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Examining the Search and Seizure of Electronics at Airports 699

Angus McKraken brings us a Washington Post story about how travelers are seeking more well-defined policies and rules about the search and seizure of electronic devices by U.S. Customs officials. The EFF has already taken legal action over similar concerns. We recently discussed the related issue of requiring people to disclose their passwords in order to search their private data. From the Post: "Maria Udy, a marketing executive with a global travel management firm in Bethesda, said her company laptop was seized by a federal agent as she was flying from Dulles International Airport to London in December 2006. Udy, a British citizen, said the agent told her he had 'a security concern' with her. 'I was basically given the option of handing over my laptop or not getting on that flight,' she said. 'I was assured that my laptop would be given back to me in 10 or 15 days,' said Udy, who continues to fly into and out of the United States. She said the federal agent copied her log-on and password, and asked her to show him a recent document and how she gains access to Microsoft Word. She was asked to pull up her e-mail but could not because of lack of Internet access. With ACTE's help, she pressed for relief. More than a year later, Udy has received neither her laptop nor an explanation."
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Examining the Search and Seizure of Electronics at Airports

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10, 2008 @09:59AM (#22369220)
    Y'all just keep on sleepwalking, the government is taking care of everything...
  • by Aranykai ( 1053846 ) <slgonser&gmail,com> on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:10AM (#22369282)
    Lets see them figure out how to access Microsoft Word without their fancy "Start" button.
  • Can you do this? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by yabos ( 719499 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:17AM (#22369332)
    If you don't want your stuff taken can't you just tell them to fuck off and leave the airport. That is if you're in your own country I mean.
  • by ms1234 ( 211056 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:21AM (#22369352)
    What a great way to find out about company secrets. And if they are on an encrypted volume? Dare you travel there anymore?
  • by ScrewMaster ( 602015 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:24AM (#22369374)
    where a traveler would be better off shipping his or her laptop separately rather than trying to take it on a plane. This is starting to get out of hand: confiscating personal property without cause? What the Hell? The government must be running short on laptops, I guess. Twenty years ago I'd have said this could never happen here, if anyone had asked. Sorry to see that I'd have been wrong.

    In 1984, I remember my aunt flew from Chicago to Boston, with a .44 Magnum and a box of cartridges in her suitcase. Nobody noticed, nobody cared, she didn't even think twice about it (I'll tell you though, had there been any boxcutter-wielding bastards on that plane she'd have killed them all. You don't know my aunt.) Can you imagine trying that today? One group of Islamic assholes causes some damage and just look at what we've done to ourselves.

    I'm still proud of my country but not as much as I used to be. That bothers me. What also bothers me is that bad behavior on the part of the TSA and other government organs is in danger of becoming institutionalized, which will make it very difficult to eliminate.
  • by MichaelKaiserProScri ( 691448 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:25AM (#22369380)
    I am unclear if that is being offered as an option. If I cannot take my laptop with me on a business trip, there is no point in doing the trip. I am a Software Engineer and my laptop is the primary tool with which I do my job. If I do not have it, I cannot work. Furthermore, in many cases the contents of my laptop are far more valuable than the device itself. As far as I am concerned, the device is disposable, the data is what is valuable. Yes, I keep a backup, but there is always that last little bit I have just done that is not in the backup yet....
  • by jacksonj04 ( 800021 ) <> on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:29AM (#22369404) Homepage
    When he took it and you were "guaranteed" you would get it back in a few days, ask for it in writing, on headed paper, signed by the guy who took your laptop and his supervisor.
  • by rpp3po ( 641313 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:30AM (#22369408)
    Can't believe this happening in a country which promotes itself as a global exporter of freedom. Do Americans just sit at home and watch this as just another ironic comedy on their TVs?
  • by localroger ( 258128 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:32AM (#22369420) Homepage
    And I'm pretty sure you don't get your airfare back. And you probably get on a list that makes sure it will happen every single time you ever try to fly again in the future. The stupid thing here is she did everything they asked, and they still stole her laptop. I can't see any rationalization for that.
  • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:35AM (#22369448) Homepage
    Yes you do have the option to tell them to Fuck-off.

    That gives you the free anal cavity search option. and no you cant just walk away from them, that let's them tase you and then anal search you. Every single TSA agent has a major anus fetish going, when you pay them $11.50 an hour you cant be picky, so they hire them fresh from the prisons.
  • Ohh man.. (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:37AM (#22369458)
    With all of this crap happening, I believe less people wants to do business with the united states. They got over-paranoid at trying to control what goes in-and-out of their country, and it irritates people over time. I really don't want to flamebait, but this is a racist issue? How many stories like that have we heard in the past years of people from the middle east having problem crossing the borders of the states?
  • by krischik ( 781389 ) <krischik@users.s ... t ['efo' in gap]> on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:40AM (#22369470) Homepage Journal
    While you are right doing so will take so long that you will miss your plane. In fact creating/using tight time contrainst is one of the three main ingredinence for any kind con jobs to cheat you out of your property.
  • Well one more reason for me to remove the US off possible holiday destinations. Of course the poor guy was on a buisiness trip and had no choice.

  • by pdwalker ( 113292 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:43AM (#22369484)
    All it means is that those retards would be more likely to confiscate it because they don't recognize what it is.
  • by Maxo-Texas ( 864189 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:56AM (#22369554)
    For what it is worth, you see examples of both being hit in this thread-- the example of the disabled elderly vet above being one.

    Let's not make it about race-- it is about seizure of property without cause.

  • by cp.tar ( 871488 ) <> on Sunday February 10, 2008 @10:57AM (#22369566) Journal

    myself, but what if you shipped your laptop to and from wherever you were going by
    FedEx or whatever?

    They still open the package in the customs and charge you heavily just for opening it. And they can do whatever they want to with it while it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it.

    Therefore, many layers of TrueCrypt, fake data, semi-real data, and what-not else...
    What does TSA stand for, anyway? Techno Stasi of America?

  • by ScrewMaster ( 602015 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @11:01AM (#22369602)
    Oh, I'm well aware of that and I knew someone would point it out (this being Slashdot) but that's only an issue if the plane is traveling at cruising altitude. If you're going to shoot a terrorist, wait until the plane is down to a couple thousand feet. You can survive a few holes then (hell, a plane coming in to Florida some years ago lost a good part of the upper fuselage, and other than one flight attendant being sucked out, nobody else was killed.)

