Man Arrested for Refusing to Show Drivers License 1972
NMerriam writes "Michael Righi was arrested in Ohio over the weekend after refusing to show his receipt when leaving Circuit City. When the manger and 'loss prevention' employee physically prevented the vehicle he was a passenger in from leaving the parking lot, he called the police, who arrived, searched his bag and found he hadn't stolen anything. The officer then asked for Michael's driver's license, which he declined to provide since he wasn't operating a motor vehicle. The officer then arrested him, and upon finding out Michael was legally right about not having to provide a license, went ahead and charged him with 'obstructing official business' anyways."
I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Barring a specific law against requiring to show driver's license (and the person in this case has so far found an absence of a law requiring showing the ID, not a law specifying you do not have to show ID), an argument could be made that if a police officer is investigating a potential crime, they have the right to ask for identification from relevant parties.
Now, I'm not saying "an argument could be made" in the sense of "I'm a layman and I'm just talking shit" here -- I'm saying that in the sense of "an argument's already been made to the Supreme Court, and they said it was reasonable." In other words, there's already case law, determined at the highest levels, saying it's reasonable to ask for ID, and it's reasonable to convict someone of impeding the police for refusing to show ID. See HIIBEL v. SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF NEVADA -- http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZS.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Informative)
* If the police ask your name you must give it, but you cannot be compelled to give any supporting documentation.
* The majority also stated that if someone was convicted of a crime as a consequence of giving their name that the issue could be reconsidered under a Fifth Amendment challenge but that such a challenge did not apply in this particular case.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
BTW... (Score:4, Insightful)
You're not required to produce ID, but if you don't you could go to jail for three days!?
This is the same sort of logic that says that being on the sex offender list isn't a punishment, but the authorities can severely limit freedom of movement for someone if his name is on that list.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
That bag contained his private property that he had just purchased. He gave them money for it, it's his, not theirs.
Should he be able to inspect their cash registers after his purchase? After all, they contain money that was his just moments before.
Would you feel differently about the privacy implications if he were leaving Wal*Mart and had just filled his prescription for an STD, or to prevent his frequent diarrhea? Pharmacists are licensed professionals, trained on the privacy aspects of their profession. You're saying that I should have to expose my medical condition to any minimum-wage flunkie who gets curious?
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Interesting)
Indeed it is. Nobody disputes that -- as it is their property, they have the right to tell any person they like to leave their store for any reason (subject to civil rights limitations, since they do claim to be be open to the public).
They DON'T have the right to tell people as they are already leaving, "by the way, as a condition of leaving, we demand that you do X". By the time somebody is leaving, they don't have the option of simply staying for the rest of their lives and dying of old age in Circuit City. They have to leave sooner or later, you can't require them to do things in order to be able to leave and get on with the rest of their lives.
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Insightful)
Like what? People who don't do what they're told just because it's easier, even if they think it's wrong?
The CC manager could have defused the situation at any moment just as easily as the customer (indeed, CC policy almost certainly tells that he should have, and regardless of the legal consequences, this manager is certainly going to get some training). The cop could have searched the bag and said "He didn't steal anything. Have a nice day" and then let everyone get on with their lives.
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you even read the guy's page where he described what happened? If you did I cannot see how you can possibly come to the conclusions that you have. My guess is that instead you have made a knee-jerk reaction based on your vague understanding of what happened and a personal belief that only you are justified in defending yourself, and when others do it, they're just being unreasonable.
There was no disrespect. There was only a guy refusing to be coerced into being searched by a store employee. He tried to walk away from the situation, but he was barred from leaving (illegally) by the store employees. He tried to get the cops to rectify this and instead they arrested him. If he knew that the cops were going to arrest *him* I don't think he would have called them. Maybe he would have, only because he knows that they would be wrong and that in the end it wouldn't be so bad for him, but I nothing about his story suggests that he called the cops specifically so that they would arrest him. I'm guessing he expected the cop to know the law and to apply it, but that's not what happened.
Seriously, rm999, you should read and understand the story you are commenting on before posting.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, according to the summary (TFA being dead now), no one said "sorry man", instead the cop looked for another pretext to charge and arrest him. So lawyers are already in the picture.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Uphill battle... (Score:5, Informative)
Dudley Hiibel in Nevada [wired.com]
John Gilmore & his Supreme Court case [homelandstupidity.us]
Re:Uphill battle... (Score:5, Informative)
Edward Lawson was "detained or arrested on approximately 15 occasions between March 1975 and January 1977 pursuant to Cal. Penal Code Ann. 647(e) (West 1970). 2 Lawson was prosecuted only twice, and was convicted once. The second charge was dismissed"
Edward Lawsons crime was being a black male in an affluent neighborhood and jogging. During these stops he did not have his drivers license on him, or did not feel the need to present his ID upon request. The police would then arrest him for either interfering with a police investigation or PC 647(e)
In particular Edward Lawson, when refusing to show ID, was charged with PC 647(e). His lawyer's contention was that PC 647(e)'s definition of "Identify" was constitutionally vague, and successfully argued his case before the California Supreme Court.
PC 647(e)
Every person who commits any of the following acts is guilty
of disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor:
(e) Who loiters or wanders upon the streets or from place to place
without apparent reason or business and who refuses to identify
himself or herself and to account for his or her presence when
requested by any peace officer so to do, if the surrounding
circumstances would indicate to a reasonable person that the public
safety demands this identification.
In the Supreme Court of California the judges made the following statements and ruling:
Section 647(e), as presently drafted and as construed by the state courts, contains no standard for determining what a suspect has to do in order to satisfy the requirement to provide a "credible and reliable" identification. As such, the statute vests virtually complete discretion in the hands of the police to determine whether the suspect has satisfied the statute and must be permitted to go on his way in the absence of probable cause to arrest. An individual, whom police may think is suspicious but do not have probable cause to believe has committed a crime, is entitled to continue to walk the public streets "only at the whim of any police officer" who happens to stop that individual under 647(e). Shuttlesworth v. City of Birmingham, 382 U.S. 87, 90 (1965). Our concern here is based upon the "potential for arbitrarily suppressing First Amendment liberties . . .
