FBI Admits More Privacy Violations 179
kwietman writes "The FBI admitted that in 2006, for the fourth straight year, they improperly accessed phone and internet records of U.S. citizens. Director Robert Mueller testified that the abuses occurred prior to sweeping reforms enacted in 2007, and actually blamed the breaches in part on the telecommunications companies, who submitted more information than was requested. In another unsurprising development, the FBI also underreported the number of security letters - used to authorize wiretaps and to subpoena internet and telecom records - by over 4,600. The use of these letters to identify potential terrorists has, according to the government audit, increased dramatically since the implementation of the Patriot Act. Over 1,000 of these security letters were found to be improper in 2005, and similar numbers were expected for 2006 and 2007."
Right. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Right. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Right. (Score:5, Funny)
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If the FBI is submitting vague requests, it's acting illegally. Amendment IV: "...no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
If the telcos are rolling over and complying with vague requests, then they are accessories to the FBI's crimes.
In a s
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Why don't we quit picking and pulling parts of the constitution out and out of context in order to push a point that is often different then the point in the constitution. This is the same stuff that assholes do to the bible to find where it support
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In a sane world, "the decider" wouldn't be allowed to executive order hims
Telecoms guilty of malpractice (Score:2)
If the telecom companies gave up information -- the minimum necessary that they were required to hand over in order to comply with the law, that could be an justification for immunity.
However, it doesn't sound like most of them did any due-diligence in ensuring the FBI got only the required information and only what the companies were required to hand over. They shouldn't be given a "free ticket" for
every action they've done -- indeed, th
Re:Telecoms guilty of malpractice (Score:4, Insightful)
You start by stating that the telcos should not be granted unlimited immunity for breaking the law. Then in your next statement you basically say, "Unless they only broke it a little bit," and even then only if the government pays its phone bill.
No. Not just no, but hell no. Maybe you're okay with giving up a little of your freedom to the most corrupt administration in history for a little bit of security. I couldn't get enough warm and fuzzy out of that arrangement to allow me to sleep at night. George Bush can stick telco immunity ("if we don't give them a pass, they won't be so willing to break the law next time") right up his ass. I want the FBI out of my business unless they have probably cause and a warrant. Period, end of story.
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Without outrage... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Without outrage... (Score:4, Insightful)
Catching" bad guys is what they think they're doing and no adjustment will be made from within.
Makes you wonder how they are doing catching "bad" guys when they can barely monitor themselves. Time to face up to it, we are living in a Kafkaesque nation.
Re:Without outrage... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why don't we ever see comments like yours in the cuba "sneakernet" article ...yada yada...
Geez I dunno, maybe because I don't live in Cuba, North Korea, Egypt? Maybe because I have no expectations of civil liberties in those countries? Maybe because none of those governments have been telling me my entire life that I live in a nation of laws, have constitutional rights and so forth? Maybe because I spend so much time worrying about my own country and douche bags like you fucking up that I don't have sufficient energy to work myself into a lather about countries I have absolutely no control over?
One wonders ... actually I don't. You just only pick on guys that are guaranteed never to say anything back or hurt you. You are a coward, "making a stand" without risk.
I don't know what "One" wonders but I wonder what the hell you are talking about. Oh, maybe I do. You aren't responding to me at all, are you? You're just reacting to the hate track that never stops playing in your head, bravely fighting whatever fraudulent demon Hannity or Rush stuffed into your tiny brain this afternoon.
What you're doing is not brave, it's not revolutionary, and it's not even moral at all. It's cowardice.
Again, this doesn't make sense. It's just phrases thrown together. Repeat them loud and often enough and they sometime elicit emotion reactions but that doesn't make them any less intellectually vapid.
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Saying something is "intellectually vapid" does not a rebuttal make.
I agree. Somewhere in the middle of slogging through all that hate and venom I resigned myself to the notion that any real rebuttal would be pointless anyway. SirSlud did a much better job.
