Belgium May Prosecute the Church of Scientology 755
sheean.nl writes "A Belgian prosecutor recommended after a 10-year investigation that the government prosecute the church of Scientology. The church is accused of being a criminal organization involved in extortion, fraud, unfair trading, violation of privacy laws, and unlawfully practicing medicine. Both the Belgian and the European branches of the church should be brought to court, according to the authorities. The investigation was started in 1997 after former Scientologists complained about intimidation and extortion by the church. Other European countries such as Germany have problems with Scientology, but in the US it is officially recognized as a religion. Scientology has 10 million members including high-profile followers such as Tom Cruise and John Travolta." Scientology has long used heavy-handed legal and other tactics to suppress opposition on the Net.
Go On Post, Say all you want (Score:5, Funny)
Fucking Scientologists. (Score:5, Informative)
His name was Xenu. He used renegades. Various misleading data by means of circuits etc. was placed in the implants.
When through with his crime loyal officers (to the people) captured him after six years of battle and put him in an electronic mountain trap where he still is. "They" are gone. The place (Confederation) has since been a desert. The length and brutality of it all was such that this Confederation never recovered. The implant is calculated to kill (by pneumonia etc) anyone who attempts to solve it. This liability has been dispensed with by my tech development.
One can freewheel through the implant and die unless it is approached as precisely outlined. The "freewheel" (auto-running on and on) lasts too long, denies sleep etc and one dies. So be careful to do only Incidents I and II as given and not plow around and fail to complete one thetan at a time.
In December 1967 I knew someone had to take the plunge. I did and emerged very knocked out, but alive. Probably the only one ever to do so in 75,000,000 years. I have all the data now, but only that given here is needful.
One's body is a mass of individual thetans stuck to oneself or to the body.
One has to clean them off by running incident II and Incident I. It is a long job, requiring care, patience and good auditing. You are running beings. They respond like any preclear. Some large, some small.
Thetans believed they were one. This is the primary error. Good luck.
Re:Fucking Scientologists. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Fucking Scientologists. (Score:5, Insightful)
At least Belgium is looking to treat it for what it is a money making corporation and not a religion or even a cult. The cynicism of that corporation is beyond normal reason, they abhor psychiatrists and psychologists because apparently those professions directly threaten their main revenue source, by curing those individuals suffering from mental diseases, the preferred target of the scientology corporation.
Re:Fucking Scientologists. (Score:5, Informative)
Xenu - Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]
OT III Scholarship Page [cmu.edu]
Fishman Affidavit - OT3, summary and comments [spaink.net]
DMCA complaint [chillingeffects.org]
Re:Fucking Scientologists. (Score:5, Insightful)
But see posts later in the discussion, regarding a Slate post that CoS isn't any weirder than others, just newer.
http://www.slate.com/id/2171416/ [slate.com]
At some level, religion of any stripe disturbs me, as I see it all as both irrational and irrelevant. That said, at least some religions seem able to at least maintain a bit of dignity in their celebrations, and not *completely* insult the intelligence of their followers. I thought lost tribes of Israel present in central America (contrary to genetic evidence, but then we're not speaking of people who would believe in genetics), and wearing underwear that seems to serve the function of a wearable Post It note was a bit odd.
Now I'm trying to quantify the limits of weird, thinking of how reincarnation would rate, etc. At some point, my head will explode. Have you seen Tim Burton's _Mars Attacks_? Yeah, like that.
Re:Fucking Scientologists. (Score:5, Informative)
And they've starred in more than one legal case, here's to it starring in another one
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Reductio ad absurdum (Score:5, Insightful)
Scientology serves as the "Reductio ad absurdum" for all religion. This may explain why so many feel so uncomfortable about it.
Re:Reductio ad absurdum (Score:4, Funny)
Jonah could probably speak whale.
Re:The difference is... (Score:5, Interesting)
Romans v. Christian converts
Catholic v. Protestant
Sunni v. Shi'a
Shi'a v. Baha'i
Hundu v. Sikh
Christian v. Mormon
Jew v. (please select one from Column B)
Southern Baptist v. Fossils
Zoroastrians v. (too lazy to Wikipedia it)
Communist v. Other Communist (cults of personality are no different than religions except where their god lives)
Just to point out, I'm not defending Scientology, just making sure that the playing field is level. Makes it easier to set the goddam field on fire and bury it.
