FAA To Free Aircraft Hobbled By IP Laws 106
smellsofbikes writes "The FAA is attempting to develop a legal process that will allow them to release data about vintage aircraft designs that have obviously been abandoned. Existing laws restrict the FAA's ability to release this data because it is deemed to be intellectual property even though the owner of record has long since ceased to exist. This is fundamentally the same problem that copyright laws impose on people looking for out-of-print books. But in the case of vintage aircraft, the owners are legally required to maintain them to manufacturer specifications that the owners cannot legally obtain: an expensive and potentially lethal dilemma. If the FAA, notoriously hidebound and conservative, is willing to find a solution to this IP Catch-22, maybe the idea will catch on in other places."
About time... (Score:2, Funny)
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Though I like the look of most warplanes, and have a real fondness for the Grumman Goose, I am not an aircraft enthusiast and so this may be a silly question: exactly how is a WWI biplane a stealth design?
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However, wood-and-fabric don't reflect radio waves as well as metal.
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and the semi-stealth properties of wood is why the mosquito is my favorite WW2 plane
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If I told you, I would be obligated to kill you. Wait until the FAA releases the design.
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Does it matter? Having a radar signature the size of an engine block is still an improvement compared to having one the size of an entire plane!
Besides, modern stealth aircraft aren't entirely invisible to radar, either.
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Radar WAS around for WWII (Score:2)
In WW2 both sides were using radar to detect inbound bombers. Radar was also used to search for ships and submarines.
The real issue is that aircraft played a relatively insignificant role during World War 1. By the second war aviation technology had advanced to where aircraft could easily destroy enemy surface resources.
Of course, I still want to build my own Jenn
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Whoosh!
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If I remember rightly, there was a NATE exercise back in the 20th century, where one of the objects was to penetrate US air space without being bounced by some supersonic jet-jock. The Poms managed it with a WW1 biplane at the time - even when it was picked up on radar, no-one on the ground could tell what it was, or in which direction it was going.
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Pacific Fighters (Score:5, Informative)
Results of this include there being no Yorktown-class model in the sim, nor the TBF Avenger, and I think no more American warplanes beyond the ones initially shipped; contrast this to Soviet, German, Italian, and Japanese a/c being added in patches.
About time, though.
Re:Pacific Fighters (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the rest of your complaint, too bad, but it'll improve the game experience in the end. So it's not a TBF-avenger, it's a "TBB-evengor".
The Burnout series doesn't have any real car models, and is still a fun game. Other games with licensed models (NFS) are hampered, because the license owners dont want the game developer to depict a porsche all smashed up with its bumper hanging off.
Licensing is a big deal now that video games are on top of the entertainment industry. But, in the end, do I really care that the virtual car I'm driving around is labelled a "Fernorri Fasterelli"?
Also, I doubt the FAA gives a fuck about video game licensing, and are more worried about getting info into the hands of people needing to maintain aircraft built by now defunct companies.
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Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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The government can obtain licenses to IP, and can have IP given to it, in which case it has the same rights in it as anyone else would.
IP created by the government, cannot be protected, and that is something all together different.
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Unfortunately, current copyright law only covers "a work prepared by an officer or employee of the United States Government as part of that person's official duties." This probably made sense, when most of the government's functions were actually accomplished by government employees, but today -- when a large part, if not the majority, of government functions are done by private-sector contractors -- it means that an awful lot of what would traditi
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What about works funded by the NEA?
NEA is included, absolutely. (Score:3, Interesting)
I would argue that if you take taxpayer dollars for your art project, then (in the same way that the software that I write at work belongs to my company, not to me) it's basically a government work, done on commission. If you don't like that, don't take the cash. Nobody ever said that cash handouts should come without strings attached; actually, as long as the government is giving away my tax dollars, I'd prefer that they attach enough strings to make sure that the public
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Wartime is the normal state for the US. In its short history, it has been at war with somebody on a pretty regular basis (although as a matter of principle the US always fights undeclared wars). Here's the embarrassing list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Wars [wikipedia.org]
It is an open question as to whether the large military-industrial complex grew up to support the wars, or the wars grew up to support the large military-industrial complex.
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Just like the American Bantam Car Company owned its Jeep design.
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If you'd spent 18 months building a model to release as freeware how would you feel if a large aircraft company that built it many years bef
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For new planes, I could see patents and trademarks covering certain aspects of it (though utility is
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No, what I'm saying is that they could be pretty sure, if they talked with their lawyers, that the owners have no rights at all; whether or not they want to defend those rights is irrelevant if they haven't got them to begin with. It's like if I said that I owned ev
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And, as a lawyer (but not one dispensing legal advice), are you asserting that Northrop-Grumman couldn't at least make things difficult for the game company right up to the point that its lack of rights were established?
