Credit Industry Opposes Anti-ID Theft Method 434
athloi alerts us to an opinion piece running in USA Today on the backlash against an effective tool to fight identity theft. The big three credit bureaus don't like the numerous state laws that have been passed requiring them to give consumers a simple way to freeze their credit. Watch for a push at the federal level to get a watered-down statute that pre-empts state laws. "Lawmakers across the country — pushed by consumer advocacy groups — ... have passed laws that allow consumers to freeze their credit, a surefire way to prevent thieves from opening new accounts or obtaining a mortgage in a consumer's name. Under a freeze, a consumer cuts off all access to his credit report and score, even his own. All lenders require that information, so no one can borrow money in the consumer's name until he or she lifts the freeze. It's simple, and it works. So, of course, it's under threat from the Consumer Data Industry Association, which represents the Big Three credit bureaus. They make millions gathering and selling consumer data. Freezes cut into that business."
Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Informative)
Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Hawaii, Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, New York, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming
It also lists fees and such.
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, I plan to get my credit locked up anyway. Not that I'm at risk for anything at the moment... I'm not rich, my credit's not great and after I paid off my last car, I don't deal much in debt financing any longer. After going mostly cash-only, I find myself rather free and I've got more money in the bank than I've ever had. (I think between a savings account and a credit account, I think most people will agree which is more better in the long run.) Perhaps I'll stop getting all those damned credit card offers in the mail as well!
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, you know, if you say had an attache case in your car that had a copy of your taxes. Then suddenly you had to go inside the house for a minute. Then you come back out and the bag is gone, voila, you're a victim of identity theft. All you need is a police report that describes said events.
Of course, I'm not advocating filing a false police report because that is a crime.
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Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Interesting)
How about this: Any lender that opens a line of credit must PROVE that the person they say they opened it for actually opened it.
That doesn't mean you can just say, "Well, I have this social security number, date of birth, and a name - that's enough right?"
I'm talking "You want credit? Let me get you to fill out this application and have it notarized. Otherwise, no credit for you."
Anyone lender who can't PROVE they have the persons permission CAN NOT LEGALLY post any negative credit information anywhere and can not try to collect on any debts supposedly owed.
Does anyone really think it is ok to just allow lenders to defame the name and credit history of anyone unlucky enough to have their SSN stolen?
The blame for stolen identities falls SQUARELY in the hands of those who allow those stolen identities to be used.
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Insightful)
Does anyone really think it is ok to just allow lenders to defame the name and credit history of anyone unlucky enough to have their SSN stolen?
More to the point, our credit heavy soceity has allowed less then honest companies to blackmail consumers that have legitimate business disputes by threatening to sour your credit report. In the old days if you had an honest dispute with a company and refused to pay them they could sue you and both sides would get their day in court. Now they can just insert an item into your credit file, wait until you are denied employment/that mortgage/security clearance/etc/etc and know that you will pay up because they basically have you by the balls.
No due process of law and the burden of proof is on the consumer to prove that the derogatory information is false -- not on the company to prove that it's true.
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The truth, a
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Informative)
Incorrect.
I work for a DoD contractor and possess a security clearance. One of my coworkers lost a clearance based solely on filing for personal bankruptcy protection. It had nothing to do with a "pattern of abuse"; legitimate personal circumstances forced this person to make that decision.
Security clearances are denied or revoked based on risk to the government. Poor credit puts you in a high-risk group because (so the theory goes), you are more vulnerable to take money in exchange for classified information. And individual situations are rarely taken into account - if your credit report fits the profile for vulnerability, you don't get a clearance.
A credit report doesn't just affect your ability to get a loan. In some fields, bad credit (valid or not) can severely limit your employment options. Yet another reason to rebalance the laws in favor of the consumers.
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Who needs Credit Cards? What Do I care if they offer me 19.9% or 10 points over the highest prime rate listed in a three month period in the midwest edition of the wall street journal? Live with in your means and it is not an issue!
