Captain America vs. The Patriot Act? 303
Nerd_52637 writes "Yesterday, Marvel Comics released the first in its miniseries Civil War, which can only be described as a gutsy comic-book series focusing on the whole debate over homeland security and tighter government controls in the name of public safety.
The seven-issue series once again puts superheroes right back in the thick of real-world news, just as DC Comics has Batman battling al-Qaeda in a soon-to-appear comic and Marvel's X-Men continue to explore themes of public intolerance and discrimination.
In Civil War, hero is pitted against hero in the choice of whether or not to side with the government, as issues ranging from a Guantanamo-like prison camp for superheroes, embedded reporters and the power of media all play in the mix as Superheroes are ordered to register as human WMDs or be branded fugitives."
Been there, done that (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Been there, done that (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Been there, done that (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm... I disagree. While both awesome pieces of work, neither is really dealing with the issues of government control in the same way, if at all.
For one, the conspiracy in Watchmen is non-governmental: It's actually an exceedingly liberal private citizen (Adrian/Ozymandias) who is controlling public opinion and worldview. The government plays a strang side-role in this; they are environment, not actor.
And Astro City: Confession, while one of my all-time favorite comics, is really dealing with public opinion and its manipulation by authority in a much softer, more human-focused way.
Maybe a better example would be Frank Miller's Martha Washington books, or Elektra: Assassin. Still, I don't think anything out there invalidates this project.
Re:Been there, done that (Score:5, Informative)
I respectfully submit that when a person starts to think that they can cure all humanity's ills by themselves, that they are the only enlightened leader capable of doing so, and that the end justifies the means, even if the means is killing millions, that that person has no right to any political classification but Fascist.
If they were to proclaim it was in service of the greater good, of which they are merely the executive officer, then they might make a claim to the classification of Communist (specifically a Marxist-Leninist, 'vanguard of the proletariat' and all that).
In no way can it be claimed they are a liberal, not even in the distorted US meaning of the word.
This message brought to you by your local Political Education Officer.
MartRe:Been there, done that (Score:2)
Re:Been there, done that (Score:2)
Re:Been there, done that (Score:2)
CIA Secret Prisons vs. Amnesty International (Score:4, Insightful)
Then, last month, I read about the stunning news report by the "Washington Post" [belleville.com]. It reported on CIA-gate: the CIA, with the full approval of the president, has been running a network of secret prisons where enemies of the American nation are interrogated. Although this network is nowhere near the status of the Soviet gulag, the network does put tremendous credibility in the original accusations by AI.
At times like these, we need a Captain America to fight for truth, justice, and Western values. A network of secret prisons grossly violates the most sacred of Western values.
Re:CIA Secret Prisons vs. Amnesty International (Score:5, Funny)
As well as a plunger and some Scotch tape.
Re:CIA Secret Prisons vs. Amnesty International (Score:2)
I'm sorry but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:CIA Secret Prisons vs. Amnesty International (Score:2, Insightful)
When one operates as a spy or irregular military operative traditionally they don't have near the same rights or protections as a uniformed military or diplomatic operative. But now things are different in terms of the medi
Re:CIA Secret Prisons vs. Amnesty International (Score:2)
er,
wait, isn't that what police states do?
Re:CIA Secret Prisons vs. Amnesty International (Score:3, Funny)
Re:CIA Secret Prisons vs. Amnesty International (Score:3)
It surprises me that a "card-carrying member" of AI wouldn't already have heard the extensive proof of our network of secret prisons when the story finally hit the mainstream news... Indy media such as Democracy Now have covered the topic every few months since 2004!
One from November 2004, an interview with Stephen Gray... [democracynow.org]
July 2004 with Michael Posner... [democracynow.org]
June 2004 (jus [democracynow.org]
Re:Been there, done that (Score:2)
Re:Been there, done that (Score:2)
Marvel tried this before with the Mutant Registration Act of the late 1980's (which figured into the X-Men titles for a while before it quietly disappeared).
Re:Been there, done that (Score:5, Funny)
I agree, that '80s stuff is so dated, I can't believe anyone would think it has any relevance to modern events. Most political commentary really has no relevence beyond a few months from publication date, so I don't understand why anyone would waste their time writing or reading it.
I'd write more, but I'm meeting a friend to see V for Vendetta in a few minutes.
Re:Been there, done that (Score:2)
Just because something is dated, doesn't mean it has no relevance. After all, many people claim Shakespeare has relevance to today's society. However I think everyone would agree it's clearly dated.
Re:Been there, done that (Score:2)
Humor through sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek faux-hypocracy.