    Whether or not passengers should be armed or not is really a separate issue, I was just commenting on the difference between how we perceive security since that time (although a heavily-armed populace tends to be secure against people with boxcutter knives.) Sure, if some security person had noticed that gun, it would have been confiscated, she might have been questioned, but there wouldn't have been much more to it than that. Nowadays ... well, I'd probably be visiting her in prison, because the presumption would be that she intended to do harm with that weapon. Guilty, and we don't much care if you're innocent. Back then, the presumption would have been that she made a mistake.

    More to the point, it's hard for me to understand how stealing laptops helps me be more secure (if you confiscate something and never return it, well, pretty much you just stole it.) Demonstrating that a device functions as expected ... okay, I guess I can buy that. At least you know it's not a dummy packed full of C4. But insisting that passengers reveal passwords, and then just confiscating the equipment anyway? What is going on here? The government can call it "intelligence gathering" if it wants, but this is way out of line.

    Time for that TrueCrypt partition, I guess.
  • by Aaron5367 ( 1049126 ) <> on Sunday February 10, 2008 @11:02AM (#22369606) Homepage
    Isn't this just what the terrorists want? Us to fear them?

    What ever happened to our liberties making us great, not our lack of them?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10, 2008 @11:11AM (#22369690)
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
  • not the answer (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tacokill ( 531275 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @11:15AM (#22369730)
    The answer, of course, is to rely on your employer. Let me explain.

    Go ahead and fight them. I mean - do not let them search your laptop until forced to do so. Cite your company's information as the reason. Perhaps individual privacy is gone but we still have some sanctity for corporate data. It doesn't even have to be trademark/copyright/legally protected data. It just has to be data that your company deems 'private and confidential'. If people start missing flights because of over-ambitious TSA agents, eventually, businesses will start screaming about these searches....if they aren't already. Not only are they overly intrusive but they are causing losses in a very real way. Measurable losses.

    Anyone from Oracle or MSFT read this post? How would you feel about your laptop being held like this? How about someone from Adobe or Boeing? What about the big-3 car companies? Consulting companies?

    There are lots of businesses that require international travel and I am betting they don't want some $10.50/hr TSA employee reading your laptop anymore than you do. I expect employers to enter the fray any second now. They will not stand for this unless there are some checks and balances. They have no interest in writing off confiscated assets because of over zealous TSA agents and they are (unfortunately) our best defense.

  • Re:Shouldda Waited (Score:5, Insightful)

    by QCompson ( 675963 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @11:17AM (#22369750)

    She shouldda waited for that Supreme Court case that said divulging your password was a violation of your 5th amendment right.
    Don't get ahead of yourself. It was a federal magistrate in Vermont that gave that ruling, not the Supreme Court. We have no idea what the SCOTUS would do in such a situation... especially if it involves child pornography. They've been known to make exceptions to the Constitution when it comes to child pornography.
  • by walt-sjc ( 145127 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @11:25AM (#22369814)
    What the terrorists want is to disrupt our lives, and cause fear. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. We have already lost the "war."
  • by Shohat ( 959481 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @11:37AM (#22369912) Homepage
    Nowadays, people who could have made a real change by marching in the streets, burning tires and protesting these horrible things, simply type away furiously, and think that someone cares.
    The Internet is a microscopic, meaningless medium for message delivery, and nothing proves it better than Ron Paul. You want to make a change? Stop blogging, making videos and writing articles, and start fighting with legislation, with money, with burning tires and real 100,000 people marches. The Internet created this idiotic illusion that a bunch of people supporting each other can make a difference. Well here's your fucking wake-up call. Reality has not changed.
    I am not from the US, and what's "worse" I am from Israel, but it saddens me to see your nation giving up so many values that has made it great.
  • by a whoabot ( 706122 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @12:05PM (#22370142)
    If you read Qutb, that so-called "grandfather" of Al-Qaeda or whatever, he has this book called Milestones, the thing he writes about America that he hates it simply because it's "un-Islamic" particularly the sexualisation and gender-mixing (that is, unrelated women and men meeting each other), and materialism of the culture. He does mention freedom though as something he hates about it, but I'm pretty sure he's talking licence regarding holy practises, not freedom in the founding fathers sense.
  • Re:Decoy Data (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mrchaotica ( 681592 ) * on Sunday February 10, 2008 @12:07PM (#22370162)

    There's a simple fix to this.

    That's not a fix. That's a workaround, and a shitty one at that! The real fix is to destroy the TSA, and get our civil liberties back!

  • by aseth ( 893952 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @12:17PM (#22370228)
    They hate us for our freedoms!
    Luckily for us, we've cleverly ensured that they don't have that cause to hate us anymore! Right?
  • You're mistaken. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by raehl ( 609729 ) <raehl311@yahoo.GAUSScom minus math_god> on Sunday February 10, 2008 @12:21PM (#22370260) Homepage
    You don't burn tires because burning tires, by itself, does anything. The government doesn't care how many tires you burn. They just shoot you with rubber bullets (or real bullets, or fire hoses) and move on.

    You burn tires because when you burn tires and the government shoots you, you get in the newspaper, and the article talks about what act of the government you found so egregious that you picked a sure-to-lose fight with its better-armed agents.

    There's a reason we don't use fire hoses anymore - and it's not because (directly) it's inhumane. We don't do it because it generates too much press.

    The internet lets you have the same effect as burning tires without having to get shot first. The real media is lazy. They don't want to have to go down to the National Mall every time somebody burns a tire any more than you really want to go down there and burn tires. They would much prefer to sit in their comfy office, read blogs, and report on what people are blogging about. You can get the same press with blogging nowadays as you can get with tire burning.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10, 2008 @12:26PM (#22370290)
    Insist on clearing it with your FSO -- facility security officer. Call your facility security officer, and say that a TSA employee is asking for access to your laptop, and that you have no evidence of their 'need to know' to access your non-classified but limited distribution military project data. That way you have started the paper trail to be reported to DSS, at least. When you return, remember to ask your FSO if they need anything from you for a report to DSS. Hopefully you can push the whole problem to DSS, where it belongs -- they should handle unauthorized access to military data, especially if done under threat of force. They can report it to FBI and relevant military intelligence.

