Symantec Sues Microsoft, May Delay Vista 303
AuMatar writes "Symantec filed a lawsuit against Microsoft over patents on the volume management technology in Vista. They're seeking an injunction to stop Vista from being sold until the suit is completed. Given the recent Supreme Court ruling it should be interesting to see if the injunction is granted, since Symantec does produce software which uses the patent. If it is granted, expect MS to settle to prevent another Vista delay."
No balls.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No balls.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Interesting ploy (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Interesting ploy (Score:4, Insightful)
"Pay us some money, or we'll drag out this court thing and screw over your launch date, and cost you a bunch of money anyways."
Re:Interesting ploy (Score:5, Interesting)
b. they've got no chance in hell of finishing vista-compatible products in time, so they need another delay
c. they actually have a case.
Re:Interesting ploy (Score:4, Interesting)
E. all of the above.
your point "d" (Score:5, Interesting)
-They're going to offer an antivirus (in addition to their existing spyware removal software), making the use of SAV/NAV/NIS and such junk mostly pointless. [Not counting that most people seem to be moving to other AV apps lately like AVG and such - especially since NAV is getting harder to crack]
-They're including a basic firewall out of the box (not the best, but NIS is crap, that'd be like downgrading, if someone wants a better firewall, they'll get something that's actually better)
-Starting with Vista, they're replacing deployment tools, i.e. replacing RIS for WDS, but the interesting point here is XImage, which will likely replace ghost - the only symantec app that wasn't *total* crap yet (although lots of people have moved to/prefer acronis apps instead).
What's left? Winfax? Nope. Already a basic fax client in windows (it sucks, but I can't say winfax is great either, and most people/businesses that still use faxes nowadays don't do it via PC either). Doubt they sell many licenses.
Oh, PCAnywhere! Well, terminal services/citrix ICA is what everyone and their dog seems to be using these days (and apps like VNC/radmin). I haven't seen someone using it in a LONG time - definitely NOT mainstream either.
What else? Partition magic? Bleh. Those who wanted it bought it while it was Powerquest's - and it doesn't even seem to be updated anymore (symantec's specialty seems to be driving products into the ground - like novell seemingly). Buggier than ever, sounds like everyone prefers acronis apps for this nowadays.
The only thing they seem to have left that's worth buying is their new acquisition, veritas products. But I'm sure they'll manage to make them suck too, and drive them into the ground like everything else.
It seems they're not improving anything, they'd be the LEAST innovative company I could think of, and their junk just keeps getting worse.
Perhaps Veritas licenses alone can't keep the company afloat (unsurprisingly), and they're looking for a ne business model ala SCO (litigation, to prevent a new/better/more secure OS, or plain extorsion)
I'm sad to see many companies and products having been crushed by Microsoft over the years (OS/2, Corel stuff, you name it), but if there's one company I won't miss, it definitely is Symantec.
Dude... (Score:4, Interesting)
... you are seriously forgetting about the most used symantec product in the corporate environment. Symantec Corporate Anti-virus. We use it, every company I support uses it (lots of companies). One client has over 7,000 machines running the client end of it, meanwhile there's all the domain controllers running the server end as well. Licenses... cha-ching cha-ching cha-ching! Unlike their comsumer level Norton AV, Symantec Corporate AV, in my experience, actually does it's job without being intrusive, AND it's nowhere near the resource hog that Norton AV is.
Ghost isn't as big as it used to be, and the rest is junk as you mentioned. I just needed to add in the corporate AV... it's their one decent product. If Symantec goes under, I won't miss all the other products, but the corporate AV would be missed.
The enemy of your enemy not withstanding... (Score:3, Interesting)
"We shouldn't have to buy 3
Re:The enemy of your enemy not withstanding... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The enemy of your enemy not withstanding... (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think MS is being taken to task for not incorporating software like AV scanners, they're taking flak for making them so very necessary to begin with.
MS is in the business of building foundations. The ground shifts, foundations crack, leak and become less stable. Many companies exist that provide pump systems to drain leakage, patches for fixing crack
oblig. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:oblig. (Score:3, Funny)
* Was that loud enough?
