Hellgate Beta's In-Game Ads Raise Eyebrows

ari wins writes "IGN.com has up a post discussing the new EA/Flagship game Hellgate: London, and the in-game advertisements it includes to facilitate targeted marketing. Though ads in games aren't exactly new, some Beta testers are objecting to their apparently off-putting presence. Users have also noted that accepting the game's EULA means you submit to the collection of 'technical and related information that identifies your computer, including without limitation your Internet Protocol address, operating system, application software and peripheral hardware'."

This CAN be stopped

[dynamo]

Now that there's a game out there with targeted marketing, the best way to take it down as well as the financial motivation to do it again is simple (but takes a lot of help):

Buy it, wait a week or so, and return it. Then buy it somewhere else, wait a week or so, and return it. If just 5000 people were to do this 5 times each, it could destroy the percieved marketability, and it would be attributed to targeting issue. Enough people wasting enough time of enough computer stores, and computer stores would be best off not carrying it.

Then the investors / decision makers who committed to this sickness get discliplined / lose money, and new investors get scared to do this again.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you return a video game anymore?

Re:

[buswolley]

Don't open the box dummy. Then it is easy to return.

Re:

[mrsteveman1]

If no one opens the box they will wonder why the hell you bought it in the first place, since the point is to make it look like people got pissed at the ads.....

Re:

[basscomm]

Don't open the box dummy. Then it is easy to return.

Yeah, good luck with that. Every Gamestop I've ever been to has the boxes on the shelves and the games in the drawer behind the register. I'm not sure how I can return it to them unopened when I can't even buy it unopened.

Re:

[symbolic]

If it's unopened, I'd be surprised if there were any objection to its return. There's no rule that says you have to play it in order to be completely turned off by this scheme...it could be something as simple as having read about it in a forum, and deciding that this it's far too invasive for your taste.

Re:

[KDR_11k]

The EULA is between you and the publisher, not you and the store. If the store says "we don't take returns" then the EULA can't do jack shit about it. You could try getting the publisher to refund you or you could contest the EULA in court somehow because you weren't presented the contract before purchase and won't get your money back once you read the contract. Not sure that'd work though.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

Most states have laws that say stores have to accept returns for a certain time period after the sale of the product. State laws > Store Policy.

Best Buy tried to stop me from returning a game by saying it was a violation of copyright law, so I acquired a copy of the most recent revision and brought it in with me. The manager realized that fucking with a customer who knows that the law is on their side is a BAD idea (at least in the state of Massachusetts) and my game was returned for a full refund.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Oktober Sunset]

Wait for it...

Wait for it...

Wallmart So Evil Exploit Workers Minimum Wage Sweatshop Labour Censor Music Small Business Bankrupt Heart Of America Small Town Anti Union Child Labour Climate Change Worse Than Hitler Kicked A Puppy Ate A Baby Spat In Your Salad Just Plain Evil Fat Cat Corporate Capitalist Pigs.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[suv4x4]

Buy it, wait a week or so, and return it. Then buy it somewhere else, wait a week or so, and return it. If just 5000 people were to do this 5 times each, it could destroy the percieved marketability, and it would be attributed to targeting issue. Enough people wasting enough time of enough computer stores, and computer stores would be best off not carrying it.

Two things:

1. Astroturf does not feel like real grass. Hell, it doesn't look like real grass. Don't Astroturf.

2. You forgot something: denial. Hell, it can't be the ads, right? It must be the game is bad, despite all those gamers craving to see the targeted ads.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[bmo]

And the only reason I'm singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the game shop/software dealer wherever you are, just walk in say "Dude, You can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant." return the game, and walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's just weird. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both faggots and they'll refund the money really fast just to get 'em out the door. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singin' a bar of Alice's Restaurant, returnin' a game and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said fifty people a day walking in, returnin' a game, singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.

And that's what it is , the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Bad-Software Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar.

--
BMO

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Cheapy]

...or you could just not buy it and send an e-mail explaining why.

Re:

[koko775]

Dollars speak louder than words. A frustrated consumer matters more than a frustrated potential (or non-) customer.

lets try for +5 troll

[v1]

OR you could buy it, install it, activate it, return it, send them an email explaining you were already paying for it by the ad revenue they are now receiving because of it, so you're returning it because you're not going to pay for it TWICE.

If anyone at the store argues about returning open box software, explain the ads. If they won't accept the return on that basis, explain you will be taking your software patronage elsewhere.

