TiVO Patent Upheld, Dish May Have to Disable DVR 235
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "The US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit upheld a ruling by a lower court that Dish Network DVRs infringe upon TiVO's patent on a 'multimedia time warping system'. According to some analysts, this could not only make Dish liable for damages, it could force them to shut down their DVR service, harming their customers. The patent in question has already been reexamined once and the ruling on appeal (PDF) was unanimous."
MythTV (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:MythTV (Score:4, Interesting)
Substantiate your claim (Score:3, Interesting)
Not so fast (Score:5, Informative)
What does the update do? (Score:3)
(emphasis added)
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I've said it once, and I'll say it again: Don't buy products that depend on a connection to their home company to function or can be remotely controlled.
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Expect more court dates.
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What I don't understand is this: how could the courts possibly uphold a patent that has so much prior art?
The VCR is a Multimedia time warping machine... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:The VCR is a Multimedia time warping machine... (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, DVR permits you to watch the program while taping it, in a way that allows you to "pause" it and continue later. This ability is included in TiVO's patent. There's no way to do this with a VCR, so it doesn't count as previous art for it.
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Sounds a lot like "instant replay," the ability to pause, rewind and fast forward a live broadcast. They've been doing in sports broadcasts since the 60s. Using fancy video tape decks -"VCRs" if you will.
I wonder too - as others have - what the implications are for hav
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No difference. What does technology have to do with the market in which it exists other than catering to it.
Regardless. It's a bullshit patent. I've been doing that crap with VCR's years before TiVo albeit it was neither this pretty nor flexible. Digital format simply offers new advantages in terms of application, speed, and cost but to patent recording 2 programs at once or recording one and watching another? What kind o
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Its a bullshit patent. Ive been doing that crap with VCRs years before TiVo
No, you havent. There has never been a VCR that allows you to rewind and watch from the beginning at the same time recording continues. Tapes cant, and dont, work that way. Instant replay in sports involved (I dont know the specifics) multiple machines and some coordinated efforts by the broadcast team.
All a DVR does is access stored files from different processes. My computer does this all the time
TiVos patents include a very
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In a way, this is similar to Amazon's one-click patent. Combine
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might have had to tell you there's a hard disk inside the box, but once you know that, the rest is obvious
No, it's not - and that's why they got a patent. The patent isn't for "recording to a hard disk", it's a patent on a very specific method of writing data to the hard disk.
One of the founders of TiVo has a chapter in Founders At Work [amazon.com]. He discusses the problems of getting TiVo functionality into low-end commodity hardware in the late '90s. If you read that, you'll get a better understandi
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Has anyone even bothered to read the patent? (Score:5, Informative)
1. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia data, comprising the steps of: accepting television (TV) broadcast signals, wherein said TV signals are based on a multitude of standards, including, but not limited to, National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) broadcast, PAL broadcast, satellite transmission, DSS, DBS, or ATSC; tuning said TV signals to a specific program; providing at least one Input Section, wherein said Input Section converts said specific program to an Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG) formatted stream for internal transfer and manipulation; providing a Media Switch, wherein said Media Switch parses said MPEG stream, said MPEG stream is separated into its video and audio components; storing said video and audio components on a storage device; providing at least one Output Section, wherein said Output Section extracts said video and audio components from said storage device; wherein said Output Section assembles said video and audio components into an MPEG stream; wherein said Output Section sends said MPEG stream to a decoder; wherein said decoder converts said MPEG stream into TV output signals; wherein said decoder delivers said TV output signals to a TV receiver; and accepting control commands from a user, wherein said control commands are sent through the system and affect the flow of said MPEG stream.
What this means in laymans terms is that the patent is for the process of taking a video, converting it to a MPEG stream and then separating the audio and video portions which are then stored separately. To play back the video, the video and audio files are combined back into a MPEG stream and then decoded. In addition commands can be used to manipulate playback of the the MPEG stream. The above process allowed MPEG encoding/decoding to occur using very low end hardware. Those who say that TiVo can sue the manufacturers of every hardware and software DVR on the market, either do not understand the above patent or do not understand how other DVRs work. The patent only affects DVRs that store the audio and video separately. Dish was a good target because they basically reverse engineered a prototype that TiVo showed them back in the days to convince them to license the TiVo patent. DirectTV chose to license the technology, which is why they weren't sued.