  • by Raven42rac ( 448205 ) * on Sunday February 10, 2008 @12:28PM (#22370312)
    We're just human cattle to them. If someone really wanted to do something, he/she could just blow up the hundreds of people waiting at the bottleneck BEFORE security screening.
  • by pipatron ( 966506 ) <> on Sunday February 10, 2008 @12:32PM (#22370334) Homepage

    What do the "worlds baddest guys" hate the most about America? Out Constitution.

    Actually, no one outside the US cares about your constitution. We care more about how you randomly invade countries without reason, how you try to enforce your local laws and policy on weaker nations, and things like that.

  • by ScrewMaster ( 602015 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @12:35PM (#22370348)
    Let's get right to the core ... not only is this not about race, as such, it's not even about property (the Feds couldn't care less about some used pieces of consumer electronics.) It's about the information stored in them. That's what they want, for any of a number of reasons. Whether it be terrorist plans, corporate info of one kind or another, or for that matter any examples of copyright infringement they can find (and, of course, any good porn) it's all about the data. They've said as much: it's intelligence gathering.
  • Encrypt Everything (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mlwmohawk ( 801821 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @12:57PM (#22370534)
    This is the SECOND time I've posted this advice:

    Use Linux
    Use and encrytped drive.
    Have a "functional" environment that is unencrypted that has nothing more challenging than an email about how you think U.S. government is doing everything right and how the shrub is gods ear piece.

    We need to do what the French did in WWII. When the Nazi's ask for your papers, make sure you show them nice pleasant things. Transmit everything back and forth over the internet (encrypted locally).

    The Nazi movement, or The Nazis began to take over the USA starting with Roy Cohn and Senator McCarthy in the '50s, through Nixon, Reagan, Bush I/II.

    Can ANYONE dispute that this description: []

    Does not describe what is becoming of the U.S.A, the U.K. and a lesser extent the rest of Europe?

    The irony is that while Hitler and his armies were defeated in WWII, the power brokers and players that created him live on in power.
  • by dosun88888 ( 265953 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @01:21PM (#22370742) Homepage
    I'm pretty sure that they just want us to stop helping out Israel and get our military the hell away from their countries. Our government is technically winning because they're still doing whatever the hell they want to do, and the only cost is our freedom.

    The biggest losers in this war are our children. They will get to grow up in a police state because their parents didn't have the balls to stand up and say "no more."
  • by Idiomatick ( 976696 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @01:29PM (#22370806)
    Honestly i am curious how effective a sniper rifle would be on a plane.
  • by blincoln ( 592401 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @01:49PM (#22370994) Homepage Journal
    This isn't about "outsiders." Muslims have developed a reputation for terrorism and troublemaking (which is strictly their own fault). As a result, anyone who looks like they might be a Muslim is subjected to extra scrutiny. It's just common sense.

    This isn't about "outsiders." Jews have developed a reputation for financial conspiracy and troublemaking (which is strictly their own fault). As a result, anyone who looks like they might be a Jew is subjected to extra scrutiny. It's just common sense.

    This isn't about "outsiders." The Irish have developed a reputation for drunken violence and terrorism (which is strictly their own fault). As a result, anyone who looks like they might be Irish is subjected to extra scrutiny. It's just common sense.

    This isn't about "outsiders." The Japanese and Germans have developed a reputation for covert operations on behalf of their homelands while living in the United States (which is strictly their own fault). As a result, anyone who looks like they might be Asian (it's too hard to tell the difference) or German is subjected to extra scrutiny. It's just common sense.
  • by Raven42rac ( 448205 ) * on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:06PM (#22371184)
    They're trying to prevent something that's already happened.
  • by Kazymyr ( 190114 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:07PM (#22371188) Journal
    ...theft of laptops at airports...

    It's not theft. It's called DHS discount and it tends to occur a lot around birthdays and holidays.
  • by Scrameustache ( 459504 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:07PM (#22371194) Homepage Journal

    We're just human cattle to them.
    If someone really wanted to do something, he/she could just blow up the hundreds of people waiting at the bottleneck BEFORE security screening.
    I guess one could make a trigger mechanism that would be set off by the metal detector itself... dammit, now I'm thinking like an engineer/terrorist!
  • by The Spoonman ( 634311 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:07PM (#22371208) Homepage
    Irag II: Saddam had WMD (used it on Kurdish villagers in the 80s).

    Like a true American, you not only spelled the name of the country wrong (and the Freudian subtlety of the misspelling is particularly telling), you forgot to mention a) why the US did nothing about that back in the 80s aside from affirming our "friendship" to Saddam and giving him another $1 billion in military aid right after and b) where Saddam had gotten the technology for that gas and its means of distribution. (I'll give you a hint: you were trying to defend that country's "honor")

    The spread of communism was feared.

    And, what happens when the spread of American-brand "democracy" is feared? It's only so long before everyone gets tired of having "freedom" bombed into them.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:25PM (#22371370)
    The problem is that 'freedom' has become a tool of subjugation. People pursuing their dreams have amassed their collection of toys. These do not wish to lose their toys and so they shut up and behave.

  • by TClevenger ( 252206 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:31PM (#22371426)
    Yup. Part of the construction at one airport a couple of years ago (I think Oakland) put a couple of hundred people waiting at the baggage claim in a relatively small room with a hundred people waiting to get through security. I told my wife, "If these people are smart, they won't bother with the planes; there's a 747-load right here."
  • 2008 Campaign (Score:3, Insightful)

    by PPH ( 736903 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:32PM (#22371440)
    So, why aren't more people asking the various presidential candidates what they intend to do to restore the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the rule of law once elected to office?
  • by Zak3056 ( 69287 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:34PM (#22371456) Journal

    The Nazi movement, or The Nazis began to take over the USA starting with Roy Cohn and Senator McCarthy in the '50s, through Nixon, Reagan, Bush I/II.

    You're delusional.

    Not because of the point you're raising (I believe it's a valid one, though I would not use the word "nazi" to describe what is happening) but because you mentioned every republican administration after Eisenhower and left out every democratic administration. You're ignoring the fact that democrats controlled congress for most of the period that you're talking about, and that significant attacks on civil liberties occurred with a democrat in the white house.

