Dutch ODF Plan Could Sideline Microsoft 168
Yeti7226 sends word of a discussion coming up Wednesday in the parliament of The Netherlands that could result in mandated use of Open Document Format at government agencies there. If the plan is enacted, public-sector organizations, as well as the government, would have to transition to using ODF by 2010. Microsoft Netherlands has lobbied hard against the provision. Backers say it doesn't exclude Microsoft, because ODF can be produced out of MS Office via the use of plugins. A funder of the OpenDoc Society invited Microsoft to join that organization, saying: "This plan is not about Microsoft, it's about ensuring the perpetual availability of data without any obstacles."
Open Data is also mentioned (Score:5, Informative)
Well no wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well no wonder (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Well no wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
(well, perhaps it won't be too hard, after all it happens so often
Reliance on plug ins for office ODF compatibility would be crazy, either they implement it on the 'save as' menu, and allow it to be chosen as default, or they get sidelined by users as being too much work when compared to a simple and quick save operation.
Behavioral Psych 101 (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Behavioral Psych 101 (Score:4, Interesting)
This is though, it's not.
ODF shouldn't be a cause for excitement. It's a file format. It stores everything any sane person might want to store in an editable document format. The only differentiator between ODF and any other common document formats is that ODF is easy to parse and free for anyone to implement.
There are already good editors that use ODF too - Open Office for the open source crowd, and Lotus Symphony for those who want to play in the proprietary pool. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but either will serve for 99% of document editing duties.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe, at least at first. But in many companies and organizations, management will eventually get tired of the problems of dealing with 10-year-old
Re:Well no wonder (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
#1 on the M$ list: vendor lock-in (Score:3, Insightful)
That's why MS is shitting their pants.
Look at the crap they pulled trying to get their "standard" approved by ISO.
Re: (Score:2)
My personal way to get beautiful typesetting from office is to export to rtf and convert to LaTeX. Not that I have to do that often, fortunately.
Re: (Score:2)
Is there any particulerly useful procedure you have for doing this? I have a 250 page document in MSword that I would really like to have in latex, but I'm working blind as it were.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Well no wonder (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well yes, but you're assuming that just because MS want OOXML approved as a standard, it means they can't keep modifying it as needed.
Re: (Score:2)
The #1 most important feature MS is interested in is vendor lock-in. They can't implement that in ODF. Therefore, it's no good to them.
Re:Well no wonder (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
--
Side question: FR-4 is glass-fibre+epoxy PCB material. What is evil about it? Or does FR-4 stand for something else in your
Very much about Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
... which actually makes it very much about Microsoft, since they have purposefully done so much to ensure precisely the opposite. Planned obsolescence and crufty undocumented file formats are perfectly in Microsoft's favor as a means of forcing MS Office users to pay the upgrade tax every few years, regardless of whether the new Office versions include any compelling new functionality, what with older versions suddenly no longer able to read the "same" .doc file format produced by the newer versions. With ODF, we know what we're getting -- and that's what scares the pants of Microsoft.
Cheers,
Re:Very much about Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.macintouch.com/o98security.html [macintouch.com]
Then again, I suppose this sort of thing isn't guaranteed against with ODF, since anyone can write a terrible parser for any file format. Microsoft is just really good at it, that's all.
Re: (Score:2)
MSFT makes a counter offer (Score:5, Funny)
MSFT countered saying that it has nothing against its users ensuring perpetual availability of their data residing in their machines and it would gladly join the organization if Microsoft's right to perpetual profits could be guaranteed.
Comparable Costs? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
"Free!" (TM) (c) [Pat. Pend.] (Score:5, Funny)
See, that's the beauty of " Free! " (TM) (c) [Pat. Pend.] [All rights withheld by Microsoft, 2007] -- you can " Freely! " make anything equal anything else! What convenience, what ease of use, what utility! A few examples: Winter is the new summer, Stay the course, Up is down, Copyright is good for the consumer! Rinsema is simply worried that not enough people know about this Fantastic! New! Opportunity!, and is trying to make sure everyone knows that " Free! " is actually equal to $130 or whatever MS Office sells for.
It's all perfectly logical, really.
No, it's true... Microsoft did a proof: (Score:5, Funny)
* Step 1: Let a = b.
* Step 2: Then a^2 = ab ,
* Step 3: a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab ,
* Step 4: 2a^2 = a^2 + ab ,
* Step 5: 2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 + ab - 2ab ,
* Step 6: and 2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 - ab .
* Step 7: This can be written as 2(a^2 - ab) = 1(a^2 - ab) ,
* Step 8: and canceling the (a^2 - ab) from both sides gives 1=2.
* Step 9: We then subtract 1 from each side which gives us 0=1
* Step 8: then multiplying by x where x is the price of the Microsoft suite you are investing in... you will note that x=0 and thus Microsoft is completely free!