Re:Reductio ad absurdum (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Reductio ad absurdum (Score:5, Insightful)
And at any rate, what does it matter? If one accepts that knowing the truth is a good thing, belief in an absurd mythology is bad no matter where it came from.
I'm going to hell for these postings, aren't I?
Re:Reductio ad absurdum (Score:5, Informative)
Does the "religion" make you pay to find their beliefs? Christians/Jews/Muslims: No Scientology: Yes
If you only pay a little bit, are you told a different truth than if you pay a lot? Christians/Jews/Muslims: No Scientology: Yes
Does the religion take you to court if you reveal their beliefs? Christians/Jews/Muslims: No Scientology: Yes
And, for pity's sake, the Jonah/Noah/parting of the sea myths are all thousands of years old, and part of an oral culture that embellishes stories to make them interesting. I seriously doubt that every part of the Iliad (let alone the Odyessy) is factual, but it's still an important part of ancient Greek culture.
Re:Reductio ad absurdum (Score:5, Insightful)
My point being that if the Bible is the infallible word of God then there is no room to pick and choose. If the tale of Jonah is a myth then the gospels are suspect as well.
I have no such problem with The Iliad because no one is basing a religion on it. It's just a rip-roaring action adventure and the truth of it matters little.
Who Cares (Score:4, Insightful)
Though an argument could be made otherwise (crusades, inquisition, etc.), for the most part (IMO) religion has benefited mankind as a whole.
The main points (in major summation) to most religions are: Be nice, and worship X deity. Only the former really matters.
I like the way Douglas Adams puts it:
Re:Reductio ad absurdum (Score:5, Interesting)
For instance, the Pentateuch, the first 5 books of the Old Testament, are written in a number of styles. Genesis and Exodus are largely prose narrative with many figures of speech. Leviticus is largely a book of law. Numbers is intended as a historical account of the beginnings of the Jewish civilisation in Israel. The emphasis in Deuteronomy is of a more spiritual nature, outlining the love relationship of the Lord with his people.
Likewise, in the New Testament, we have the Gospel according to Luke, a doctor, which begins:
"Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophillus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught."
and we have the Gospel according to John, which focuses on signs of Jesus' identity and mission, presenting the facts as he saw them, and explaining further the meanings behind what occurred. Also by John (generally accepted as the same John, but potentially John the Presbyter), we have the book of Revelation, which is the only book in the Christian bible to be composed of entirely apocalyptic literature.
What I am trying to show is that there are sound reasons for not taking every word of the Bible literally. The authors did not intend each book to be taken literally and the writing styles show this. For more information, many recent publications of the Bible include introductions to each book, and some "study" Bibles offer commentaries from biblical scholars. Zondervan publishing usually include such introductions at the beginning of each book, especially in the New International Version (NIV) translation.
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Good point. However, the Bible is NOT the infallible word of God; it is a collection of texts that were extracted from a larger tradition of Jewish and early Christian texts by a group of Christian leaders some time in the early middle ages; or something like that. In other words - this is a highly edited work and certainly anything but a text written or inspired directly by an almighty god. So you can ind
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If the tale of Jonah isn't literally true, what else in the Bible isn't true? Perhaps someone could go through with a yellow highlighter and mark off those parts I should believe, and those parts I can dismiss as mythology. Given that the world's largest religion is based on it, I think knowing which bits are true would be rather important.
The highlighter you are looking for is generally referred to as an education in theology. Depending on what interpretation you subscribe to, different parts of the book will be highlighted. If you go strictly by Aquinas, only a handful of basic tenets remain and the rest is open to questioning and is only really meant as a tool to instruct those less well educated (which would include the lower priesthood).