...
We conclude 647(e) is unconstitutionally vague on its face because it encourages arbitrary enforcement by failing to describe with sufficient particularity what a suspect must do in order to satisfy the statute. 10 Accordingly, the judgment of [461 U.S. 352, 362] the Court of Appeals is affirmed, and the case is remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion. It is so ordered.
...
In sum, under the Fourth Amendment, police officers with reasonable suspicion that an individual has committed or is about to commit a crime may detain that individual, using some force if necessary, for the purpose of asking investigative questions. 3 They may ask their questions in a way calculated to obtain an answer. But they may not compel an answer, and they must allow the person to leave after a reasonably brief period of time unless the information they have acquired during the encounter has given them probable cause sufficient to justify an arrest. 4
"Shopkeeper's Privilege" is a whole other issue too. Which was also violated and thus the protections under it to a shopkeeper for unlawful imprisonment are no longer granted.
P.S. IANAL
Re:Uphill battle... (Score:5, Informative)
Some states, such as Washington and California have codified their Common Law and incorporated them into the UCC and PC. California in particular, we have Penal Code 490.5 (f):
Penal Code 490.5 f) (1) A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken merchandise from the merchant's premises.
Since (in California) PC 490.5(f) is in the Penal Code section of law, the definition of "Probable Cause" falls under that of the same Penal Code.
Under PC 490.5(f) a shopkeeper must have "Probable Cause" to believe the person being detained is attempting to, or unlawfully took merchandise from the store.
Since theft is a misdemeanor, and NOT a felony, then "Probable Cause" required to arrest requires direct first hand knowledge of the act or event taking place. i.e. An agent of the store must see personally, or via CCTV the act being committed.
If the theft was a felony (grand theft), then the "Probable Cause" necessary to arrest for a felony only requires a "reasonable doubt".
Regardless, refusal to submit to a search is not grounds for probable cause for either a misdemeanor or a felony. (Fourth Amendment Rights, confirmed numerous times by the US Supreme Court.)
Re:Uphill battle... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ignoring the differences in California and Ohio statutes, probable cause in a shoplifting case requires a good deal more [crimedoctor.com] than "he wouldn't show me a receipt." By and large, in order to detain someone on suspicion of shoplifting you need to see them:
And you have to keep them under continual observation the whole time.
As you mentioned, Mr. Righi's refusal to suck corporate cock is not probable cause.
Having read TFA, it looks to me like the security guard and store manager have unlawfully detained not just Mr. Righi, but his entire family: By blocking the car from moving, the manager and guard trapped his father and father's wife, his brother and two sisters. That's five crimes -- possibly felonies -- committed by the store, on top of whatever crimes they committed against their customer.
If Mr. Righi and his family decide to pursue this, I think the perpetrators and their employers will be begging for the chance to apologize and settle.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
S - See the suspect take goods
C - Conceal the goods
O - Continuously Observe the suspect (to ensure they don't drop or discard the goods)
P/N - Not Pay
E - Attempt to exit
Generally, if you're at an exit and someone tries to prevent you leaving, it's kidnapping (holding you against your will).
My wife is a special officer and two of my good friends are full-timers. They would kick the arse of any shop staff that tried to hold a customer without having observed scope/scone.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
In most places it is plainly illegal for them to detain you based on unwillingness to present a receipt. Meaning, they must have cause to demand a receipt in the first place. On the other hand, stores which are "clubs" can have their own sets of rules which you may unknowingly agree to; Sam's Club being one of them. Obviously the details will differ from state to state. Be warned, even in states where the manager may wind up being arrested and charged with illegal detainmnet and/or kidnapping, assuming a police officier actually knows the law, which is a real crap shoot, it can be a whole different ball of wax at member's clubs when you sign on the bottom line.
I actually know an attorney who makes their extra Mercedes and BMW money by ruthlessly chasing after the store chain, the manager, the employee working the door, and the the city and/or county paying the officer's salary. In some cases he's even able to get the officier fired with cause; depending on the officier's role.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Funny)
Read up on your common law. Simply saying "we have a contract" means NOTHING.
They admitted no supcpician of shoplifting. (Score:4, Informative)
The suspicion must be reasonable and that reasonability varies from state to state. One thing is clear, failure to submit to a voluntary bag search is not legal reason to detain someone.
They had no legal right to detain the OP. They admitted to his face, when asked, that they were not accusing him of shoplifting--they just wanted to see in his bag. They had no right--literally.
Stores do not have police powers! They cannot detain people and force them to submit to store policy! They can only detain people who have committed a crime they have directly witnessed, or, in some states, have **reasonable** cause to believe occurred. To affect a citizen's arrest, you must have witnessed a crime, not merely suspect one may have occurred.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know the legalese, but I would assume that "reasonable suspicion" is defined something like 'evidence that would produce suspicion in a reasonable person'. Leaving aside the huge loophole of how 'reasonable' is defined, let's look at the rest. For it to be 'reasonable suspicion', they would need evidence that would lead them to think he shoplifted. Since he did, in fact, NOT shoplift, there can, by definition, be no evidence that he did shoplift. (You cannot have evidence of a crime that was not comitted.) Therefore, they had NO evidence. No evidence means no 'reasonable suspicion'.
Put in simpler terms: he did not shoplift, therefore they had no evidence that he shopifted, therefore they could not be 'reasonably suspicious' of him.
Until you show a receipt, the status of your merchandise (purchased or non-purchased) is unknown.
Well, considering I just walked 20 feet in a straight line from the CASH REGISTER to the door, I think that's a pretty good indication the items in my bag fall under the catagory of 'purchased'.
So, um, do you have a receipt for EVERY single item in your house? If not, but your own logic, a the store you bought you, oh, letts say 'Microwave'- the store you bought your microwave could bust in your door and take it back because you don't have a receipt for it.
Uh. No. (Score:4, Insightful)
Bull! It's known by the store's representative (the cashier) who checked you out!
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Funny)
Wow, an everyday, practical example of "Schrodinger's cat".