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:No, it's true... Microsoft did a proof: (Score:5, Funny)
This is Microsoft, there's no error!
Don't Worry (Score:2)
Don't worry, It'll be fixed in the next Service Pack, which is going to be "The Most Secure Microsoft Product Ever" (tm) (c) [Patent Pending] !
While leaving, don't forget to pick up a brochure explaining how to convince your boss to pay for the upgrade.
Re: (Score:2)
And, by the way, on the 2 Debian DVDs there is more than one error. So, nobody can blame MS on that, Linux is worse.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If the MS office software or open office cost $NaN, then that'd raise an exception because the values aren't comparable. But they arent! So MS is telling the truth, as always!
Re: (Score:2)
Especially when what you really want to charge is $1,000,000 per copy.
Microsoft has a dream . . .
Support contract (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Bluff? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, one of the benefits of all that FUD that Microsoft has churned out or paid for is that they can use it as reference material to the clueless PHB(s) that purchase (directl
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Bluff? (Score:5, Informative)
It's important to consider the structure of Dutch government in this case. The Netherlands have a system of many parties. There are some big ones, two of which usually make up the government, with a third smaller one. But the Dutch congress (which can veto bills, and bring up points of discussion) comprises all parties that got some minimum number of votes. I suppose most parliamentary democracies work this way, but the difference with countries like America and the UK is that in the Netherlands there is actually great diversity of parties in congress, many of which are small enough to really care about the issues. And a common divisor between all the parties that aren't in government is that none of them will care much about how great a deal the government is going to get from Microsoft (especially when there are free alternatives).
Don't get me wrong, we don't have a magnificent government at the moment, but the parliament usually works pretty well. The one party that would be most sympathetic to Microsoft here is the liberal VVD, and one of their prominent politicians is the Eurocommisioner that managed to give Microsoft a kicking in the recent antitrust suit. There is some hope for this one.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Don't forget that Frits Bolkestein http://eupat.ffii.org/players/bolkestein/index.en.html [ffii.org], is also member of the VVD.
FWIW, the guy is a big-time defensor of software patents, and calls open source advocates of misinformers (in the context of software patents).
Liberal as in conservative (Score:5, Insightful)
Mrs Kroes, the commissioner who made MS bleed, is all the more effective as an antitrust fighter because she knows from past experience how board rooms operate. Apparently, it is possible to be a capitalist and believe that corporations should behave properly.
I agree that our system, imperfect though it may be, seems to at least resemble something like a democracy.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Bluff? (Score:5, Insightful)
If because of this someone can get a good deal on licenses than that's less cost for the taxpayer so that also a 'good thing'.
Arjen
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On a completely unrelated note
Nice try (Score:3, Insightful)
First, this isn't about bashing Microsoft. Second, don't suggest Microsoft isn't opposing this to keep their profit as high as possible.
Re: (Score:2)
With
If MS Office is the best solution then nothing changes, but if a dutch company can offer anything better (better pricing, support, features, localization, etc.) customers suddenly have a choice they didn't have before. Notice that this move would allow office to coexist with other apps, unlike other countries that mandate open source solutions.
Just becau
Re: (Score:2)
Care to tell us where exactly Arjen was bashing Microsoft ?
New document format overlords (Score:1)
Misleading Title on the Article (Score:5, Insightful)
Governments *MUST* do this. Public documents are public domain, not Microsoft's (or any other company's) hostage.
We need to continue to have articles posted (even though they get old sometimes) here that push these issues and lay them out for people because they are so important.
Re:Misleading Title on the Article (Score:5, Insightful)
So the fundamental issue is that most people aren't even aware that there is a problem to deal with.
Re:Misleading Title on the Article (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Some of the formatting, like details of kerning and line spacing, is tied to the printer, so it can change even on the same computer. But, really, formatting problems between versions can be largely avoided if you can avoid things like smart quotes and other annoying automatic formatting options.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Like image placement.
Re: (Score:2)
True. I've had a bit of fun with this when I've received Word docs in email. What I sometimes do is mention that here in the US, we now have a law that makes "decrypting" docs without explicit permission from the encrypter is a federal crime, for which you can get a $500,000 fine and 5 years in a federal prison. Since Microsoft hasn't given
Re:Misleading Title on the Article (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Are you implying both are not the same thing?
Don't you believe it! (Score:5, Insightful)
I say this jokingly, but also quite seriously. Jokingly because technically, it isn't about Microsoft... it could easily have been about Word Perfect if they were still the dominator in document formats. Truly, it is about perpetual access to data through the used of non-proprietary and fully documented formats. "ODF" isn't here to stay... it might last another 10, maybe 20 years at most before something far superior comes along. But ODF is fully documented and could be translated into whatever the next great format standard will be.