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*Some* game companies do. EA probably has *millions* they could spend on legal offense and defense, if they so chose. (Of course, they generally don't so chose, unless they think it'll make/save them even more money.)
But that's moot -- this FAA action/plan has *nothing* to do with using old planes in games. Perhaps you (and some previous posters) were thinking of the Milita [theorator.com]
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Also, they may be able to purchase the rights from the US Government, depending on how their agreements with Lockheed, Grumman are worded. I'm sure they'd be i
Re:Pacific Fighters (Score:5, Funny)
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They did differ a bit from a performance standpoint, but they each had streng
Boeing's wasn't even built (Score:2)
Well gee. That's a whole different plane. You might as well be changing the number of engines, switching from aluminum to composite, or putting canards on the front.
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Until the huns didn't care, then they destroyed em...
The U.S. loves using media for marketting of this type and it gets more and more obvious the more you know about military hardware and policies.
Look at it from the inventor's perspective (Score:2)
Safety concerns driving this (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a good step, but it seems to pertain to safety concerns much more than "hobbiest" concerns, which was my first thought when I saw "vintage." (It would be really cool to see, say, original blueprints in svg format for the first commercial airplanes, but good luck getting either access to such information or right to do anything with it.)
I doubt the logic used in this process could be generalized to copyright in general (probably the issue of most interest to slashdot), since it's pretty hard to argue that (for example) old software manuals for a long dead image editing system could pertain to public safety. They might be very well written and a good starting point for new efforts, but the benefits of that are much more indirect.
I think the loss of old documents and knowledge is a very unfortunate thing - there is a certain logic to IP holdings of companies that have "lapsed" or vanished becoming defunct in order to allow the knowledge and resources to be used for further progress. Of course, that would require uniquely identifying IP created by that company as opposed to being licensed from somewhere else, virtually impossible without good records. A nasty situation.
Re:Safety concerns driving this (Score:5, Informative)
claims rights to the type certificate, AND you have one of the airplanes and need the data to
maintain it in a safe manner. If you just think it would be cool to see, it wouldn't
'enhance aviation safety' in anyway to release the details.
These documents wouldn't be "lost" with out this change. They are part of the Federal Records.
The type certificates contain all of the drawing and details required to build the aircraft.
If the company built a plane that didn't meet the type cert, it would not be certified as airworthy.
This just allows owners of the planes to keep them legally flyable.
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Even if the request is from an aeronautics student who, years later, might well be involved in the design of aircraft on which you or your descendants might fly?
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It wouldn't be nearly the nasty problem if copyright still only lasted for 14 years or whatever the original length was. And if copies had to be deposited in the library of congress. And if the library was tasked with making works available on the net as they passed out of copyright and from then on.
The last two options
My own experience... (Score:3, Informative)
Ten years. And that's for a plane that effectively stopped existing three or four years before I even started the quest.
(I
I don't know why it's so damned hard... (Score:4, Insightful)
So all of the fine speak about protecting people's 'Intellectual Property' rights, which really come down to allowing a form of legalized monopoly to allow an originator to profit, becomes entirely moot.
Re:I don't know why it's so damned hard... (Score:4, Insightful)
> marketplace from any supplier, there seems to be little financial damage done to anyone
> when someone duplicates 'em.
But that's a bit short sighted. The same argument was (is?) used with regards to things like NES/SNES roms, but now Nintendo is reselling the games (virtual console). Sure the new versions may not be quite the same since they play one the Wii, but either way, there's still a potential for damage. So the trick is that you have to determine that something is not only unavailible, but that it will also never be availible.
And while the method the FAA says they'll be using would work for other things, there is more value for things like planes. The trouble is that even if you have a plane, there is very little knowledge obtainable (without massive effort). With a book, all the stuff of value is right there in black and white. The FAA is essentially doing the equivilant of releasing the author's notes along with the book. While the latter is convienent (to say the least), the former actually adds to public wealth.
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Sure, it's more important from public safety viewpoint for this to apply to old airplane designs, b
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Just because you CAN find another way to squeeze a few more dollars out of the current copyright scheme, doesn't mean it's a good thing.
Even though it might cost the copyright holders a little bit of money, I believe the OP has a reasonable scheme...
