British Police Identify Killer in Radiation Case 235
reporter writes "According to a front-page story by The Guardian, British authorities have identified Andrei Lugovoi to be the murderer who used radioactive pollonium-210 to kill Andrei Litvinenko. The British government will ask Moscow to extradite Lugovoi. The Guardian states: 'Associates of the dead man have repeatedly accused President Vladimir Putin's government of being behind his murder, a claim the Kremlin rejects. While it is known that detectives believe they have uncovered evidence pointing to Mr Lugovoi's involvement, it is not clear whether they have established a motive for the murder'"
We should be defending the Plutonium killer (Score:4, Funny)
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You guys short of rainfall or what?
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YRO? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:YRO? (Score:5, Funny)
But Britain is an industrialized society, so I don't think it's got anything to do with hay or hey as it's sometimes written.
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Even if you *did* have a license, it's only legal to kill Russians during Russki season, which is March-April.
Tracked by his radioactive trail (Score:5, Interesting)
The UK may have to hand over a scummy billionaire who profited immensely off of the rush to privatize Russia, which would be cool: two scumbags busted for the price of one.
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Re:Tracked by his radioactive trail (Score:5, Interesting)
At the same time, he has stood for the liberalization of the media and government structures, for which he was ordered exterminated by Litvinenko. In a tyrannical atmosphere that is Russia right now, that deserves a lot of credit.
Re:Tracked by his radioactive trail (Score:5, Informative)
He openly provided funds to Chechen terrorists. He openly declared his plans to violently overthrow Russian government. If both of these are legal, then I'm Santa Claus.
Re:Tracked by his radioactive trail (Score:5, Funny)
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Openly? Cite it. He seems to be particularly guilty of having a big mouth ("That includes taking power by force, which I am working on") but it's hard to imagine having any success in seizing Moscow with Chechen fighters.
Not that I think Boris is a champion of liberty -- he's probably even more of a crook than Putin and Yeltsin -- but his criticism of the Chechen war doesn't exactly make him Al Qaeda.
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http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/1101/6411090a.h t ml [forbes.com] (print version: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/1101/6411090a_pr int.html [forbes.com] )
When pressed, Maskhadov names the man he sees as the prime villain in the affair: tycoon Boris Berezovsky. For the past several years Berezovsky has been channeling ransom payments to terrorists in Chechnya who have kidnapped visitors. Berezovsky boasts of his rescue efforts, but, says Maskhadov, the ransom money has dark consequences: It finances the Islamic militias, which are now attacking Russia.
In a recent interview with Le Figaro, Berezovsky admits to the payment. "I gave him this money ... to begin the reconstruction of the republic," he says, adding that his money does not go to support war against Russia.
And this is just the result of 5 minutes of Internet search. I'm sure you can find more such examples, that's why the Russian Office of Public Prosecutor still wants him.
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There was no Chechen terrorists. None. Not a single one. A few street thugs does not justify a mass genocide that Putin started. The same situation actually applies 1:1 for US and Afghanistan/Iraq, upcoming Iran mess. You start genocide, you get your terrorists. Usually ordinary guys that have been driven out of their homes, have their sisters/daughters violently raped/killed by FightersForFreedom or just is driven insane by constant CNN reports claiming that they ARE the terrorists. Wha
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Second, there ARE Chechen terrorists, just come close to Chechnya (preferably, to mountainous region) and see it yourself.
Chechens fully deserve the beating, because during early 90-s they forced about 500000 Russians to move out of Chechnya (talk about displaced ordinary guys), including some of my distant relatives.
And how about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hostage_c risis [wikipedia.org] ?
Re:Tracked by his radioactive trail (Score:5, Funny)
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In fact, perhaps Microsoft could be persuaded to supply their government with "n" copies of Vista, in exchange for dropping the EEC fine. That way Russia will have the most hackab^H^H^H^H^H secure government computers in the world...
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The UK may have to hand over a scummy billionaire who profited immensely off of the rush to privatize Russia, which would be cool: two scumbags busted for the price of one.
