British Village Requests Removal From GPS Maps 539
longacre writes "The tiny village of Barrow Gurney, England, has asked GPS map publisher Tele Atlas to remove them from the company's maps. The reason: truck drivers using GPS navigation devices are being directed to drive through the town despite the roads being too narrow for sidewalks, which has led to numerous accidents. At the root of the problem lies the fact that the navigation maps used by trucks are the same as those used by passenger cars, and they don't contain data on road width or no-truck zones. Tele Atlas says they will release truck-appropriate databases at some point, but until then they advise local governments to make use of a technology dating back to the Romans: road signs."
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Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Funny)
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How the heck you you expect the police to fill their tase quota without picking off a trucker or two? Sheesh people these days.
Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Funny)
Don't be such a pansy.
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Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Interesting)
To me, it sounds like a rare instance of authorities caring more about safety than money. Unfortunately, your attitude seems to be more common - to the point that some communities (*cough*Union City, CA [thenewspaper.com]*cough) have been caught deliberately and illegally causing unsafe situations in order to increase revenue from traffic violations.
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Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just put up a sign saying "Toll Road for Trucks: XX $" and watch how truckers do a quick reverse and disappear forever.
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Such a sign would be especially effective at discouraging British truck drivers who don't routinely keep American currency on hand.
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I would say about half of the lights the class examined had a "no win zone" where it was impossible to either make it through the intersection (w/o speeding) or brake in time if the light turned yellow. This was in 1994.
I'm not sure if it's greed on the part of governments or just simple incompetence. P
I live next door... (Score:5, Informative)
Just to clarify things a little...
I've lived most of my life in the village next door to Barrow Gurney. It's barely a village, approximately 400 people... As for law enforcement, it's the local Women's Institute, frowning upon any anti-social behaviour and gossiping people to death.
I used to visit the abbattoir there regularly for fresh meat (braaaiinnns....) but since it shut down, there's no longer and point to visit. Should it disappear off the map, I'm not sure anyone else would mind (apparently including those who live there).
In regard to the actual situation in hand, I can confirm that it's a great shortcut for getting round the area "off-piste". The road section in the main part of Barrow Gurney is very, very wide and would fit several lorries in no problem. The only difficulty is that the rest of the village and all access to it is via narrow lanes (for you Americans read: tarmac'd footpaths) and can get a little hairy even in a car.
Upcoming R&D (Score:3, Interesting)
A project has been looked at and is undergoing further discussion (into whether it's DfT's, SatNav companies' or Haulage companies' responsibility) on a separate SatNav system specifically for haulage. I.e. a system that only uses roads with sufficient capacity for lo
Better than the original solution (Score:5, Funny)
I found a copy of the original correspondence between the village and the TeleAtlas:
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Interesting dilema.
One solution could be to petition the government to upgrade the highway through town or build a ring road.
Another, considerably less friendly option, is to install one helluva hairpin turn in the main road. Easy enough for a passenger vehicle to navigate at playground speed, but impossible for a transport truck.
Maybe the ideal solution is to install a toll booth system. If a vehicle exceeds a certain weight (or physical dimension), they'll need to pay at the initial toll booth. Then, install a series of toll booths along the route with a police radar of some fashion. If the vehicle exceeds the posted speed limit, they need to pay another toll in order to proceed to the next segment.
In short order, one of two things will happen. The traffic will find an alternate route around the town, or the town will have earned enough money to build their own ring road.
The reason you don't understand the problem is that you have no history, and you have too much space.
My house was old when the United States Constitution was first drafted. Am I going to tear it down to make way for trucks? No. My village also doesn't have physical space for a ring road, without some major engineering - a bloody great bridge over the sea on one side, a tunnel or a massive cutting through the hills on the other. The solution isn't demolishing half the villages of Europe to make way for t
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You've obviously never been to an English village before. You cannot 'upgrade the highway' in a village which has grade 2 listed buildings which are 9 feet apart. These buildings were built 200-300 years before the invention of the car. They are important historical buildings and are hardly going to be demolished just to put in a bigger road.
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If only that was the case. (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that this never happens. Whenever there is a budget surplus, it is never, ever, ever, translated to reduced taxes. Instead, the money is immediately started to get channeled through cover
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Speed cameras are a poor way of getting funding. A speed camera violation means a minimum of 3 points on the license, along with the funds required to prosecute the driver. The £60 fine doesn't even begin to cover that.. and after 12 points you're banned anyway, so you can't catch the same person more than 4 times - which takes money out of the economy (not spending petrol, insurance, probably now unemployed so they're costing benefits and not paying taxes, etc.).