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My point being that if the Bible is the infallible word of God then there is no room to pick and choose. If the tale of Jonah is a myth then the gospels are suspect as well. "
This is a straw man, because the major Christian denominations outside the US (and therefore the vast bulk of the world's Christians) don't claim that the Bible is the infallible word of God, and do not therefore try a
Re:Reductio ad absurdum (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, if you quote Psalms 22:21 from the King James Version you get " Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. " and then someone somewhere along the line realizes that there were no unicorns, so to keep the "truth" "truthful" they translated it a little differently in the New International Version " Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen. "
So, if we believe the King James Version, then there were unicorns in biblical times, and since we are reasonably certain there were no unicorns, we'll just sweep that under the rug and change them into 'wild oxen'... that way people will continue to believe the bible is factual and will keep coming to Sunday services and tithing...
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Also, mythology is not bad per se. It can help us understand archetypes of human nature, and provides a basis for culture. Believing it's true, indoctrinating children into believing it's true, that the supernatural is real, that they have an invisible friend who lives in the sky listening to them... that's infantile, sad and something that belongs in the middle ages.
Wake up, and stop believing in anything supernatural. There's the Universe, and it's a lot more than we can comprehend even t
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I suspect most religions appeared pretty ludicrous early on. Only with the patina of age did they gain respectability.
Re:Fucking Scientologists. (Score:5, Insightful)
The Jews, Christians, and Muslims don't charge $360,000 for it, nor do they sue people who hand out copies of their scriptures.
It's not the doctrines, it's the ensuing lawsuits, that mark the difference between a religion and a racketeering operation. Why does God need a starship? Same reason he needs a team of copyright lawyers: he doesn't, and anyone claiming he does is a fraud.
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I don't think the Catholic church was ever as sue happy as the Scientologists though. They just imprisoned or burned the people they didn't like.
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People do tend to have a fallacious idea that their personality is unitary. Unity is something that one can aspire to (possibly unwisely), but it's not something that is normally present. This is usually masked by "state specific memories", in which each sub-component of the self finds it easier to remember the things that it has experienced than those experienced by other states of mind (i.e., mini-personalities). An extreme example of this is
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People do tend to have a fallacious idea that their personality is unitary... each sub-component of the self finds it easier to remember the things that it has experienced than those experienced by other states of mind... this is very standard. As such, much of what you have said (ignoring the SF component) seems to be orthodox psychology stated in unfamiliar terms.
Sorry, but you would be wrong to conclude that Scientology represents mainstream psychology couched in different terminology. Perhaps both explain the "you have to be drunk to do well on a test if you were drunk when you studied" meme. I suppose that yes, we have feelings, and when we feel certain ways we are more apt to recall emotionally similar experiences. Scientology supposes that our personalities comprise the disparate wills of ageless spirits glued to our life essence by an alien overlord (or so
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I'm not sure if Scientologists can do something similar.
As for Judaism and the Torah saying it's OK to kill others, you'd see that:
1) There are bits dealing the Israelites killing others were the Israelites taking t
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That's the one thing I like about Scientologists: their mythology is so entertaining.
Ja, but it's not really entertaining.... just amusing. Really, it's typical third-rate juvenile science fiction, much like you would find in 50's back issues of Amazing Stories. If you actual sit down and try to read any of L.Ron Hubbard's work (e.g. Battlefield Earth), you are struck with the sheer talentlessness of the man. No wonder he ended up using his only true skill (salesmanship) to make his fortune. He certainly was no writer.
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Hey, some of us like that stuff [tripod.com]. SF has a long history of hare-brained ideas, and I find it all the more entertaining for that. (One of my current favorites is S.M. Stirling, who fantasizes about slavery surviving into the 21st century. Absurd. But great fun to read.) Hubbard was just the the only one who turned his hare-brained ideas into a second career.
But forget about Battlefiel
Gonna have a Clam Bake! (Score:5, Interesting)
Scientology is the 20th Century production of pseudo-religious scientificism in America - much as the LDS church was it's 19th century production. I expect Scientology to be at least as virulent - and ultimately compromised into the mainstream - as its Mormon predecessor. It will even gain them "martyrs" as LDS fallaciously claim for Joseph Smith - beaten to death by a mob he defrauded.
Re:Gonna have a Clam Bake! (Score:4, Funny)
j/k, of course. The 21st century equivalent is already there; it's known as Web 2.0...