But seriously, it *IS* about Microsoft because Microsoft has lost the trust of their users and customers. They have done this with amazingly consistent and persistent erosion. With every new release, with every security problem, with every denial, with every DRM addition, with every copyright protection service, with every Genuine Advantage(r), with every BSA audit, with every criminal conviction, with every attempt to evade or forestall punishment, with every shameless act for which they have become quite notorious in the IT community... the ignorant public has started to notice what upsets their nerds ever so much. And now they are starting to re-think the way they store their data because at any moment, they want to be able to change their operating platform. They trusted Microsoft for at least the past 10 years with their operating systems, applications and data. Microsoft had their, our and even my personal trust for quite some time. The trust is gone or disappearing and now people are taking action.
And is it really the best way for Microsoft to handle this problem? I mean to lobby and complain? Why not attempt to save their business by changing their course and direction!? What is so bad about change?! Is actual competition too much for Microsoft to handle? Can't they just make a "better product" instead of playing all of these government games?
Perhaps the Microsoft apologists would care to suggest a possible reason why they can just serve the interests of their customers rather than fighting to save their business model? The customer wants ODF. Why shouldn't Microsoft provide that to them?
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Don't you believe it! (Score:5, Interesting)
It is the only way they know how.
"I mean to lobby and complain? Why not attempt to save their business by changing their course and direction!? "
They can no more change this course and direction than we can change our own DNA (excluding retroviruses, etc). Besides, they'd have to want to change. And they don't. They pride themselves in this method and culture and approach.
"What is so bad about change?!
It hurts. It is unfamiliar. The outcome is not certain. Like Dell now trying to do retail. Don't think that was the first thing on their list. They are having to play in a game in which they are newcomers.
"Is actual competition too much for Microsoft to handle? "
Yes. They don't know how to compete the normal way. With an actual salable product, on the merits.
"Can't they just make a "better product" instead of playing all of these government games?"
This IS their product. It is what they do, what they are best at. What they do better than anyone else. Software is just the arena. They are not so much a software company as they are a "protect windows and office at all freaking costs" company. That is the bottom line to everything they do.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
lol. (Score:2)
Good (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I really hate getting Word documents from people (like all the MS documentation on their website) that when opened in Word get re-formatted automatically, show spelling mistakes with
Re: (Score:2)
Please elaborate. I personally don't remember any major problem ever with PDF files. I sure must have had minor issues (which I have forgotten since), but "PDF hell", come on?
Let's hope they stand up better than Massachusetts (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Let's hope they stand up better than Massachuse (Score:4, Interesting)
Being Dutch I can tell you that it will be highly unlikely that something like what happened in Mass. takes place here in NL. The whole structure of our political system is based on cooperation, on finding the right compromise that works best for the largest group of people, without ignoring minorities.
We've got legalised euthanasia: if someone really wants to die because he faces very strong suffering with no way out, our society gives him the right to let him die in a humane way. Even the christian parties in our government do not try to roll this back.
If you want to smoke pot, hey, no problemo.
Gay marriage: why not? Abortion? yes: under the right circumstances.
Prostitution is also legal; allows for better regulation, less health issues and last but not least: taxation :-). You actually put money in the treasure chest here if you visit a prostitute.
The crux of this all: our political system is more focussed on getting our society to work better. There will be prostitution whatever you do, so its better to legalise and regulate. There were cases of euthanasia and abortion before our laws permitted it, so again better to regulate. Pot, idem. Over here we do not only implement the stuff lobbyists would like; we have no legalised system of bribes here, ehhm, in the US they are called 'campaign contributions' I believe. Also we do not have a winner-takes-all 2 political party system; anyone can start a political party and be elected in our parliament. There is even one seat for the 'Animal Rights Party' right now.
So in this case common sence prevails again: there is simply no way anyone can seriously state that it is better to have all of our documents unreadable in 10, 20, 50 whatever years time. There is also no way that someone can seriously state that you must use products from 1 (even foreign) company in order to communicate with each other. Fortunately our politicians see this also, so the chanches of this getting a Mass. handling are quite small, since there is little incentive to cater to the wishes of some convicted foreign monopolist.
Dutch tradition (Score:5, Informative)
Intitiatives like this one are likely to succeed here because they will be widely seen to make good sense.
There is nothing to prevent Microsoft from being part of the solution. Or it can be part of the precipitate.
Re: (Score:2)
And even if it passes, there will surely be some cop-out clause like "proprietary alternatives are allowed if better suited". And everything will remain as it was.
Microsoft whining in the press (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Microsoft whining in the press (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
> ODF support to Office, they could turn around and say, "Buy your Office 2008 licenses!