With this volume management software they're talking about, everything's loud enough wooot!
Re:Interesting ploy (Score:2)
Remind me, when was the Golden Age of cooperation ?
Re:Interesting ploy (Score:3, Insightful)
The Golden Age was in my youth, like it has always been. We absorb values from our surroundings as kids, and forever afterwards consider those values to define "normal", so any deviation from those rules make our subconscious scream "abnormal !". Since the surroundings we absorbed the values from matches them perfectly, and since our current environment most likely doesn't (the world isn't static, after all), our youth will always seem like a Golden Age
Re:Interesting ploy (Score:2)
B: There's already a version Symantec Antivirus (and other products) already available for Vista
C: Very likely
Sick of Lawsuits? (Score:5, Interesting)
Am I the only person sick to death of all the lawsuits and patents?
It seems like the world is getting more and more "locked down".
There is less and less anyone can do without knowingly or unknowlingly trampling someone else's IP.
To make matters worse there are Patent Trolls, locking up broad patents with the hopes of suing people to make money.
Those who can't sue.
All this has lead me to question the presumptions behind both copyrights and patents.
They were originally designed to spur innovation by protecting the people who invest their time and resources to research and develop new products or create original content.
It *SEEMS* to me that both are now acheiving the oppsite goal and limiting and hurting innovation.
While I don't think we can just get rid of either overnight, I think some careful consideration needs to go into reforming the laws to make sure that they serve their original purposes.
Just some thoughts that this discussion brought up for me...Cheers.
Re:Sick of Lawsuits? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sick of Lawsuits? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and I think most of the major companies are also sick of it. Unfortunately it's turning into an arms race and just sitting around being a pacifist just means you get flattened by someone with a bigger pile of patents than you.
It's impossible to write any software without infringing someone's patent and I've heard it used as a reason _not_ to open-source stuff. "We have no business reason to open-source this, but we'd like to for the b
By the time Vista comes out... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:By the time Vista comes out... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:By the time Vista comes out... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:By the time Vista comes out... (Score:2)
Re:By the time Vista comes out... (Score:2)
Re:By the time Vista comes out... (Score:4, Interesting)
This is particularly vital for so-called high availability and extremely large architecture systems for which companies pay a lot of money: it takes time to work out all the bugs in complex failover systems. The results are often unfortunate: basic system and debugging tools and especially security patches are not available for those systems. I'm afraid that XP and 2003 are going to be considered "good enough" for a long time, and if it's not, the open-source 64-bit operating systems will have gained quite a lot more market share.
Delayed?? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Delayed?? What an OMINOUS name... (Score:2)
Re:Delayed?? (Score:2)
Re:Delayed?? (Score:3, Interesting)
Volume management technology? (Score:2)
-- n
Re:Volume management technology? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Volume management technology? (Score:5, Informative)
TFA is light on details as to exactly what bits are violating an agreement, but given this stuff has been around since Windows 2000 it's fairly safe to say it's reasonably well embedded into the OS - lots of stuff depends on those hooks now.
Irony! (Score:5, Insightful)
Think about it, how many of us linux users are regularly downloading a virus cleaning program?
Symantec suing MS is like Karl Rove suing the republican party. It may be valid, but one would not exist without the other. That's just funny to me.
rhY
Re:Irony! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Irony! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Irony! (Score:2)
Re:Irony! (Score:2)
Re:Irony! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Irony! (Score:4, Informative)
This is an interesting timeline [infoplease.com] It lacks some details but gives an idea of importance virus played in history.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Irony! (Score:2)
Re:Irony! (Score:3, Informative)
That may be true but what percentage of the virii in the past 10 years have been for Apple computers? Look at the last 3 years and tell me if you can find a non-MS virus to hit the street... OK, I will accept that there have been some for mobile phones etc. but for PCs???
Re:Irony! (Score:5, Funny)
Heh, Apple leading the way and M$ playing catch-up, again?