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
IANAL but I seem to recall (from researching it when I owned a storefront):
Actually, this varies per state and per jurisdiction (ie: county, city, town) depending on the specific laws.
Some states require that you must actually walk out the door with a product before you can be accused of attempting to shoplift... inotherwords if I go into a Circuit City and stuff a bunch of CDs in my shirt, until I step through that door, it isnt a crime... other states allow that action that (seems to) constitute intent as attempted shoplifting.
As for jurisdictional borders/property... that varies as well per state. In some states, you cannot try to detain the person once they have left your building... in others you can (as long as they have not left your parking lot)... and in a few I believe you could try to detain them even after that.
Even in states that allow you to detain people suspected of shoplifting in your parking lot, the waters get kind of murky there too... If you are in a shopping center, the parking lot is quite possibly not yours. If you are renting a space that has it's own parking and no rights of egress to others, then it is different. If you own the property and the parking, that too is different...
As for Ohio, I have no clue.... but don't assume Ohio fits a particular circumstance as the laws are quite different in many places.
In New York if I remember correctly, [at least in the county I was a store manager in (not a Circuit City)], we can detain you, and even request to see your receipts or request you let us inspect your bag(s), but cannot forcibly do so... if you refuse, which is your right, then we can detain you until the police arrive who then can search your bag if we sufficiently prove to them/convince them a crime (shoplifting) has occurred.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Since the store most likely shares the parking lot with a number of other merchants, the parking lot is construed as a public thoroughfare (otherwise, the police wouldn't be involved with any traffic accidents therein).
Sorry.... can't have it both ways.
---
Yes... I really do have a 4 digit UserID (and gobs of karma to go with it)... so there...
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Interesting)
On the page pertaining to "false arrest" at that site, there is the following text:
In states with such statutes, theoretically a large retailer like Circuit City would keep abreast of "how far" they can go without risking a lawsuit, and would push the law exactly that far and no further. It seems feasible to me that some states might consider failure to show a receipt to constitute probable cause. Especially since these stores don't make any effort to hide the fact that they inspect receipts when customers exit the store. The assumption is that anyone shopping there is aware of that policy and plans to abide by it, or else they wouldn't be shopping there. So, when someone seeks to avoid having his receipt inspected, it's likely for nefarious reasons.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem here is that's still a presumption of guilt without proof. "No, I don't want to be searched" is not an indicator of "nefarious" thinking (at least, it's not a good or "legal" one). The assumption that "anyone there is aware of that policy" is a faulty one. Who honestly walks into a store and watches the exit carefully as they walk in to see whether they "inspect receipts" or not? Whether a store "hides" that they do it or not is irrelevant; they don't get to detain everyone that refuses to hand over a receipt. As others have said here, a store's agent has to witness a theft or have CCTV footage of the same. I do go out of my way to look for this behavior and I try to avoid these places, but hey, sometimes when there's a good deal, it's worth risking a confrontation (because I still refuse all such "inspection" requests).
I'm stunned that we, as a society, have been even partially "trained" to obediently stop at the exit to "pass inspection." I (and many others like me) make it a point to refuse searches for any reason, from a police officer or otherwise. If I'm willing to tell an officer "no, you may not" if he asks to search my person, my vehicle, or my home, what chance does a store grunt have? :)
To stores that push this "inspection" nonsense, I say "bunk." I paid for my stuff. It's in a bag with your store's logo on it, because your cashier used your cash registers to charge my card (or accept my cash) to pay you for the stuff I've just purchased. Our transaction is done. I'm not interested in "proving" any further that it's paid for. Fix your system. Don't hassle me on my way out. I'm not your problem anyway (since I'm actually paying for stuff).
Folks sometimes raise the issue of membership clubs that make "mandatory receipt inspections" a part of the membership terms, but even that's a wash. The most the store can do is revoke your membership if you refuse to "comply." They don't gain "magic police powers" just because they let you into their club.
You're absolutely right though in that these stores are not ignorant of the law here. Some of their underpaid minions might well be, but the stores know where the lines are. If CC has any brains whatsoever in this one, they'll offer this guy a nice, humble apology, along with a nice & shiny high-value gift card (or a check) to go with it. The officer actually citing the guy for a silly charge like "obstructing an officer" (or whatever phrasing they actually used) is an obvious "uh, I can't find anything to actually charge you with, but you were a jerk, so n'yah!" That's probably gonna cost the city/state a bit of cash, too, sadly.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Funny)
I hate it when stores prevent me from foaming and rising.
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Insightful)
Except in very few instances, they don't.
The obedience you see is a result of very effective social engineering to make people believe they do have the right to search people.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Most states and municipalities have passed laws granting shopkeepers limited privilege to search and detain customers, when they reasonably believe a theft has occurred. List of laws by state [about.com]. Some laws provide the shopkeeper limited immunity from torts arising from detainment.
The criteria which triggers shopkeeper privilege varies, but generally is centered on whether the store's employees witnessed a theft or other suspicious activity that indicates a theft has taken place (e.g. opening packaged goods, placing goods upon one's self, etc.)
The shopkeeper has a certain amount of leeway. In Ohio, the statute is:
2935.041 Detention, arrest of shoplifters; protection of library, museum and archival institution property [about.com], specifically:
(A) A merchant, or his employee or agent, who has probable cause to believe that items offered for sale by a mercantile establishment have been unlawfully taken by a person, may, for the purposes set forth in division (C) of this section, detain the person in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time within the mercantile establishment or its immediate vicinity.
(F) Any peace officer may arrest without a warrant any person that he has probable cause to believe has committed any act described in division (B)(1) or (2) of this section or that he has probable cause to believe has committed an unlawful taking in a mercantile establishment. An arrest under this division shall be made within a reasonable time after the commission of the act or unlawful taking.
As to the officer arresting the dude who wouldn't show his license, that's gonna be up to the jury to decide. Watch for the local prosecutor to drop the charges, as a public conciliatory gesture, sign that the police department is hedging against future lawsuit.