I'd also be happy with copyright renewal every 5 or 10 years... So anything not worth the registration fee to the owner (who ma
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Why? I, for one, see absolutely nothing wrong with requiring that the things be continuou
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Duke Nukem Forever has been on the presale list for 6 years now. Is a 10 year layaway, or a 5 year backorder "continuously available?"
Re:I don't know why it's so damned hard... (Score:5, Informative)
Aircraft are a little different, though. You need an exact, verified, updated from the manufacturer copy. You might die otherwise.
In a better world ... (Score:4, Insightful)
That would just make a patent system (Score:5, Insightful)
Patents require a lot of money and thus are exclusive to those that can afford them.
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Yes it can, and in fact, it traditionally has.
When you write something, anything really (that's not immune to copyright such as a recipe), it's copyrighted to you.
Why should that be true? I think that it would be a bad idea to do that, and again, that's a pretty new idea which has been having a lot of predictably bad results.
would it be OK for someone to break into my computer and start distributing my private records or love notes without my permi
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Why should that be true? I think that it would be a bad idea to do that, and again, that's a pretty new idea which has been having a lot of predictably bad results.
Care to explain? Maybe some linkage, or perhaps an anecdotal example would help to clarify what you mean.
I tend to disagree with the rest of your argument as well, but you make some valid points. If I'm not planning on publishing them, I can understand your sentiment that I shouldn't be protected by copyright. Let me posit this though: what if I decide that all of my love notes over the years constitute a publishable, marketable product? Since I didn't write them initially to publish have I lost my r
Re:That would just make a patent system (Score:5, Informative)
Until the 1976 Copyright Act, published materials that were not formally registered with the Copyright Office (or other bodies, if you go back far enough), were automatically in the public domain. Many unpublished works were as well. And now, after the 1976 Act, unpublished, unregistered works that were created before 1978 and not published by 2003 also automatically entered the public domain. So it's not as though we have to grant copyrights to everything, or something.
But the crappy laws we have these days, which do indiscriminately grant copyrights pretty clearly are not only not benefiting the public (which wants 1) works to be created and published, and; 2) works to be in the public domain as soon as possible and to be minimally protected by copyright if at all), but they aren't even an incentive to authors to begin with. (e.g. architectural works, overly long terms, giving works the full measure of protection without any indication by the author that it is desired)
We can do pretty much anything we want with copyright. It has to provide a public benefit, as described above. It should provide the greatest possible benefit. It has to have limited terms, it has to only protect original works of authorship, and the rights have to vest in the author. So long as these requirements can be met, copyright can be pretty much anything. The current system is no good, though, so at least we know what it shouldn't be.
Let me posit this though: what if I decide that all of my love notes over the years constitute a publishable, marketable product? Since I didn't write them initially to publish have I lost my right to do so?
I think that we ought to take a page from patent law and the old common law copyright, which is pretty closely related to copyright law, in that they use similar means to achieve similar ends. If you're still in the process of creating a work, then you should have some limited rights to prevent people from pirating the manuscript, as it were, but it shouldn't be enough protection that an author would actively want to be at this level of protection if he could avoid it. Otherwise, if you abandon the work in progress, you get one year, and then you lose your rights in it and your eligibility for a registered copyright if you haven't registered it already. If you publish the work (inclusive of publicly performing or displaying it), then you get one year to register before your unregistered rights expire. The whole point of the system should be to weed out authors who are not motivated by the commercial benefits which are the only thing a copyright is good for. Hobbyists shouldn't get copyrights unless they're transitioning over to being professionals; it's not an incentive for hobbyists, who would have done the same work anyway. (It's analogous to paying someone for painting your house after they painted it for free; the charity on both sides is admirable, but it's no way to run a railroad) Once the work is registered, the full measure of protections open up, copies are deposited with the Library of Congress, and you need only renew the copyright periodically (say, every year or two) so that your continuing interest can be judged; fail to renew, and we can safely say that you don't care about the copyright anymore, so the work enters the public domain before the maximum possible term would run through. (Which also is how we used to do things, though with longer terms)
So in your case, you were not inspired by copyright in writing the notes. And while it'd be nice to get them published, which is desirable, it's also nice to not grant copyrights excessively. Often, fewer works but more freedom is more valuable than more works and less freedom. Given that you probably will not have competition for your love letters -- there's so many authors that it's a publisher's market -- you may as well publish it as a public domain work. If there is any money to be mad
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I'm not saying they are, in fact, I don't think I've ever written a love letter on anything b
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But it shouldn't be. The policy aim of copyright is to promote the progress of knowledge and public learning. That's completely the opposite of protecting privacy. It's part of the reason that copyright should only apply to published works or works which are to be published soon; unpublished works don't meaningfully contribute to the public, and aren't worth providing costly incentives for.