    Face it, both of the major political parties in the US are responsible for what has been happening. Both of them will eventually lead us to the same place. I honestly don't know how you could have made the statement you did without realizing this...unless you are one of those people that believes that Barack Obama is going to magically change everything for the better?

  • by crossmr ( 957846 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:34PM (#22371464) Journal
    "I'm still proud of my country"

    I'm not trying to troll here, but why?
    America might have once been great, but what's really happened there in the last 10 years, 20 years to be proud of? Scandal after scandal, poor social policy after poor social policy, increasing ignorance and almost xenophobia, patent trolling, enron, cops abusing people (AND nothing being done about), civil liberties washed away, copyright madness, etc, etc. I'm sure there have been the odd medical and scientific advance but I'm not allowed to have a free though about those without paying a royalty to some major company.

    When I was a teenager I used to think it would be cool to move to the states. Wages were so much higher, a better climate, etc.
    Now I have to fly there occasionally for work, and I dread it.

  • by ScrewMaster ( 602015 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:55PM (#22371672)
    I'm not trying to troll here, but why?

    Yes, you are. And there are still a lot of good things happening in this country, and for the most part I enjoy my life here. Then again, you don't live here and apparently most of what you know you get through the media or from Slashdot, so I suppose your attitude should be expected.
  • by hal9000(jr) ( 316943 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @02:56PM (#22371682)
    Irag II: Saddam had WMD (used it on Kurdish villagers in the 80s). Was required to get rid of it (90s), but failed to do so under UN supervision or to properly document it so that the UN could verify after the fact.

    Sonny, as an American, I can tell you have been drinking the Kool-aid far too long. Did you not watch the events leading upto and after the Iraq invasion? Yah know, where they couldn't find evidence of WMD's? A little fact like that just might piss some people off.

    Here is my little paranoid fantasy of why the US invaded Iraq. First, there is oil. The US has enough, but the powers that be want more. Second, there is this little quote by President George W. Bush []: "After all, this is the guy that tried to kill my dad at one time." Thus a personal vendetta that has killed thousands of American solders. Killed many, many more Iraqi civilians. Left a wake of casualties.

    Wake the fuck up.
  • Re:Shouldda Waited (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @03:01PM (#22371738) Homepage

    Don't get ahead of yourself. It was a federal magistrate in Vermont that gave that ruling, not the Supreme Court. We have no idea what the SCOTUS would do in such a situation... especially if it involves child pornography. They've been known to make exceptions to the Constitution when it comes to child pornography.
    That case is rather wierd, but in the general case you don't know what's on the computer you request access to. It's one thing to say child pornography isn't protected under the first amendment, it's quite another to give police blanket permission to demand all your passwords because it might, without any form of suspicion, contain child pornography.
  • by AHumbleOpinion ( 546848 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @03:10PM (#22371810) Homepage
    Irag II: Saddam had WMD (used it on Kurdish villagers in the 80s). Like a true American, you not only spelled the name of the country wrong (and the Freudian subtlety of the misspelling is particularly telling)

    Why attribute malice when overzealous software and a lack of proofreading will do? The original typo is "raq", which gets autocorrected to "rag", and the missing "I" is manually added without noting the preceding change.

    There is no Freudian slip since Saddam is not Iraq. The territory of Iraq and its people represent one of the births of agriculture, one of the births of civilization, one of the births of a written legal system based upon fairness, etc. I've viewed the nation and people of Iraq as more of Saddam's victims for decades, not his willing accomplices.

    I think if this conversation tells us anything about bias it is clearly telling us about yours, not mine.

    you forgot to mention a) why the US did nothing about that back in the 80s aside from affirming our "friendship" to Saddam and giving him another $1 billion in military aid right after and b) where Saddam had gotten the technology for that gas and its means of distribution.

    Even if true they are off topic. The fact remains that the US invasion was not a random event. The potential threat existed. Even if one accepts your position one could argue that the US more morally obliged to clean up the mess it created. In any case, not random.
  • We're lazy (Score:3, Insightful)

    by michaelmalak ( 91262 ) <> on Sunday February 10, 2008 @03:40PM (#22372088) Homepage
    We in the U.S. are fed a steady diet of public education, American Idol, and high fructose corn syrup. I.e. we're lazy. Before the Internet, we couldn't have been bothered to even go to the library, not that there would be any information there after the government (which owns the library) sanitized it. The Internet has woken up 10% of the U.S. population. Blogging is hard work and takes a lot of research. A whole new generation is educating themselves, where public schools had tried to dumb them down. Young people, who get there news from Internet, told their parents about Ron Paul, who did not.

    The Internet is in the process of saving the U.S. from its century of tyranny. The only question is whether it will be soon enough. East Germans knew better, but by the time they did, it was too late.

    Ron Paul was a skirmish in the war for freedom. The next battle is paper ballots, and at least here in Colorado, at least for 2008, we'll have paper due to overwhelming public outcry for it. The next battle after that is to actually elect a defender of liberty using said paper ballots, by which time a larger percentage of the population should be getting its news from the Internet.

  • by Fantastic Lad ( 198284 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @03:43PM (#22372120)
    Is this the United States or some banana republic?

    Being that the term 'banana republic' came into existence as a direct result of U.S. foreign policy and illegal wars, it should come as no surprise that one would find the parent specimens of such abusive practices in the land which created them.

    The U.S. used its foreign policy and semi-secret operations to crush budding democratic nations in order to reward American business, in this case, sugar and banana plantation owners, who basically wanted to use slave labor rather than pay fair wages to the locals. It still happens today. Venezuela is currently undergoing the same treatment where the U.S. government, big business and the CIA are doing everything in their power to cast Chavez as a villain and install a pro-American business military government. They're probably going to get away with it, too. The media in Venezuela are all pro-evil, big media owners being what they are. Chavez wanted the peasantry to own their own land and have a say in politics, have access to decent schooling and medical care and generally get out from under the boot heel of slavery. The horror! It's bad for business when your peasants are educated and strong. --Research the story, but stay away from the big American news outlets to do it; they're all a bunch of whores.

