Judge Orders FBI to Release Abuse Records

Spamicles writes "A judge has ordered the FBI to release agency records about its abuse of National Security Letters (NSLs) to collect Americans' personal information. The ruling came just a day after the EFF urged the judge to immediately respond in its lawsuit over agency delays. This is the same case in which an internal FBI audit found that the bureau potentially violated the law or agency rules more than 1,000 times while collecting data about domestic phone calls, e-mails and financial transactions in recent years."

Great!

[Sunburnt]

I'm sure this'll get results. The current executive branch has been pretty respectful of legislative and judicial checks on its power thus far.

And while I'm at it, I'd really like a pony.

Re:Great!

[bladesjester]

I'd say that qualifies more as cynicism than apathy. He's not saying he doesn't care, just that he doesn't think it's going to be actually followed through on.

Given past practices, I have to say that I agree with that sentiment. I think the chances are good that the administration is just going to ignore the demands.

That's it, yes.

[Sunburnt]

Seriously, thank you for expressing that more coherently than I would have on this lazy beer-drinking Saturday afternoon.

Re:

[bladesjester]

You're quite welcome. Some people don't seem to see the difference between being cynical and being apathetic.

Then again, I sometimes think that I have have cynicism down to an artform. Somehow, though, I still hope it turns out better than I think it will. Go figure.

Re:Great?

[WannaBeGeekGirl]

I'd say that qualifies more as cynicism than apathy. He's not saying he doesn't care, just that he doesn't think it's going to be actually followed through on.
Given past practices, I have to say that I agree with that sentiment. I think the chances are good that the administration is just going to ignore the demands.

Past practices... 'I can not recall' any past practices...

FWIW, chance has nothing to do with it--its completely intentional. I apologize for being so blunt, but I'm tired of walking on eggshells that are neither red nor blue.

{soapbox} (Assume ethnocentric American remarks when "us" used:) I am cynical about the situation (if I weren't I'd be non-functional), I am not apathetic at all. Its easy to just post or whine about it. Slashbots have proved good about modkilling/promoting the messengers

Re:Great!

[soren100]

I'm sure this'll get results. The current executive branch has been pretty respectful of legislative and judicial checks on its power thus far.

While the above might seem like cynicism, but the truth is that the FBI has been abusing its power for a long, long, time.

in 1971 the Citizens' Commission to Investigate the FBI [wikipedia.org]raided an FBI office and published over 1000 classified FBI documents, revealing domestic political repression campaigns such as Operation [wikipedia.org] Cointelpro [whatreallyhappened.com] A year later the FBI officially terminated the program.

The public outrage led to an official Congressional investigation of the FBI which gave a report in 1976 that had this [icdc.com] to say:

"Americans are now aware of the capability and proven willingness of their Government to collect intelligence about their lawful activities and associations. What some suspected and others feared has turned out to be largely true -- vigorous expression of unpopular views, association with dissenting groups, participation in peaceful protest activities, have provoked both government surveillance and retaliation."

Sound Familiar?

The report goes on to say:

"Too many people have been spied upon by too many Government agencies and too much information has been collected. The Government has often undertaken the secret surveillance of citizens on the basis of their political beliefs, even when those beliefs posed no threat of violence or illegal acts on behalf of a hostile foreign power. The Government, operating primarily through secret informants, but also using other intrusive techniques such as wiretaps, microphone "bugs", surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, has swept in vast amounts of information about the personal lives, views, and associations of American citizens. Investigations of groups deemed potentially dangerous -- and even of groups suspected of associating with potentially dangerous organizations -- have continued for decades, despite the fact that those groups did not engage in unlawful activity. Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed...

Remember, these are not "conspiracy theorists" talking -- this is an actual government report from 30 years ago documenting the behavior of the previous 40 years.

Re:

[Sunburnt]

Remember, these are not "conspiracy theorists" talking -- this is an actual government report from 30 years ago documenting the behavior of the previous 40 years.

And look at what a widespread change in the corrupt culture of governance that report effected.

While the above might seem like cynicism, but the truth is that the FBI has been abusing its power for a long, long, time.

Exactly. I'm not being cynical. I'm just betting the odds.

Re:

[sgt_doom]

Geez, I thought once Frasca and Maltbie were promoted (ya know, those two clowns that sat on thousands of tipoffs of 9/11/01 terrorist attacks - along with the tipoff of the "alleged" anthrax assassin [supposed to have sat on that one for 8 monthsa until the Feebs began to investigate - ya know, until the trail was way too cold]) everything would be copasetic with the incredible FBI - what's the deal.....

Re:

[deskin]

The current executive branch has been pretty respectful of legislative and judicial checks on its power thus far.

I hear you there. I doubt this'll actually get anywhere; at least, it won't any time soon.