Actually, the courts have already ruled that Boris Berezovsky cannot be returned to Russia, so even if there was the political will to return him, it seems unlikely that they could do anything about it.
Mod Parent Up (Score:5, Interesting)
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Fair enough, but why would UK then expect Russia to extradite anyone to UK? It's damn confusing. Are they just playing "diplomatic" games here? Or they have to officially make these requests even if they know it won't work?
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If the UK is lucky, Russia will try Lugovoi. If they aren't, Russia will ask to try Berezovsky for this murder. (Yes, Russia is doing its own investigation...)
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Billionaire (Score:4, Informative)
In fact, this is the whole problem: to Russia, the concept of an independent judiciary is not credible.
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Or, Russia could simply give the UK St. Petersburg. Remove the Russian citizens first, since Russia cannot legally extradite anyone, but leave the artwork and ships.
Pity that Chernobyl is in the Ukraine...
Implications for British Power (Score:5, Interesting)
I think this is a real test case of whether the notion of the UK as a nation holds any actual power in the World. The Russian constitution, as I understand it, obliges the Russian government NOT to render Russian citizens for extradition, despite the fact that in Britain the defendent will assuredly recieve a fair trial (either in the UK or by analogy to the Lockerbie case, in a third country).
If the Russian government DID sponsor an assassination within British territory, it is an affront to our sovereignty and should be exposed. If on the other hand it was NOT, then it is equally desirable that the Russian government be cleared of that.
If the UK does not take a strong, principled stand on this issue, then I feel that our identity of "British" is very probably meaningless.
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Good point. If the Russian government is actually involved, they sure as hell won't want allow extradition.
"there are many overriding reasons why the Russain governemnt would not wish to hand over the suspect"
Although, I don't see any other obvious reasons not to allow extradition.
"the case
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If you were Putin, would you hand the guy over?
Or a better analogy, would you let your ex-girlfriend or a wife to be called as a character witness to testify on your behalf?
There are several options here:
1) The girl could say you are a great guy, loving, kind, and incapabale of hurting anybody. She could even admit to being the actual murderer and get you off the hook.
2
Re:Implications for British Power (Score:2)
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In the present situation everything is reversed. The fugitive is on Russian soil, and unless the UK performs an invasion they aren't going to get him onto British soil. So, the exact same forces that tended to lead to the US having
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Not really. There are still the dental jokes. (Score:2)
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Compared to whom? The US is still waiting for France to extradite French citizen Roman Polanski to answer a rape charge. "No extradition" often means just that, unless you think that the UK should hold countries to violate their own constitutions.
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I don't agree at all. I think that historical events and affairs along with the specific treaties and circumstances of the two countries will be the major determining factor in their relationship.
If the U.S.A., China or any other country was in Britain's position, their relationship with Russia would be mainly based on the various elements I described (along possibly with others), rather than o
ya right (Score:5, Insightful)
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Very perceptive, but I'd say the odds are too high. I'd put it at 3:1 right now. If it looks like Russia is going to have to hand him over, it'll get closer to even money.
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If he carried this polonium round for so long and was effectively oozing with the stuff, why isn't he in the same place as his victim?
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He ASKED for this... (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Weapon doesn't decay.
2. Don't need to visit a nuclear reactor (which will have very restricted access on) to get one.
3. Doesn't leave a HUGE trail of everywhere you have been with it.
4. Less chance of target surving long enough to give full description of you.
This assasination was far too elaborate...
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Re:Uh, postage costs for radioactive items? (Score:5, Informative)
Just think - if you could buy as much polonium 210 as what was used against Litvinenko, do you really think that any postage service would want to deliver a radioactive package?
Actually, Polonium 210 is an alpha emitter, which means it's quite safe unless you ingest or inhale it (at which point even small amounts become deadly). Just putting it in a paper bag would shield you from much of the radiation. As long as it was securely packaged, I don't think it would be unsafe to mail.