ElRon must be so upset... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:ElRon must be so upset... (Score:5, Funny)
They should strap magnets to him, and wrap a coil around the casket. Free electricity!
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Will this cause (Score:5, Funny)
Scientology not a Cult? (Score:5, Interesting)
It doesn't so much make Scientology look better, as make other religions look bad...
Re:Scientology not a Cult? (Score:4, Insightful)
It doesn't matter whether it's a 'cult' or not.
It matters that they use extortion to silence critics. Repeatedly. They accuse them of child porn, they have them arrested on bogus charges, they break into their houses and harass them at work. They've even kidnapped 'errant members' before, and at least such one person has actually disappeared while in their custody.
It has nothing to do with the rather surreal beliefs of their religion.
Incidentally, whether not something is a cult also has nothing to with the beliefs. It is simply a list of things like 'requires members to cut off contact with family' and 'uses sleep/food deprivation as a form of mind control' and stuff like. Scientology uses some of the cult tricks, and not others, so whether or not it actually is a cult is debatable, but that is not why they run into legal trouble, they run into legal trouble because parts of their organization operate illegally in attacking critics.
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Religion (n) A large, popular cult...
Re:Scientology not a Cult? (Score:5, Informative)
Oh really? If you want to learn what Baptists believe, go into a Baptist church and ask. They'll give you a Bible and as much denomination-specific literature as you care to leave with. You won't have to give your name, although they might ask for it. You won't have to join. You won't have to pay them anything. You won't have to sign a non-disclosure statement. And should you decide that you like it and wish to join that particular church, you're free to leave at any time. In fact, church membership isn't a requirement of their belief system at all (although it's recommended so that you can continue to learn about it and hang out with like-minded people). No one will tell you where to work or where to live or which doctor to go to or who you can be friends with.
And that, to me, is the difference between a religion and a cult. You may completely disagree with what Baptists believe, but they'll tell you the entire story in advance and let you decide for yourself. The same goes for pretty much every other mainstream religion. On the other hand, if a group requires a donation or commitment before they'll even tell you what you're joining, run screaming. There are enough Open Source religions around that there's not much point in joining a proprietary sect.
Re:Scientology not a Cult? (Score:5, Informative)
While I agree with the gist of what you're saying...
This simply isn't true for many churches. While the church won't send out their legal hounds, I have personally seen many pastors and religious leaders who DO tell their followers such things. Some jobs are against God's will, some friends should be sidelined, since they do not believe. Heck, aren't Jehovah's Witnesses aren't allowed blood transfusions? That's a pretty big "can't see that doctor" to me.
So yes, the difference between cult and religion is that the former wants compensation for belief, while the latter does not. But both can cause believers to do terrible things.
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No one will tell you where to work or where to live or which doctor to go to or who you can be friends with.
This is not always true... many "Christian" groups are very restrictive. This seems to be common in the mid west of America where churches would seem to have stronger power over the people. Kids raised into a religion are often taught to avoid other sects because of fundamental differences. Schools in some states are not taught Darwinian theory because it is felt it's in direct conflict with the bible. I'm sure the Catholic church still maintains a list of banned books.
But... things on the religion fro
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All churches are guilty of that (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:All churches are guilty of that (Score:4, Informative)
Agreed, but in all fairness to the 'regular' religions, they at least welcome you in and then extort you, whereas Scientology extorts the money up front, over a long period of time, before you're allowed full access to the church's teachings.
Re:All churches are guilty of that (Score:5, Insightful)
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No, the Co$ has some well-established company (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, it is very un-PC to point this out. Watch the replies to this comment for gratuitous attacks.
Scientology is a racket, but they have a ways to go before they catch up to "mainstream" religion.
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And apart from that - the way you say this makes it sound as if this is what all Muslims do: 'The Muslims have
And don't
Re:No, the Co$ has some well-established company (Score:4, Insightful)
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Seems stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
Why don't we all just ignore the cult and let it die on it's own? Apparently the 10 million figure is highly exaggerated, which makes people think they are more of a threat than they really are. High up, Scientology WANTS to be persecuted so they can energize their followers and gain the sympathy of others.