To the folks who say "forgive and forget," that the arrestee wasn't harmed or should drop the case - remember that, in most cases, today, the public entity you've just been arrested by is a municipal corporation, and carries many of the protections of a business corporation. Cities generally act as corporations do - to deny wrongdoing, and to put up a lawyer front. That leaves only one way to combat wrongful arrest: sue. The city won't apologize, that's tantamount to admission of wrongdoing. It is up to the arrestee to assert that wrong was done, and prove it in court.
That's how "The System" works. It's become a paper-based RPG - your lawyer versus their lawyer, knight vs. knight.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Interesting)
Sadly, that was back before I'd known my rights and had grown a backbone to enforce them.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Correct. Every retail store I've ever worked at has a strict no-chase policy. If someone's suspected of shoplifting they can be asked to stop or asked to have their bags searched, but employees are not to do anything else to attempt to stop the person. If you really think unpaid merchandise is walking out of the store, call the cops, try to get the license plate number and let them deal with it (it's their job.).
The store's home office would much rather see $100 in merchandise walk out the door than an employee do something stupid and bring down a major lawsuit. My bet is these employees violated company policy, will almost certainly be fired, and maybe even sued personally (tho, if they're just CC employees, they're probably not worth suing). Either way, Circuit City should be ready to cut a large check to keep this guy from suing.
Re:Upon entering the premises... (Score:4, Insightful)
Lucky for you, that's not how the world actually works. WTF do people think that entering a store makes you the ownser's slave? Sheesh.
Re:Upon entering the premises... (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't believe how few posts here grasp the central legal issue. The case against CC is a side show. Up until the officer verified that nothing was stolen, he probably had the law, or at least the sympathies of the judiciary, behind him. *After* he verified that no crime had originally been committed, it was his snotty-nosed follow-up charge of impeding police procedure that is going to get him into some deep legal hot water, because at that point in time he suspected no crime at all, other than the refusal to show a driver's license, which it's doubtful he had any right to demand, and furthermore, the officer neglected to ask for other information he was entitled to that would have enabled him to conduct those duties without needing the DL in the first place.
This is a case of an officer issuing a "screw you" charge against a citizen, at a point in time where he is suspected of no original crime, for sticking up legal rights he actually holds.
What is it about this that's hard to grasp? For that matter, why don't the police just get it over and done with by charging the constitution for obstruction of law-enforcement activities. It absolutely does obstruct law-enforcement. There's no question about that whatsoever. It turns out that law-enforcement is not the highest ideal of constitutional society, a mundane and disagreeable detail which the police occasionally forget.
Imagine you go to a bank to protest a $50 banking fee that was charged by mistake. The bank manager agrees that the $50 charge was in error. Then you return home and check your bank statement electronically and it now shows a $500 fee for "irregular statement review request".
The cop had an opportunity to drop the matter once the reality of no original crime was apparent to all involved. He didn't. He chose to go snotty. That's the issue here. Not Circuit City groping people's bagaloons. Like, duh.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Interesting)
As to blocking my car in the parking lot, that sounds pretty much like the textbook definition of unlawful detention / kidnapping. Maybe a call to the FBI is in order.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that it is their store means nothing. Think of it this way. Do you have the right to search any bags or packages that someone brings into your home? No. You can ask, and then you can ask that they leave if they refuse to show you, but beyond that, nothing.
Also, refusal to allow one's person or possessions to be search cannot be used as just cause for a search. So says the Supreme Court.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Shopkeeper's Privilege is what allows businesses to search you, or to detain you until the police arrive. It only applies if they have a good reason to suspect that you are shoplifting. Generally speaking, though, the rules protect consumers as much as they protect the stores. The store must maintain visual contact with you at all times, from the time of the suspected shoplifting until you leave. Otherwise, they lose a lot of their power.
You don't lose your rights just because you set foot on private property. However, the store can kick you out and demand that you never return if you don't follow their policies. If you have already purchased your goods, this won't void the purchase.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You understand but misunderstand (Score:5, Informative)
Again the the Ohio statues you understand but don't. Yes, stores can detain someone if they've got a legal reason. Guess what? Refusing a search isn't a legal reason. Refusing a search is NEVER probable cause or reasonable suspicion for a search. This one has been tested in court, the rulings are crystal clear. Refusal to search may be taken as nothing other than that: A refusal to search. It cannot give cause for a search. Otherwise such a refusal would be meaningless.
So again I'll say: Just owning property doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want. This is something you'd do well to understand, as you could get in real trouble with the attitude you have currently. In the case of purely private property you have essentially unlimited exclusionary rights, that is you can decide who is and is not allowed on the property for any reason you like, and change those reasons at any time (public businesses are more restricted, refusing access based on things like race is illegal). However that's all you get to do. You cannot force people to stay and do something they don't want. Doesn't matter if that's your "policy" doesn't matter if you have a sign, doesn't matter if you shout it from the hilltops. Your ownership of the property gives you the right to control access, not the right to force people to do as you please.
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure what that says about the cop but that was his fatal mistake and I suspect it's going to be a very, very expensive one.
No, it's not surprising at all that a cop could be that thick-headedly ignorant of the law. They aren't lawyers. They aren't judges. They're the thugs with the big sticks that make sure the tribe does what the chief decrees.
Re:I smell something... (Score:4, Interesting)
I too thought as you do, but was flabbergasted to find that most of the police officers in my town have master's degrees. More surprisingly, two are lawyers.
Knock me over with a feather.
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I smell something... (Score:5, Interesting)
This case is so obvious and clear that it's a civil liberties lawyers wet dream. Unless the story is missing details such as some state law insiting on ID. It seems TFA made it clear that no such law existed although the officer assumed it did.
Can't resist urge to make puns (Score:5, Funny)
Feel free to pummel this post and/or me(or add your own!)
Somewhere... (Score:5, Funny)
Sigh - we took out dood's website (Score:4, Informative)
Here is another blog that for the moment isn't dead and has the story.
RTFA (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're going to argue against this guy, do yourself a favor: Don't argue the store was within their rights to ask for the receipt. Nobody's arguing with that, and you're a moron who can't fucking read if you think they are. Instead you need to make a case for why they were right to prevent him from leaving, because that, and only that, is what is being contended here.