I don't know about speeding camera's, but when you get caught by a red light camera in the US, they don't take points off your license, they just fine you. Also some jurisdictions will let you plea down to an offense with less points and more money, which is usually cheap to "prosecute, because you make the deal with the prosecutor, and the judge rubber stamps it. In Nassau County, New York when you first report to court to fight a ticket, the cop won't be there and if you actually want a trial you get a
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Quite frankly, I don't see how you can take points away from someone caught with a camera. You can't prove who was driving the car.
This has been controversial in the UK. Essentially, the registered keeper is obliged to declare who was driving at the time of the offence. This has been challenged as being a breach of the European equivalent of the fifth amendment, but has been upheld. I'm not sure what happens if the person the registered keeper names denies being the driver, but I suspect it's for the registered keeper to prove -- I've certainly heard of drivers being held liable for parking fines when their vehicle was supposed to be
Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Not often enough, though. There's a bridge near here that's got an impressive collection of scrapes and dents from truckers taking the tops off their vehicles.
Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Insightful)
At the entry roads to the village put up barriers that will block vehicles above a certain height. Most trucks are taller than normal vehicles that would fit.
Or set up a chicane designed to block vehicles which won't make it through the village.
Then put up a big traffic sign with red circle and a red slash across it with a symbol of a truck inside the circle - "No trucks". This is so you can justify the fines etc to drivers that ignore it and hit the barriers/chicane.
It's better to have the trucks stuck outside the village than inside the village - damage to stuff that's designed to take the damage, easier to clean up the mess, doesn't affect village as much, etc.
If you're lucky you might be able to place the barriers where it's much easier to tow the trucks away.
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There's already a solution [carpages.co.uk] to the fire engine problem.
Re:Road Signs? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Funny)
Here's what else can happen if you ignore those signs:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/djpaultimberman/maxHeadroom2.jpg [photobucket.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWdgAMYjYSs [youtube.com]
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Actually, that would be a safe assumption to make. The mutts who don't understand traffic are not on leashes anymore...
Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Hmm, not always... reminds me of a story. A truck driver underestimated the height of his trailer and promptly got stuck under a bridge. As a huge traffic jam swelled up behind, the truck driver and sheriff walked around the truck, rubbing their chins. The driver tried reversing, but got only tyre spin and fould smelling smoke. It was really stuck.
A motorist walked up and introduced himself as; "John Cooper, I helped design this bridge, maybe I can help".
Much walking around, chin rubbing and head scratching ensued, amidst the spiraling honking and abuse.
"I think we're going to have to bring in hydraulic lifts and raise the bridge slightly" Said John Cooper.
"Ungh, my boss ain't gonna like that" Said the truck driver.
Just then, a kid, riding by on his bike stopped, dismounted, took of his cap (this was before compulsory bicycle helmets), looked up and down and said...
"Why don't you let some air out of the tyres?"
Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Funny)
Cop pulls up and asks "Ya get yer truck stuck?"
Trucker: "Nosir, I was delivering this overpass and I ran outta gas!"
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"Why don't you let some air out of the tyres?"
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Some of the interstates (and a lot of cities, for that matter) here in the US aren't any better. I have far too many stories of almost being run off the road by long haul truckers that either aren't paying any attention to the road or are literally falling asleep at the wheel. It's crazy.
Then there was the night that I almost
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Sometimes the "No Trucks" signs get ignored because the delivery location only accessable from that route. But, yeah, I've seen plenty of drivers i
Shall I tell you a story (Score:4, Insightful)
There once was a time when most trucks had TWO people in the cabin, the driver and the "bijrijder" (no idea what the english word his, but his job is to lend a hand). There also used to be "relaxed" schedules. Upon arrival the trucker would be directed to the kantine and be given real coffee and perhaps something to eat while his truck was loaded/unloaded.
Nowadays even trucks with frequent stops and for innercity work do NOT have a "bijrijder", an extra set of eyes, a person who can go out of the cabin and direct traffic, a person who keeps the driver awake and alert. The schedules are intense while the number of delays has only increased. Unless the loading/unloading is at a wharehouse the trucker now often has to help with the loading/unloading.
This all makes for drivers who are tired, overworked and in constant fear of their jobs being taken by whatever is the next low wage country where none of the rules apply.
All in pursuit of the almighty buck. Notice how especially trucks from companies like DHL and other delivery firms that are always pushing the limits drive incredibly unsafely. I know how the routine goes, deliver 100 packages and next day they give you 110. Deliver them, and you get 120. Traffic jam? Just work overtime, that is increasinly hard to get overtime PAY for. The odd thing is that if you look at maintenance records this practive is very bad as the trucks are pushed way too hard and this actually costs a lot of money. Plus the invevitable accidents really start to affect business.
But hey, the package has to be delivered NOW and for as little money as possible.
That is the reason many truckers are a danger on the road.
It is the same reason tech support (who are on orders to handle as many calls as possible) often just says "reboot/reinstall" and tries to hangup.
