all won in court...
If such was the case of, say, anti-terrorism prosecutions, you would, I think, claim, the entire "terrorism" thing was drummed by the gubermint in order to put your favorite government evil here...
You seem to agree, he should've been thrown out, yet you come up with silly excuses and "yeah-buts". There aren't any — not in this case.
You know, you could've used this argument to, say, defend Michael Jackson: "should we not look the other way, if a great artist molested a few boys for inspiration," — or something like that. "His contribution to culture may outweigh the harm done to these kids." I would not necessarily agree, but that could be a valid opinion — if not regarding the actual molestation, than certainly regarding drug abuse, for example...
Yet in case of a politician, hypocrisy and absence of integrity are immediately disqualifying — a politician simply can not be deemed to be "doing a decent job", if he violates the law(s) he is there to uphold. Ditto Bill Clinton.
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Politician's careers can be seriously damaged or even sunk on a single incident of sexual misconduct, a single drug offense, a few suspicious meetings with unpopular corporate or special interests, and a million other things.
I don't live in the UK, so it might be different there. But here in the US a single drug offense is enough to put college out of the reach of many people. Government grants and financial aid eligibility are removed, if one already has grants, stipends or other federal aid, it gets cut off right there.
I'm not really sure that, that really is different than having ones political career destroyed because of a relatively minor mistake.
Meeting with unsavory people, unpopular groups and any sort of recorded sexu
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Politician's careers can be seriously damaged or even sunk on a single incident of sexual misconduct, a single drug offense, a few suspicious meetings with unpopular corporate or special interests, and a million other things.
I don't live in the UK, so it might be different there. But here in the US a single drug offense is enough to put college out of the reach of many people. Government grants and financial aid eligibility are removed, if one already has grants, stipends or other federal aid, it gets cut off right there.
It's different here, we have the right to universal free education until age 18 (compulsory education finishes age 16, we call 16-18 "college" and 18-20 uni). After that university depends on grades, and how much student loan you can get; no one checks your criminal history; hell at some universities *not* having taken drugs would probably be a disadvantage. A *lot* of people I know have did some form of drug whilst at uni; I didn't are because of medical problems I have, and the school I went to was a vir
Re:That's not good enough. (Score:4, Interesting)
People in power really don't have as much to hide.
Wow, that is the most naive statement I've heard in well... as long as I can remember!
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Everyone is a suspect then. (Score:4, Insightful)
What the honest hope to unmask is criminals by considering everyone a suspect.
What they will do is discover and harass political opposition. Dark times for the UK.
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What the honest hope to unmask is criminals by considering everyone a suspect.
What they will do is discover and harass political opposition. Dark times for the UK.
Wow and people call my country (USA) oppressive! Makes me glad I'm not there... OTOH, I remember the complaints centuries ago when the US would complain about taxation without representation, the Brits would complain that they still had to pay more than us, that doesn't make it right! Nowadays we Americans are complaining aobut gas when the Brits
Re:Everyone is a suspect then. (Score:5, Insightful)
its good that we pay so much tax on the damn stuff, gas should be expensive.
The fact that gas is so expensive means we have vaguely working public
transport and fuel efficient vehicles. You're paying $4 a gallon.. good,
you should be paying at least that, its just a shame you haven't been
paying that much for decades. If you had your infrastructure would have
developed in saner ways and you might be in a better position
to face peak oil. As it is, so many people live > 20 miles from where
they need to work, and food/goods distribution is so energy intensive
its really going to get ugly.
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Don't get me started.
I've got to make a trip to Liverpool next Saturday to pick up my 9-year old stepdaughter for the Easter holidays - even with a fairly economical car, that's a 400 mile round trip, and is going to set me back 60 quid, of which at least 50 goes to those leeches in Whitehall.
When they start to invest all that tax in efficient public transport, wake me up and I'll agree that it's reasonable.