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Transcoding that stream may have made sense even a couple years ago, but hundred dollar (retail) 500 GB USB hard drives seem to obviate that need. That disk could hold nearly 30 hours of cable-TV programming or 60 hour
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The "watching one program" part of DVRs is not just passing through a signal that the tv then displayed. It is the timewarping method of being able to record a program to the device and watch another previously recorded program from that same device at the same time.
VCR single tasking != DVR multitasking
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Re:No... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Could you record one program and watch another previously recorded program at the same time? Could you pause a live signal and keep recording while you answered the phone or went to the bathroom?
That's the main difference between a DVR and a VCR. Multitasking recording and playback at the same time, not just passing through the signal for realtime viewing while recording something else.
Re:No... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:No... (Score:4, Interesting)
Back in the early 90s Pioneer had a (professional) magneto-optical video disk recorder that had two heads.
You could use the two heads in multiple ways.
The standard way would be to use one head to erase and the other to record - this meant you could record on a disk that already had something on rather than have to wipe it first, or use both heads in playback which meant you could do realtime edits.
But it could be used in other ways - for example if you had a pre-erased disk you could use one head to record and the other to playback.
I built a system for Pioneer that, using two of these machines, basically allowed an up to one hour delay in any live video feed. IIRC it basically worked like this (I've got the code somewhere on various backups but I can't be bothered to go and find it now). Initially both disks were erased. When you started up it started recording on the first disk. When that disk was full it started recording on the second disk. When you wanted to start playback the second head on the first disk starting playing back. Once that reached the end of the disk you switched to the second disk to continue playback. Once the first disk was full and playback had to have started before it was full (hence why you were limited to IIRC 48000 frames delay) the record head returned to the start and started erasing the disk. Once the second disk was full the first disk was (almost completely) erased and so recording could start on the first disk again. (I lost something like 100 frames of space each time I recycled a disk - to allow time for the head to return to the start. Actually was only about 15 frames but I allowed plenty of leeway)
I also built a small bit of hardware that had a video sync separator connected to one of the RS232 status lines so the computer that was controlling the two disks and the video switcher could count exactly how many frames had been recorded and I didn't have to worry about clockdrift.
That was roughly 100K (GBP) of kit, but it was "off the shelf". Other than the video sync separator (which wasn't strictly necessary unless you planned to run this thing for a day or more where clock drift might start to matter) the only "novelty" in this over and above what was documented in the manual for the video disk recorder was using two of them to mean you could run the output delay for more than half an hour of input. It would also have been completely trivial to stop and start the playback provided the total delay didn't exceed the capacity of the disks available. Indeed, doing that with just one disk was even suggested in the marketing - the idea being that a sports match could be recorded continuously while highlights could be played back.
Tim.
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No, actually, that's the fundamental mode of operation of digital capture cards. They more or less require you to bounce the stream through the OS, from where you can watch, pause it, play with it. They usually have only one tuner per ADC chip, and usually no passthrough.
In fact, making a device with multiple capturecards that _couldn't_ record and play at the same time would be more work.
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Usually that would be a hardware MPEG2 encoder and decoder. That used to be how it was done in the 90's, any TV card basically had to have it; you couldn't do realtime mpeg compression on a general purpose CPU until they came close to the gigahertz mark.
But whatever method you used to handle the video processing, you still had to pass it through the OS making the obvious method of playback to record and pl
ST:DVR (Score:5, Funny)
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What choice do they have? (Score:2, Interesting)
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I also tell telemarketers firmly to take me off their lists and any lists they have me associated with. I was having some problems with some company calling with a computerized recording that you have to wait and press a number to get to a real person. When I told them to make sure I'm off any lists they might have, they claimed I called them.
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the jury (Score:4, Insightful)
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Q: What's better than 1,000 Lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
A: 1,000 Patent-Troll Lawyers at the bottom of the ocean.
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I doubt jury misconduct; jury idiocy is more likely.
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Then again, yeah,,i suspect idiocy as well.
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Re:the jury (Score:5, Insightful)
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Say what you will about their patents, but the company is not a troll in the normal sense of the word because a) they actually invented this technology and b) didn't wait till it was i
MPEG Streams Only? (Score:5, Interesting)
Correct, unless the other format is MPEG compliant (Score:3, Interesting)
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Patents don't have the same idea of a derived work as copyright, but they do allow fuzzy matching in infringement cases. The idea of a patent is to prevent trade secrets by protecting inventors who disclose their inventions. It is in
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In other countries, particularly in the Far East, changing the color of a device is sufficient to side-step a patent. Here in the US, patents aren't quite so specific, so you're right: a company making a device that implements all of the claims but uses a different codec would probably wind up in court.