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They're too dangerous to ignore (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not saying they should get the attention of law enforcement groups because they're a cult. But I am saying that when a cult acts like a criminal organization, they should not be ignored just because they are a cult.
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Scientology is not benign. It's insidious, dangerous, and relentless.
Not officially recognized as a religion (Score:5, Informative)
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Many municipalities require "religious" buildings to be zoned residential and have a steeple of some sort (it can be inconspicuous, but there's a minimum height requirement). If these conditions aren't met, then the local government won't give it tax-exempt status. Sure, you can get out of federal taxes as a non-profit, but there's property taxes, sales taxes, and all the other local stuff.
Then there's the states. Some states require each church location to register (similar to the property-t
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But yeah, you're right, there's no officially recognized religion(s) in the US. None at all.
European headquarters here too. (Score:5, Insightful)
In 1998 or so they where already being cataloged as a sect, not a church, which is important here (state money and benefits I suppose). It is estimated that Belgium has 8000 Scientologists, which is pretty lousy on 10 million, but still, with the headquarters, it could be painful for them.
a few more followers (Score:5, Interesting)
Scientology has 10 million members including high-profile followers such as Tom Cruise and John Travolta.
Don't forget
Beck [wikipedia.org]
Jenna Elfman [wikipedia.org]
Leah Remini [cnn.com] (King of Queens, Old School)
Jason Lee [wikipedia.org]
Juliette Lewis [contactmusic.com]
and a bunch of others... [scientology-kills.org]
Seth
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
nitpicking (Score:3, Insightful)
Scientology is NOT a religion! (Score:5, Funny)
They believe that absurd fictional super-powered entities are controlling our lives.
They indoctrinate their believers to give up their common sense and rely on the group for 'truth'. They suck money out of their victims and they prosecute anyone who opposes their growth!
How dare they try to be considered a religion!
Umm.. wait a minute.. never mind...
Scientology is so 20th century (Score:5, Funny)
It's the hottest new religion and all the big name Hollywood stars are taking part!
You see, 1,000,000 Jillion years ago, the evil alien overlord Xanus ruled the galaxy and a horrible plague of dysentery broke out among all of the populated planets. To eradicate the plague, he rounded up all sufferers of the plague and piled them into huge toilet bowl shaped vessels (see the Ori from Stargate, they stole the design from us and we will sue in internet court!!) and then dumped them into a huge septic tank he dug here on Earth. They died a horrible death in that pit and their souls came out and now cling to everyone elses souls on earth are all backed up leaving our spirits all gassy and bloated.
But have no fear... Sciencolonogy is here!
With our cutting edge soul plunging tech we can easily measure the brain to bowel flow of the bodies energies. By reading the life changing book Diarrhetics, written by our esteemed founder Elron Chubbard, you will learn how we can help you plunge your soul clear of these obstructive souls and allow your energies to flow freely. For a small fee of course. Your initiation will come with the first five pages of the book free and a free half roll of our patented toilet paper. If you run out, the free pages of the book should tide you over until you can get to one of our study centers to buy some more. Our study centers are fully stocked with everything you need, including newpapers, magazines and books, all for a nominal fee. Act now because we are having a special deal! You can get one hour in a stall with a door for the price of the ones that come without! Hurry, this offer won't last!
Good luck Belgium (Score:4, Insightful)
I personally disagree with the fundamentals of scientology, I'm Wiccan.
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Good news (Score:5, Insightful)
But we should place more blame on the personal empire builders who are ensuring untrammeled expansion of The Law-Politics-Mass Media axis of evil^Hauthoritarianism than even the criminally motivated cult which has become so good at exploiting our excessive 'authorities'.
Re:Beware the intertubes (Score:5, Informative)
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I can only imagine that that statement was referring to that episode. I'd hope so because I laughed out loud when I read that.
Re:Who is next? (Score:4, Insightful)
The Catholic Church, on the other hand... No so very hard at all [wikipedia.org]
Re:Who is next? (Score:5, Informative)
Sue the Pope? Good luck with that.