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Informative)
The traditional way?
The tort of false imprisonment consists of intentionally confining a victim without his consent, by certain means (e.g. physical boundaries, unlawful force, unlawful threats of force). But there is an exception to this, with regard to shoplifting, known as the shopkeeper's privilege. In order for a specific act of detaining someone to qualify, the shopkeeper has to have a reasonable suspicion that the detainee has shoplifted, he can only use a reasonable degree of force and restrain them in a reasonable manner, he can only detain them long enough to carry out a reasonable investigation (probably no longer than about 15 minutes), and it needs to take place on or quite close to the premises (you can't hunt someone down hours or miles later). So long as these requirements are met, the shopkeeper is protected, even if he made a mistake. The important thing is that he acted reasonably.
That's the common law rule; there are statutory forms of the privilege in some jurisdictions, but they're likely pretty similar.
The issue here is this: given that it is not reasonable to suspect every single customer merely because they are exiting the store, but given that it is lawful to ask exiting customers to voluntarily show their receipts, is it reasonable to suspect someone of shoplifting for no other reason whatsoever than that they did not comply with the voluntary showing of their receipt?
Personally, I would think not. While the damages that this guy personally suffered are relatively minor, if this is a matter of policy for the entire store or chain of stores, and if it is a common policy in other stores, then punitive damages might be called for to discourage this store (and others, by means of cautionary example) from having such policies in future.
Full text since site is down: (Score:5, Informative)
funds are raised than are actually needed I will donate the excess to the ACLU. Donations can be made via PayPal to: paypal@michaelrighi.com.
Today was an eventful day. I drove to Cleveland, reunited with my father's side of the family and got arrested. More on that arrested part to come.
For the labor day weekend my father decided to host a small family reunion. My sister flew in from California and I drove in from Pittsburgh to visit my father, his wife and my little brother and sister. Shortly after arriving we packed the whole family into my father's Buick and headed off to the grocery store to buy some ingredients to make monkeybread. (It's my little sister's birthday today and that was her cute/bizare birthday request.)
Next to the grocery store was a Circuit City. (The Brooklyn, Ohio Circuit City to be exact.) Having forgotten that it was my sister's birthday I decided to run in and buy her a last minute gift. I settled on Disney's "Cars" game for the Nintendo Wii. I also needed to purchase a Power Squid surge protector which I paid for separately with my business credit card. As I headed towards the exit doors I passed a gentleman whose name I would later learn is Santura. As I began to walk towards the doors Santura said, "Sir, I need to examine your receipt." I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, "No thank you."
As I walked through the double doors I heard Santura yelling for his manager behind me. My father and the family had the Buick pulled up waiting for me outside the doors to Circuit City. I opened the door and got into the back seat while Santura and his manager, whose name I have since learned is Joe Atha, came running up to the vehicle. I closed the door and as my father was just about to pull away the manager, Joe, yelled for us to stop. Of course I knew what this was about, but I played dumb and pretended that I didn't know what the problem was. I wanted to give Joe the chance to explain what all the fuss was for.
I reopened the door to talk with Joe and at this point Joe positioned his body between the open car door and myself. (I was still seated in the Buick.) Joe placed his left hand on the roof of the car and his right hand on the open car door. I asked Joe if there was a problem. The conversation went something like this:
Me: "Is there a problem?"
Joe: "I need to examine your bag and receipt before letting you leave this parking lot."
Me: "I paid for the contents in this bag. Are you accusing me of stealing?"
Joe: "I'm not accusing you of anything, but I'm allowed by law to look through your bag when you leave."
Me: "Which law states that? Name the law that gives you the right to examine my bag when I leave a Circuit City."
Of course Joe wasn't able to name the law that gives him, a U.S. citizen and Circuit City employee the right to examine anything that I, a U.S. citizen and Circuit City customer am carrying out of the store. I've dealt with these scare tactics at other stores in the past including other Circuit Cities, Best Buys and Guitar Centers. I've always taken the stance that retail stores shouldn't treat their loyal customers as criminals and that customers shouldn't so willingly give up their rights along with their money. Theft sucks and I wish that shoplifters were treated more harshly than they are, but the fact is that I am not a shiplifter shoplifter and shouldn't have to forfeit my civil rights when leaving a store.
I twice asked Joe to back away from the car so that I could close the door. Joe refused. On three occasions I tried to pull the door closed but Joe pushed back on the door with his hip and hands. I then gave Joe three options:
1. "Accuse me of shoplifting and call the pol
Re:Full text since site is down: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Full text since site is down: (Score:4, Insightful)
Store searches cannot be enforced in Texas (Score:5, Informative)
BTW, I'm basically quoting, of all things, a decision by the Texas Supreme Court. Texas is one of the states the unequivocally says you can walk right by the guy at the door with a grin and a wave.
1. Simply entering private property does not give the owner the right to forcibly search you. e.g. You show up to a friend's barbecue. Silverware goes missing. Your friend can ask you to leave. Your friend cannot forcibly search you.
2. A place of business is private property, but you actually LOSE rights as a property owner when you open to the public for business. In my own home, I am allowed to be as racist, sexist and as homophobic as I choose to be. In my own restaurant open to the public, I'd better serve all customers equally.
3. Once the store accepts payment, everything in your bag, including the bag, becomes your property. Money has changed hands, the transaction has been completed. It's your stuff, just as much as your wallet and underwear.
4. The store is well aware of the transaction and the fact that this is now your property. Most store have exits within sight of the cash register, if not in fact FUNNELED through them. We can also prove from the records that the store knows this is now your property.
5. While the Fourth Amendment does not apply to the store, there is absolutely NO law that GIVES them the right to search. See point one. The Fourth Amendment limits the Authority of Government. The store has NO authority to begin with. Saying the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply so the Store can search is like saying traffic cops can't pull over every pretty blonde they see, but since I'm a private citizen I can.