Re:Without outrage... (Score:5, Insightful)
1) taking issue with behaviour withing our own government than we deem as being incongruent with the basis of western democracy is not a bad thing
2) the fact that I'm not out there fighting these terrible conditions doesn't mean I should be able to attack you for being in the same safe position
If human rights issues bother you so much, go out and do something about them. Picking on somebody who chooses to criticize their own government when they feel it is right to do so is myopic. I swear, people who are convinced that they live in some impenetrable palace of awesomeness are so fucking stupid. If you really think the US is the sole provider of the peace and rational thinking, I've got hundreds of millions of people living in other first world nations who are wondering why you're so recalcitrant to criticize your own government. Its a very important function of democracy, as practiced by way more places than the US.
So stop playing "He started it." If you take issue with the mistreatment of human beings, do something about it, but don't act like just because its pretty minimized in your country that its not worth discussing.
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You make a hell of a lot of assumptions here. I do take issue with a lot of things, even when it means I get blasted. And not just on slashdot. And I do take actions that are, at the very least very controversial.
Tell me, do you think the people of the US would live in relative safety without spiona
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I'll take most strained allegories for 1000$, alex.
If you mean Europe, I'd think again, come over and take a closer look.
I don't. There are other countries outside North America and Europe. I'm just pointing out that calling somebody a coward just b
Capability, Capacity and Intent (Score:2)
Re:Without outrage... (Score:5, Interesting)
Like $1000 per incorrectly tapped phone call? (Not per tap, but per call that occurred while that tap was in place.)
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If you don't know that you were the target of an improper phone tap, I agree. If you know or suspect that you have been phone-tapped, there's almost certainly going to be some evidence of it, especially if it's still in place. At that point, you could probably show some attorney what you've got, and best odds are that it is going to be enough to start something.
At which point some part of the Executive (FBI, Attorney General's office) steps in and says, "We can't publicly talk about your evidence because it might compromise national security; if you talk about it, you'll be arrested." I believe that's what people are unhappy about.
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What would be the point (was:Without outrage...) (Score:2)
What would be the point? It would be paid for by YOUR tax dollars. The douche bags involved lets off the hook. Now if we start talking about SERIOUS jail time in MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON (where Ex-Feds will be fearing for their lives daily) then there might be some deterrent value.
Unfortunately their budget is our money... (Score:2)
This crap about putting process and procedures in place to prevent it from happening again is nonsense. It didn't work last time and it won't work this time because it's asking the fox to watch the hen house. If private industry were as inept at self-regulati
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"for the fourth straight year" (Score:5, Interesting)
No, for some reason not enough people care. Firstly I blame the media -- just like the previous reports, and even the NSA wiretapping scandal, this will show up in the news for a little while then quietly vanish. Secondly I blame people who even when presented with facts by the media just blindly assume that it's all done to catch terrorists and they don't care. They're told the their privacy is being abused, and they mentally convert this into their privacy not being abused, only terrorists and since when do terrorists deserve privacy?
Even Congress -- now Democrat controlled -- doesn't do much but feign shock and dismay that the powers they granted without even reading what they were are being abused.
Some people care, but it just doesn't seem to be enough.
Re:"for the fourth straight year" (Score:4, Insightful)
That's a huge problem right there. Those are the same people who say "I have nothing to hide," but when you ask for all their bank statements and keys to their doors and video cameras in their house... (just keep suggesting more stuff until...) they balk.
And maybe some of the perception is that the government is this magical entity, not made up of people who are your neighbors, or that jerk that cut you off this morning, etc.
All of a sudden, those same people want their privacy. Amazing isn't it?
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And maybe some of the perception is that the government is this magical entity, not made up of people who are your neighbors, or that jerk that cut you off this morning, etc.
Quite a few of them appear to continue to have complete faith in government. Ev
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Re:"for the fourth straight year" (Score:5, Funny)
Oh yeah. It's the media. Why I was just watching something on that...
erm... hang on... Britney just shaved something again...
The House is out of control (Score:2, Insightful)
2) Democrats may be similar as republicans politically; but as a party they are NOT the same. The Dems seem to pride themselves on their 'distributed' nature and lack of organization and uniformity that constantly undercuts them despite historically having the largest membership.