Want good service/behaviour? Stop squeezing the margins, introduce strict laws and make sure people ain't forced to push the limits just to make a living, because they won't always get it right and a rude tech support guy is bad enough but an asleep driver of a truck is another thing altogether.
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Re:Road Signs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Tele Atlas have a complete monopoly on GPS maps, why the $£%@ cant they be FORCED to put height and weight limits on their maps by the government, on pain of having their rights to sell removed.
Its not only me, I know a load of drivers who have e-mailed tomtom and the like over the last 7 years, asking for the ability to enter the fact that I am in a vehicle 40ft long and 16 foot high and 8 foot six wide on the screen and not be sent down 7 foot wide roads with 9 foot six high bridges.
We dont do it for fun. You try reversing it when you come to the restriction.
As for the arseholes who suggest fines:
(a) For most drivers the company pays, and a lot of the rest are based in east Europe, and would not pay anyway.
(b) No driver would go there if he knew how to avoid the problem. Its not about saving money or time, its about lack of info on the alternatives - how do we know the other road is better if its not shown as better?
Teleatlas could fix the problem but won't. regulation is needed.
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For minor offenses for which they don't arrest on the spot, there's no powers of extradition so the summons is quite useless. They'll have to wait until they're caught again in the country, so in nearly all cases the paperwork is far too much so they jus
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Haha! Truckers don't look at Road Signs!
Indeed.
My commute home takes me over a bridge which is 1.8 metres wide [streetmap.co.uk]. Last night the traffic was queueing back half a mile from the bridge. I cycled past the queue to find a bunch of polis [police.uk] trying to deal with a truck and trailer that were too wide for the bridge and too big to turn in the road.
I thought as I watched them, 'ah, another victory for Tom Tom [tomtom.com]!'
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If you don't respect the trucks blind spots [roadway.com], then don't be surprised. Their blind spots are huge and because of this I give them wide berth or make sure I pass them quickly.
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Truckers don't look at Road Signs!
They do, but there's a complicated heuristic involved in how they respond to them.
I live on a street that as a clearly posted sign that says trucks may not drive down it after 10PM. However, it's the primary city street connecting central Cambridge, MA (USA) to downtown Somerville, MA. These two cities have a lot of trucking between them, and many truckers simply ignore the signs, knowing that police don't patrol the street.
I'd really like it if GPS maps were more up-to-date with this info so that they cou
Got enough links in your post? (Score:5, Funny)
Britooine (Score:2, Funny)
The already do resort to roads signs (Score:5, Informative)
I would expect idiots to ignore them, because the computer voice must be obeyed.
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The problem with signs (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:The problem with signs (Score:5, Interesting)
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Have you actually been on some of those countryside roads in the UK? It's hard enough fitting a small car on some of them, let alone a truck.
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Quick fix (Score:3, Insightful)
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When the truck hits it at 55 MPH and launches into your living room, unfortunately, you're the one who will effectively get the message.... :-)
This is a local village... (Score:5, Funny)
So... (Score:5, Funny)
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I spent a portion of my afternoon working with various ultrasound machines in a hospital. Trust me, the machines already have a way to kill us. An evil ultrasound machine could decide to add a tumor to an image where a tumor doesn't exist (resulting in unnecessary chemo, radiation and surgery) or, worse yet, delete a real tumor from an image (resulting in the patient not knowing they have cancer).
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Yeah, but the GPS-guided deathlorry can stalk you wherever you are.
Maybe if the ultrasound machines find a way to start luring unsuspecting humans into hospitals?
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so what if tele atlas change it? (Score:2, Insightful)
they will need to find another solution. such as a no trucks sign and a cop with a bad attitude to hand out the tickets.
Easier solution (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Station police officer 100 yards past sign.
3. Profit!
Re:Easier solution (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Easier solution (Score:5, Interesting)
a pint is a *pound* the world around is the mnemonic that a liquid pint is ounce equivalent to weight pounds. 16 fl oz = pint, 16 oz = pound, so you know that 2oz is a quarter cup, 4oz is a half cup, 8oz is a cup, 16oz is a pint, and 32 oz is a quart, and 64 oz is a half and 128 oz is a gallon. Some people just have a hard time remembering where a pint fits into the system.
I think powers of two are quite a natural system of measurement. Unfortunately, the French (and now the rest of the world) think a counting system based off the count of the digits on their hands and feet using Greek prefixes is somehow better.
How anthropocentric.
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And metric is far, far superior. Again, what's an ounce? Avoirdupois ounce? Troy ounce? Which fluid ounce, US or UK? An Imperial fluid ounce is 1/20th of an Imperial pint, whereas a US fluid ounce is 1/16th of a
Re:Pints (Score:5, Informative)
Except of course that it isn't. A more accurate, if less mnemonic mnemonic, would be "A pint is a pound in the US and exactly nowhere else."