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Buy it embedded in anti-static devices (Score:3, Insightful)
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I think whoever did this is going for a kind of terroris
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+1 most insightful comment on Slashdot all week. If you just want to shut up Litvinenko, knife him in an alley and take his wallet so it looks like a robbery. But if your goal is to shut everyone else up, make an example of Litvinenko and kill him using an exotic poison so everyone will know who did
the medium is the message (Score:2, Interesting)
The method of this assassination was intended to create a specific kind of fear among people who pay attention to these sorts of things. Putin's transformation of Russia is nearly complete.
Actually, it was perfect assissination (Score:3, Insightful)
Why was it a perfect assassination? Because it involved radiation which inherently causes anyone to shiver, and it caused a slow, painful, agonizing death, which sends about as big of a message as publicly drawing and quartering the guy.
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Like the stories about Oleg Penskovsky who was a double-agent from Soviet military intelligence (GRU). After he got caught and found guilty of treason, he supposedly didn't get shot - instead, he got put into an incinerator while still alive. Supposedly, the movie of the execution was shown to new GRU recr
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It seems apparent that it was the assassin's intension to show that it was an assassination by a well connected person, and to get a lot of media attention. They also wanted him to die slowly and make his accusations.
It seems likely the assassination is associated with Putin, committed by either a supporter or an opponent. A supporter might make others more fearful of dissidence. It would also end his speaking out against the administration, but his assa
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In fact, the Russian government has been absolutely, unequivocally refusing extradition, and they have been doing so since wel
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2. It is not that difficult (but expensive), in my understanding, to get Polonium.
3. Polonium doe
Advantage of using polonium (Score:2)
When you give it to somebody, it obligingly hides in the body so by the time it is identified, it's far too late to do anything. It is nearl
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Can we fix the headline? (Score:5, Insightful)
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A better question (Score:4, Interesting)
Why poison the person multiple times when one time would be enough? We know it's multiple times because the police believe it to be multiple exposures. How would they know this unless the decay or signatures were different between exposures?
The amount is very puzzling. The amount is a huge amount of the material. It was so much that it left a blemish in the tea cup. Something on orders of 100 watts of heat from the Po-210.
I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but it seems to me there has to be much more to this story. What were these guys really up to?
Re:A better question (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's exactly why I believe this method was used.
No individual or even group would have been able to get that much polonium, without at least the tacit approval of a government with a sufficiently advanced nuclear program. The list of potential suppliers is very short.
This was a message, which is very clear to dissenters and critics: you can't hide. We can get to you, or at least those that are close to you, no matter where you are.
Re:A better question (Score:5, Interesting)
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If some organization has been using Polonium routinely for untraceable executions this could simply have been the first time a mistake was mad
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Murderer.
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Sure. And someone in the USA needs to be upset enough to invoke them.
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It's just politics and diplomacy (Score:4, Interesting)
Will Berezovsky be extradited? (Score:2, Informative)
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Fact of the matter is, Ru
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UK economy, very big. Russian leverage. Immense!!
That's the thing about leverage. You get to apply a disproportionate amount of force if you use it wisely.
That isn't even a little bit true. Unless Russia has found a magical way of keeping THEIR oil from mixing with the international markets oil, there is nothing they can possibly do to cut off Britain's oil supplies or even cause a rise in their prices short of a military blockade or denying their oil to everyone. The first option is
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Your post is sober, cynical, and well thought out. I wish I could mod you "Score:5 Omniscient".
And I wish the world wasn't so horribly complex, such that the social patterns lead to loopholes that are large enough to squeeze a murder through.
Lord knows how I ever got hooked up with this godforsaken species. But hey, when the mothership comes back for me, I'll ask them to take you too.
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Andrei's reply (Score:4, Funny)
Litvinenko's Book (Score:5, Interesting)
"Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton with Funkadelic
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_Blowing Up Russia_ is detailed in its citations, including many references to news coverage corroborating it throughout the story it tells. A story that would of course include deniers astroturfing the biggest tech blog in the world's story about British police finding its author Litvinenko's po
The only way to solve this... (Score:2)
Real people; Real cases; Judge Judy.