Re:

[buswolley]

I like this.For example, I do not wear shirts with logos because I am not receiving ad revenue for it. oh and I don't care if the shirt was pricier or cheaper because of subsidizing by the company of the logo to the t-shirt maker. The shirt should be free(Google model, now c'mon) at least.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[semicolon_underscore]

...or you could just not buy it.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[PrescriptionWarning]

or after playing the demo, you can decide for yourself whether you like it or not.

and to be quite honest after playing the demo, there was really no reason to buy the game. Its not groundbreaking in any way, and I couldn't help but feel bored while playing the demo.

Re:

[Jim Hall]

My god, man .. where would we find the time to do that?

Re:

[JackMeyhoff]

Uhh NO, don't even touch it. This way they get the message VERY QUICKLY, it flops at the start gate.

Re:

[bepe86]

Well, if we do that, and it results in bad sales, the distributor is just going to blame piracy, as always...

Re:

[Shritish]

Why though? You do realize they're offering a free service as well, free accounts for people to sign into and use? Go read the pricing model they have outlined. Don't lynch them because they have a few ads within, mostly.. I've only ever noticed an nVidia ad and haven't noticed any others. This hardly detracts from the gameplay. I doubt there's a need to be puritanical because these guys have a lot of ground to cover on the likes of World of Warcraft. I honestly wouldn't mind them making some extra mon

Re:

[NoodleSlayer]

The point of the game company's splash at the beginning of the game is more for brand recognition. Believe it or not, there's people out there who would have no clue who makes the game they play without it. I see it more as the credits at the beginning of the movie. That has been going on for ages and is quite different then in-game advertising.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[PopeRatzo]

Buy it, wait a week or so, and return it. Then buy it somewhere else, wait a week or so, and return it. If just 5000 people were to do this 5 times each, it could destroy the percieved marketability

You probably will only get a store credit, but if you're going to buy a game anyway, just do this before you get the game you really want.

At least dynamo is trying to give some thought to showing a little Resistance to the companies that are misusing us.

It's time for a little pushback.

Re:

[CrazyJim1]

Return a video game? Where is the dream world you're writing from?

It's still our world, he's just thinking its the late 80's or early 90's when the stores did this. I once even bought a game at Electronic's Boutique then when they wouldn't take it back, I took it back to Babbages and they were cool with it.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[UncleTogie]

Return a video game? Where is the dream world you're writing from?

It's still our world, he's just thinking its the late 80's or early 90's when the stores did this.

He speaks truly. I worked at a mall-based EB back around '88. Back at that time, EB also sold computers, mainly AST and Amstrad brands. We had a shrink-wrap setup in the back, and the policy at the time was to LET customers "try" the software on our demo PCs.

If they saw what they liked, they bought the game and all was well. If not, we took it to the back, and rewrapped and repriced it. Thinking back, I'm not sure if such was legal; if the game has been installed, even on a demo PC, it's not "new", is it? IANAL, so I couldn't tell you...

So yes, Virginia, there WAS a Santa Claus... Now all you get to demo is console games, unless you go to a gaming cybercafe.

Re:

[Belial6]

Putting previously purchased software that looks new back on the shelf is no different than a clothing store putting a returned pair of pants back on the shelf. Or for that matter, a pair of pants that was taken into a changing room and tried on. There is obviously a gray area in retail concerning what is new and what is used.

As long as everyone remembers that my shade of gray is better than their shade of gray, everything will be ok though.

Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Dogtanian]

I once even bought a game at Electronic's Boutique then when they wouldn't take it back, I took it back to Babbages and they were cool with it.

So you're saying you bought a game from a company whose returns policy sucked, and rather than let them deal with it you let them keep the money and instead exploited the goodwill of a company with a more reasonable returns policy? (*)

As far as I'm concerned, this nullifies any right you have to bitch about draconian returns policies or lousy customer service. It's this sort of behaviour that probably led to the killing off of more reasonable store return policies (if not the stores themselves) and encouraged- and justified- the proliferation of those that treat their customers like assholes.

People like you are the reason that we're not living in that "dream world" any more. (**)

God spoke to me.

If I was God, I'd have called you an asshole.

(*) Yeah, I'm waiting for a self-justifying whine along the lines of "they could re-sell it". Like it should be their problem to re-sell your secondhand crap in exchange for "returning" your money that they never received in the first place.
(**) Pre-empt #2; Yes, everyone else was doing it too, and it wouldn't have made any difference what you did as an individual. Whatever.

Re:

[Dogtanian]

Your logic is completely off. He returned the product elsewhere because the point of sale had already denied him. They were ALREADY treating him like an asshole,

Uh.... *yes*. That was the first half of my argument!