6. While stores do have the right to detain shoplifters, the store had better be ready to supply a videotape or a witness who will testify to the theft.
7. When testifying under oath, the stores admitted some wonderfully interesting points. One, the searches at the door caught virtually no shoplifters, and two, the searches at the door NEVER "helped the customer" by making sure they actually received all the items they paid for. Even if the searches did find "forgotten items" the cashier should have placed in the customer's cart, you can't force someone to accept your help. The stores were forced to admit the searches at the door were for "deterrence," in other words, security theater. Don't shoplift because we're searching you at the door.
Oddly enough, for once in its existence, the Texas Supreme Court made the right call on this one. In the State of Texas, stores cannot detain you at the door for as search. In addition, since you cannot sign away your legal rights in a contract -- you cannot sell yourself into slavery, an employment agreement where you agree you work for less than minimum wage is void -- not even Sam's and Costco can force this as part of the "membership."
The only reason door searches exist in Texas is that people voluntarily put up with them.
Re:Full text since site is down: (Score:5, Interesting)
This is about doing the occasionally hard thing, testing the system to make sure it's working the way it's supposed to.
Because if it ISN'T (and he showed that the system did NOT work correctly), this is the point where it needs to get straightened out, while it's just about searches in an electronics store being illegally enforced by the police. Yes, it's wrong, but people aren't losing lives over it at this stage.
And hey -- that's what we are supposed to do, as citizens of a representative government. We're *supposed* to be double-checking the laws, we're supposed to be scrutinizing our police and government, we're supposed to be doing what we can to stop abuses of the power we give them over us.
Of course, we can always wait until we're personally, drastically harmed, but by then it's generally too late.
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"Impede," for the English impaired (Score:5, Informative)
Declining a request the officer doesn't have the legal right to make is not impeding. If it was, then the cop would get to make up his own little laws on the spot, and that's not correct. Note how the law goes out of its way to define that this has to be an "authorized act." The laws states you need to supply your name and address. He did. The Store had been given TWO different forms of ID for the man. His identity was never in question.
What we have is a store manager, and then a cop, getting WAY out of line, and the cop's offense is the worse one since it was committed under the color of authority. People who make stands over principle are called "patriots" here.
Re:"Impede," for the English impaired (Score:5, Informative)
Circuit City and the Officer F'd up big time (Score:5, Informative)
Security consultant Chris E. McGoey notes:
"A customer can refuse to have their bag checked and simply walk out the door past the bag checker. Hopefully the bag checker has been trained to know that they cannot force anyone to submit to a bag search without cause. This is important because the expectation of the bag checker is that all bag contents have been purchased. The worst thing that could happen is that an aggressive bag checker would forcibly detain or threaten a customer who refused to comply with the voluntary search."
http://www.crimedoctor.com/loss_prevention_3.htm [crimedoctor.com]
Sure, it would have been easier to submit to a search, but stores use the force of conformity as a method of social engineering to get you to comply. A voluntary search isn't voluntary unless you can say no without negative consequences, otherwise the search is **coerced**. The effectiveness of this social engineering will be seen in the comments of people who will say he should have just shown his receipt. These people show their receipts and, based on innate human behavior, think that everyone should behave as they do and that not to do so is to be unreasonable. But where should it stop? If you think the store had a right to make him show a receipt and have his bags searched--contrary to law--why not make him take his shoes off and let them inspect his wallet? They have **just as much right** do do that as search his bags, which is to say, "none."
Not showing your receipt when you don't have to may seem like a trivial gesture but clearly it is not. The OP was within his legal rights and as a result was arrested. Most of us are unwilling to face those kind of consequences to stand up to our everyday rights. He was not. I hope he brings awareness to the over zealous use of searches by private business acting like they are the government with police powers.
As to the arrest for failing to show his license. The OP was the one who called the cops and they arrested **him**, not the store personnel who were unlawfully detaining him in the parking lot! Idaho state law specifically says he just has to identify himself to the officer not show ID, and he isn't required to have an ID on him! To all of those who say he should have been arrested for not showing ID do you think that would also apply if he hadn't been carrying one? If not, why is it any different to arrest him just because he did?
Re:Circuit City and the Officer F'd up big time (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, he knew I know my rights, he saw that the guy drew blood, and he has seen me in the store before buying high-ticket items (although after that episode the most I've spent at that store is $20, and scored advertised freebies on the day-after-thanksgiving loss leader specials) and he made the guy apologise and informed him that he was fired. Calling the police was deemed unnecessary. At that point I did give him the decency of showing him the bag and receipt, only to underscore my point. I then asked why I, a paying customer was harassed and assaulted, while teenagers are walking in, stuffing their bulky jackets, and then walking out unchecked.
Depending on your state, the store does NOT have the right to search your bags without cause, EVEN if clearly posted, unless you pay a fee and sign an agreement containing those terms - such as BJs, Costco, Sam's Club, etc. - when you walk into your store you do not give up your rights as an American citizen. Of course that was the 1990s, and all of that has changed now under Bush's administration; one is presumed guilty until proven innocent since 09/11.
Also, regarding drivers' license: depending on your state you may not EVER have to hand it to a police officer. That is the case here; I was once pulled over for passing in a passing zone - LEGALLY, in my Corvette. There was PLENTY of room to pass, but I did it uphill. An officer I saw two cars behind (I saw him behind before I passed - I thought nothing of it because it was a legal passing zone) pulled me over. He was a rookie - he asked for my license and registration. I SHOWED them to him. He asked me to hand them to and I told him I will not; it is my right to refuse to hand it to him, but I DO have to show it to him upon request if I am a driver and pulled over, so I am obliging to the law and showing it to him. He then asked if I knew why I pulled him over, so I said "I presume speeding, however, while passing I did not exceed the speed limit. As you know, that woman was hindering the flow of traffic, driving more than 10 under." Well, he proceeded to inform me he pulled me over because he does not think that passing zones should be legal, and that were I driving a Ford Escort, or even the Ford Crown Vic he was driving, I would not have made it passing uphill. I then entered smartass mode and replied "Well, this car isn't a clown vic, is it? I regret to inform you that despite your preferences, passing zones are legal, so write me up, and then you can follow me to the station a half mile down the road and we'll have a nice long chat with your supervisor." Well, of course he did not write me up, and saw that I had a spotless driving record for the previous 7 years (except for a "fix it" tag because I was pulled over in an MR2 I refused to get inspected - I now get my cars inspected because it has become a moving violation, not just a fix it tag and small fine). I've seen him around town since then and he's actually been downright friendly. I think he was just having a bad day or something, or he was gung-ho since he was a rookie, but I had
Re:Circuit City and the Officer F'd up big time (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Circuit City and the Officer F'd up big time (Score:4, Informative)
No, you really can. Contracts are not inviolate or holy or anything; if either side wants to breech a contract at any time, then they are always absolutely free to do so. There might be some sort of damages to pay to the other side, but typically that's all. Indeed, the legal system encourages parties to breech if, taking into consideration the effects of it, it is sensible to do so. It's not viewed as bad or worthy of punishment or anything.