As to car insurance, the only time the premiums go up is if they are extending you credit. If you pay monthly on you insurance, sure the amount you pay will go up. If you pay for the policy up front (6 months at a time), it goes down.
The point is that you do not
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:4, Insightful)
Make the accumulation of wealth a priority and abandon status symbols entirely and it won't take too many years before credit doesn't matter much. Worked for me, and I was sadly in
Not to disagree of course with the original point that the burden of proof of identity belongs with the lender.
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Insightful)
You can live entirely within your means, never using (or using and paying in full) a credit card for anything and still wind up with a shitty credit score/report. All it takes is one major illness while having crappy or no medical insurance. Medical problems are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States. Other things (natural disasters, unemployment, divorce, bad investments, etc, etc) can also cause your financial situation to become untenable without ever trying to live beyond your means.
And while it's illegal for an employer to fire you because of a past bankruptcy, it's not illegal for them to fire you based upon derogatory information (i.e: missed payments) on your credit report. Nice catch-22 there, isn't it? Name one person that has filed bankruptcy who doesn't have other derogatory information on their credit report....
That's good advice for anybody. But it's a myth that most people are driven to financial ruin by trying to live beyond their means.
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Insightful)
Here is the problem with your argument; I have ALWAYS lived in my means! From the first job to my current job. When I was making $3.35 an hour and working 80 hours a week to now. If you live in your means you do not need credit. I did not say it was easy. You will have to make sacrifices and give up some stuff, but in the long run you will be better for it.
The first thing is to get a place to live that costs no more that 1/4 your wage! Can't afford an apartment by your self, get a room mate! Cut out the extras, going to the movies, eating out, beer, etc. Make a budget and stick with it!
Here is a good piece of advice, buy an older used car and pay cash for it. Then take $100 or $200 a month that you would spend on a car payment and put it in a savings account. In 2 to 3 years when the car dies you'll have $2400 to $3600 to buy another used car. Around here that will get you a car that is in GREAT shape. Now you are not paying the interest for the loan, the bank is paying you interest while you save the money for a car!
Am I on easy street? You tell me, For the last several years I have made $39,000 a year and managed to provide for a family of 4! House, cars (2), food, etc. I am the only provider, my wife does not work outside the home (meaning she tends to the house and does not add to the income) I have done all this with out living out side my means and with out gaining any real debt. I have a CC that I put $1000 on and did not pay. This is the only outstanding debt and was because the credit reporting agencies would not lock by account and the company I worked for put my info on the public internet. Make the report look bad and I am not a target for ID theft.
You just need to learn to manage money and be froogle with what you have.
I still have money to spend, invest, or do what I want with. If I am on easy street it is only because I worked my A** of getting here!
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The only way to get "bad" credit is to be fiscally irresponsible.
That's false. As far back as 1890 it was known, per census, that average household debt was nearly double average household income. As of 1998 average debt was still $200 less than average income. This isn't a fiscally irresponsible problem--this is a system of debt which has been deliberately allowed to continue.
Unless you would like to suggest that it's human nature, across a national population, and across over 100 years (documented) to be "fiscally irresponsible" at which point then it again becomes
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This is because if he looked at ALL the facts,
You mean the facts that show that the US government has been $73 million in debt since its inception and hasn't been out of debt once since? How about the fact that the debt does nothing but increase over the years? No. We couldn't have that fact. It's too obvious.
Classical conspiracy-theorist fact-finding
Such as the fact that the easiest money ever made is interest paid on a $73 million dollar debt over the course of 200 years?
Look. In 1890 the average household was in debt twice what they made. 870/475 (about 400 dollars short) or somethi
Re:Credit BS = Karma (Score:5, Informative)
Obviously you've never had to deal with the fallout from a bad credit file. Yes, on the surface it appears that the law is written in the consumers favor. Go read some credit repair boards and see how well that works out in practice. See how the data providers(credit card companies) just "verify" any dispute that comes down without doing actual research. See how the credit reporting agencies outright refuse to follow the law (try getting them to do a proper procedures request).