Let me restate it for you. He bought the game from the company with the asshole return policy who wouldn't give him his money back. (They get to keep the money). He then exploited the goodwill of another company with a more lenient returns policy (costing them time and/or money even though they never sold him the game nor made any money off it in the first place).

The "asshole" company learns that their policy pays and prospers, the "good" company los

Re:This CAN be stopped

[pla]

Return a video game? Where is the dream world you're writing from?

The law generally trumps "store policy"... Though you may need to sue to get your $50 back (most companies won't even show up in small claims court, practically a slam-dunk).

Also, many states have a VERY useful law relating to this, usually called something like "Buyer's remorse". They don't always apply to such low-priced items, though, so do your homework before you waste your money.

Finally, never forget the power of "making a scene". If you loudly (but not threateningly!) make a fuss over them refusing to take something back (best to wait for the busiest, most crowded part of the day), they'll usually do what you want just to get rid of you.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[arivanov]

In countries that do not have suitable retail legislation (UK) you should buy via mail order or over the Internet. That gives you a 14 days by law to decide if you want to shovel the item back up the retailer's backside. Similar laws apply in most of the EU as a part of the distance selling regulations.

Demo or Beta?

[Gertlex]

I'm not a beta player, and those people are/were under rather heavy NDAs, from what I hear. The demo of the game was released a few days ago, and *that* does indeed have ads in it. (I only noticed an NVidia ad)

Re:

[AuMatar]

And? You seem to think those NDAs mean anything- anyone in a guild or two knows all the details of those betas within a week of them coming out. Nobody follows the betas when it comes to friends or guildies, and they leak from there to common knowledge.

I'm a beta player

[MMaestro]

I'm in the Hellgate beta and the NDA clause was really strict with the official forums being for beta testers only, no screenshots or in game videos allowed, and the general catch-all "you cannot talk about in game content" phrases. I say 'was' because the NDS was lifted just last Friday.

That said, there ARE ads in the game, but contrary to popular belief, the ads DO NOT appear after you leave the stations (read: towns). Unlike the Battlefield 2 ads, which were over sized and overly bright in many cases, t

Re:

[buswolley]

Is the game appreciably cheaper? How much are you worth? A dollar? Two? Twenty? They should pay you for the opportunity to show you ads.

This information on the box?

[Romicron]

Does it say anywhere on the box, "WARNING: This game includes in-game advertising and requires live monitoring of computer information?" Or are there massive amounts of consumers that are going to be shocked to discover that their game requires adware? There's a big difference between "Hey, we warned you" and "Turn around and grab your ankles".

Second question: Anyone know how much this kind of live uploading of advertisements would affect online performance?

Re:

[suv4x4]

Second question: Anyone know how much this kind of live uploading of advertisements would affect online performance?

Online gaming: low traffic, low latency.
Advertisements: big latency, big traffic.

They don't step into each other's territory, and you could guess the ads will be cached, and can have lower priority than the multiplayer traffic.

As for the included adware/spyware/drm/rootkits, that has become customary for PC games. Never again would I let a game installer come near my production PC.

I guess that

Re:

[Dunbal]

and you could guess the ads will be cached

      I hope the advertisers are aware of my fee for storing their ad info on my hard drive. I think $5 a byte should do it.

wtf

[wizardforce]

If a game costs 50$ why the hell should there be ads in it? Who actually puts up with this enough to even make the idea look like something we would tolerate?

Re:wtf

[Rasit]

If a game costs 50$ why the hell should there be ads in it? Who actually puts up with this enough to even make the idea look like something we would tolerate?

Even better, if you dont pay a monthly fee you can only play a gimped character (smaller inventory etc.)

So now we have to pay full price to buy it, pay each month AND get invasive ads?

Re:wtf

[SeekerDarksteel]

1) Your character is not gimped. You don't get certain online only options like shared stashes, guild creation, or the same number of character slots.

2) Not subscribing does absolutely nothing to the single player. A single player game that is good enough on its own to justify the cost of the box. In addition you get free online play even if you never play another dime. I seriously think that if they offered NO free online play, instead saying you can play single player on your own or pay a subscription for online, that there would be less people pissed off.

3) The subscription replaces having to buy expansions every six months or a year. Look at WoW. $15 a month, plus $50 a year for an expansion, plus no single player. And you don't hear anyone bitching about that.

4) You clearly haven't seen the ads. They are far from invasive. You can play through and never even notice that the ads on the subway walls are for real products. They aren't bright neon signs that scream "BUY COKE, MMM COKE." They're dirty worn down subway ads you'd expect to see in a subway. Only they're for actual products. I don't like the precedence either, but it's definitely not a gamebreaker.