Could the store win in court on the argument that breech is reasonable grounds to invoke the shopkeeper's privilege? Personally, I would doubt it.
Certainly, your contractual relationship with them would be over, so they would treat you as any other non-member and not let you shop there. And they could likely refuse to let you set up a new contract with them. But that's not really interesting, and if you're going to breech, you ought to weigh which outcome (consenting and continuing to shop there, or not consenting and not coming back) is better for you.
In Soviet Russia... (Score:4, Interesting)
1. You find an item that you want to buy. Sometimes it's behind the counter, so you can't really reach it, only ogle it from afar.
2. You go to the cashier's booth and pay for the item. The cashier gives you a check with the sum you paid written on it.
3. You go back to the counter and give the check to the salesperson, who will then give you the item.
Horrible, at least from the point of view of client-friendliness, but pretty effective against shoplifting. No, I'm not at all advocating this system -- hell, if some store tried it in America, they'd be out of business by mid-afternoon. I'm just saying that if big chains are that concerned with theft-prevention, then that's the only relatively effective way to solve the problem.
Amazing screw up (Score:5, Interesting)
The Circuit City employee was not accusing this fellow of stealing anything. He was simply under the mistaken impression that he could force a customer to comply with a search. What the cop did was an unreasonable seizure, an illegal arrest. What the employee did was false imprisonment. It doesn't matter what the Ohio legislature says about having to show your ID when a cop asks. A legislature cannot override the Federal Constitution. Yes, both the cop, the store employee and the store could be liable.
I think the guy should sue everyone involved. It has come to be a serious annoyance that every store thinks they can detain you because you had the gall to purchase something from them. One way to educate people is to have a nice fat lawsuit. If Circuit City wants to avoid all the bad publicity this would generate, they can settle for a nice fat sum.
Conspiracy? (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it hard to believe that there are so many people out there who would willingly bend over and spread their cheeks for anyone in authority who asks for whatever reason. That's such a scary thought, that I'm _hoping_ (and praying, for the future of this country) that it's just a small group of rabble-rousers who are positing those comments.
Wowza.. (Score:4, Informative)
W
A better way... (Score:5, Insightful)
the consequences of not showing your license (Score:5, Insightful)
I am a "privacy nut", but I have long stopped refusing to show identification (or in one case, provide a social security number for a bicycling-on-the-sidewalk ticket) to police officers. It is not worth the hassle. You will get caught up in a massive legal system. The only effective means to prevent this kind of completely illigitmate search/detention is to get involved at the political level. The bare facts of the Constitution in this case will not help you. This is in contrast to first-amendment type things, which the courts remain pretty firmly in favor on, and also tend to attract a great deal more press attention and public sympathy beyond
Circuit City, on the other hand: obviously, no kind of political action will change that. If I had "ubersmarts" in a stressful moment, I would have done exactly as this man did, but then showed my ID to the police officer. The problem, and
Again, just to be clear: I fully support this man's decisions. They are not the decisions I would have made, but they are legitimate, noble and American.
Write Circuit City!!! This happened to me too! (Score:4, Interesting)
Best Buy in Lincoln Park, IL did something like this to me once. I waited 40 minutes in line to return a home theater kit (big box w/ many parts) Because the dimwit teenager at the door didn't give me a sticker, one of the assistant managers (think Farva from SuperTroopers) seized my box and told me that I'd be arrested for shoplifting. I presented them with my receipt and he told me "stop playing games." I tried calmly explaining many times that I've been waiting in line to return this crappy home theater unit, but he accused me of buying one the day before, walking into the store w/ nothing but the receipt, taking one (apparently opening & unwrapping the 20+ components, untying the 10 cables or so, putting batteries in the remote, etc), and trying to return the unbought, yet opened, one. I tried to be nice and tell him that there was a mixup and explained to him that when I walked in I went from the door to the customer service line and have been patiently waiting to return the defective home theater system (amp, dvd player, + 5 speakers & cables) the entire time. He kept accusing me of playing "mind games," to quote him. After awhile, I told him to check his surveillance tapes and he told me he was unable to do so. Eventually, I called 911 on them and the police officers took my side and told them to either demonstrate that I was shoplifting or to handle my return.
In the end, they gave me a crappy $50 gift card and dirty looks. The manager kept using that "there's a lot of thieves this time of year" crap and talking to me like I was a criminal who just got away with stealing their merchandise. I regret not telling him off and telling him to focus on the thieves and not harassing their legitimate customers in the most inept way possible (I was more concerned about getting back to work since I did this on my lunch break). I did nothing wrong. I did nothing unusual. I even was wearing business causal clothes (I was in my late 20s, working at a yuppie job, behaving like a typical Lincoln Park yuppie). I don't care about their mistake. I'm really angry at their arrogance and ineptitude in handling the situation. I even sympathize with them not wanting their stuff stolen. However, if you're going to accuse me of stealing, at least do the effort to determine if I'm actually stealing. The store manager, the one who talked to me like I was a master thief who just pulled off another caper, kept ranting about the hid who was supposed to put a sticker on my box, who wasn't at his desk when I walked in, blaming the whole thing on him.