Until then, it's just gouging by the parasites who are allowed to spend 22 grand featherin
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Critics, however, fear a shift towards US-style 'data mining', a controversial technique using powerful computers to sift and scan millions of pieces of data, seeking patterns of behaviour which match the known profiles of terrorist suspects. They argue that it is unfair for millions of innocent people to have their privacy invaded on the off-chance of finding a handful of bad apples
It's ver
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This gives the police/security service NO additional powers to detain/charge individuals. There's a big difference between having access to information and being given new ways of acting on the information. This doesn't give them access to any information which isn't already discoverable in the public domain. I could hire a PI to follow you
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It will be worse than E. Germany, so it must be stopped now. Amateur law enforcement through paranoid informants [boingboing.net] is a part of any police state but centralized tracking like this was beyond the means of E. Germany and other previous tyrannies. The other thing that makes it worse is that there's no large free state left for escape or rescue. Once the ability to identify and quash dissidents is established, the laws will be changed to make it easier to round them up.
If they have their way, there will be no
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Really? You'll still be able to buy single (or multiple) trip tickets for cash, surely?
Any "person of interest" will be sure to be doing that from today, if they weren't already. So as usual, the people the measures are supposed to catch will easily evade them, meanwhile millions of innocent commuters will lose another piece of their privacy.
Re:Everyone is a suspect then. (Score:4, Interesting)
Really? You'll still be able to buy single (or multiple) trip tickets for cash, surely? Any "person of interest" will be sure to be doing that from today, if they weren't already. So as usual, the people the measures are supposed to catch will easily evade them, meanwhile millions of innocent commuters will lose another piece of their privacy.
Give them time.....I'm sure eventually they will do away with currency, probably sooner in the U.K. than in the U.S., but inevitably. The people in power (not to mention divorce lawyers and the like) would absolutely love to be able to know where every penny of your income goes (or comes from, in the case of the tax folks). Here the "Green Dot" and similar refillable debit cards are being hawked in ads everywhere, so eventually more and more poorer folk will be tempted into plastic, under the guise of "security" and "safety" ("Don't carry all that cash around.....") and "convenience." Not to mention those ubiquitous VISA ads that show traffic through some commercial establishment flowing like clockwork, with people waving their smart cards at that infernal little machine, until some nimnul pulls out cash and brings everything to a screeching halt.
Eventually, most Americans will be conditioned to see cash as "slow," "unsafe," and (the worst!) "old-fashioned" and the only citizens left clinging to their dead presidents will be the ignorant, the homeless, and those damned pointy-headed paranoia-spreading, conspiracy-theory nonconformists. It would be rather smooth at that point to phase out the use of currency altogether. Oh, it might be that some private transactions could still go on, perhaps in the form of barter/exchange, or some form of private scrip (which would be clamped down on pretty quickly), or for larger transactions hard metal such as gold (the private ownership of which will no doubt eventually be criminalized), but for the most part we are rushing towards a point at which any transaction involving any commercial enterprise will be logged, stored, and available for the data miners.
Re:Everyone is a suspect then. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you show up at an airport in the US with a ticket paid for with cash (especially a One Way ticket), you are marked SSSS for extra security. I'm sure the UK can do something similar. After all, only those trying to avoid surveilance would use cash, Right?
*sigh* (Score:5, Insightful)
Translated: We want to be able to spy on you. We are not sure why yet.
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The British Empire contains subjects. We're all subjects of the Queen.
OTOH she doesn't have a lot of power in practice - in theory she appoints the prime minister and the cabinet, and could unilaterally dismiss the government.. the army also swear allegience to her so they couldn't exactly stop her. In reality that just isn't going to happen. No monarch has dismissed an elected prime minister since 1834.
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She can no longer order the death penalty (no more 'off with his head!'
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D Filter error: You can type more than that for yo (Score:3, Interesting)
Two problems with that (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:D Filter error: You can type more than that for (Score:2)
Of course anyone w
Re:D Filter error: You can type more than that for (Score:3, Informative)
Incidentally, in Helsinki the public transport system uses an electronic pay card system, which is also used to create statistics on travel for use by the transport authority in designing their services. This data used to be personally identifiable, and was indeed used by the police to track the movements of the Myyrmanni bomber prior to the bombing. [wikipedia.org] There was a bit of
Re:D Filter error: You can type more than that for (Score:5, Informative)
It's a silly thing to ask for, since any terrorist who isn't a complete idiot is likely to use the anonymous version. Of course, anyone willing to blow themselves up is probably some kind of idiot to start with...
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Re:D Filter error: You can type more than that for (Score:4, Insightful)
It's already anonymous if you want it to be. You can buy an Oyster card over the counter for cash without giving any personal details. You can optionally register the card, so you can top up the pre-pay online and so on, in which case it ceases to be anonymous, but the default is anonymous.