Outside of the states, we know that "A pint of pure water weighs a pound and a quarter." Because, you know, a proper pint is 20 fl oz. Not sure why you Americans have such funny little pints.
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Adapt! (Score:5, Funny)
Barrow Gurney, instead of trying to do away with this new source of traffic, adapt! Enjoy the opportunity of having all these truck divers going through your locality to develop your economy and move on to the next level!
Everyone knows a truck driver craves fornication with women. Have whores! Put some money into turning an old farm in dereliction into a brothel and import truckloads of east European prostitutes! Then build your economy around this, build hotels, fast-food restaurants, gynaecology clinics, and soon enough you'll be the city every European truck driver wants to stop in!
Very easy to deal. (Score:2, Insightful)
Why it's not just a matter of signs (Score:3, Insightful)
The real problem is, for every trucker that actually is clueless and 'innocently' relies totally on the GPS info, there's another one who has heard the road is too narrow and difficult for trucks, but will try it anyway, and then claim he never heard any other driver say differently. The ones that will lie like hell about having foreknowledge are also the ones who will claim they made the decision to go that way based only on GPS info, and they assumed the GPS wouldn't mislead them. They may well claim that their dispatcher didn't say anything either, to shield their firm from potential liability, and try to make it look like the gadjet is the real source of the whole problem.
Now what happens if the truck didn't just clip a historic building or two (Which are pence a dozen in the UK), but, e.g., ran over a kid?
This is really about the difference in UK and US law. In the US, there are plenty of precedents that let the child's parents sue the trucker's firm, the GPS maker, or whomever has the deepest pockets. In the UK, there's much less ability to extend liability to someone only peripherally involved. A tangled mess of a case, with lots of arguments about just who is responsible for what percentage of total damages, tends to result in much more modest settlements there. One thing both locations share is that all too often average people tend to assume a computer based system doesn't make mistakes.
This means the town may be playing it smart - take away the GPS info, and the driver has to justify his decision based on paper maps, talking with the corporate dispatcher, or some other source of info, and if that's not a computer, the driver can't weasel out of much by claiming he assumed the source of info was infallible.
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Sound like a revenue opportunity! (Score:2)
There are small towns that exist only to serve as speed traps on highways. They incorporate near a highway and lower the speed limit to 25 mph. The only service the town provides is a police force. The only thing the police force does is write speeding tickets. Their only sounce for income is from these speeding tickets. This income is only s
I know this place (Score:5, Informative)
It is a death trap and its not just lorries, its tourists who are getting from the west country to bristol. Its a great shortcut between two major roads, but it was not designed for the amount of traffic that gps sends through. They have seen MAJOR increases in traffic since gps became popular.
The roads are built like they are for horse and cart. They wind up and down and they are very narrow with no pavement, people do die there.
Re:I know this place (Score:5, Insightful)
The route doesn't need improving. The town is under no obligation to make life easy for murderous truck drivers with a disdain for country folk. Best is to put up a blockade that is no wider than the narrowest street in the town. A sign could be put on the blockade, that says something like "good luck trying to get through this blockade". Then, economics would prevail and people would stop buying the gps units that advertise a road through that town. This is the most common sense approach.
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Not really. The road has two sharp corners at each end of the village, which slow down cars just fine. Cars, bikes and pedestrians (just) get on fine. The trucks however, do not slow down - and the houses and walls beside the road bear testimony to that.
So I would say that the road is fine for certain types of traffic, but that the GPS nav systems need to be updated to recognise that just because a road is there doesn't mean that it's suitable for all uses. So - not
Superlorry (Score:2, Informative)
I have the solution! (Score:5, Funny)
What? There's a house in the way? You say it's owned by Arthur Dent?
I'll get the byzantine paper trail started, go tell Prosser to fire up the bulldozer.
The US does better in one respect (Score:2)
Good luck to 'em (Score:2)
The Japanese way is more effective (Score:3, Interesting)
No one reads road signs... well some people do, but the risk and frequency of that happening is too high.
The barrier method is both obvious and effective. The only reason it never occurred to me naturally is that we don't have those here in the US. The nearest thing similar in effect in my area are those pipe-grated things that are often found along country roads. Don't know what they are called, but they are used to keep live stock from walking out into the street. We also have various barrier devices similar to those of the Japanese, but they are used to protect buildings or obvious devices and structures, not block access to roads or weak bridges.
Great story! (Score:2)
As I read the link, it says: "You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'LIMIT 18446744073709551615' at line 1". Well, I guess anybody is lucky to be alive after an SQL syntax error...
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Re:Real reason (Score:4, Informative)
Because there might be houses or lots of private property in the way?
There's lots of old towns with roads so narrow that just a single car can pass; horses weren't that fat when those were built.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=+Barrow+Gurney&hl=en&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=13&om=1 [google.com]
Re:there are no trucks in the UK (Score:5, Interesting)
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