3) Democrats have more in-fighting and less uniformity among their members; nor do they frequently threaten and undermine those who break rank - that is if they even bother to even for
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What most people don't know is that the USPATRIOT act for the most part just added terrorism and spying against the USA as reason that actions from previous laws could be used. In addition it codified various executive orders from the mid-90s and before, made them law and then required tracking and reporting of them.
Catching bad guys (Score:5, Interesting)
He said the prevailing attitude seemed to be "Catch the Bad Guy." At first, this doesn't sound like it conflicts with the LAPD's motto: "To Protect and Serve." But, he explained, there's a huge difference when you think about it: "Catch the Bad Guy" implies treating everyone in a poor fashion just to maybe catch a bad guy. "To Protect and Serve" implies that everyone is innocent, and explicitly that the police must protect everyone and serve the communities in a good fashion as a priority, rather than suspect everyone and treat them badly.
That was almost 20 years ago. The LAPD's CRASH (anti-gang) unit has since been disbanded due to multiple court rulings of unconstitutionality (the LAPD suspected pretty much every minority) and civil liability case rulings/settlements (the LAPD busted more innocent heads than gang members). The attitude is still a problem, and I've seen it with many other police officers in different cities, BUT I'm not saying it's a majority... just a very annoying minority.
The main point here: "Catch the Bad Guy" is an easy trap to fall into, and many may not even realize they're acting this way, or simply don't see the distinction.
The court system is slow, tedious, and money draining -- same as the legislative system. However, we're not seeing our own citizens shot at by itchy-fingered National Guardsmen anymore. I have to remain optimistic, at least about large-scale shifts of thinking...
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He said the prevailing attitude seemed to be "Catch the Bad Guy." At first, this doesn't sound like it conflicts with the LAPD's motto: "To Protect and Serve." But, he explained, there's a huge difference when you think about it: "Catch the Bad Guy" implies treating everyone in a poor fashion just to maybe catch a bad guy.
"Catch the Bad Guy" implies that "the bad guy" is not one of us. It's a matter of perspective because when the reality, that criminals are part of your community, becomes apparent, suddenly the system is harsh & unfair.
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Except that it probably isn't "everyone", e.g. what's likely to happen when the "Bad Guy" is another cop (not even LAPD)?
"To Protect and Serve" implies that everyone is innocent, and e
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Things congress won't care about: our privacy violations
Things congress will care about: Sports players and the drugs they take.
Sometimes I hate America.
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Curious, but such a suggestion appears to run counter to all those very phony ops the Feebs of the FBI have been staging, such as that horrendous op against Scott Ritter, which was quickly thrown out of court with the judge declaring the FBI to be a useless bunch of A-holes. And all those other useless "terrorist" ops perpetrated by the feebs of the FBI.
Whatever became of that anthrax assassin? Oh, of course the feebs of the FBI were much too bus
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It's also a definition of "The dice aren't loaded.".
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With the response being "more of the same". Rather than thinking (just maybe) "we n
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Of course there are those who could care less and just let things go whichever way it goes. If they're not willing to fight for civil liberties then that group are basically part of the first group.
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Except that it often isn't that simple. A significent proportion of the former want other people's civil liberties infringed whilst their own are protected. Rarely do you find government officials lining up to be spied on...
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there are other points of view on these issues. There is a single right or wrong position.
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Only if we define "crime" as "an action that violates, or credibly threatens to violate, the rights of another". Reducing prostitution, drug use, etcetera, by 20% isn't a goal worth sacrificing a damn thing.
Reducing real crime is a worthy goal - but we must understand that every unjust arrest is a kidnapping, every warrantless search is an instance of trespass, every unjustified shooting by a cop is
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It would be perfectly possible to reduce crime significently by abandoning prohibition and treating prostitution like any other business.
Reducing real crime is a worthy goal - but we must understand that every unjust arrest is a kidnapping, every warrantless search is an instance of trespass, every u
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Or they would be were it not for the fact that they don't even appear to have caught everyone who was "knocking on their front door"... Had they been you'd have expected them to have netted quite a varied assortment of terrorist groups.