Of course, if you really have something to hide, you buy individual tickets, which would only be traceable with a lot of work correlating the CCTV images (no change from the present). Ok, it's £4 per Zone 1 journey instead of £1.50, but I bet the terrorists can afford it. In other word, this isn't a measure against the terrorists -- it's too easily circumvented: it's just more monitoring of the ordinary reasonably law-abiding citizen.
I predict a new business coming (Score:5, Insightful)
Or better, stick it inside someone else's bag and you look like you were traveling with them. The downfall of all of this is that there is no physical link between the tag and any human being. This is just stupid. Tracking people will not work, and will ONLY inconvenience the stupid criminals and honest people. When will governments learn?
Re:I predict a new business coming (Score:5, Funny)
So do the obvious thing and require that everyone in the UK (including those changing planes at Heathrow) get an RFID implant. Problem solved, identity theft a thing of the past [1]
[1] At least as long as the Forces of Evil don't figure out how to remove/transplant the suckers. Don't worry, they're not smart enough to figure that out.
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The lab called (Score:5, Funny)
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Slashdot just likes to use a big numbers to say there are more in London than elsewhere.
Of course the best way to track anyone these days is a combination of credit card and mobile phone. No camera needed.
Re:I predict a new business coming (Score:4, Interesting)
Shhhh don't give them any ideas! Next thing you know they are going to implant chips for you to travel, or go work, or get your chocolate ration for the week. I hear it's up to 20 grams!
Re:I predict a new business coming (Score:5, Insightful)
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There are actually quite a few crimes that are based on the fact that you were about to attempt to break other laws - attempted murder, conspiracy to commit fraud et al.
Or speeding on a freeway, or drunk driving. Neither activity actually causes harm, it's just that both lead to increased risk of harm. But both are really "pre-crimes".
For the record, I think they're crap laws -- what should take place is harsh punishment for damages caused if an accident results, not for some imagined possibility. The world is substantially safer from a professional driver going 100MPH on the freeway rather than my 80-year-old uncle driving a single mile to the store. Even stone s
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You do not drive as well as you think you do. Driving is not just about you getting where you want to get as quickly as you can. It is about doing the best on the road for everybody, not charging around like a fool, but driving with respect to other drivers.
Re:6. Not of numbers, but of free men. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's a lovely display of trust, of course, but a woefully misguided one. If in any governmental system there is potential for abuse, then sooner or later there will be abuse. Simple probability. The more power a government has over it's citizens, the more potential for damage there is in cases of abuse. And any government will take all the power they are given, that is why they must actively be kept in check.
It was only today I read someone seriously wondering why people would complain about the police keeping a register of DNA samples and fingerprints of all citizens - their express point of view was that if it helps catch criminals, anything goes. At times like that, I tend to feel like I'm an atheist debating the existence of God with a deeply religious person. It's as if there were no common ground at all, no common logic to be found. Hopefully it isn't so.
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I don't disagree with this. In fact, there's a continuum between the two, especially as lobbyists control governments and it becomes harder to tell the line between the government and private citizens with an agenda, between people with "authorized" use of force and people abusing force. It's not a crisp line. And the
Pervasive surveillance (Score:5, Insightful)
What the fuck is wrong with England? I mean, Orwell *showed* them in "1984" how bad it could be, but they keep moving towards it. It's very strange.
Re:Pervasive surveillance (Score:4, Informative)
I believe that the DDR (former East Germany) holds the record with something like 30% of the population keeping tabs on the rest. Their status as a workers' paradise is left to the reader to judge.
Re:Pervasive surveillance (Score:5, Insightful)
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Oh, wait.... Not now, American Idols is on. And I'm hungry. I think I'll get a pizza.
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Re:Pervasive surveillance (Score:4, Interesting)
Not at all. The people in power are generally immune to any consequences, which is why they can do this and not care. The United States Congress was originally structured in such a way that the lawmakers would serve their term of office (a civic responsibility, much like jury duty) and then return to their previous lives to live under the very laws they instituted. That very powerful negative feedback loop was opened (to our detriment) when the idea of "career politician" was born. Now, I don't know enough about England's governmental structures to know if there were any similar controls that have also since lapsed into uselessness. If so, it would explain a lot.
