Scientology Given Direct Access To eBay Database 684
An anonymous reader writes "The Church of Scientology can delete auctions from eBay with no supervision under the VeRO program, and has used this to delete all resale of the e-meters Scientologists use. This is to stop members from buying used units from ex-members instead of buying from the official (and very expensive) source. Given Scientology's record of fraud and abuse, should eBay give them this level of trust? Will this set a precedent for other companies that want to stop the aftermarket resale of their products?"
short answer (Score:5, Insightful)
This is favoritism. Microsoft doesn't even have this ability to stop the resale of their software.
Is this legal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, I'm no lawyer, but I've heard that everyone on Slashdot is.
how direct an access is what bother me more (Score:4, Insightful)
do they also have access to customer info? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet another reason to not use EBay or PayPal.
easy answer -or- +5 insightful (Score:1, Insightful)
No.
Uh, what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps if they wanted to curb the resale of their devices, they should offer some sort of buy back program? They'll still turn around and sell them again and make a profit.
bordering on illegal (Score:2, Insightful)
Ah, one more good reason... (Score:4, Insightful)
...to stop using eBay to sell your used stuff.
Re:how direct an access is what bother me more (Score:3, Insightful)
Ebay is right on schedule (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What fraud and abuse? (Score:1, Insightful)
Scientology is to fraud and abuse as Microsoft is to monopolistic practices
Both have been convicted in a court of law.
Re:VERO Program (Score:4, Insightful)
In any case, it's a lazy way for EBay to enforce rights compliance.
Similarly, Mormon garments are another item that seem to take advantage of this program, so it's not exactly unheard of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment/ [wikipedia.org]
Re:short answer (Score:1, Insightful)
Different religions have different takes on things.
Sure you won't get sued, you may however get imprisoned, lashed, deported or worse for naming a teddy bear or drawing a cartoon.
It's just CoS being CoS (Score:3, Insightful)
. So, really, no harm done all-around, I say.
mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:My guess is... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a given that CoS will abuse eBay's information. I guess it's already too late to purge my account.
Holy crap NO (Score:5, Insightful)
Given Scientology's record of fraud and abuse, should eBay give them this level of trust?
The answer is right there. Would you want any group with Scientology's record of fraud and abuse to have access to anything important?
What do you want to bet they'd pull auctions of other Scientology-questionable stuff that isn't e meters?
Put a DVD copy of Anonymous' Scientology protests [youtube.com] up for sale and watch what happens. What do you want to bet that it winds up deleted? Blocking e meter sales my ass - this is nothing more than some goofy cult making decisions about what you're allowed to buy. Don't let it happen!
These people are batshit fucking insane. Don't legitimize them by giving them any sort of power, control, or authority whatsoever.
Most important reason: (Score:5, Insightful)
According to eBay's VeRO ToS they will gladly hand this information over.
Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
What they're really trying to control is the purchase of scientology collectables by non-scientologists.
Completely Misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
The VeRO program does not provide direct access to eBay's database to delete items. It is a fast-track for manufacturers to submit deletion requests for items they believe are infringing on their copyrights. Every time an auction is deleted, the VeRO program gives eBay the proper documents holding the manufacturers legally responsible for their claim of copyright infringement.
Taking a simple look at the program's description [ebay.com] reveals that ANY auction being deleted through this program can be reinstated, automatically, by the user, within 10 days. They simply have to do the same thing the manufacturer did: claim legal responsibility for their auction, in writing.
Now, there's no doubt that I, as a private individual, would never risk challenging the very well funded battery of lawyers the Church of Scientology has to keep me in line. Even though I know they have no leg to stand on, I can't afford the legal battle. But I wouldn't cry that its eBay's fault, when eBay gave me the option to directly challenge the "manufacturer".
yes of course it is (Score:5, Insightful)
The C of S is not "preventing the resale of their product," they're just preventing the resale through E-Bay and with E-Bay's cooperation. You can still put an ad in the paper and sell it, or put up a notice in your neighborhood market, or just walk around town with a sign attached to you saying "E-Meter Cheap!"
And who gives a shit what the lawyers think? Why should the law be relevant here? This isn't a question you want the lawyers thinking about, because you can be damn sure that any solution they think up is going to cost you far more in cash and personal liberty than you would like to part with. Do you want there to be a law telling you what you can and cannot sell on your personal website? Do you want to have to get your Craigslist ad vetted by the police before it can go up? Do you want the FBI to have the right to interrogate you about whether you sold your pet cat or unused furniture to the right people, and in the right way?
Christ, let us keep the lawyers in the fridge, OK? If there's a big market for secondhand E-meters, and E-Bay foolishly foregoes it because they want to keep the Scientologists happy, then let someone start up a private website devoted to reselling E-Meters, and he will make scads of money, more than enough to dare the "Church" to sue him, and get their clueless clock cleaned and get hit for beaucoup lawyer fees on top of it.
But what I suspect is that ex-Scientologists who want to recoup some of the financial loss associated with their recent vacation from rationality are a very small group, and while it kinda sucks that when there's very few of you and a whole lot of someone else (in this case, non-ex-Scientologists, or pre-ex-Scientologists), you have to tread carefully, that's just life in a wide-open democracy. It's not like an intelligent and determined person can't work around this problem fairly easily. I'm sure if I had an E-Meter to sell, I could do it easily enough without E-Bay or the Church getting a clue. Probably my 16-year-old could, too.