The real problem isn't that the FBI is unlikely to comply with the judge's order; it is that these sort of issues happen in the first place. What country allows stuff like this? What country shrugs its shoulders when the president pushes the Patriot Act through Congress (not that he had to push very hard)? I hope that 2009 might bring a repeal of this bill, and the reversal of many injustices of the previous ei

For the love of god noooooooooo

[Timesprout]

Ice Ice Baby was bad enough the first time it was released.

Re:For the love of god noooooooooo

[dangitman]

Ice Ice Baby was bad enough the first time it was released.

You mean "Under Pressure"?

Great!

[TheGreatHegemon]

Normally, I'd write a deeper post, but this warrants this instead: *Dances for joy* Granted, this is still a far cry from those documents being released. Documents disappear, or hell, the FBI just ignores the ruling. Wouldn't be the first time.

Re:

[symbolic]

At least now there's a precedent. And people can be held in contempt for non-compliance. If it's some John Q. Citizen asking for info, and the Bushocracy tells them to get lost, there's not much they can do accept file an expensive lawsuit, or mount a PR campaign.

Re:Great!

[Courageous]

Really, I don't understand how the FBI could "ignore" a ruling. I would think that the judge would respond by naming specific individuals at the FBI, like the Director, and holding them in contempt and in jail, in perpetuity, until compliance occurs.

C//

Re:

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Really, I don't understand how the FBI could "ignore" a ruling. I would think that the judge would respond by naming specific individuals at the FBI, like the Director, and holding them in contempt and in jail, in perpetuity, until compliance occurs.

That only works as long as there has been no pre-emptive spying on the judge and his little extra-marital affair that would be a real shame if his wife ever found out about.

Re:

[Courageous]

65% unlikely. :)

Re:Great!

[kcbrown]

Really, I don't understand how the FBI could "ignore" a ruling. I would think that the judge would respond by naming specific individuals at the FBI, like the Director, and holding them in contempt and in jail, in perpetuity, until compliance occurs.

And who, exactly, would arrest them, huh?

The DOJ? Only if the DOJ were independent of the executive branch. Thanks to GWB, it's not anymore (if it ever was). The DEA? Executive branch. The ATF? Executive branch. The military? Executive branch.

The court's power is enforced through the executive branch. If the executive branch decides it wants to ignore the court, what can the court do?

Not a damned thing, that's what.

He who controls the guns controls everything. Power over life and death is the ultimate power. The executive branch has that. The judicial branch does not.

Re:

[Courageous]

I'm uncertain in situations involving federal cases who the court appoints to conduct their arrests for contempt. However, I am pretty certain that they do indeed command the practical authority to have their contempt charges enforced. Whether or not they would be likely to engage an individual (FBI director, unlikely) as opposed to a fine ($100K a day until you comply... more likely) is worth discussing. And I think you're wrong: he who controls the PRESS controls everything. It just so happens that the on

Re:

[kcbrown]

And I think you're wrong: he who controls the PRESS controls everything.

Someone with a gun can take away the press from its owner, but the reverse isn't as true. That said, as long as the guy with the gun answers to the guy with the press, the guy with the press wins. That's the situation we have right now, and the only reason it remains that way is that we hold elections. If the elections stop, all bets are off.

Re:

[Courageous]

I would opine that there are far, far too many weapons in private hands in the U.S. for any kind of dictatorship to emerge here. Look at what the IRA did to Ireland... that was 400 members in the IRA at its peak, in a country where personal possession of firearms had been illegal for decades. They had to leave the country just to train with their weapons. Here is a different story. An attempt to force a military dictatorship here would be a total bloodbath. What scares me most isn't so much the forcing of t

Re:

[Bender0x7D1]

I believe that responsibility would then rest with the U.S. Marshals.

From Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:

The USMS is the enforcement arm of the federal courts, protecting federal courts and ensuring the effective operation of the judicial system.

and

The United States Marshals Service also executes all lawful writs, processes, and orders issued under the authority of the United States, and shall command all necessary assistance to execute its duties.

Re:

[kcbrown]

From the same Wikipedia link [wikipedia.org] you referred to:

The United States Marshals Service is based in Arlington, Virginia and, under the authority and direction of the Attorney General, is headed by a Director, who is assisted by a Deputy Director. USMS Headquarters provides command, control and cooperation for the disparate elements of the service.

In other words, the executive branch. So my statement unfortunately still stands. :-(

Excellent points, Courageous poster

[sgt_doom]

Outstanding points, except when your name is Robert Mueller "the turd" (I'm guessing that's a word play on his being the III as opposed to Junior) you too wouldn't want to be named......

Re:

[phorm]

And who is going to arrest and imprison those individuals?

To add to that, if the president were found guilty of a crime and sentenced to immediate impeachment, removal, and imprisonment... who would carry out the order to do so? The police? The military?

Who is going to follow the orders of a judge over those of the FBI, or others in power?

Good.