Re:Irony! (Score:5, Insightful)
More delays = Longer time until Microsoft's bundled security = More Symantec products sold
You get the picture.
Re:Irony! (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft is the one that realy bit the hand. They attained an antivirus company and talked about giving it away with Vista. I'm not sure if thats still the idea but it would signal symantec that netscape syndrome could be happening there. Now if symantec can make Vista expensive enough because of licensing fees, they will generate the same amount
Re:Irony! AGAIN! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Irony! (Score:3, Informative)
If I had a dollar for every RHEL/Oracle/Veritas DMP setup I had to troubleshoot I could've retired already and I've only been doing it for a year...
Re:Irony! (Score:2)
Regulary : http://www.clamav.net/ [clamav.net]
Re:Irony! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Irony! (Score:3, Insightful)
I ask again - what can the OS do to prevent a user with the root password from screwing up the system? Someone has to be able to install software and perform system updates. Unless you mandate that all software must be signed with one of a small number of trusted keys, how do you propose to prevent someone from writing trojans and tricking people into installing them?
since users are encouraged not t
quite a case they got.. (Score:2, Insightful)
2 words. holy
Re:quite a case they got.. (Score:2)
In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
Microsoft announces another edition of Windows Vista; Windows Vista Forever.
In celebration of it's release, ID Software and Microsoft are teaming up to release Duke Nukem Forever on the same day!
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Interesting)
3DRealms, not id. Way to botch a lame joke.
Re:In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
Funny that DNF has taken so long, people have forgotten who the developer is!
I wonder if in five years, we'll forget who owned the Vista project and start blaming Linus!
heh, on second thought, maybe we will!
Re:In other news... (Score:3, Interesting)
In sports results, "DNF" means "did not finish". Coincidence? I think not.
(if this is a well known fact, i'll rephrase that to "coincidence? I don't think")
Well... (Score:3, Funny)
Anyway, M$ can't afford to stall the launch any further, which means the users will have to pay for Symantec's share.
Hell, M$ might even start thinking more about security just to piss off Symantec. Or maybe put them out of business entirely, because they live like a parasite on M$.
Re:M$ .... start thinking more about security (Score:2, Interesting)
You are missing the point that if they could do security, they would. They're not making horrid software on purpose -- this really is the best they can do. It's sad, really. There are ten new viruses a day. Millions of zombie bots wreak havoc on the internet. Botmaster spamkings brazenly demand ransom and shut down opponents with traffic storms. Absolutely no other OS from any source provides a fertile ground for this menace to grow. The only possible cure for this absurdity would be to ban Microsoft
Re:M$ .... start thinking more about security (Score:2)
You see, as long as companies like symantec are out there, Microsoft has an ace in the hole. It can push security off onto site admins and disclaim responsibility if an incedent occures. Now recently, the general public has described security as a bigger importance. They are puplicaly chastising microsoft for holes in software, bugs and glitch
Re:Well... So, humm Symantec, how much u want? (Score:2)
(Picking themselves up from floor, ms lies again and chortles) THAT KIND OF MONEY DOESN'T EVEN EXIST!
Hmmm... (Score:4, Funny)
Hehe, you too eh (Score:2)
Probably ain't true but still. This is MS we are talking about. If they can lie about something, they will.
if I were a technology company (Score:5, Insightful)
Semantec and its technology is annoying. Microsoft and its technology is annoying. Both have insidious business tactics (lifetime subscription, or die?).
I have a hard time picking which of these two companies is telling the truth here. Okay, it's slashdot, I'll align (reluctantly) with Semantec. A paragraph from an article:
The courts will have to arbitrate, but I wonder that Microsoft went into that contract under a huge smoke screen, all smarmy and friendly -- Semantec probably thought they were getting a backstage pass, a partnership to be the virus, etc., technology provider with Microsoft for the long anticipated Vista.