Re:

[Kazzahdrane]

Your argument is fairly sound, but WoW is a terrible example. Blizzard didn't release an expansion until the game was 2 years old, and look to be only releasing another a year later. Everquest 1/2 are better examples, as they managed to get through many many expansions in addition to charging a monthly fee. I very much doubt the amount of content added regularly to Hellgate will even approach the size of the boxed Burning Crusade expansion for WoW.

Re:

[SeekerDarksteel]

Wow released an expansion in January. Guess when the next expansion is coming out. Early next 2008. They've also said that they plan on one a year or so from now on. They added a lot of content between release and BC. How much have they added since BC came out? One 40 man instance that was supposed to be out at the same time as the xpac itself that less than 2% of the WoW population will ever even see.

So in conclusion, ditch the attitude if you can't even get your own fucking facts straight.

(Oh, an

Re:wtf

[BarneyL]

The same people who pay for their cable/satelite TV subscription and watch adverts during the commercial breaks? Or buy a magazines with adverts in? The model is not entirely new even if I don't believe for a moment that the adverts in games are there "to reduce the sale price" as is claimed by the publishers.

Re:wtf

[DeepHurtn!]

...because the avarice of corporations knows no bounds?

Ads in game are a good thing!

[Crazy Taco]

There actually are some pretty good reasons to put ads in games. In fact, having ads in games (to a point) can be a win/win for both the software company, which gets more money, and the user, who gets more realism. For instance, if you play a game in a city setting, one would expect realistic ads on billboards, bulletin boards, walls, etc (as opposed to crappy old games where you would race cars through a city, for instance, and every billboard would say "Midway!", which got old really quick). And speaking of racing games, what kind of a NASCAR game would you have if there weren't ads plastered all over the cars? I think having ads in a game is great for realism and cost defrayment (maybe you don't need as many people to buy a game for developers to be willing to make it, since they will also get ad money). As long as they put the ads in context within the game, this is a great thing.

Now, I should say I haven't seen this beta so I don't know if they are crossing the line and putting ads out of context. If every third person in a crowd is wearing an NVIDIA shirt, that is out of context and pretty ridiculous. Also, if performance suffers from downloading new ads for the game or something, that is bad too. But if performance doesn't suffer, downloading new ads could be good. After all, billboards, walls, etc change their ads in real life, so why shouldn't a game? That ads realism and variety to the landscape.

Re:

[Blakey Rat]

Magazines have been tolerated for decades with this exact model. Cable TV is another example. Hell, that's half the draw of the Superbowl each year.

Ads in games.

[camperdave]

Ads in games are nothing new, though. You drove past Atari billboards in Pole Position back in the 1980s. Practically every driving game has billboards. There are ads on the boards in hockey games [elecplay.com] and soccer games [gameguru.in]. I was watching my roommate play a basketball game, and along the sidelines, they had those rolling billboard ad machines just like on television. I thought, "wouldn't it be cool if those displayed real ads".

Advertisers want to put their ad in front of people's eyes. Some people spend an

Re:

[symes]

If a game costs 50$ why the hell should there be ads in it? Who actually puts up with this enough to even make the idea look like something we would tolerate?

I absolutely agree 100% with this. I'm, personally, getting utterly sick of having some glossy marketeer's latest gimmick shoved down my throat. This is especially when I find advertising in and on products I buy. Most print magazines are 50% loose pieces of advertising which need recycling before I can even find the contents page, which is buried between a picture of my next car and a picture of my next trophy wife gently caressing my next mobo. I pay for cable tv and yet get bombarded with ads (thank

Re:

[wizardforce]

Because you probably wouldn't have bought it if it was $70?

I haven't bought any of their later games anyway. You really think that they would pass on their higher profit margin to the consumer? bwahahaha... that's funny. They are doing this to make money at the cost of privacy and the overall gaming experience, it has nothign to do with offsetting prices. Of course they could still try and offer an ad-free version for say 10$ more...

What were the ads?

[JamesTRexx]

I wonder if many will complain when it's ads for Sloggi. :-P
Anyway, seems to me it's about time more and better sandbox programs appear so games like this can be cut off from the OS itself.
No probing what OS, applications and colour of my shirt is, just run the damned game for which people paid good money.
Otherwise I'll just stick to good ol' Simcity, unless the development of games for *nix/*BSD skyrockets.

Re:

[vertinox]

Anyway, seems to me it's about time more and better sandbox programs appear so games like this can be cut off from the OS itself.