    If U.S. business and government are going to use such practices abroad, then you'd better believe that they're going to try to get away with as much of the same thing at home as they possibly can.

    So yes, the U.S. IS some banana republic. It's the mother ship of banana republics. Don't let all the shiny formed plastic fool you.


  • by billcopc ( 196330 ) <> on Sunday February 10, 2008 @03:58PM (#22372244) Homepage
    The biggest problem with security is that it is put in the hands of the lowest blue-collared individuals. Very few people aspire to become security guards. They end up in that job because it pays well and only requires a high-school diploma or GED. These buffoons have been taught that explosives can be made out of common household items, but they lack that special magic we call INTELLECT to understand that the reverse is equally true.

    Yeah, so right this minute I probably have traces of crystal meth on my hands. I haven't used, sold nor produced it, but I withdrew some cash from the ATM a few minutes ago. Cletus Lawman is convinced I'm a drug-smuggling terrorist.

    The problem with the world is that stupid wins over smart every time.
  • by TurinPT ( 1226568 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @04:00PM (#22372252)
    Islamic terrorists care very much about the US Constitution, because it's against Islam, just like the laws and principles of European countries are against Islam. Looks like someone's been watching too much american TV.
    The majority of islamic terrorist organizations actually fight to 'end the foreign influence in Muslim countries and the creation of a new Islamic caliphate'. Seriously, don't bother then and they won't bother you.
  • It only doesn't make sense if you presume their actual goals are aligned with their stated goals. If the goals are to induce relatively powerful people to feel helpless and threatened, it makes a lot more sense.
  • by a_nonamiss ( 743253 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @04:13PM (#22372364)
    You know, I don't agree with this guy one bit, but how is this modded troll? Just because people don't agree with his opinion? I troll mod should be reserved for "FIRST POST!!!", people from the GNAA or someone who says "All you liberals suck! GO USA!!!" His opinion, while disagreeable to some, is still valid.
  • by sholden ( 12227 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @04:15PM (#22372388) Homepage
    So "you haven't proved you don't" is good enough to invade a sovereign country. I guess that meshes well with "you can't prove you're not" being good enough to send you off to an offshore jail for some "interrogation".

  • by nexuspal ( 720736 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @04:16PM (#22372398)
    How long would it take, say if you were driving at 50mph, to get through the airport fence, with a van full of people with ak's, all timed to the departure time of say 3 747's, and board the planes, fully armed, with explosives? That's the real threat imo...
  • by ScrewMaster ( 602015 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @04:30PM (#22372512)
    That old guy obviously hates America.

    He probably does hate what it's become. That veteran probably knows better than anyone born after the War just how much we've thrown away.
  • by hamster_nz ( 656572 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @04:31PM (#22372516)
    Um, You missed his point. All of these groups 'could' be treated in the same was as you currently view Muslims - there are justifications in history! Were you in London while the IRA were bombing? I went to school with somebody who who lost a leg in an IRA bombing. Which is far closer to me personally then any body killed by a Muslim terror attack. In some cases reputations are earned. In this case popular media is portraying all followers of the Muslim faith as being fundamentalists - and some people less capable in critical thinking are believing it. Surely it is everybody with the name "Bin Laden" that should be screened!
  • simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tom ( 822 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @06:19PM (#22373524) Homepage Journal
    Don't travel to the US.

    There is no way I'm going to hand over my passwords to a just-above-minimum-wage dofus. Not if it means I can't take that flight. Not going to happen. Since by whatever perverse application of your totaliarian laws they can force me to, the only solution is to avoid the US the same way anyone with a sane mind avoids any other place where the insane rule.
  • by Raideen ( 975130 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @06:49PM (#22373790)

    This isn't about "outsiders." The Japanese and Germans have developed a reputation for covert operations on behalf of their homelands while living in the United States (which is strictly their own fault). As a result, anyone who looks like they might be Asian (it's too hard to tell the difference) or German is subjected to extra scrutiny. It's just common sense.
    I don't even know what this means.
    Seriously? That was a reference to the internment of the Japanese and Germans (even American citizens of Japanese and German decent) in America during World World II.

    The fact is that Jewish, Irish, German and Japanese people do not have the kind of reputations you're fantasizing about.
    The examples are real ones taken from history. They're not theoretical. Oh, and I've had Muslim friends. They never even tried to kill me for being an infidel! They must've failed terrorism training camp or something. Your brand of hate mongering is eerily similar to the kinds of justifications that has been used throughout history in order to unjustly attack or oppress "undesirable" groups of people.
  • by bug ( 8519 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @07:01PM (#22373940)
    Um... why should I, as an at-will [] employee, shoulder the burden of this for my employer? If I were ever arrested at an airport for refusal to comply with Customs orders, my employer would have the briefest feelings of sympathy for my plight... before firing me. That would leave me arrested, possibly charged with a federal crime, and unemployed to boot.

    I like my job, and I like the company that I work for. However, I'm not about to go to jail for them or anyone else.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 10, 2008 @08:19PM (#22374530)
    You need some explanation: Irony is not a metal!
    You think it's a bad reason to accuse jews or irish and harass them, send them to torture camps as soon as you think they might be a threat to your comfort? On the other hand when it concerns muslims it's normal... So where exactly is that limit between normal and not? Is it when your skin is not the right color? Your beard too long? Or is it the religion?

    What triggered this answer is this:

    and in France the violence has turned to urban warfare

    But I'll come back to that later. First:
    It's people like you who are responsible for the rise of Sadam, Hitler, Bush and other despots. You justification is: there are "good" reasons to persecution. Hitler shared your point of view.
    Instead of going after the people who failed to act (or juts let things happen that 9/11 to get the convenient war propaganda), you let your rights burn, you justify your own oppression, you take the lies about terrorism in Iraq as granted (the only terrorists active in Iraq were backed by the US and were acting to replace Sadam by a more cooperative dictator, just like in the very well documented coup against Mohammed Mossadegh which led to the current Iranian situation). You support the american terrorism. You can't recognise a failed leader when you see one, Bush speaks in YOUR name, he acts in YOUR name.

    they have developed a reputation for it.