Vista: (from definition 2., Merriam Webster): an extensive mental view (as over a stretch of time or a series of events)
Semantec probably saw themselves in some kind of mindshare with Microsoft. Not much of a "vista" now? Frankly, when you look at the scattered remains of former companies at the hands of Microsoft it seems a wonder any company would enter into partnerships with them (Citrix, Stacker (is that what it was called?, etc.).
If I were a technology company, I'd only take one of two paths: I'd either formulate a strategy such that when my products are mature and interesting enough to Microsoft, I'd sell the technology and company outright (hello Visio), or I'd absolutely refuse to work with them at all. Anything in between seems to be a kiss of betrayal.
Of course a company always has to consider the heavy price that might be paid by not cooperating at all with Microsoft. Remember Netscape? And Microsoft has demonstrated the price to pay for that kind of bullying ("Janet Reno can go to Hell.") is one they're willing to absorb.
Well, a rambling post, but no solution to the Microsoft juggernaut. Hang in there Google!
Re:if I were a technology company (Score:2, Redundant)
Semantec probably saw themselves in some kind of mindshare with Microsoft. Not much of a "vista" now? Frankly, when you look at the scattered remains of former companies at the hands of Microsoft it seems a wonder any company would enter into partnerships with them (Citrix, Stacker (is that what it was called?, etc.).
What astounds me is that anyone still partners with MS. They eat everybody that gets in bed with them.
Re:if I were a technology company (Score:2)
selling the company often won't work (Score:2)
Example: compiler vendors
Re:if I were a technology company (Score:2)
Now they might have been able to grow larger - but they did set the natural price of a browser at 0, then complained when someone else matched their price. Once they lawyered up they started looking more like SCO than a tech company and fell out of r
Re:if I were a technology company (Score:2)
Wrong. Yes, Netscape gave their browser away for free to end-users, but they fully expected to be able to make a profit in the long run by selling enhanced versions to companies, offering services, and probably some advertising business. But they did not complain when Microsoft gave away Internet Explorer for free. They complained when Microsoft bundled Internet Explorer with Windows. And in the pro
Summary is wrong (Score:5, Informative)
Instead, Symantec is alleging that Microsoft stole trade secrets from them (this is the contractual violation part) incorporated them into Vista (hence the petition for injunction).
Patents come into the picture because Symantec is also alleging the Microsoft filed for patents on this technology, claiming to have invented it itself.
Re:Summary is wrong (Score:5, Informative)
Symantec is putting forth this lawsuit because it now owns Veritas. Veritas is the best volume management software available. It is light years ahead of any competition -- and if Microsoft steals these 'trade secrets', they have every right to go after them in court. I don't think we are seeing another SCO trying to slow the inevitable death...or a company trying to pimp its virus protection.
Re:Summary is wrong (Score:2)
Now I know. You can sue them once they steal their technology.
It does take balls though. MS can afford to spend anybody under the table dragging the case through the court system. Hell if SCO can keep dragging IBM through the so called american justice system for three years without ever even concretely making an accus
Not so fast on that injunction... (Score:3, Interesting)
The recent Supreme Court decision has (almost) put an end to injunctions. Since the damages in patent cases are restricted to "actual" (meaning lost business profit) damages, it is hardly worth the bother.
Expect to see patent holders pretty much ignored by all large companies, from now on.
Re:Not so fast on that injunction... (Score:2, Interesting)
Damages could be based on a projected loss of existing market share suffered by Symantec as a result of a competing, infringing product. The Supreme Court did NOT rule against injunctions (which can be imposed prior to the outcome of a trial). The Supreme Court ruled only that damages must be considered in the decision to grant an injunction. The decision makes it harder
I can see it now. (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft released its latest patch set today for all versions of it's Windows Operating systems.
24 May 2006.
Symantec Products Failing en-mass.
Reports are coming in from all over the world today that Symantecs software is failing on all versions of windows, Symantec cannot explain it, and microsoft are not commenting.
sigh...
Re:I can see it now. (Score:2, Insightful)
Wow, MS upgrades that intentionally target third party competition? That's sure never happened before...oh wait. QEMM anyone?