As an Intel Mac Gamer, I do this already. I play all my games in bootcamp or parallels and leave anything personal and business related on the OS X side of things. I suppose the could find out what other games I am playing but that is about it.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Marketing Has Succeeded

[nurb432]

If it has gotten to the point that ads are expected and feel 'right' in a video game, then the marketeers have won.

ADs are not 'right' in any context, especially when you are paying for the product.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[derfy]

Wait a minute. Games are trying to imitate reality. In reality, subway stations have ads in them. So, shouldn't games have ads in them* to "feel right"?

* = WHERE APPROPRIATE. Games like WoW do not need billboards in them.

But I agree on the paying aspect. If you pay, you don't see ads(unless you want to).

And, make the game cost less due to the ad revenue.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[Tim C]

but when I play a game, I'm usually playing because it's *not* like real life. If I wanted a game that was just like real life, I'd go out side and experience actual real life.

Fighting the demonic hordes is cool. Fighting the demonic hordes in a futuristic setting is cooler. Fighting the demonic hordes in a futuristic setting in my home town is about as cool as it can get. (Although note that I've not played the game yet, it could well suck)

when your game is about demons from hell invading London thirty years in the future, being realistic goes straight out the window

Just because the premise is unrealistic, doesn't mean that the setting has to be. Believe me, the Tube is *covered* with adverts - some stations now even have LCD screens with moving ads playing (thankfully no sound as yet...). Not having adverts in the game would be jarring for those of us who actually use the Tube (or I guess any similar train system) on a daily basis. Kind of like when it rains in Oblivion and the rain goes straight through archways, etc. It's a little thing, but it spoils the realism a bit.

Re:

[dave1g]

well, they aren't paying for the beta, I assume....

Re:

[Rallion]

ADs are not 'right' in any context, especially when you are paying for the product.

You must really hate magazines. A lot.

Re:

[GiMP]

> If it has gotten to the point that ads are expected and feel 'right' in a video game, then the
> marketeers have won.

I'm not so sure that there was ever a battle to win. More of a 'bending over'.

Anyway, there are places where you *expect* to see ads, such as billboards on the side of a highway, oin a subway station, or on the side of a bus. Older games either missed this realism (come on, how many highways do you know without any billboards?) or had fake advertisements.

I guess for the game develope

Re:

[Draek]

get the ads out of real-life stations, and then they won't feel 'right' on a video-game one anymore.

sorry, but the battle against 'marketeers' was lost decades ago.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[naoursla]

The real way to attack this is to get rid of advertising in real-life places like subways. Then the game makers won't have the "more realistic" excuse to put ads in-game.

Re:

[Lonewolf666]

So far, so good, but the EULA bit about data collection is still annoying enough that I will ignore this game.
Besides, it is supposed to have too much instancing for my taste ;-)

You let them manipulate you...

[Ardeaem]

Since these are basically subway stations, you expect to see ads there, and they aren't obtrusive at all, so they feel like part of the environment rather than being a jarring experience.

Hellgate is not the game to make an outrage over, because the ads in it are so tastefully done that they feel right.

Simply because you don't notice the ads doesn't mean they don't effect you. The ads in the game are subtly changing your outlook towards the product being advertised. In fact, it is better for them if you don't notice them. You are being taken advantage of all the time by advertisers, and the fact that people now accept this as being normal is very sad.

When you start thinking of advertising as normal and even part of an enjoyable entertainment experience, you have given companies an open-ended invitatio

Your IP address is being broadcast RIGHT NOW!

[mattgreen]

Dear God, not again!

Luckily I had a helpful error box pop up and only had to pay $19.95 (plus VA 4.5% sales tax) to stop this heinous security oversight that is present in EVERY operating system on the Internet!

Re:

[j79zlr]

Mining your IP address and OS version is nothing special, but TFS says that it also transmits information about your installed programs and connected hardware. That is a little more invasive than the info included in your headers.

Advertising

[niceone]

I find advertising pretty off-putting in the real world too. Just another reason to stay in the basement...

Cursor tracking

[BlueParrot]

Taking bets on weather this will be seen as a reason to make the game "phone home" about what users "look at" in-game ? I'd expect them to track your cursor, camera angles, and zoom at the very least.

Re:

[derfy]

What odds can you give me on a tornado?

Re:

[legirons]

Taking bets on weather this will be seen as a reason to make the game "phone home" about what users "look at" in-game ? I'd expect them to track your cursor, camera angles, and zoom at the very least.

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20070914 [userfriendly.org]

Two Words

[Dunbal]

This makes sense really, when you consider who is pushing for this:

Electronic Arts.

Yet another reason why I hope they will die a fiery death. I haven't bought an EA game since they bought/shut down GameStorm [wikipedia.org] because "gasp" it competed with "Ultima Online".