The entire industry is set up in favor of their customers (the data providers and creditors), not the consumers whose lives they ruin. The existing laws are either too weak or are just ignored outright.
Re:Credit BS = Karma (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem isn't that consumers don't have appropriate protections and recourse, its that consumers aren't aware of the laws they are protected by, and then when everyone around them starts saying "your screwed...theres nothing you can do", they tend to just assume everyone is right and then they suck it up and live with the consequences.
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If we happen to be in the market to some property in the same area and both make an offer for the same one and I know that you are going to need a loan to buy what would it take for me to put a freeze on your credit and leave you unable to unfreeze it?
Or I identity theft you then freeze your credit. Plenty of room for abuse either way.
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, most freeze laws (at least the one in New York, which I'm most familiar with) do not stop the pre-approval offers that are clogging your mailbox. The most effective way to do this is to "opt-out" with all four CRAs. You can do that here [optoutprescreen.com]. A five year opt-out is completely online. For a permanent one you need to sign a letter and mail it back to them. This is what I did.
Regardless of whether or not you freeze your credit (not everybody can) everybody should do this. Opt-out with all four agencies and follow up with them a few months later to make sure they actually did it. Three (Trans Union, Equifax, Innovis) processed it properly for me but Experian never did until I followed up with them.
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but but but they have an ssl cert! it must be safe!
Re:Credit Freeze = Relief (Score:5, Interesting)
This got an insightful mod? Give me a fucking break. Yes, I've been on /. for four years, have over 2,000 posts and good karma but I'm trying to provide a link so I can scam people's personal information! That must be it!
You don't trust the site I linked? Go look at this one [ftc.gov] from the FTC then. It gives you a number (888-5-OPTOUT) to call if you'd rather do that then fill out the online form. It also links to a website [optoutprescreen.com], which is (surprise, surprise) the same one that I provided.
Unless you think the FTC is providing you with a link to a phishing site I really don't see what the problem is.
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Another happy side-effect of freezing your credit: No snail-mail spam about preapproved credit offers. It's saved me much over the last year in time devoted to shredding.
Not quite - I followed the links. For us here in MN...
Does freezing my file mean that I won't receive pre-approved credit offers?
No. You can stop the pre-approved credit offers by calling 888-5OPTOUT (888-567-8688). Or you can do this online at www.optoutprescreen.com. This will stop most of the offers, the ones that go through the credit
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1-888-5-OPTOUT is an automated service run jointly by the four main credit bureaus. With one phone call you can opt out of pre-screened mailings from all four bureaus.
Useless Freeze? (Score:5, Interesting)
Thief: I would like to borrow $100,000 from Knave's account please.
Clueless Customer Rep: Sorry sir, Knave has put a freeze on the account.
Thief: I see...
(4 minutes later, with a different clueless customer rep)
Thief: Knave here, I would like to remove the freeze on my account, I'm buying myself a sweet car.
Clueless Customer Rep: Very good sir, freeze ovah.
Thief: Thanks!
What am I missing?
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Thief: Knave here, I would like to remove the freeze on my account, I'm buying myself a sweet car.
Clueless Customer Rep: Very good sir. Please enter your pin number to lift the freeze.
Thief: Um, I just remembered I need to see a man about a horse. BRB.
(P.S. I know what PIN stands for and that I don't need the word number there, but that is what the CR would say. They are clueles
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Re:Useless Freeze? (Score:4, Funny)
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I have and, although I still get the occasional offer from my bank and stock broker, it has reduced the amount of credit card spam a lot.
naturally... (Score:2, Insightful)
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Re:naturally... (Score:5, Informative)
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I'd highly recommend Maxed Out [netflix.com]. It's on Netflix's "Watch Now" so you can... uh... watch it now.
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If one credit card is a normal credit card, and the other is "uber-safe for online purchases", which one do you think the average person is going to use, and run up huge debts, with?
stolen identity (Score:3, Insightful)
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You mean like the way I was never supposed to have to reveal my social security number in order to prove my identity?