[killpog]

These clowns need it.

obligatory

[eneville]

in soviet america fbi find you!!

It's just a matter of time.

[Fox_1]

We know that there are records of this activity by the FBI. Now it is just a matter of time until these records come to light. The beauty of computers and email and automatic logging is that this administrations actions will be very difficult to hide. It's really amazing that the FBI and other Gov't agencies went hog-wild on peoples civil rights, and that they thought somehow that this was OK, that they would get away with it. How blind to the future consequences of their actions are these people? Seriously it's like watching the stooges play gov't.

Re:It's just a matter of time.

[_KiTA_]

We know that there are records of this activity by the FBI. Now it is just a matter of time until these records come to light. The beauty of computers and email and automatic logging is that this administrations actions will be very difficult to hide. It's really amazing that the FBI and other Gov't agencies went hog-wild on peoples civil rights, and that they thought somehow that this was OK, that they would get away with it. How blind to the future consequences of their actions are these people? Seriously it's like watching the stooges play gov't.


Well, they felt that they had fixed the process enough that they had a "permanent majority" starting about 6 years ago. Fixed via either hosting sessions with DOJ and other Government officials on how they can do their part to fix elections, or getting easily edited digital election machines, or just restricting our rights to the point that we can't do shit to stop them.

Ergo, why bother holding back anymore? They are "The Government" (Tm), now and forever, right? Right?

I fear we're going to find all too many abuses of power in the upcoming decades. I've heard tell of us using White Phosphorous as a chemical weapon on civilians in Iraq, of using siege tactics on civilian cities, of all sorts of horrid crap that the US Media just won't acknowledge -- but is easily available information in the European and Asian news.

Well, until the Democrats take full control in 2009 -- then suddenly the suddenly reformed US Media will "discover" all this bad stuff, just in time to find an excuse to blame it on President Obama.

Re:

[MadMidnightBomber]

White phosphorus was used in Falluja - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm [bbc.co.uk] and http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/artic le327094.ece [independent.co.uk]

The government they deserve.

[Original Replica]

While I would like to agree with your optimism about the Democrats in 2009, I can't. Politicians aren't in the buisness of giving up power, and if we get a Democratic president, then signing statements etc will become "useful tools in the right hands". I have to wonder if our nations great experiment in Democracy is showing it's flaws they way Communism did in the late 80s. Our founding fathers knew that this was the weakness in our system, and perhaps that would explain the rather elitist requirements orig

Re:

[Thrip]

Maybe we need to make some new requirements for voters

We should start by requiring them to vote.

Re:

[tourvil]

Politicians aren't in the buisness of giving up power, and if we get a Democratic president, then signing statements etc will become "useful tools in the right hands".

Exactly. The danger of the expanding executive power occurring during this administration are not limited to how much Bush can abuse power. These new powers will be available to the next president, Democratic or Republican. And the next, and the next, and every future president of this country, unless these powers are specifically taken awa

The judge...

[Anonymous Coward]

...will probably now find that his phones will be tapped for the rest of his life, his mail will arrive having been tampered with, and everywhere he drives, he'll always be followed around by a dark blue Ford Crown Vic with US Govt plates containing a pair of large, frowning, square-jawed men wearing cheap dark suits and sunglasses and earphone wires running down their necks into their jackets.

Re:

[kcbrown]

We know that there are records of this activity by the FBI. Now it is just a matter of time until these records come to light. The beauty of computers and email and automatic logging is that this administrations actions will be very difficult to hide. It's really amazing that the FBI and other Gov't agencies went hog-wild on peoples civil rights, and that they thought somehow that this was OK, that they would get away with it. How blind to the future consequences of their actions are these people? Seriously

Re:

[cerberusss]

Jeeebus, I'm sorry and I don't wish to insult you, but what happened to Slashdot being a techie place with lots of nerdy stuff? Whole stories are filled with political discussions not related to tech at all... I'm disappointed.

Why the delay in turning over the records?

[Man On Pink Corner]

After all, as mewling pussies everywhere have reminded us ad nauseam, if the FBI isn't doing anything wrong, what do they have to worry about?

Re:

[sgt_doom]

Great Citizen, Man On Pink Corner, you are sooooo frigging funny - I officially mod you up 1,000,000,000,000,000 points.....

how can their possibly be _so_many_ terrorists?

[hxnwix]

Thousands! Of terrorists, in our own country!

And criminals! With 2,186,230 in jail and thousands investigated without due process, Americans are either the most criminal or the most oppressed people on this earth.

Re:

[Zorque]

Although I agree what's happening here is wrong and we shouldn't stand for it, if you honestly believe that Americans are the most oppressed people on Earth then you have a very narrow world view.

Re:

[haraldm]

Agreed. Then there's the other 2 variants.

What the Guys at the FBI just heard

[JamesRose]

"Judge orders FBI to Abuse Reports"

Paraphrasing President Jackson...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Make me."