Beta Acceptance

[XenoPhage]

So, I was invited to take part in this particular Beta... But after hearing about the draconian EULA and now this, I'm not sure I have any interest... *sigh* I miss the days where I could Beta test something without having to worry about my privacy...

Spying

[ChaoticCoyote]

I don't mind in-game ads, as long as they're inobtrusive.

I do mind giving EA and Flagship blanket permission to examine everything on my computer. READ what their "agreement" says -- they can mine your computer for whatever data they want, and give/sell it to whomever pays for it.

I keep sensitive business data, covered by NDAs, on my computer; I don't want anonymous strangers mining through my music, documents, source code, and data. Quite simply, the Hellgate: London agreement is completely unreasonable and dangerous.

Anyone who supports Free Software should understand the principles involved here, and refuse to accept Hellgate London on their computer.

Re:Spying

[illumin8]

I do mind giving EA and Flagship blanket permission to examine everything on my computer. READ what their "agreement" says -- they can mine your computer for whatever data they want, and give/sell it to whomever pays for it.

This is such a non-story, it isn't even funny. Talk about blowing things out of proportion. Their agreement gives them the right to do less than Google has the right to do every time you make a search. What's more, they even promise not to use your individual data in any way. It is only used in aggregate form, pretty much like Google. Check this text, from the very agreement (emphasis mine):

EA and/or the Related Parties may also use this information in the aggregate and, in a form which does not personally identify you, to improve our products and services and we may share that aggregate data with our third party service providers.

I've been playing the beta the last 2 weeks, and I must tell you, this game pretty much rocks. It's like Diablo 2 met Halflife 2 and they had a baby. A demon spawned, zombie killing, FPS if you want to or hack-n-slash or pew-pew with spells if you want to, clickfest of a game. This game is like Diablo 2 in full 3d on crack. It is about as addictive as crack, and you're going to be hearing a lot about it over the next couple weeks.

What about the info?

[Jartan]

Let's not waste our anger on whether or not there are ads. The real problem is the bogus parts about them collecting some "anonymous" info.

According to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Incorporated [wikipedia.org]

Second, the SDK is integrated with the game to act as a client to Massive's ad servers. It allows the game to fetch the ad, display it on a surface, and analyze how the player acts around it. Massive refers to this as "Phase II: Integration of the Software Development Kit (SDK)."

Oh and just to mak

Re:

[Aladrin]

You know what? What you just described... I don't mind. If they want to record that I spent 30 second staring at a billboard with Axe body spray, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with them logging my IP. (All of them probably do, anyhow.)

What I'm not fine with is then also taking down ANY information that is on my personal computer. They have no right to collect or use information about what hardware, software or data is on my computer.

It's a good thing I got tired of the same old MMO BS, because back whe

Ads in a game you pay for=Stealing

[WCMI92]

I expect ads in something I get for free, as in over the air radio or TV. But I don't in a video game I'd have to pay for.

A $50 game that I have to accept ads and spyware to play? No thanks. Sell it for $10 or give it away for free, and you might justify it.

Re:

[aseth]

Just like how there are no ads on cable TV, right?

Re:

[WCMI92]

Cable TV is cheaper than it would be if there were no ads at all. And premium channels (like HBO) have no ads at all. When you are shoving ads into a $50 game (which is typically what games cost these days, maybe even a little ABOVE average priced) you are expecting me to pay full price PLUS put up with ads.

Re:

[GooberToo]

Cable TV is cheaper than it would be if there were no ads at all.

That's actually not true. Most people don't remember then but when cable first came out to the masses, 90% of the selling point is that you would ONLY get commercials on network broadcast channels. Once they had their foot in the door in most markets, commercials changed over night. Since then, it has been the same old story; lie, lie, lie, raise prices again, just like everyone other monopoly/utility. I seem to recall cable being commerc

Re:

[cicho]

Your TV doesn't mine your apartment for personal data and upload it to the cable company. And anyway, the prevalence of advertising in the media is only one more reason to STOP any further encroachment, not tolerate it.

This is a surprise to whom?

[doug141]

Just as advertising is all over the real world, so will it be all over the virtual one.

It's only in subways

[krunk7]

It's not that big a deal. Subways with bare walls would be very odd. Extremly odd and not even close to realistic. So you have a game whose environment includes add ridden subways (just like in real life). Now the developer has to ask a question: Which adds do we display in the subways? You can choose at random or you can do what the subways do: whoever pays.

If, for the sake of realism, you have to put adds in the subway stations, why not make money off of it? The game experience is the same, the only difference is instead of seeing "Moca Mola" and "Nickers" adds you see the same ones your used to in real subways (Coca Cola and Snickers).