Re:Been there, done that (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that V for Vendetta (although one could consider it fear mongering) is absolutely relevant today, just as it was when it was written.
I suppose OP might consider 1984 to be outdated as well, but I believe the basic story of a government exerting total and brutal control over the population is a timeless warning message.
Try reading the Watchmen again (Score:5, Interesting)
In the Watchmen the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan and threatens Pakistan, which nearly provokes World War III. Nowadays we invade Afghanistan and Iran, and no one does anything except quietly complain about American imperialism. It just isn't the same without another nuclear superpower.
Re:Been there, done that (Score:2)
Re:Been there, done that (Score:2)
Anyone remember the Mutant Registration Act [wikipedia.org]?
Re:Been there, done that (Score:3, Informative)
Also, that was the same guy ( I'm pretty sure ) that tried to screw Captain America out of his identity, which again is pretty much the same storyline.
Their argument was that they (the government) 'owned' the concept
Re:Been there, done that (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah, but will it be (Score:3, Funny)
OK, that flash has been overused recently, but Hero vs Hero? I couldnt resist!
Future issues with issues (Score:5, Funny)
I just know the issue where they make all the superheroes pile into a giant naked pyramid will be a big hit.
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know what you mean by "hard" evidence but we know for sure people have been waterboarded there and that's classified as torture. People have also been subjected to food and sleep deprivation, extremes of temprature, and being strapped in uncomfortable positions for extended periods in specially built devices. Finally people have been injected with various drugs.
Those have all been admitted to by the military itself. Not just allegations by prisoners. The military feels like those actions are not torture. But they again the military also feels like these human beings do not deserve all the rights specified under the UN human rights charter or the geneva conventions.
"the greatest complaint is that they are tried before a military tribunal instead of a civilian one (could be wrong, I hardly follow the issue)."
No the greatest complaint is that people have been severly tortured for extended periods of time. Those complaints are from people who were eventually let go. Perhaps you should follow the issue more closely. It's your country after all and you are somewhat responsible for what it does.
Having said that who know what's going there? It's not like any of us are allowed visits and even the red cross has to ask permission and schedule a visit. Nobody is stupid enough to torture people in front of visiting congressmen and red cross. They probably clean up for those visits.
Finally when the red cross asked to interview prisoners privately they were refused. The military would not allow it. Take that for what it's worth. I remember Saddam didn't want his scientists interviewed privately by the weapons inspectors before the war too.
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:5, Insightful)
If the methods used at Guantanamo disturbed the FBI agents who visited (another source of problem reports early on), then the rest of us should be disturbed too.
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:2)
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:According to Geneva Convention they have NO rig (Score:3, Informative)
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Part
Re:You just don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
if you as an invader are attacked by citizens with guns, then you have to treat any subsequent prisoners as POWS - in fact any and ALL prisoners have to be treated as POWS under article 4 until proven otherwise
"illegial combatants" is a term made up by the current administration that doesnt even make sense...
Re:You just don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
Trouble is, most of the people in Guantanamo, weren't actually fighting at all.
And someone mod'ed that "insightful". (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.genevaconventions.org/ [genevaconventions.org] You won't find that stated as such in there.
What you will find is that
If the local authorities do not exist, you may be held until they are established.
Other than that, you have all the same rights and protections that a POW has, except for things like getting paid.
The military is not allowed to torture anyone it captures. Regardless of their past actions.
Re:And someone mod'ed that "insightful". (Score:2, Informative)
they aern't civliians because they engaged in war acts and they aren't awarded geneva protections as a POW because they didn't meet the
Re:And someone mod'ed that "insightful". (Score:3, Insightful)
The first tribunal was held in November 2004, a full three years after the first detainees were captured. (To be fair, the tribunals were delayed by about four months due to their legal statis being challenged in the US courts.)
The Geneva Convention doesn't state how long you have to wait to get your tribunal, though the US has laws against indefinite detention without trial. Nevertheless, it does state that you should be afforded all of the righ
Re:And someone mod'ed that "insightful". (Score:2)
I'm sure there's "entitled to a speedy decision by a competent tribunal" in there. If you want to treat them as unlawful combatants, you have to give then the tribunal as soon as reasonably practical.
Re:And someone mod'ed that "insightful". (Score:2)
The universal declaration of human rights covers all humans beings no matter what acts they may have comitted or how the president of the united states refers to them.
The only defense Bush has left is to redefine torture, which he as done.