Britney Spears Plans Second Baby (Score:4, Funny)
I disagree.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Come on, guys! It has NOTHING to do with viruses! (Score:5, Informative)
You apparently have forgotten that Symantec now owns Veritas -- you know, the company that had probably the most-used volume management software out there? Need I remind you that Veritas Volume Manager has been a part of Windows for many years? Windows 2000 even had VxVM incorporated into it. When you have a 2000 or XP disk that is configured as "dynamic" instead of "basic", you're looking at a Veritas Volume Manager disk, not a straight NTFS/FAT32 disk.
Even the article itself (emphases mine) says:
Microsoft said in a statement that the suit "stems from a very narrow disagreement" over terms of a contract with Veritas to license volume management technology, which allows operating systems to handle large amounts of data.
Apparently, Symantec either thinks that Microsoft has misappropriated the technology that they use in Veritas Volume Manager and incorporated it into Vista without giving Symantec that they want or they're using this as an excuse for a money grab. Either way, this has nothing to do with Microsoft's anti-virus product.
Re:Come on, guys! It has NOTHING to do with viruse (Score:4, Informative)
Though that worked out well for the primaries of stacker ($600 million settlement, or something like that), the company failed during litigation........
One wonders if Microsoft is trying to "phase out" Symantec in the same fashion. Obviously, they believe it is cheaper to litigate/settle than license or buyout.
Re:Come on, guys! It has NOTHING to do with viruse (Score:3, Interesting)
Technically, you may be right. Practically though, it'd be very difficult fo Symantec to challenge MS' anti-virus offering and succeed on merit. Many big-time legal battles are fought to achieve something other than stated in the suit... SCO vs IBM being a prime example.
Symantec would love it if MS continued to remain their biggest source of revenue. And for that, MS has to keep releasing virus-p
Re:Come on, guys! It has NOTHING to do with viruse (Score:2, Interesting)
Volume Management??? (Score:4, Funny)
Holy cow, maybe Vista WONT suck.
Ignore that man behind the curtain! (Score:2)
But only after the delay because it would be all Symantec's fault, every bit of it, nothing whatever to do with slipping schedules.
So says Oz the great and terrible.
Yay! Volume manager! (Score:5, Funny)
So all my MP3's will play around the same volume with me having to fiddle with the speaker controls! Yessss!
Oh, wait. Nevermind.
Re:Yay! Volume manager! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Yay! Volume manager! (Score:2)
Alternatively, get almost any portable media player and use RockBox on it.
Just in the nick of time... (Score:2)
How much cash is Billy going to "settle" for so that they can hold back the launch of the biggest piece of vapor in history?
No, not really. (Score:4, Informative)
Here is the filing (Score:2, Informative)
The Meeting... (Score:3, Funny)
SYM: (in DR EVIL vioce) "ONE BILLION DOLLARS!"
MS: "a billion?!"
SYM: "Well, ya see, we gotta pay out taxes..."
Throw me anywhere but the Briar patch! (Score:2)
It's nice to be able to say I told you so, even if (Score:3, Interesting)
Live by the sword, die by the sword... (Score:3, Insightful)
-- Steve Balmer on Linux and patents.
remember shiva? (Score:3, Interesting)
MS then distributed IE for free and never paid a penny to them.
i remember that MS recently did lose a lawsuit for this, but the damage was done
Re:Fine, delay it (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hypocrisy (Score:2, Insightful)
DRM + Anti-piracy = improving? (Score:2)
If you call adding DRM and further anti-piracy measures "improving", then I hope that they will be "improving" their products, even if it does mean a few more delays.
Re:DRM + Anti-piracy = improving? (Score:3, Interesting)
Look at it this way, vista will catch up to apple and KDE/Gnome. That means apple, kde and gnome will have to innovate and get ahead again. It creates competition which benefits everyone. We get 5 years of n
Correction (Score:2)
Re:Meh (Score:2)
I think you are stretching it a bit to leave out software, though. I don't think I've ever seen anyone here say that the entire patent system should be scrapped.