Now if we started seeing the "Legendary Snicker Hammer of Pwnage" and the "Coca Cola Champion's Sword" I'd be put off....but this isn't the case at all.

Re:It's only in subways

[ChaoticCoyote]

The issue isn't the ads themselves -- it's the blanket data mining clause included in the EULA.

I don't care about ads -- I do care about people snooping around on my computer.

It's the "EULA"

[Jane Q. Public]

If I don't like ads, I can always just not buy another product from that company. But a "EULA" that says you agree to it transmitting personal information to the company, telling it not just that you bought the game but when you are playing it??? I will pass on that one.

I do not know about game-specific retailers per se, but not one major software retailer in the United States (CompUSA, etc.) will give refunds for opened software. The software companies themselves encouraged that policy "to fight piracy". So statements in shrink-wrap EULAs to the effect that if you don't like the terms you should just return the product are misleading at best. If I were a judge, I would call it outright "fraud" because the software companies are well aware of that situation... they created it!

Re:

[coolGuyZak]

If you're old enough, purchase games with a credit card with a consumer protection plan. The credit card company refunds your money if the store doesn't. If you're not old enough, then ask your parent or guardian to do it and give them the money for the game.

IP

[sh3l1]

From the EULA:

Massive may collect your Internet protocol address and other basic anonymous information...

How is an IP address even close to anonymous?

EA wants it both ways

[Elyscape]

Normally, I wouldn't have much of a problem with this. In-game ads are, IMO, fine so long as they don't detract from the atmosphere or invade your computer in any significant way. In other words, the ads should at least be plausibly valid in the context of the game (so no advertisements for, say, computer parts in a medieval game, but feel free in a modern game).

My problems are as follows.

1. The ads, at least those in the demo, don't fit at all. I saw a faded ad for some movie to be released in 2032, which was fine. What wasn't was the nVidia ad right next to it. It was very obviously anachronistic and, frankly, utter bullshit.
2. This software is a bit too invasive. Read your software and hardware configuration? Fuck you. If you're only monitoring what I do in-game and how long I look at each, that's fine. But the instant you start looking at things outside the nice sandbox of your game, you have crossed the line. Fuck off and leave me alone.
3. They're already making extra money! If you want the extra features and content, you need to pay a monthly fee! And now they're trying to turn our eyeballs into checks? Choose one or the other, not both! If you're going to charge a monthly fee for parts of your game, don't force advertising on your customers! And if you're going to force advertising on your customers, you damn well better give them all the content you have for free.

This is such bullshit. While in-game advertising doesn't have to suck, EA seems intent on ensuring that it does.

To all of those saying "It adds to the realism"...

[hsoft]

If EA was actually putting those ads "because it adds to realism", there would be an OPTION to disable the ads in-game. This is like everything corporate. Give them your hand, they will take your arm. This is only the beginning...

Advertisers should host servers

[__aawdrj2992]

I never understood why advertisers and publishers want to slow down the servers with ads when they could instead host low ping servers (relatively low cost/ month). Many games let clans put up an image in the loading screen, so why not have the advertiser pay for the price of hosting the server and just put a banner ad in the loading screen? Instead of being an ingame nuisance, they could turn it into a positive.

Blocking ingame advertising

[Cecil]

For anyone who's interested in blocking ingame advertising, I'm sure it will end up being a rapidly changing arms race as usual, but for the moment, blocking the following IP ranges is sufficient to kill updated advertising and privacy-invading "impressions" tracking from both of the major ad providers (IGA Worldwide and Massive Inc)

38.119.38.0/24 (Massive Inc)
65.55.179.0/24 (Massive Inc)
72.3.184.144/28 (IGA)
72.32.5.0/28 (IGA)

Massive does lookups on the domain madserver.net (imp.madserver.net, media.madserver.net, z.madserver.net, etc ad nauseum) to get its IP addresses, whereas IGA seems to use hardcoded IPs (there is no reverse-lookup for them either, although they are hosted by rackspace)

The massive blocks are enough to block advertising and impressions data for Enemy Territory: Quake Wars as well as SWAT4 and does not seem to have any effect on gameplay. They have been confirmed with tcpdump. The only other network activity (besides multiplayer) are simply checking for updates and registering with the master multiplayer servers at
demonware.net.

I am not so sure about the IGA blocks, that's mostly just information from forum posts, since I don't have Battlefield 2142 there's not much I can do to test it. Your milage may vary.

Re:Does it run on Linux?