80-year-old Elizabeth Windsor is suing 41-year-old Andrei Lugovoi for pain and suffering caused by the death of her dependent, Alexander Litvinenko. Andrei says: Elizabeth doesn't know what she's talking about.
This whole thing reeks (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry, I just don't buy it. I've read about the death of Litvinenko, and I've done a little homework into this guy's history that seems interesting. I'm not going to delve too deeply in the details, but it seems to me that it's quite probable that this whole thing was a publicity stunt.
Yeah, a guy's dead. But this guy has a history of being violently opposed to the current Russian administration. His history shows him trying a number of times to discredit and/or destroy the Putin-controlled government. He was involved with a number of groups with the same goal, particularly in London.
Now, honestly if you were a member of the Russian government who wanted rid of a thorny problem, how would you do it? Kill the guy with a bullet through the head, or use a traceable, unusual and likely highly public method of killing someone? It seems to me that the FSB would have been quite capable of putting a bullet in Litvinenko's brain pan at any time and suddenly this thorny problem goes away. Besides, it seems from my reading that Litvinenko was no more or less of a problem to the Russian government than most of his other brothers in his societies and groups in England. To say that Litvinenko was such a problem to the government that they'd want to kill him at all is I think inflating his importance.
Now, if you as a group wanted to make a statement that would have worldwide coverage regarding the inhumanity of Putin's government, how better to do it than to have one of your own lay down his/her life in a particularly odd and highly newsworthy fashion? And if you can show that your martyr has been moving around because his movements are particularly traceable then you've just scored extra bonus points.
Litvinenko's death was painful, slow and highly newsworthy. The BBC was all over it... I know. I live in the US but I still enjoy the BBC podcasts every day on my way to work... it was all over the BBC world service for weeks. It seems awfully convenient that a guy who has been extremely vocal in his opposition to Putin's government would meet an end that so amply demonstrates precisely the message he and his colleagues were trying to convey (if it's true, of course). The media coverage also somewhat reeked of an orchestrated media blitz, it was just too perfect.
Now, as for where they got the polonium-210... well, after the fall of the Soviet Union much of the nuclear material that had existed within the country's borders was probably sold off around the world in order to support the orphaned communities who suddenly had very few ways of supporting themselves. It's not such a stretch to think that a sufficiently organized group with enough funding could find a sufficient quantity of polonium-210 on the black market to take the life of one of their own in a massive political statement.
Now, I'm still a little on the fence on this one. I'd say 60% chance that the above is what happened, but I still maintain a 40% possibility that what the media told us about the FSB poisoning Litvinenko was true. Perhaps it was to make a statement to all of those colleagues of Litvinenko that they need to quiet down... but it seems to me that a handful of bullets and a few key members of the groups getting lynched would be cheaper, quicker, cleaner and send the same message effectively. The whole polonium poisoning thing just seems overkill for a government, but seems like a perfect way for a radical group to send a message. It's just a more sophisticated suicide bomber.
As I stated above, this is an opinion. Don't take it as gospel.
Polonium halo argument has been debunked before. (Score:2)
I'll bet you don't realize this, but that's been debunked. [talkorigins.org]
Re:Polonium halo argument has been debunked before (Score:2, Interesting)
robert v gentry has no problem putting his data into peer review publications such as nature and science -- and trust me, i
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Strange that you apparently didn't read my post as the word "debunk" did not appear.
Try actually reading what I said, then replying.
There was one, central, key point in my post:
CREATIONISM IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC THEORY
I'll repeat that one more time:
CREATIONISM IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC THEORY
Get it now. That's the point right there. Creationism simply does not satisfy the criteria for a scientific theory any more than "I have an undetect
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Are you wearing tinfoil hat? That's a conspiracy theorist and denialist argument.
Don't worry, I can relate to you because I've also been labeled that way by saying men never landed on the moon. I can also say you've been lied to all your life about moon landing. What justifies you better than I?
Your arrogant assertion is what pisses me off.
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Option #5 seems to be the most popular one. I k
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