MPs can remain in charge indefinitely, no max term (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:MPs can remain in charge indefinitely, no max t (Score:2)
Really you should be voting for your chosen candidate *Even if he has no chance* because one day the other 85% might decide to do the same thing, and they need your support.
One vote means little, but for example in this seat I'm in which is a very safe labour seat... the majority is only 600 people. That's not a lot of people that need to change, and it's a good thing to break the apathy a
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Back to democracy though, I dare say that getting Proportional Representation implemented would drive up those turnouts
Re:MPs can remain in charge indefinitely, no max t (Score:2)
Al Gore was once asked his opinion on term limits for Congresspersons. He was wide-eyed with astonishment, and replied, "But that would deprive the American people of the benefits of professional politicians!"
Dubious benefits indeed, no matter what country you hail from.
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Yes, but the barely literate proletariat read the Sun, Daily Express and the Daily Mail which is all "OMG IMMIGRANTS, POLISH IMMIGRANTS, SINGLE MOTHERS, TERRORISTS, POOR PEOPLE, LIBERALS, PAEDOPHILES!!!!!"
The ones that can be bothered to vote do so according to what these "newspapers" tell them to, and since they vastly outnumber rational and intelligent human beings, we have the government we have.
Pay as you go variant. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Why link it to the individual at all? (Score:5, Interesting)
There are logs, and you can check them yourself by inserting the card into a reader; same for your wife who took your card to see where you've been. It is anonymous in that your personal details are not tied to the card ID, so no fishing expeditions by the authorities.
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Feature creep (Score:5, Insightful)
And what happens when the database gets hacked (this is INEVITABLE) and your personal data is online, never to go away? Jack shit is what. The government won't reimburse you, the data will never dissappear (like they say, real men don't do backups, they archive to the internet!) and identity theives (including, you guessed it, terrorists) will have a field day with easily used personal data which can't be 'taken back'.
This is one of those cases where the certain (not potential, this shit is ionevitable) consequences are much worse than any 'problem' you are trying to solve.
Personal data will hit the net, identity thieves will have fun and you actually make tracing terrorists MORE DIFFICULT.
God, people are dumb sometimes.
Shock! (Score:5, Funny)
Oh well. I'm sure this time they'll be satisfied with their new powers.
You're on camera (Score:2)
I can understand your face being red -- whatEVER inspired you to do that for them anyway?
One does wonder just how popular it's become to wank (etc.) for the camera crews.
PS: Anyone else notice that previewing clears any edits made to the "Subject:" line?
This won't catch anyone doing anything... (Score:2, Insightful)
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The TERROR! (Score:5, Informative)
From TFA:
The fear of cyber-warfare has climbed Whitehall's agenda since last year's attack on the Baltic nation of Estonia, in which Russian hackers swamped state servers with millions of electronic messages until they collapsed. The Estonian defence and foreign ministries and major banks were paralysed,
Except that these were done by some Estonian script kiddies [theregister.co.uk], so it wasn't "CYBERWARFARE!!!11@@!"
Rich.
data trawling is ineffective (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:data trawling is ineffective (Score:4, Insightful)
If the methods being applied look very much like Orwell's 1984, then one obvious conclusion are that the motives of the authorities are very similar to the motives of "the Party" in 1984: political control.
Take for example the current downfall of NY democratic governer Eliot Spitzer just as he was fighting the gifting of massive amounts of public funds to the big financiers. By tracking financial records and listening to phone calls, the authorities were able to uncover a "crime" that many would consider harmless (having sex) and assert political control by making him resign. This frees them to continue their original agenda unimpeded and take down a rival in the process.
So once all the records of travel (license plates, rail, air, onmipresent cameras) are monitored by the authorities, then you can look at the movement patterns of politically active people and use indirect methods of control without ever revealing the true purpose, and without having to assign full-time agents to follow each person and record their activities. You could track large numbers of people without ever leaving the central office and just place a convenient call to a policeman to pick up the person for whatever crimes you uncover along the way, or arrange an "accident" if you want to be more thorough.
Sad but true. (Score:3, Interesting)
In the Netherlands there will be a travelcard that can be used in the whole country. Train, bus, tram, subway, everything.
They come in two flavours. One, *cough* anonymous, wihthout reduction and one, personalised, with 40% reduction. It appears anonymity comes at a price.