However, if the particular codec isn't a crucial aspect of the invention, why does the claim specifically say MPEG? Most of the claims are fairly vaguely worded so that they'd cover alternative implementati
TiVO's just mad cause their patent is defunct.... (Score:5, Informative)
Dish's patent is for digital to digital (different digital formats) conversion / time warping.
Guess which broadcast standard is going away.... =)
Re:TiVO's just mad cause their patent is defunct.. (Score:2)
You could drop the tuner support for the different heads down to just the parts that segregat
GPL3 workaround (Score:5, Interesting)
I can see several situations develop. First, Tivo uses GPLed code (GPLv3) with their time shifting software and is forced to not apply the patent to derived code. Second and probably more likely, they don't use GPLed code (or GPLv3 code) for the recording and time shifting and use the patent to stop hackers from messing around and getting the Tivo functions working with non Tivo firmware or signed kernels.
Or 3, they don't use GPLv3 code all together and nothing has changed. But it is definitely interesting to think about.
GPLv2 violation already (Score:4, Insightful)
This means that while they can nail Dish network for patent violation, they themselves have committed a copyright violation and opened themselves up to lawsuits from thousands of developers.
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You're using GPL-ed code in some piece of tech or software that you are distributing. Your software is now also GPL-ed, but let's say it's violating a patent held by Company X. Company X sues you, but you settle out of court and get a patent license. However, that patent license isn't transferable to the people who receive your software, and now the people who receive your software cannot redis
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Well, that would be true if the software that the patent covers is covered by the GPLv2 also. The GPLv3 provides some spidering effects with a little more clarity in where a program not licensed under the GPLv3 cou
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Since they are enforcing their own patents on the use of said software they are in violation of the GPL
How do you figure that? By your own words, you have said that it is their own patent - that means they get to choose the licence terms of their patented technology. If they choose licence terms that are compatible with t
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That said, the clause only applies to patents directly applying to the GPL'd code. Clause 2c specifically states that the license does not apply to other code aggregated with the GPL'd code. They may run their DVR code on Linux, but that only means that they can not enforce patents they might h
Wrong (Score:4, Informative)
Naive question... (Score:2)
No, seriously -- TiVo got plenty of money for being first to market, and for licensing their actual product (hardware and software) to others.
What does the consumer gain at this point by having competition killed? Would TiVo really not have bothered to invent the DVR without protection from this competition?
Re:Naive question... (Score:5, Insightful)
They NEVER "got plenty of money" - I don't believe they have had more than a couple profitable quarters in 10 years (and those were probably due to lawsuits!)
Their only hope of survival at this point is to protect their patents (that probably still have a good 7-8 years left). Patents that seem to be violated by most of the other DVRs. They are just going after Dish because DirecTV still has Tivo DVRs in service, they made a deal with Comcast (which uses Motorola), and Time Warner uses Scientific Atlanta which is a stretch to call it a DVR ("piece of crap" is a better term).
The idea is not that no one else can make DVRs - it's that Tivo gets more money from Echostar. They only have to stop selling DVRs if they are not willing to come to an agreement. Though Echostar is the kind of company that is happy to screw over it's customers and blame someone else just to be cheap.
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Tivo is pretty much screwed at this point because most people are content with the crappy DVRs their cable/satellite providers now give them.
They are just going after Dish because DirecTV still has Tivo DVRs in service, they made a deal with Comcast (which uses Motorola), and Time Warner uses Scientific Atlanta which is a stretch to call it a DVR ("piece of crap" is a better term).
I have Dish DVR. I thought about switching to DirectTV to see what the competition offered. According to the DirectTV sales people, the DVR offered by DirectTV lacks a feature that I find important. I have a dual tuner dish and two TVs in my house. The DVR from Dish can record both signals and send them to both TVs at the same time.This means I can watch shows recorded on the DVR from either TV, record two shows at the same time, and still have independent channel switching. The DVR offered by DirectTV ca
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I had the concept behind TiVO years ago when digital video first started becoming available. It's an obvious idea that anyone who's worked with UNIX pipes could have thought of. TiVO is just more for video.
What stopped people from doing it before TiVO is the same thing that made TiVO ridiculously expensive at first: technology. Hard drives simply weren't big enough to make recording TV to disk a reasonable home applica
Re:Naive question... (Score:4, Informative)
Not really. When I looked this up a while back, as far as I could tell TiVo had several relatively narrow patents on DVR technology that they invented. (The most prominent of these had to do with tricks to get enough performance out of 1990s era hard drive to simultaneously record and view video. That's no longer an issue.) Probably most of their patents can be worked around.