OMG!!! (Score:2)
Of course they did. I don't like it, and I'd like to see it stop, but the reality is that the Feds are watching you.
Use encryption.
I'm not a U.S. citizen.... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Are the errors they are announcing a random selection or are they only bothering to announce the most minor ones?
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Grim Outlook (Score:5, Insightful)
Stazi couldn't keep constant surveillance over all of the citizens of East Germany because the technology did not exist to obtain, process, store, and organize this data. Yet they tried, and got fairly close to being able to track anyone who even remotely questioned the regime.
Now we're getting close to the point where total surveillance of the citizenry is actually feasible. To expect that bureaucracy will go ahead with such a project is awfully optimistic. The goal of any political system is the preservation of status quo, and total surveillance is a very important step to ensure that no perturbations to the system can result from any member of the population that chooses to think for themselves.
Whether or not we're willing to tolerate this, is the question, because there is no doubt in my mind that it will happen.
Perhaps we should start with re-examining the concept of privacy, and decide precisely the level of privacy we're comfortable with.
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Well, I think I speak for all Americans when I say we don't mind the pedophiles or the terrorists, but we absolutely must protect our citizens from televangelists... no, wait....
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Wow. Really tough crowd....
Re:Grim Outlook (Score:5, Insightful)
While the document contained glaring flaws like the 3/5 Compromise [wikipedia.org], the Bill of Rights, if followed, would actually support protection of individuals from states and states from the Fed.
Just have to have a reasonable transition plan to ease the country out of the velvet handcuffs of entitlements.
Some of the presidential candidates are out to worsen the problem. Watch out for them.
Much too late (Score:5, Insightful)
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Same goes with welfare. Representation without taxation.
Just as horrifying as taxation without representation in my opinion.
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Artile I. Sec 8 - To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
It could be argued the expectation is the state militias would serve as the standing armies and called into national service (and paid for) when needed.
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Whether or not we're willing to tolerate this, is the question
Sadly its already been asked and answered.
Re:Grim Outlook (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yet they completly failed to spot that the GDR was about to become history...
Now we're getting close to the point where total surveillance of the citizenry is actually feasible. To expect that bureaucracy will go ahead with such a
Immunity my ass (Score:5, Insightful)
Who needs abusive government bureaucracies to abuse our rights when corporations can do the job even better?
It's time to drag the paranoid, power-hungry trolls responsible for these outrages out into the sunlight for a little disinfecting.
Issue the subpoenas, investigate these abuses, and, yes, impeach the president. Even if he wasn't responsible for this debacle, then he's derelict in his duties to uphold the constitution.
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Who needs abusive government bureaucracies to abuse our rights when corporations can do the job even better?
Well, it has been said for a long time that the private sector is more efficient than the public sector - you're just seeing a prime example!
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And who issues those subpoenas? Exactly, the same folks who have been committing these abuses! Sigh. I fear that, at this point, only a massive uprise from the people will turn the tide. Fortunately, as these things go, you don't actually need a full 'revolution': just turn far enough for the idle masses to realize that they've been playing the wrong team and finally dare to stand up. In eight years, I've seen your country tu
What, you said what? (Score:2, Insightful)
Like warrantless wiretapping, right? Yeah, we definitely shouldn't have that.
No, stop, please don't give us that much data! (Score:5, Funny)
FBI: Hello, AT&T, can we have the phone records for 123-555-6789? As you can see here, we have a warrant here to tap that number, because it belongs to Osama Bin Laden. In fact, it says so right on the caller ID!
AT&T: Why, certainly! And while we're at it, here are the records for several hundred thousand Americans who are completely or only tangentially related. We hope this helps!
FBI: No, please, stop! We don't want that data!
AT&T: Don't be so modest. Here's a few hundred thousand more!
FBI: Please! Stop! Don't! You're offending the very values upon which J. Edgar Hoover built this place!
That's exactly how it happened.