It's cheaper (Score:4, Insightful)
Which is why they usually don't do anything to prevent it.
Remember the guy who tore up his credit card entry form like they said to, then taped it back together, put in an old address, and a different phone number, and still got a credit card in his name?
Yeah, the companies know how to prevent all this stuff, just it would cost more money than they lose by just eating the costs.
It's cheaper because they dump it on the merchant. (Score:2)
They don't care about that level of fraud. They'll just sell the debt to a collection agency and you'll end up fighting the collection agency to get your credit report fixed.
And that's for anything that they just didn't charge back to the merchants.
Your credit should be frozen BY DEFAULT.
The credit reporting agencies should send you a form letter EVERY SINGLE TIME anyone tries to access your info. And just include the cost of that processing in the fee they charge.
The
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In other words, if you have good credit, you really don't want to get rid of the idea entirely, if it can be made to function as it's supposed to.
Similarly, insurance companies must average over all of their customers. Evaluating the risk allows them to charge more appropriate rates
Freezes cut into their business? (Score:3, Insightful)
The bottom line is that the Big Three credit reporting agencies are sleezebags. If they had their way, they'd have it so that anyone can put anything in your credit file they like, and anyone can request any info they like any time. They don't want you to have any control over what's in your credit file, because ultimately that is the source of their power!
Screw this. I'm gonna go live off the grid somewhere.
Lost profit (Score:2)
Re:Freezes cut into their business? (Score:4, Informative)
They sell solicitation mailing lists to credit card companies who specify the parameters of the consumer they're most trying to reach (i.e. Visa might want to market to current AmEx card holders with household incomes above $75,000, no late payments in the last year, and living on the eastern seaboard). That's a major source of additional income for them.
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No such thing. If the banks don't get you, the tax man certainly will.
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simple really. They sell your name and address, ever wonder how those preapproved mailers get to your house ? equifax makes a nice dollar from selling the names of different tiers of people. By allowing people to freeze their credit those names can no longer be sold or used.
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Re:Freezes cut into their business? (Score:5, Informative)
I got my credit report yesterday actually (from the real site: Annualcreditreport.com NOT the scam site: freecreditreport.com)
My credit report shows 12 promotional inquiries by businesses wishing to extend me pre-approved cards between january and may. I'm sure they paid a fee to the credit agency each time. Freezing my credit might turnoff that revenue stream.
You're kidding, right ? (Score:2)
So all that's needed is a 4 digit number to bypass the freeze ?
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Hopefully, its not the same four digit WEP number on my wireless router or luggage.
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2) After it fails, calmly back out of the situation to try to unlock the freeze.
3) Attempt to provide a made-up 4-digit number, one of 10,000 possible combinations.
4) ???
5) Profit
It's not like the four digit number is the last four digits of your credit card or the last four digits of you social security number (I hope, unless you're stupid). Plus, making it short means virtually anyone can memorize it and not keep a paper copy sitt
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People only lock things when they've got somthing to hide.
Why rob their neighbor if you know they don't have anything ?
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Maybe if people were rational, and had the same internal cost/benefit values attached to the convenience of leaving their homes unsecured and the risk of loss, that might be the case. Thing is, people evaluate that differently; I know people who have quite nice toys and leave their doors habitually unlocked, and people who don't have all that much that's valuable but are extremely cautious about home security. In practice, the correlation you describ
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Actually, the dog I envisioned wasn't even a dobie or a rottweiler or whatever you might consider a "guard dog". I was actually picturing a rat terrier - massive bark but can't do more than slobber you to death. Still very effective in keeping burglars out.
Debt free is the way to be. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Because what works for you should obviously work for everyone else.
Who is smarter? The guy who blows all his cash on a sofa? Or the guy who lets his available cash earn interest while he pays off the sofa interest free for a year?
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Ideally, the latter option is preferable. What happens, however, if some emergency (lay-off, medical, etc.) causes a money crunch? Both of those guys are screwed. There is a third, much better option: the guy that sits on his current junky sofa while he saves up the money to purchase a new sofa while still leaving his rainy-day fund intact.