A few years ago, however, TiVo bought the rights from a 3rd party to an older and incredibly broad patent that covers absolutely any DVR implementation, or indeed any simultaneous reading and writing of any digital video stream. (From the claims it looked like the commands mencoder /dev/video -o foo.mpg &; mplayer foo.mpg would inringe.) That kind of makes them a patent troll, since that dubious "invention" (which in a sane world would have been rejected as obvious by the patent office) predates TiVo altogether. The good news is that this particular patent is expiring really soon now.
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Remember, good capitalists are not free market proponents. They are much happier with monopoly positions.
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Re:Naive question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes that is the same tired response from someone who has never done the hard work, invested every penny they had and borrowed money from their family to bring a product to market, just to see it jumped on by 18 knock off shops and never see a penny for all their hard work. Yes there are things broken in both Patent and Copyright law, I certainly agree with that. But to hear someone like you blather on about the evils of patent and copyright just sickens me.
I know someone who put himself through school to get a phd in optical design and spent every waking moment writing a better piece of optical design software. His software did 95% of what the major players in the optical design market did for 10% of the price. He published version 1.0 and before he knew it there were pirate copies showing up all over the place. Version 1.01 came along with a DONGOL to protect his Intellectual Property. The software is well into version 10, years later and it still comes with a DONGOL.
Here is your clue... Beer is not free, Freedom is not free, Food is not free, School is not free, Electricity is not free... Get it, NOTHING is free. Take down all the structures we have, no technology, no internal combustion engines, no silicon wafers, no steel mills, nothing, and life is not free. You have to work hard every damn day to survive. The people who invent deserve the fruits of their labor, the people who create great works of art deserver the fruits of their labor, the people who create great software deserve the fruits of their labor.
So stop whining and complaining and go invent, go create, go design, go and WORK because you to deserve the fruits of your labor.
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I know someone who put himself through school to get a phd in optical design and spent every waking moment writing a better piece of optical design software. His software did 95% of what the major players in the optical design market did for 10% of the price. He published version 1.0 and before he knew it there were pirate copies showing up all over the place. Version 1.01 came along with a DONGOL to protect his Intellectual Property. The software is well into version 10, years later and it still comes with a DONGOL.
So, he set out to make money by undercutting the "major players", and then got upset when he got undercut by someone else in turn? Forgive me if I don't see the big deal.
(BTW, you misspelled "dongle".)
Here is your clue... Beer is not free, Freedom is not free, Food is not free, School is not free, Electricity is not free... Get it, NOTHING is free. Take down all the structures we have, no technology, no internal combustion engines, no silicon wafers, no steel mills, nothing, and life is not free. You have to work hard every damn day to survive.
Not if you have patents and copyrights, you don't! You can work hard for a little bit up front, then sit back and keep squeezing money out of the work you've already done.
Seriously, what you're saying is pretty much what I've said in every copyright thread, but somehow your conclusion is 180 degrees off. If
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This does mean we need public institutions to throw funding at us, because you just don't get private companies buyi
Who's Whining? (Score:3, Insightful)
So stop whining and complaining and go invent, go create, go design, go and WORK because you to deserve the fruits of your labor.
No thanks. I'll work because I love doing it and because I want to make the world a better place.
The people who invent deserve the fruits of their labor, the people who create great works of art deserver the fruits of their labor, the people who create great software deserve the fruits of their labor.
Perhaps so, but if that's your goal, we know that the current patent and copyright laws will not accomplish it. The current system is just a crap shoot, albeit heavily weighted towards those who (a) have a lot of money, (b) want to make a lot of money, and (c) are willing to spend a considerable amount of time gaming the system rather than being creative.
heh (Score:2)
not.
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The Purpose of Patents (Score:4, Insightful)
I've been very critical of patents in the past, and in general I think they are overused by trolls and big corps to squash competition on obvious ideas. But most people admit that somewhere underneath all that crap is the ideal of a little guy being able to spend a bunch of time and money to invent and bring something to market without having someone else immediately copy them and usurp the benefits of all their hard work. There's a valid, society benefitting reason for patents, it's just that they're almost never used in that way these days any more.