> It's got ODF support, you NEED ODF support!".
And kill the revenue stream forver. That is why you post on slashdot and Balmer buys legislatures with his ill gotten gains. The whole point of all Microsoft products isn't to just be sold once per customer, but to be sold over and over, preferrrably as a regularized revenue
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
'Je kunt open source zonder open standaarden hebben. Het lijkt dat ze onlosmakelijk met elkaar verbonden zijn, maar dat is niet zo.'
You can have 'open source' without 'open standards'. It may seem like they are inextricably linked, but that is not the case.
If I only had a Microsoft memo on what "open standards" means, I could understand this statement.
More detail posted earlier; pending... (Score:2)
if not, I shall see if I can re-write it.
Yeah Right (Score:2)
You know how I know there isn't a God? Because this Rinsema fellow isn't a blackened and charred remnant of a human, struck down for blatant lying.
OOXML looks less likely than ever to become a standard, particularly after the embarassments over Microsoft's mutilation of an international standards body. And even if it were on track, why should it be treated as an open
MS wants "open standards in general" (Score:2)
Strange reactions by MS (Score:2)
But as long as OOXML is not approved an open standard, it's not officially an open standard.
I read TFA, and I must say I'm surprised at MSs reaction. They seem to me to be genuinely terrified about this. Instead of making a plugin for ODF they go crying about how many jobs this would cost and what not. Amazing. Why do they do that?
Re: (Score:2)
But as long as OOXML is not approved an open standard, it's not officially an open standard.
I read TFA, and I must say I'm surprised at MSs reaction. They seem to me to be genuinely terrified about this. Instead of making a plugin for ODF they go crying about how many jobs this would cost and what not. Amazing. Why do they do that?
Perhaps because Office and to a lesser extent Windows, are the roots of the Microsoft empire. They pay for the Zune and the Xbox, and all the other pies that Microsoft have a finger in. If they support ODF, they can't control who gets to use it. Then the Microsoft Office lock in is gone. Once that happens, people can use alternative office suites, and it is one giant step towards Windows becoming irrelevant.
I'll Hold My Cheers Till It's Implemented (Score:3, Interesting)
There is also an approved motion, filed in 2002, that "requests the government to ensure that, by 2006, all software used in the public sector complies with open standards" (full (dutch) text of the motion [wikisource.org]).
This is what we want. This is what we _should_ have. It's outrageous for a government to force us to deal with prorprietary formats.
Furthermore, the motion expresses concern about the cost of the government using proprietary software that uses proprietary formats, and requests that the government "stimulate the adoption and development of open-source software in the public sector".
Regardless, the (previous) government inked a $$$ deal with Microsoft, apparently without even considering alternatives. I do some work for government agencies, and Windows is everywhere. Having said that, Linux is, too. I don't know about document formats they use for interacting with citizens; they always give me paper forms. But in my communications with them, it's Outlook and MS Word and Excel.
It's now 2007, one year past the target of the motion, and there's a long way to go still.
good attack (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why is M$ complaining ? (Score:2)
This only shows the lie that what M$ is trying to do is to prevent the competition from competeing on a level playing field on what M$ considers to be territory that it owns.
Microsoft criticizes Open Source policies .. (Score:2)
Microsoft hekelt belied open standaarden [feedburner.com]
The headline above doesn't help... (Score:2)
Instead, this action is directed at their arguably non-open OOXML format.
It's important to make this distinction, as many pro-Microsoft advocates take the position that a vote for ODF is a direct attempt to remove MS's product lines from the marketplace, and that simply isn't
Have you ever even used GIMP? (Score:2)
And as for OpenOffice...
Well woord processing software has looked that way for many years now, back as far as the mid 90s when I started. What do you want? How different can it be and still be a WYSIWYG document editor?
Re: (Score:2)
I think you meant Calc and Excel.
I'd love to take your challenge but I've been using Open Office so long, I've forgot how to install Excel, Lemme think, oh yeah, install from CD, then find the CD every time I use a new feature. Nah, I think I'll take your word for it. Besides Excel on my debian box is just wrong. I feel dirty enough having to run XP in a Vm for testing.
Re:Of course... (Score:4, Informative)
So what's preventing you from freeing yourself from proprietary software? Certainly not the hardware.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Disclaimer: Prices in AUD, this is an Australian store
Here's one [minidisc.com.au] and another one here [minidisc.com.au]
Cowon and Iriver have supported Ogg Vorbis for a while now. There are other models from Cowon and Iriver (different capacity, larger/smaller screen, different form factors, Drive/flash based) if these are not to your liking. I have the Iriver X20 and get better sound quality than out of latest generation ipod (I will admit that the trade off is battery lif
Re: (Score:2)
Where's the Oldboy clawhammer when it's really needed?