Well, I just altered my auctions... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:a bit misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:$3700 Wheatstone bridges? (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, as a result of the fruitless '60-s investication of the CoS and it's E-meters by the IRS, the church had to add a disclaimer on all E-meters sold since then that the device in itself did nothing and was only to be used by trained or in-training Scientology ministers. Perhaps this is one reason that is motivating them to control the resale of used E-meters- so that they aren't accused of violating that '60s ruling by the IRS.
That's my $.02
Re:short answer (Score:2, Insightful)
However, I think it is reaching to say (or suggest/infer/whatever) that eBay has no right to do this because it impinges your right to resell stuff.
Yes, you do have a right to resell any thing or object you've legally acquired. But you don't have a right to do it on eBay. You buy and/or sell stuff on eBay according to eBay's terms, just as with any other service provider. As frustrating as it may be at times, eBay has the right to limit what is sold on their site. I think they're totally out of their gourd, mind you, but they are within their rights.
Re:short answer (Score:2, Insightful)
Suicide? (Score:1, Insightful)
The sick thing? I'm certain that, even if they had nothing to do with it, Scientologists will chalk this up as a "win"
Re:short answer (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:short answer (Score:5, Insightful)
They run a despicable business that can only survive thanks to litigation.
This story of E-bay associating with CO$ cannot possibly be good for E-bay's reputation.
Re:short answer (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:3, Insightful)
What sane and rational person would want an "e-meter" anyway?
(As AC, so feel free to mod me -1 Jerk
It's functional? (Score:4, Insightful)
And: it sounds like it was named by an eight-year-old.
Church (Score:2, Insightful)
Insisting that they are a Church really isn't fair to the other religions humanity knows. Nevermind they use a name with "church" in it (not in Israel..!). AFAIK Scientology is a company run by greedy, manipulative lunatics for sheer profit.
The weak minded and gullible are indoctrinated and *scammed* (which is an important point) by their people.
Come to think of it.. it is actually hard to draw a line what a church is. In the old times the christian Church scammed its members aswell (and banished its non-members). Scientologists are, as it seems, prohibitively aggressive.
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:2, Insightful)
Just like followers of the Catholic Church ("contraception is evil"), some flavours of Islam ("kill those infidels"), and pretty much all religious fundamentalists (those people calling their offspring "Baby Jesus", for example).
All pretty funny, IMO. If I didn't think it's funny I'd probably be very depressed.
Re:Off topic, yet... (Score:1, Insightful)
A member "drowning" in a tub of scalding hot bathwater shortly after reaching a high level OT and the Church finding out he was broke.
People throwing themselves in front of trains.
People shooting/hanging themselves.
A guy jumping out a window to his death, clutching his last $300, his "suicide note" claiming the Church at least would never get that money from him.
A car being worked on by an ex-member mysteriously falls off the lift onto him while he is working on it. He had been attempting to save his sister from Scientology during the timeframe that this occurred. His mother, several thousand miles away in Mexico, claims to have seen two men messing with the car/lift in a vision or dream right before the event. Interesting tie-in: another former Scientology member and open critic investigating this case "committed suicide" by shotgun in the same building that the mother lived in.
There are many more stories like this. Usually involving people who have A) criticized the Church openly B) attempted to cause legal problems for the Church C) were members who ran out of money.
Re:Church (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Off topic, yet... (Score:1, Insightful)
-Anonymous
I talked to my eBay Rep about this... (Score:2, Insightful)
No, *do* laugh at them (Score:5, Insightful)
Think about the South Park episode that went through the entire theology of the CoS, with a big blinking sign that read "This is what Scientologists actually believe" over the animation. That was even more effective than the "Dum Dum Dum Dum Dum" song refrain about the Mormons, all the more so since there was no attempt at all at the end of the episode to paint actual CoS members as decent human beings, unlike the Mormon episode.
Laugh at them.
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:5, Insightful)
What is eBay thinking? I'm not going to read TFA because it'll probably make my head hurt, but I'm hoping this was some oversight on eBay's part and the outcry is going to make them re-evaluate this "vErO" policy or whatever the hell it's called. I don't see why anybody should have this level of access to eBay besides the folks who administer the site. So this means that if I put a used computer up for sale on eBay Microsoft can delete it because there's a good chance that it has Windows on it? Disney can delete my auction of a used copy of The Little Mermaid? Or how about Apple being able to delete my auction of an old iPod (including 5000 mp3s)?
I suppose it's just too much trouble to expect a third party to have to write a C&D letter to eBay, sort of like how it's too much trouble for the NSA to get an after-the-fact warrant signed by a judge before they listen in on the phone calls of US citizens.
I'd like to say I'll never deal with eBay again, except for the fact that I've never dealt with eBay in the first place. I do like to barter through the Illinois Trade Association, though. If you think auctions are a cool way to do business, you really need to check out barter. It's one way to keep the government out of your grill.
Re:Off topic, yet... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Don't tell Chef but (Score:2, Insightful)
This isn't to say that the IRS wouldn't try to get taxes from you but most bartering stuff is done under the table and unless you're doing massive amounts the IRS will never know.
Not to be paranoid... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Church (Score:5, Insightful)
Scientology @ebay (Score:1, Insightful)