I think Tivo is an example of what patents should protect. My understanding is that Tivo was a pretty clever idea, and they spent a lot of time and money creating something very cool and unique. I never owned one myself, but friends did, and it seemed to me that if anything was patentable it would be Tivo. I was later a bit weirded out when all these competing DVRs appeared. In fact I took it to mean that the patent system was broken in both directions: it encouraged patent trolling over obvious ideas and it failed to protect inventors.
Now I hear that they may be getting patent protection after all, and for the first time since Dyson protected himself against the vacuum manufacturers that refused to license his work, I'm seeing patents do what they were meant to do: encourage actual invention.
If you think Tivo was not worthy of a patent, then I don't know what to tell you. It's not just a VCR, and if it were people would be including VCRs in cable boxes. They came up with something cool that nobody else was doing, and if I understand the market at the time, something nobody else wanted to do. And before they could turn a profit they were slammed by knockoffs from several sides.
Anyways: I just want to call out that while I generally gag at the patent cases I see, this is not one of them. I think Tivo brought something unique to market and they should have a (truly) limited time to exclusively benefit from it.
Cheers.
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The problem with Tivo's patent is that it isn't particularly novel, and it's very broad. Yes, the idea of a DVR wa
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Actually I wouldn't say they're in bed with the cable companies either. The only way new Tivos work with cable is the cable card, which the FCC mandated. Plenty of cable cos still have DVRs running their generic crapware.
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TIVO used to work WITH Direct, they even had an HD box. Then some schmuck at Direct decided that they wanted to buy TIVO and TIVO told them to piss of
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Any PC Video capture card (Score:3, Informative)
I know that the AIW pro that is sitting here next to me did everything described by the patent. And it predates the Tivo patent. I don't see how Dish successfully lost this case.
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Moreover, you seem to be under the mistaken impression, as are many on Slashdot, that any kind of "prior art" invalidates a patent, no matter how precursory or tangential. While a video capture card could certainly be combined with special software to perform "dvr"-like actions prior to the Tivo patent, the Tivo folks were the ones to define their process, productize it, and make it available. If there's any legitimate application of patents, it's a case
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Bullshit. It's a simple and obvious application of a random-access storage device (hard drive) to a VCR, everything else flows naturally out of that one combination of existing technologies. Trivial and completely undeserving of a patent. Tivo's invention is like taking a lock and applying it to a door and claiming that you deserve a patent on locking doors.
Just scrap patents completely.
TWW
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To suggest "scrapping patents completely" shows a pretty significant lack of understanding of their place in the modern economy, and akin to "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
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Dish and Tivo (Score:2)
That being said, bravo Tivo. This is clearly in Tivo's court, as they did create the technology. They should be paid for what they own.
Now, here's hoping that Tivo and Dish reach an agreement without interrupting my service or raising my bill... how likely is that? It's not very likely...
Here's an idea - Dish should give Tivo free press: "Dish PVR, based on Tivo Technology!" and drop the "It's Bette
Time Warping (Score:2)
But of course if the court thinks it's new then it's new? Right?
This isn't "the patent system working". (Score:2, Insightful)
If Dish had bought that patent instead, and Tivo was on the losing side, nobody would be defending Dish. And it could have happened that way: that's the way patent trolls work, after all. A stopped clock tells the right time twic
Cool - a patent on "Time Warping" (Score:2)
Dancing green girls [google.com], here I come!
Cripes, man. (Score:2)
At Christmas time, I had to replace my TV and DVD player. Since HD DVD units were so cheap, I bought one. Less than a week later Warner Brothers announced they were dropping support (by May, but they seem kinda firm about that; then again, they were firm about staying neutral two weeks prior to that...not that that means anything.)
About the time I took an interest in DVD-A discs and started buying (hey, they can play in DVD playe
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Yeah ! Stick it to the corporations and their greed-fueled idiocy trying to control what you can and can't do !
Oops, spoke too soon.
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After DishNetwork's crippling of their 501/510 DVR receivers by forcing out botched firmwares, I grew tired of their excuses month after month. So I switched to DirecTV.
Better product, better service, better support. Echostar is starting to fade...quickly.
Echostar is actually still growing. in 2003 they ended at a little under 10 million subscribers. Directv ended at 13 million. Byt 2006 Echostar had a little under 14 million. While Directv has a little over 15. The numbers are evening.
They say the Hd content will put Directv over but , it's looking like all it's doing is slimming the cable co's down a bit. Most folks are coming from there to the dbs providers.
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In other news, I have no experience in the medical industry, but antibiotics seem much ado about nothing to me.
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