[ubrgeek]

Usually a nice cheese ;)

Re:Unobtrusive

[MaineCoon]

I never saw ads in Hellgate London demo or the retail version of BF2142. I think it may be because I'm behind a hardware firewall (Linksys WRT54GL, yay).

On the other hand, Hellgate London demo was a real yawner. Very disappointing. Unplayably buggy in the gameplay department (everything else ran smoothly though) - I literally reached a dead end along the linear path that I had to take to get to the next zone and complete the main questline, which I assume upon completion the demo would end. Went back, and could find no alternative path through either of the last two areas on the path.

Re:Unobtrusive

[SeekerDarksteel]

The reason you probably never saw the ads is because they're almost impossible to actually see unless you're looking for them. I was playing the beta for several weeks before I realized that the ads on the subway walls were actual ads for real products. They're integrated into the environment and easy to look over.

As for the demo, they really messed up. The beta is less buggy (although still has a couple kinks to work out). They just shouldn't have released the demo at all to be honest.

Re:

[illumin8]

On the other hand, Hellgate London demo was a real yawner. Very disappointing. Unplayably buggy in the gameplay department (everything else ran smoothly though) - I literally reached a dead end along the linear path that I had to take to get to the next zone and complete the main questline, which I assume upon completion the demo would end. Went back, and could find no alternative path through either of the last two areas on the path.

You reached the end of the demo. I've been playing in the actual beta, an

Re:

[hedwards]

That was what I was wondering. People do have differing standards, but it would be nice to see a few screen shots. It does make a huge difference if the ads look appropriate to the environment.

I wouldn't mind necessarily playing a race car simulation which included advertisements pretty much everywhere, for the reason that real races will have tons of advertisements everywhere. Just don't take the intrusive information that isn't related and do lower the price on the game by using the advertising revenue to

Re:Unobtrusive

[illumin8]

I'm in the beta, and the NDA just lifted yesterday, so here are some screenshots. The ads are very unobtrusive. The game takes place in London, 2038, after hellgates have opened and demons have killed 99% of the people on the earth. So, having posters appear on the walls of dirty, blasted out subway tunnel walls fits in very well with the theme of the game. The posters are so dingy you can barely read them unless you look close, and it matches the post-apocalyptic feel of the game to see ads from the "past." Judge for yourself:

Screenshot 1 [iswiki.com]
Screenshot 2 [iswiki.com]
Screenshot 3 [iswiki.com]

As far as the gameplay goes? This game totally rocks! Imagine if Diablo and Half-Life 2 had a baby. A demon and zombie infested, mutant loot pinata of a baby... Basically, you can hack and slash if you want to, pew-pew with spells if you want to, or shoot guns like an FPS if you want to. It's Diablo in full 3d, by Bill Roper and most of the guys from Blizzard North that created Diablo 1 and 2. There is single player and online multi-player. The online multi-player is instanced like Guild Wars, where only the towns are public. It's one hell of a lot of fun, and completely addictive, just like the original Diablos were. Imagine Diablo with full 3d, a physics engine, and exploding barrels ala HL2.

I think you're going to be hearing a lot of good things about this game.

Re:

[Hemogoblin]

Maybe it's my monitor, but those screenshots are so dark I can't even see the ads if I squint and look real hard. I even closed the blinds and I still can't see them.

That's not how it works

[tkrotchko]

"Perhaps use some of the revenue to release extra content for the game."

More revenue means more profit, not more "stuff" for the buyer. Your transaction is done.

Put yourself in EA's shoes. Anyway they can make more profit they'll do it. They'll kill kittens, throw your mother in jail, do whatever it takes to make more money.

Most games are mediocre. They're not horrible, they'll kill an afternoon or 3 with some fun. But they're pretty unmemorable. So you can go to Eletronic Gaming Stop and buy the late

Re:Just give in.. Sooner or later you will anyway.

[Daimanta]

It's a game, not the apocalypse or big brother or anything. If you use this scaremongering long enough it will lose all meaning and when the day comes that it gets nasty, nobody will believe you.

Don't cry wolf if there's no wolf around.

Re:

[Zironic]

I'll live happily with my illegal ad-free copy thank you very much. I bet someone will hack the game to disable the ads.

One thing about the information they gather though, In some countries like mine(Sweden) there are some very strict privacy laws that prevents people from gathering the kind of data they plan to gather. I wonder what they'll plan to do about that, I don't think I ever saw any adds in BF2142, might be because of that.

Created a survey to answer question ..

[AHumbleOpinion]

I decided to formalize my curiosity and create a survey. Thank you for your participation. I'll post results back here at some point.

Click Here to take survey [surveymonkey.com]