That said, Scientology's accused of: "extortion, fraud, unfair trading, violation of privacy laws, and unlawfully practicing medicine." I'm not sure that you can accuse Roman Catholicism (as a whole, discounting fringe groups that aren't practicing core doctrine) of most of those.
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Tell that to Manuel Noriega
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To be fair, he wasn't sued in court. He was extradited for trial on some drug charges after a little war. A state of war, originally declared by Panama, existed between the countries. I will certainly grant you that the timing was WAY too convenient, but it wasn't a suit brought against a foreign head of state.
Re:Who is next? (Score:5, Informative)
Tell that to Manuel Noriega
If you're suggesting that we use military force to depose the Pope and then bring him back to the U.S. to stand trail... well, what you're suggesting is an act of war, just be aware of that.
When it comes to Scientology, however, there's no nation to deal with. They're just a modern, fringe religion. Thus, they have no immunity in a U.S. (nor, I imagine, Belgian) court.
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END COMMUNICATION
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There, fixed that for you.
Please don't quote people and modify the quotation.
I did not, in fact, mean to use the word "cult", as that word is rarely used by any two people to mean the same thing. It can refer to any small religion (which is arguably the correct usage in the modern sense). It can refer to any body of religious practices (this is an archaic usage). It can refer to organizations that use religion purely as cover to perform illegal or immoral acts (Jonestown comes to mind) or otherwise separate membership from the rest
Re:Who is next? (Score:5, Insightful)
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It is unlike them in the content of what is agreed upon - not the divergence. How many different sects of Christianity and Islam are there? Some of them are extremely different from one another and many of them have some really brilliant
Clarification on Unitarians (Score:4, Interesting)
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While I'm willing to grant the status of "religionist" to the membership of the Church of Scientology, the organization itself is a money-making scam that uses the courts to intimidate anyone who dares speak up against it. I'm content to let the average moron who buys in Hubbard's pile of shit go his own way, but the actual organization needs to be taken down a
Re:How rich is the catholic church? (Score:4, Insightful)
The Church most certainly was not founded as a money-making scheme, but rather was the scion of some semi-legendary 1st Century holy man's ramblings. It's wealth was gained, by and large, not by forcing its members to pay big bucks (let's remember, for most of its history, the vast majority of Catholics did not possess anything approaching a disposable income), but rather because it became politically intertwined with the various European principalities, for which it (and the principalities) managed to accrue rather large fortunes in money, treasure and art (in some cases by pillaging other people, notably those poor Eastern Orthodox bastards).
Re:Who is next? (Score:5, Informative)
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"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Th.1:8)
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible has a pretty nice laundry list of all the horrible things in the Bible (and the Quran and the book of Mormon too, by the way). The bottom line is that these books were all wri
Re:Why Is This On Slashdot??!!! (Score:5, Informative)
Geeks have long memories.
Plus, add in the "Scientology uses Technology" angle (debatable, at best...outright laughable more realizstically), and yeah, there's some geek.interest.to.be.had.
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And yet you read this far and replied to a nested post... Slow day at work?
Re:Why Is This On Slashdot??!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why Is This On Slashdot??!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:belgium and freedom of religion (Score:5, Interesting)
Freedom of religion has nothing to do with it (Score:3, Insightful)
While Belgium's treatment of Opus Dei and other 'cults' may be hard, I don't see how this is relevent to Scientology. This action doesn't look to be about the religion. It seems to be about the church itself. If I started a buddhist sect that killed people, conducted violent "mediation" sessions, threatened anyone who left, broke up families and drained peoples bank accounts and did all for profit, I would expect to be prosecuted in any country where the rule of law is respected. And the prosecution wouldn'
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Re:Co$ abuses the legal system (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know who made this particular definition "official" but I'd reject any such definition that classifies EVERY non-christian religion as a "cult". Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. ALL meet your #1 criteria; they reject Jesus Christ.
Why is "cult" in quotes? Only because you use it in the vulgar (common) sense. Follow this link [wikipedia.org] for a better understanding.
For future reference: Double-check anything else your church/pastor tells you. SEE Matthew 24:11, 2 Peter 2:1, Isaiah 9:16, 1 John 4:1