I called their corporate office and let them know. Last I heard, the assistant manager was fired. I don't wish for anyone to go through what I went through.
Here are some actual store rules... (Score:5, Informative)
http://targetfiling.blogspot.com/2007/05/target-a
The person arrested here did NOT break the law, and should not have been arrested.
The store manager and Asset Protection person DID break the law, and the police officer seriously bent it if not actually breaking it.
I doubt a city attorney will choose to prosecute the person arrested.
--
Tomas
Re:Open and Shut Case of Police Harrasment (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: Why they look at the dumb receipt (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not to prevent shoplifting. It's to prevent theft with employee collusion. If you and the cashier were accomplices, you could grab a $500 product and a $5 product, get in the right line, only get the the $5 one rung up, and walk off with the $500 one perfectly calmly in plain sight. It sounds dumb, but I've heard that's the real reason they go through the whole receipt bullshit. The employees are basically informing on each other.
Re: Why they look at the dumb receipt (Score:4, Interesting)
It would suck to work somewhere where management assumes all employees are thieves... now the next question is... how corruptable is the loss prevention fellow...
Re: Why they look at the dumb receipt (Score:5, Funny)
He's probably making minimum wage, maybe slightly more, so I imagine he's not corruptible at all.
Re:Open and Shut Case of Police Harrasment (Score:5, Funny)
The goods are yours, but who owns the bag? I've never seen the bag show up on the receipt, nor have I been charged for it, so presumably it is their bag, which I have possession of with their permission. I wonder if a good lawyer for a store could use this to justify searching the bag?
Re:It almost sounds like an urban legend (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Open and Shut Case of Police Harrasment (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean think: Suppose that it was. Well then the police would never not be able to search you. They'd ask "Can we search your person/car/house/whatever?" If you say yes, you've granted consent so they are fine. If you say no, then they'd just say "Well he said no, that's probable cause to suspect he's doing something wrong so we can search."
So refusal of a search cannot be taken for anything other than what it is. Otherwise there would be no ability to refuse a search, ever.
Also, look up the standard of probably cause, you'll find that it is actually fairly high. "I think it probably happened," or "That guy looks suspicious," and so on do NOT give probably cause.
Re:Open and Shut Case of Police Harrasment (Score:5, Insightful)
It is failing, but because it's failing gradually and has taken several lifetimes to get this way, each generation grows up used to "the way things are" (Social Security vote-buying, drug asset forfeiture laws that don't require an arrest or for charges to be brought, warrentless domestic surveillance) and may lament the freedoms lost but do not see the inevitability of the police state. B
Because of the difficulty of a massive takeover and the resistence and uprisings it would cause, freedom is almost never taken away all at once. Instead, it's eroded gradually, little bit by little tiny bit (always "for the children", "for your safety", "to stop terrorists", "to fight [some] drugs"), which suits the statists because it is never given back, making the resulting police state inevitable.
What you're really dealing with here is an almost religious, always unstated belief that the artificial construct of the nation, as personified by state power, is like a massive all-powerful organism and the individuals of which it is composed are akin to cells in the body in the sense that any one of them is expendable and insignificant and they only matter in large numbers. This mentality has become deeply established in the USA, which is why in the news, no crime ever happens to a person - it happens to a Black person, or a White person, or an Asian person, or a woman, or a senior citizen, etc because the group identity has become more significant than the individual identity. This is useful for the goal of the statists, since each group has perceived collective interests in large enough numbers to influence the politics of the State. This is how you dehumanize people and turn them into a label, because it's no longer the mind, body, and soul of an individual who has hopes and dreams and feels pain like you do but just another faceless organization that can only be understood as an abstraction.
Of course you also need to have a war of some kind going on to keep the public in a fearful state, since this is the best way to discourage rational thought and promote a groupthink "pack animal" situation. War on poverty, war on (some) drugs, war on crime, war on terror, war on obesity, etc. are how you get around that pesky Bill of Rights. For example, consider the 4th Amendment, which states:
Because of the War on (some) Drugs, it is now considered acceptable for the police to seize property without bothering to arrest anyone or charge them with any crime (reference [isil.org]). Thanks to the War on Terror, it is now considered acceptable for the feds to intercept communications and execute wiretaps without all that hassle of demonstrating probable cause and obtaining a warrant. Both of these practices, along with the entire idea of fighting an undeclared "war" against a battle tactic (terrorism is a particularly despicable form of guerilla warfare), would have been considered absolutely absurd things that would never happen here 100
Re:He will be fouhd guilty of the charge (Score:5, Insightful)
You might want to read his blog. He IS such a person.
Oh, they chose the wrong man to mess with..
Blame the training (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I have a hard time sympathizing (Score:5, Insightful)
Er, except he's right and he isn't dead! If this **isn't** a big deal then it never would have resulted in his unlawful detention and arrest.
Now this clearly does not rise to the importance of fighting for suffrage and civil rights, but your boss would have dismissed those fights as well. He would have told Rosa Parks that she'd be right but she'd be dead! That or you are miss representing your boss's opinion...
Re:Oh my god (Score:5, Informative)
He called police because he was being unlawfully detained. If somebody is being detained against their will and they call the police to remedy the situation, I fail how to see how that is obstructing official business. That is what the police are there for.
The good old fashioned way: by observing the thief steal merchandise. If you didn't see him steal anything, you have no reason to believe that he has. Treating all your customers as thieves is not good for business -- just ask the RIAA.
No, he clearly DID identify himself, he just refused to show a drivers license because he was not driving. Ohio state law quite specifically states you do not have to provide a drivers license to a police officer if you are not driving.
Re:YOU DO have to show your license (Score:5, Insightful)
And yes, even though you don't drive, you MUST have a state ID with you at all times
I don't have an ID from your state (or any US state). Does that mean I'm committing an offence the minute I enter it ?
How do tourists / visitors survive - or do you just not allow them ?
Re:There's such a thing as choosing your battles. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's always easier to just go to the back of the bus, and it's always easier to wait until you're actually being forced into the showers before objecting.