Never p
MOD PARENT UP! (Score:2)
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eh? my car loan is at something like 2.9%. the return on my investments is about 13%. i only buy stuff on credit that i can afford. that is, pay off tomorrow. so i could either earn 13% compounding interest on what i would have paid outright for my car, or pay cash for the car and save the 2.9% in interest on the price of the car and lose out on the 13% interest on investing that money instead? make sense? your statement makes little sense.
now, if s
Carry Trade (Score:2)
Unfortunately the catch is by doing so you are accepting the risk that your investment will continue to earn 13% in the future. It may be an appropriate strategy, right up until your investment earnings minus taxes is less than loan interest. This takes management and eff
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No it's not - If you're a responsible borrower you can profit handily from these deals. Need $5000 worth of furniture? Get it now on a 'pay later' plan, and put the $5000 in an account bearing interest. You get the profit and when the furniture payment's due, just pay it. Get a "borrow at 1% interest!" offer in the mail? Borrow the money, invest it in something safe, pay it off a day before it starts charging interest and pocket the profits. You
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Look credit is an awesome thing, you just have to use it responsibly. I buy everything on credit, but haven't carried a balance for a couple of years. When I did carry a balance, most of that was accrued during college, or in the first six months in the real world. So, basically while in college I got to bank against my future earnings, an when I graduated, I got to get nice furniture
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I think it's morally reprehensible to not separate an idiot from their money. If you don't get them to give it to you, they're just going to give it to someone else.
Now, I don't support fraudulent credit practices. But it's not like it's a big secret what the interest rates on credit cards are. If you don't want to pay the interest rate on a loan - whether it be mortgage, auto, or credit card, then DON'T TAKE OUT THE LOAN!
The
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Where do I sign up (Score:2)
Which states? (Score:2)
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"State Security Freeze Laws"
http://www.consumersunion.org/campaigns/learn_mor
Credit Reporters (Score:4, Informative)
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There's no escape from the credit system, you should be entitled to quite a big payout, and I think it needs to happen.
Re:Credit Reporters (Score:5, Informative)
I had a near miss with identity theft about six years ago. The mortgage broker that sold us our house (we knew it was him, just could find him or prove it) stole our file along with a bunch of files from other people. We would check out mail to find credit card bills that were torn open, rearranged, then haphazardly stuffed back into the envelopes. We finally figured out what was happening when we got a rejection letter for a small business loan for $18,000 that was declined for a technical reason. He put my birthday down as something like 1905 for some reason. All the other info was dead on. When I called the bank, they apologized for turning me down and asked me to come in and fix the problem to get the loan.
He must have been a novice because he made a number of other failed attempts. We ended up putting this fraud alert on our credit credit reports. Our experience has been hit or miss. For example, my wife walked into a target and spent several hundred dollars. The offered a 10% discount for applying for a credit card. She told them it would automatically deny us because if the fraud alert, but they told her she would get the discount anyway. The result: $10,000 limit on the spot with a little note that would allow her to max the card there in the store that day. Home depot gave me a little trouble though. The person behind the counter abruptly handed me the phone. The person on the phone said, "Do you know why I'm talking to you?" I told her about the fraud alert. Result: $5000 limit on the spot. At least it wasn't as bad as target. We bought a car no questions asked. Getting a cell phone contract from sprint was hell however. They kept canceling the order. The third attempt worked and they did as they should have.
CDIA != Credit Card Companies (Score:3, Informative)
* Commercial Banks
* Retail Stores
* Bankcard Issuers
* Retail Credit Card Issuers
* Credit Unions
* Mortgage Brokers
* Real Estate Agencies
* Nonbank Banks [wtf?]
* Savings and Loan Institutions
So CDIA is the credit reporting agencies, plus (most likely) ChoicePoint and Axciom and other datamining privacy haters. But not credit card companies or lenders, or anyone who loses money when identities are stolen.