    Americans have developed a reputation: a short summary of things done in YOUR name: You call others nations terrorists if they don't support in your holly war, you invade a country under false pretexts, plan the chaos (disbanding the government and army []) which will justify the presence of your army in the country. You steal all the oil you can while people argue about the effectiveness of your strategy. You kill people at random (just for fun [], a video []) and you create laws to avoid being prosecuted... You kill more people cause it's fun [] It's bad you broke rules but no laws, because killing people is not a crime (the killers will walk free and proud in your streets). You have a strong tendency of acting like criminals at every level of the state and you make your own law how and where it pleases you; As Bush said "He tried to kill my dad". And so you bombed a nation with radioactive waste (twice [], []). Also, giving false evidence about mass destruction weapons to bring other nations into your jihad is another strategy in you sick failed-state. And this reputation of being christian fanatics who create your own private (out of the law) saint armies [] counts for something... Your leaders are a reflection of yourself.

    I think there are valid reasons for millions of people around the world to seek vengeance against the US. So stop complaining, having a 1984 like system at the airports and having your laptop stolen by greedy TSA officials is a low price to pay for your own security when you are too lazy to act responsibly. You don't deserve freedom if you can't fight for it... It's up to you as a citizen of a country to watch where your freedom goes... You are just like russians, happy to give away your rights by fear of loosing some of this daily comfort. At the airport you are treated like cattle, because you are... Your country and its officials (from top to bottom TSA agents) consider you as such... it gives you

  • by mlwmohawk ( 801821 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @08:26PM (#22374574)
    Remember, even paranoids have enemies. Ridiculing an idea is much easier than disputing it.
  • by Blakey Rat ( 99501 ) on Sunday February 10, 2008 @09:33PM (#22374984)
    The majority of islamic terrorist organizations actually fight to 'end the foreign influence in Muslim countries and the creation of a new Islamic caliphate'.

    Which means executing women for being raped, for example. The creation of an Islamic caliphate is not a good thing in any way, shape or form. I don't believe in your moral relativism.

    Seriously, don't bother then and they won't bother you.

    Do you honestly believe that?
  • by Raideen ( 975130 ) on Monday February 11, 2008 @01:12AM (#22376218)

    What are those examples supposed to prove? Because Japanese and German people were once treated with suspicion, it must somehow mean that treating Muslims with suspicion is wrong? Or what? I don't get it. This is now, and what Muslims are doing or not doing has nothing to do with what some other people were doing or not doing many decades ago. There's no connection.
    Japan and Germany were attacking other nations, thus the suspicion against people of Japanese and Germany descent. At least some Muslim nations are funding terrorists, thus the suspicion of Muslims. I don't know how you can dismiss the similarities. If you are in agreement with the interment during WWII, then at least have the balls to say so. Then at least you would have a consistent point of view. If you don't see a problem with what happened then, it's obvious that you wouldn't see a problem now.

    I bet the number of Muslim friends you have is considerably lower than the number of Muslims who would gladly decapitate you.
    How is that a rational argument? My friends vs. the number of extremists among 1.5 billion Muslims. Yeah, that's a fair comparison. You're more likely to killed by a non-Muslim in New York. Maybe you're statistically more likely to get killed by someone of a particular race or ethnicity. Let's fear them too! What point were you trying to make?

    Are you really going to argue that Muslims pose no threat and that Islam is a Religion of Peace (tm) just because you have a couple of benign Muslim friends? Did it ever occur to you that maybe there's a world outside your small sphere of existence?
    Am I going to argue that all Muslims pose no threat? No, of course not. I'm a New Yorker. I'm also not going to say that all Muslim nations pose no threat to other nations, because that's obviously not true. On the other hand, you argue that Islam is a Religion of Hate(tm). How small is your world that you think that all Muslims are evil and violent or actually believe that a majority of them are? If that were true, the U.S. would have been driven out of Afghanistan and Iraq a long time ago because the death toll would have been at least an order of magnitude higher than it is now.

    Muslims always get a free pass. No matter how much they threaten, terrorize, kill and rampage, nobody says a word. If someone does say something, he's guilty of "hate mongering" or "racism." Muslims are never guilty of anything. Do you have a rational reason for ignoring what they do and attacking anyone who talks about it?
    I'm not ignoring anything. You just make broad, sweeping rationalizations about 1.5 billion people, hence the hate mongering. Would it appease you to call it prejudice instead?
  • by evought ( 709897 ) <evought@pobo x . c om> on Monday February 11, 2008 @02:29AM (#22376618) Homepage Journal

    It was the perfect political opportunity. There was no down side. If WMD is found claim credit. If WMD is not found claim you were deceived.

    The Bush Administration deceived first, then tried to rationalize. Not the other way around. For deceit to work, it has to be hidden. That the deceit is coming out now is just a natural progression of history.
    I think part of the point is that Congress went along with the plan without doing any real fact checking, asking any tough questions, or really even discussing anything. They just made pretty speeches and signed on the dotted line. And this is exactly in line with what the GP is saying: folks in Congress saw no downside; they could just blame Bush either way. Whether the blame is *deserved* is irrelevant to *that* question; Congress had the opportunity to avoid the situation and are now jumping up and down about how it wasn't "their fault" (except for the ones still saying "Gee, what a nice day this is!".) It is their *job* to be suspicious and not write blank checks. If Bush fooled them, they failed that job.
  • by radimvice ( 762083 ) on Monday February 11, 2008 @03:19AM (#22376812) Homepage
    These buffoons have been taught that explosives can be made out of common household items, but they lack that special magic we call INTELLECT to understand that the reverse is equally true.

    Holy crap, common household items can made out of explosives? Please, tell me more!
  • by Zemran ( 3101 ) on Monday February 11, 2008 @03:51AM (#22376924) Homepage Journal
    20 years ago, I was traveling up through Sweden to Finland. I thought that it would be fun to do the return trip down the Russian side as there are a lot of places in the east that I wanted to visit. The paperwork was a nightmare and I decided against it. I have been wandering around the US and had a great time just going where I wanted. That is the sort of thing that I wanted to do in Russia, if I liked St Petersburg, stay a couple of weeks, if I didn't, move on...

    A couple of years ago I dropped into Moscow and traveled up north. I am now allowed to travel around in a way that I am no longer allowed to travel around the US. Some irony there.