But who cares. They wouldn't do anything bad with it. They wouldn't use it to datamine your behaviour.
Recently I heared this story. I can't tell if it's true, but it sounds likely. They are still running trials with the cards and there are "some" flaws in the system. Somebody, with a registered card, described his traven from A to B and back again. After that trip, he found there was more money on his card than before and he wrote a story about is. Anonymously.
But surprisingly enough he got a call from the card company, so he asked how he got his phonenumber. The answer was "what do you think?".
I find this disturbing.
Predictable response (Score:2)
Unless they take annoying steps to prevent it, this will just lead to the same response that a lot of people in the USA used: trading. People swap loyalty cards all the time, which I'm sure leads to some amazing connections turning up.
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They come in two flavours. One, *cough* anonymous, wihthout reduction and one, personalised, with 40% reduction. It appears anonymity comes at a price.
It's worth pointing out that there's no need to invoke Big Brother to explain this situation, as simple economics does a better job.
Statistics/probability analysis (Score:2)
There's a lesson in this (Score:2)
An identical observation applies to the privacy-destroying US "EZPass" system for highway tolls, of course. Sigh.
A stupid idea (Score:2)
So what else can the Forces of Good do? (Score:2)
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but the whole War On Terror (tm) is founded on the idea that the Bad Guys are too stupid to use any of the fifty thousand or so obvious attacks that we have no way to defend against and instead will attack where the Forces of Truth and Justice (tm) have spent billions on security theater.
It's a really good thing, for instance, that
Congestion Cameras, Oyster, Biobank??? (Score:2)
Potentially more worrying is the attitud
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Even using an anonymous Oyster card (if they continue to exist) topped up with cash will not allow you to hide - since every interaction with the transport system is timestamped, a simple CCTV crosscheck will provide a visual identification.
You can get anonymous cards ? My wife and I just bought a couple for when we're visiting (we're living in Switzerland at the moment and have friends in the UK) and have to give an address to be able to get Oyster cards. These were just some pay-as-you-go cards with 2
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It's not like DNA is actually useful for anything other than identifying you.
Are there actually people in the UK? (Score:2)
For all the outrage on the US about privacy issues, it seems like the UK has been leading in the "Surveillance society" field.
Are there no protests about this sort of thing in the UK? Do the people not care? Or are they already so afraid of being singled out that they'd rather stay silent?
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Are there no protests about this sort of thing in the UK? Do the people not care? Or are they already so afraid of being singled out that they'd rather stay silent?
If you'd RTFA you would have seen that that is the point of the story.
As an aside, this and most other stories of this ilk you read on slashdot are about London. London != the UK. The are only 8m people in London, the other 55 million of us live our daily lives quietly estatic that we don't have to worry about Oyster Cards or Congestion Charges, tube stations or jellied eels; it's unlikely our local police force will shoot us on the way to work and speed cameras are the only things likely to surveil us;
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17 Million? (Score:3, Interesting)
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Or people living around Britain travel to London?
The Olympics are coming up soon?
17 million doesn't seem too far out, although maybe 3/4 of them would be used infrequently.
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~20 million people _work_ in Greater London.
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I live in London and I'd guess that the number is far above 50%. Even those who don't use it on the daily commute do use it from time to time. If you think otherwise, you clearly have never tried to drive a car into central London.
Also, don't forget the millions of people who don't live in London b
Reason for this is moral collapse in the UK... (Score:2)
The totalitarian democracy... (Score:2)
Boycott Oyster (Score:2)
How about a "Boycott Oyster" campaign?
Zapping RFID Passports? (Score:2)
How does someone zap their passport with an RFID embedded in it, without damaging the passport itself?
Why do they store destinations? (Score:2)
How I planned for this (Score:3, Funny)
Another plot foiled (Score:3, Funny)
Abdul: Oh great imam, why is that?
Ahmed: Those infidels, MI5, are now collecting information form Oyster cards. That will force us to buy travelcards or even full price tickets. As we only have a budget of 10 pounds and thirty seven pence for the entire year we cannot afford to place our instruments of terror at the key locations across London.
Abdul: Oh wise one, you are so right. With the help of Saitan, the imperialist infidels have defeated us with this plan. Now the people of London can live without fear of vengeance for their transgressions.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
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