Expect the Usual (Score:3, Insightful)
And this surprises anybody? (Score:5, Insightful)
Helping people get more into debt is what these guys do. Why would they be remotely in favour of a measure that (along with helping to reduce the likelyhood of credit-related fraud) would allow you to stop yourself from spending money that you don't have and thus digging yourself further into the hole that they want you to live your life in.
Remember, when these guys say credit they mean debt.
B-b-b-but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, not personal information, you say? Just the ones and zeroes that we want access to, not the ones and zeroes that they want access to?
The information age is a double-edged sword. Just as we can make better purchasing decisions based on easily aggregated information, companies can make better lending/purchasing decisions based on easily aggregated information. Is there a correlation between credit scores and suitabilty as borrowers or tenants? Sure. Why should we fault the companies that operate more efficiently because they take that into consideration? And FWIW, your credit history (aside from bankruptcies) can be rebuilt in less than seven years.
And no, it's not impossible to live without credit, you just need to make some sacrifices. It's a question of how much you value the privacy of information you choose to make public.
What Torques Me.. (Score:5, Interesting)
True case in point: My sister worked for a bank that did mortgage and consumer lending. When they pulled an applicant's credit record, that record includes everyone else who has also accessed that credit record. Although it should be illegal, they would use any reason possible to turn down someone who had recent hits on their credit reports because they didn't want to deal with customers who might be "shopping around for the best credit deal." In this circumstance, totally irrelevant credit data -- i.e. who else had accessed your credit record recently -- was used against you.
These bastards have to go down!
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History Of (Score:2)
i hate them too, but... (Score:2)
I'm sure they are mad because they lose potential debtors to this. It's probably the prime reason. But looki
2.3 million opponents to weakening the law (Score:3, Insightful)
Citizens Against Credit Report Abuse (Score:4, Informative)
Secondly, I think that credit report system is flawed, having lenders use it for lending purposes are certainly understandable. The problem is I don't think its a good idea to use it as an end all solution to determine if someone is legit. People change, mistakes are made and are possibly corrected. Also the big thing i have a problem is with is that it is used by non-lenders. Paying bills such as utilities and rent should not even be factored into the use of credit reports. The largest problem of all, you don't have much control over what goes on your record. Basically you are putting someone else in power of determining your creditability and that is not something you want to do.
I'm interested in knowing if anyone would be interested in joining a grass roots effort to limit the scope of credit bureau influence.
I'm going to setup a website put something together, please email me if you are interested
trinsic@in-trinsic.net
Dial Down Debit Accounts (Score:2)
GreenDimes = carbon-neutral + less junk mail (Score:3, Informative)
Hop on over to GreenDimes and sign up. For $36/yr (at least that's what it cost when I signed up a few months ago), they purge your name from all these mailing-lists AND plant one tree a month in your name. So you can reduce the flow of junk (which saves trees) and have trees planted. It gets you that much closer to carbon neutrality.
FWIW, before I signed up, I used to have my box stuffed with junk on a daily basis. Now only the occasional piece trickles in, and that's only from companies who haven't scrubbed their lists yet.
Re:How about using the Federal law (Score:5, Insightful)
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Personally, I'm quite happy that I can go anywhere
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Yes, fine granularity is good. If the population of the country is evenly split between benefitting from Option A and Option B, the best you can hope to do with federal legislation is 50% satisfaction. If the people are randomly distributed throughout the country, state legislation will also yield a 50% satisfaction rate. If, however, the people aren't distributed rando
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One of the reasons that federalism (that is, shared governance) is a good system is that it allows the states to "test-run" laws, to see which work and which don't. Once a large majority of states have non-contradictory laws, all governing the same thing in nearly the same way, it is time for the federal government to p
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Please read your constitution. It is exactly this kind of gross misunderstanding of the role of the federal government that is responsible for the intrusive nanny state the USA has become.
But in what might seem like a contradiction, I do feel this is a federal matter, not a state matter. It definately
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