    Land of the free? Who are you trying to fool?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 11, 2008 @05:02AM (#22377184)

    The Nazi card is really getting tiresome.

    You must be quite german to react this badly...

    There's nothing heretical about what they're doing, and they don't do it for political reasons. They follow their religion correctly, in the footsteps of Mohammed. The methods have changed to reflect the diminished power of Muslim nations, but the nature of Jihad warfare has not changed during its ~1400 years of existence.

    I am not informed well enough to discuss this matter, could you link to some sources of yours?.

    There are probably some sects that don't believe in Jihad, but they are insignificant.

    I don't know so many muslims but i probably know more of them than you must have ever seen in your life to act in such an xenophobic way... but please enlighten me, link to information about jihad adhering currents and non adherents.

    Today's Saudi Arabia is more backwards than Europe or Asia a thousand years ago.

    I totally agree on that... Also note that this regime is backed and supported by the defenders of freedom, the USA! (That was a very tempting one, sorry)

    What the hell do Americans have to do with this? Are you completely unable to deal with Islam and Muslims without immediately trying to drag someone or something else down to their level, or without trying to ignore issues by pointing the finger elsewhere?

    I do recognize there is a problem with extremists... all over the world and whatever their religion and color and shaving habits. The fact that Radical Islam gets all the attention doesn't mean you should put all the muslims in the same basket. [It's impossible anyway, they won't fit (joke! don't flame!)]. All germans are not nazis... are they? So stop generalizing, meet people, talk to them.

    I don't remember claiming that it was a racist attack. I don't remember bringing up race, either.

    Funny how it's always immigrants from Islamic countries that do this kind of stuff.

    Sorry I took it for granted... just the way you tend to point your fingers at the justice in harassing muslims who have this reputation... But I was wrong in believing you accused this attack on muslims.

    I'm sure it's just a bizarre coincidence

    Certainly not... But I would like to see some kind of proof showing the ratio of muslims / non muslims in those riots (which should be possible by looking at the ration among the arrested people). I would also like to point out the following: Riots are the result of strong problems in a country, youth and students [] are most of the time initiators of these. The French nation has a very strong story when it comes to striking and rioting one or two more riots politically used and amplified by french left wing press and media against the right wing candidate Sarkozy is hardly an argument (in your anti leftist mouth)... I believe you have no clue about the situation in France, but if you do, please, tell me more.

    You obviously don't want to deal with this issue. What are you afraid of?

    Afraid of? Don't know why? I was just saying you were right there are many idiots on this planet. And yes criminality and violence are real issues. Organized crime and pointless criminal acts are more than numerous all over the world. Telling it's the Jews or the muslims or the americans is just a lack of judgement. Give me links to facts or news.

    I'm pretty sure all US forces are educated on ROE, LOAC and Geneva Conventions.

    Please provide a link... And I will be happy to read that prior to the invasion all soldiers were properly trained and informed of their duties and obligations. Also explain me how comes a whole prison mutated into a gulag without any official noticing (I'm speaking of Abu Ghraib)

    What lack of culture?

    I will read links (contrarily to you) and a

  • by PodBayDoor ( 831711 ) on Monday February 11, 2008 @09:16AM (#22378252) Homepage
    Amazing. You claim he can't know about America, but you claim to know the ways he knows about it. You are the +5 generalisation about America.
  • by intheshelter ( 906917 ) on Monday February 11, 2008 @10:33AM (#22378874)
    Heck I'm an American and your response is pure poppycock. Let's examine a few fallacies. . .

    "Why didn't we take out Saddam and his regime then? Because the president at the time recognized his Constitutional limits under his edict to act."

    -His Constitutional limits prevented him? Duh! If he was following our constitution he wouldn't have been there in the first place because Congress had not declared war. Our leaders don't give one whit about the Constitution unless it somehow personally threatens them with jail time. Our Constitution has been a paper tiger for quite a while now.

    "I'll play along and postulate that you don't like our military protecting the agribusiness that feeds so much of the world."

    - So it's OK for us to invade someone because we feed part of the world? That's about the most idiotic statement I've ever heard.

    "George W has a clear history of not tolerating anyone who hurts his dad."

    - Sooooo we invaded a country because Bush Jr. wants avenge his daddy. The same daddy who (contrary to your quote above) was NOT hurt by Saddam. Again, the stupidity of this justification can not be measured with today's technology.

    "Our invasion there was many things, but it wasn't random, neither was it without reason. And I don't mean reason as in have a reason or have an excuse, I mean reason as in a reasoning process was involved. It may have been GIGO, it may have been immoral, but it was perfectly predictable. Random and without reason is never predictable."

    - You silly philosophy lesson is a nice attempt to minimize what everyone is saying, but unfortunately it sounds like a complete diversion because you fail to address what everyone is saying. Our invasion was completely without reason. Don't try and pull some amateur psych explanation to justify it. The only reasoning process involved in this invasion was how to dupe the public into thinking this was justified. You obviously fell for it.

    "Are you even aware that the popular belief was that America didn't oust Saddam because we lost the war there in the '90s?"

    - Oh, well, then by all means lets invade them and kill Saddam so we can save face and say we won! How does the popular Arab belief that we lost have anything to do with the fact that Iraq posed no threat to us? Let them believe what they want, I don't care.

    One thing is becoming quite clear. George Bush has killed far more people with his policies than Osama bin laden, and Bush's policies are no more valid than bin Laden's.
  • by MrKaos ( 858439 ) on Monday February 11, 2008 @11:02AM (#22379180) Journal

    unless you are one of those people that believes that Barack Obama is going to magically change everything for the better
    It's hard to believe that the race for president is anything more than who will be the CEO of America Inc. America has enviable legal structures to protect the citizenry, but even Benjamin Franklin (basically) said that the constitution would not save America from despotism forever.

    Participation in democracy should be the DUTY of every person who lives in it, not floating around a feeble 20% of the population, how can democracy even function with so few people participating. The saddest thing is, so few people even care. Freedom is a fragile thing and has to be maintained.

  • by Stanistani ( 808333 ) on Monday February 11, 2008 @04:38PM (#22383066) Homepage Journal
    No, just looking at your statements was sufficient.