These are not the letters you are looking for. (Score:2, Insightful)
I like the way that the Orwellian type language of the WOT infiltrates supposedly objective news. First, the phrasing suggests that more potential terrorists are identified from the use of the letters. Better, and more correct would be "attempt to identify potential terrorists". Second, the notion of "potential" terrorists bothers me to no end
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I believe the correct line is "Everyone has the potential to be a terrorist given the right environment, the right situation, and the right materials." Scary, but true. Someone once said that the only difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is the way history views them, and that's absolutely true when you think about it. The Boston Tea Party bordered on a terrorist act when you think about it. And don't get me started on the American Revolution.
We need to pull our heads out of our collecti
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Actually it can be an even simpler case of "what side do you support"?
The Boston Tea Party bordered on a terrorist act when you think about it. And don't get me started on th
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It's a strong motivation to develop alternatives to relying on said oligopoly.
Regardless of whether you pay "market price" or "higher than market price", you're still paying money to quote members of which fund and breed terrorists unquote. Want to dry up the funding for terrorist organizations ? Here's one place to start.
I'm the optimist (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that this information can be found via audits and released publicly signals that our system of government is working pretty well. An effective executive branch (one that can actually protect the innocent) requires some power to operate; that power will be mishandled because the people wielding it are human, meaning they are lazy, incompetent, unfocused. In some cases they may be malicious, but this is a worry for anyone wielding any power anywhere, from prosecutors to defense lawyers to legislators to judges to policemen to presidents.
Re:I'm the optimist (Score:4, Insightful)
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And the fallibility of humans is precisely why we are supposed to have checks and balances in our government, and illustrates why the current situation is unacceptable. It's a lot less likely that someone is improperly targeted with a wiretap if the judicial branch has to review the facts and approve it. If the executive branch is acting properly, what does it have to hide from judicial review?
They can't tell you what they're hiding because it's a matter of national security. Our lives depend on it.
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If you're lucky, you get the retroac
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It also reduces effectivness of law enforcement. Left to their own devices cops are likely to be too busy spying on the politically incorrect and those attempting political change through democratic means to have much time for terrorist conspiracies, gangsters, high crimes, etc.
If they actually named the specific people who were spied on improperly, then those individuals
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So, here's a logical solution... (Score:3, Interesting)
And they want immunity? (Score:2)
There are two main problems (Score:4, Insightful)
This leads to the second problem. The agencies responsible implementing the legislation or using the new powers are not bound by the politicians admonitions about their use. In fact, quite the opposite it true- their very nature and mission encourages them to take the full advantage of whatever powers, rules or procedural changes are implemented in the framework of legislation and common law under which they operate. The only way they can determine the true boundaries of their new powers or a new law is by a process of trial and error, generally involving court cases and other legal mechanisms.
Which is all fine and is the way that laws have been passed and refined by courts for a considerable period of time (if disasterous if you are the individual caught up in a grey area). However it becomes rather more slippery when the implementation of the legislation in question is subject to national security constraints, secret courts, exceptions for back-filling of paperwork and other get-out clauses.
Whilst I might object strenously to the notion that the FBI should be able to tap into my conversations without a warrant or that the UK govt. might like to lock me up for 42 days without charge on spurious 'security' related charges, my most strenuous objections are to the lack of transparency and oversight by independent judiciary in open court or similarly ungagged proceedings.
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Politicans may well have a different definition of "appropriate" than either the general population or the interests of their country. There are plenty of
Article has the wrong title (Score:2, Interesting)
Slashdot and Politics (Score:2)
Anyone think we need a "presidentsanalyst" tag? (Score:2, Interesting)
In the words of the late great Frank Zappa (Score:2, Funny)
The FBI gonna get your number
They already got your picture
The FBI
And your fingerprints too.
(Has anyone seen GW Bush and Richard Nixon in the same room together? Exactly.)
Hey baby, I used to do top-secret work for the FBI (Score:2)
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Re:Sorry for being a broken record (Score:5, Interesting)
And actually his stance on privacy is just a symptom of having a government that doesn't actually work. It's easy to have a government that does no wrong when it doesn't do ANYTHING. A real visionary would find a way to have a functional, utilitarian government AND protect privacy, civil rights, and promote a peaceful non-interventionist foreign policy; and for that I am sorry his voice is marginalized, he has a lot of good things to say on those issues.