If you want to protect your privacy, then that's
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Requiring people to pay for copyright would not affect large companies like those in the music, movie, publishing or the aviation industry. It would affect individuals, and small groups from being able to protect their rights. For example, while newspapers, and other news organisations would register their copyrights, bloggers are less likely to do so... which means the Ne
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I think that the point is that if the manufacturers had to periodically re-register their data and pay a fee to do so, the data would tend to become publicly available when the manufacturers no longer had an interest in it. As it is, it stays secret indefinitely.
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Yes, but copyrights take too long to expire, at least in these aircraft cases. The virtue of requiring period re-registration with a fee is that you can allow a relatively long copyright period if the owner finds the copyright valuable enough to keep it up, but that once the owner decides it isn't worth it, it lapses. This would eliminate the gap that results in orphan works, where a publisher loses interest in the work but the copyright runs on and on for decades afterward. If you've got a plane whose man
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The plane company might want you to buy a new plane. They are certainly entitled to 'sit on' the information about their older models and let them rust, if it helps them sell new planes. Nobody is entitled to 'support information' just because.
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I don't agree. It should be up to the consumer to decide whether or not to buy a new plane. He shouldn't have to buy one just because the manufacturer wants to make more money. Nobody is asking the company to provide support indefinitely - we're just talking about the detailed specs.
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The manufacturer is not obligated to release proprietary data.
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And then when they stopped paying their yearly fee
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But that would mean we currently ARE in a better world than this one, which is a paradox. DOES NOT COMPUTE
While copyright is implicitly granted to the creator of a work immediately upon its creation, anyone who is going to have a need to actually enforce their copyright is going to register their creation with the Copyright Office.
The problem, obviously, is that the term of copyright automatically extends fo
...and also... (Score:5, Funny)
The FAA, possibly even more notorious for their dislike of aircraft crashing, even old ones?
A Summary of the FAA's View (Score:5, Funny)
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Bringing Back Old Aircraft (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bringing Back Old Aircraft (Score:5, Informative)
For old planes, unless you get a field approval (unlikely) or the mod falls under an STC (Special Type Certificate), repairs and rebuilds of components must be EXACTLY the same as the original if you are to keep the plane Certified as a regular aircraft. So it's not just an issue of rebuilding the plane to a safe working condition to keep it functioning - that's easy; it's a matter of rebuilding it back to exactly the way it was before. That's not so easy to guess at.
Of course, the Piper Cub is not a great example as total blueprints are apparently available for this one. Indeed, salvaged data-plates from wrecked Cubs go for $10k or so by themselves - as long as you have that you can literally build the plane from scratch according the original plans, stick the data plate on it, and it is legally the same plane as the one that was wrecked. Even though it was constructed form scratch, that whole process was considered a "repair" operation. The FAA is a strange critter
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Abandoned should == Public Domain (Score:3, Insightful)
This should be the case in every digital IP field:
music, video games, television, movies, etc., etc., etc.
If it's not worth enough to an organization to continue making an item available for sale, then how can the item have enough value to protect?
And if the item becomes popular again in the future, it is almost always a derivative work anyway.
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This should be the case in every digital IP field:
music, video games, television, movies, etc., etc., etc.
If it's not worth enough to an organization to continue making an item available for sale, then how can the item have enough value to protect?
While I agree with you, I think the value the big boys see is in the old stuff not competing with the new.
all the best,
drew
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zotzbr o&search=Search [youtube.com]
Copyright Kills (Score:2)
I guess copyright is more dangerous than we thought . . .
Abandoned IP rights (Score:2)
Of course - there has to be a publication that lists works that are ripe for losing the IP ownership so that anybody that may have claims can oppose the release. The opposing part has to provide reasonable documentation regarding the claim with
What about cars? (Score:2)
Everything points to North America (And much of the developed world) switching to hydrogen or bio-fuels in the next few years.
They could give out the plans for their car from 5 years ago and it wouldn't be competition by the time other companies got their manufacturing working.
Dream come true? (Score:1)
I gotta get me one of those...
How dare they not buy new planes! (Score:1)
This is simply criminal! The FAA must be stopped from doing this. If they carry on down this road, then the ultimate end will be the destruction of the use-once-only airplane we all know and love and it's replacement with some shoddy horrible clap-trap assembly of a resusable airplane. Not only would you not g