    Hey, guys, don't mod this guy down and make him in his own eyes a martyr. Respond to him. Show how far off he is in not acknowledging recent historical examples.

    Especially get on him for the 'their own fault' statement.

    Not every member of a group is an extremist, and if we antagonize those members who work against extremism, we do ourselves a severe disservice as well.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 12, 2008 @01:58AM (#22388706)

    I think the burden of proof is on you. The notion that soldiers receive no training in the laws of warfare strikes me as very absurd.

    You tell me you know/are pretty sure/whatever then prove it. Don't affirm thing you imagined. Your imagination and belief is no proof. You're too lazy and dumb (or have you never been in the army?) buthere you go []. I'll spare you the effort of clicking:

    "We had no training whatsoever," he said.
    "I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations. And it just wasn't happening," he said.
    He said he never saw a copy of the Geneva Conventions - which govern the treatment of prisoners - until after he was charged.

    I will not link to previously linked articles (as you obviously did not even click on the links) which show executions of prisoners and wounded... or is that part of the Geneva Conventions?

    I used to be an average multiculturalist drone like you

    Am I? I lived in different countries, cultures and places. I adapt quite well. And I understand how rules are applied and enforced in the places I live. I talk to people come to know and understand them and their story... listen to their personal stories. As an immigrant I learn to play by the local rules.

    Then I changed my world view entirely.

    Have you been assaulted by someone looking a bit tanned? This would explain a shift of stance and a perception of continual persecution (you display this erratic behavior in most of your posts).

    Muslims have waged Jihad for nearly one and a half millennia all over the world, though most people are unaware of it because they're too busy apologizing for the Crusades. Islam Watch, a site run by former Muslims, has a collection of articles on the history of Jihad.

    I'm sorry but linking to a website blocked by corporate firewalls for being racist / Islamophobic is not the greatest source. I have been reading that. I can't say it's journalism... Linking Ottoman invasions to justify the war in Iraq is basically sick. But you might find comfort in this kind of "stories".

    I believe the people, army or mercenaries engaging in a terrorist act are by extension terrorists... Ok, maybe I'm over-stretching here? Soldiers executing orders... hum moral dilemma.

    The word terrorist is really overused today.

    My god you formidably fail to read (or understand) the main piece of information and bounce on the less relevant part. The word terrorism is well defined... Oxford English Dictionary: "government by intimidation". But is was quite extended []. Despite that the definition of the invasion of Iraq falls into most definitions you can find.

    That doesn't make any coherent sense. Being serious means you're trolling? Yeah, whatever.

    Yes... I see you are quite limited.

    How dare those fascist pigs even exist!

    Yay! You did it! Sarcasm... +1 point for the extra effort!

    Riots are the result of strong problems in a country

    Yeah, problems like police officers chasing people and sitting in cars.

    I should stop assuming everyone has the same level of knowledge... My quote was a reference to the deep problem of French immigration policy, to the political tensions and other factors which led french youth from lower classes to the streets as well as set french students on strike (political leftist sabotage and agitation). Please don't use the French riots as an example as you are too far from the topic.

    I know there's also a civil war in Iraq.

    Just tell me how many bombings and Islamic crimes have been committed under Sadams rule, where were those terrorist when Sadam let his nationalist regime strip his country of t

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 17, 2008 @04:50AM (#22451622)

    read the rules and stick to them (link to sources!).

    Having an opinion that differs from Slashdot's leftist dogma is not against any rule that I'm aware of.

    I might have been unclear. The rules mention clearly linking to sources as being an essential part of the /. "dogma".

    This is the old "since the US military is not perfect, they're all savage murderers" argument.

    What does that have to do with you not reading linked sources?

    Like I already told you, it's an absurd claim.

    Prove it.

    soldiers deployed to Iraq are equipped with water pistols.

    This is an absurd claim, it appears that M16A2 Qualification and Bayonet [] are part of the basic training... But I found no mention of any courses about Human rights nor Geneva convention anywhere in any of the US army courses. Once again, I might be wrong... but as I did read and hear such testimonies (no such human rights training being given) I believe I am right, and you are uninformed or lying.

    Hah hah. A site run by former Muslims is Islamophobic and racist. That's a good one.

    A typical reaction from people who can't fit in a new or foreign environment is to start denigrating, criticizing and even harming their former community. I have witnessed that behavior too often... It's really sad. I am not telling the people from jihadwatch and islamwatch are in that position... but they are neither journalists neither historians. They write their partisan ideas, they introduce unrelated historical facts and try to make them fit in their views...
    The posts on their sites are not news... these are views.

    By the way, why exactly shouldn't I use French riots as an example of... French riots?

    Because you try to use these riots to prove islam is the "root cause of the fall of humanity" (I exaggerated this claim for a humorous purpose). You have no knowledge of the situation and (Left wing) media frenzy (against N. Sarkozy) which led to those riots... Neither have you any idea of the proportion of muslims, catholics, atheists, nihilists or any other trouble makers in these riots. Therefore your claims are unproven and void. Seeing your reticence to link to any news or any solid source it's doubtful you have anything valid to say about this subject.

    Similiar riots [...] occur in many others places in Europe

    Could you give links to 3 or 4 examples?

    Immigrants from Islamic societies are the common link between all of them.

    Do you have any statistics or news to support our claim? Or (to quote you) "is there no source for your claims because it was obviously made up as another example?"

    I'm sorry if I don't buy the standard explanation that The Man is oppressing them. When everything, absolutely everything, is always The Man's fault, the explanation starts to become as credible as the Zionist Conspiracy.

    I don't either... but you are quick at generalizing. You forget the social and humanitarian context in Africa and the middle East. Islam is used as a pretext and a tool. It's the only knowledge and morale framework most people have in countries like Nigeria []. They have no clue about civil laws nor any national or international education. Nigeria is a country where a coup is the best way to get to power, where the average person saw 3 civil wars and lost members of his familly in conflicts, When law is enforced by militias with no federal oversight (and no knowledge of federal laws either) you can't expect much discernment from the average citizen. Most Nigerian don't see their identity represented by the Nation but by the tribe they come from. In a similar fashion most of Middle East has no significant national identity, n

"For a male and female to live continuously together is... biologically speaking, an extremely unnatural condition." -- Robert Briffault