"article 5 of GC iii decalres that if the status of an individual is in question (i.e. not a lawful enemy combatant and
Re:And someone mod'ed that "insightful". (Score:3, Insightful)
You appear to be under the mistaken belief that the people in Camp Delta were all captured in combat against US forces in Afghanistan or Iraq. Unfortunately, that is completely false. Some were; many were not.
In fact, the detainees include people like Bisher al-Rawi and Jamil el-Banna wh
Re:And someone mod'ed that "insightful". (Score:5, Insightful)
"Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention.".
The word "lawful" doesn't appear at all. The definitions you're talking about are prefaced with
"Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:"
The text relevant to those who don't fall under any of the POW categories is as follows:
Part I. General Provisions
Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.
Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.
In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:3, Insightful)
Also there have been many people released from guantanamo after two years of being there. Is the US releasing terrorists into afghanistan?
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:2)
What if you were not shooting at americans? What if you were a barber or a taxi driver or a baker?
Having said that I am all for treating these people as prisoners of war. That would improve their lot greatly.
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:3, Insightful)
I hope you are not telling me it's OK for the army to abduct me and force me to go through the special forces training.
"Not just in the U.S. but in many nations. The problem is that everyone has their own definition of torture."
Sure. The UN has defined torture in one way, the US laws have defined torture one way, this administration has defined torture another way. It
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:2)
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:2)
I don't think you'll be getting the bulk of torture evidence from military press releases.
As for drugs being used for non-medical reasons, check into Sodium Thiopental [wikipedia.org] and other places [telegraph.co.uk]
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:2)
Vladimir Bukovsky, an innocent Russian tortured by the Soviet Union's KGB [washingtonpost.com]:
Re:Future issues with issues (Score:3, Informative)
That's also along with 2 ex-Guantanamo employees who wrote books on their experiences, interviews with former Guantanamo detainees and FBI reports of abuse. Heck, the Department of Defense had to concede of instances of inappropriate actions like a female guard sitting
Re:It's true! Just ask Al Jazeera (Score:2)
Virtue is its own reward. (Score:2)
Big time. It doesn't matter if you've heard of "worse" being done in "training" or whatever.
In training, you always have the option to say "Fuck this, I quit". You do NOT have that option in captivity.
But 1 wrong and 1 right can.
Basically, you have several different scenarios:
#1. Inno
New motto of the Republican Party (Score:2)
"It's not fascism when *we* do it!"
In classic comic tradition (Score:5, Interesting)
Comics in general and Marvel in particular have had a long tradition in embracing social issues - witness the classic Marvel comic series that decried on McCarthyism. This one is interesting because they aren't really taking sides.
Of course, many cartoons these days are overtly political (Southpark, American Dad, Boondocks) - at least Marvel tries hard to let the readers make up their own minds and explore the issue themselves.
Re:In classic comic tradition (Score:3, Funny)
lol, wut? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or what? They'll arrest them? Superheroes are used to fighting other super-beings. If pissed off, how many puny humans could they kill before getting taken down?
This could turn out to be made of Win and Good after all.
Re:lol, wut? (Score:3, Insightful)
GURPs superheroes had a service where you could regist
I am such a nerd (Score:2)
Re:lol, wut? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:lol, wut? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:lol, wut? (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly.
The ones who agree to work with the government are now authorized -- perhaps even obligated -- to take down those who don't.
Re:lol, wut? (Score:2)
One word: (Score:2)
The issue of regular humans attempting to contorl the behaviour of superheroes has been covered dozens of times over the past 40 years, very prominently in one of the most popluar comic series of all time, the X-Men.
As another poster already commented, I'm such a geek.
Hardly brilliant. (Score:2, Insightful)
I would hardly call those two sentences brilliant, or even succinct for that matter. In fact, the third sentence does not even seem grammatically correct (though I could be wrong; English is my third language).
Re:Hardly brilliant. (Score:2)
When you can crush a man with your pinky finger or shoot lasers from your eyes... No one is going to tell you what they think your grammar skills.
Right subjects, wrong audience (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Right subjects, wrong audience (Score:4, Insightful)
Uh huh. And what would you say is the target demographic -- and the average age -- of today's comic book reader?
(Hint: Your first guess is wrong.)
Re:Right subjects, wrong audience (Score:2)
Why don't you tell us? I for one have no clue. I sort of understand the 80s were a silver age of comics, which would sugest that anyone who liked them then and still buys them would be in their mid 30s. But I don't have a clue... to me a comic book was something one bought as a kid as light reading on a long road trip... while certainly entertaining in order to get a full story one had to buy t
Re:Right subjects, wrong audience (Score:2)
Um... (Score:4, Interesting)
Geez, weren't the X-men already hiding from the government for being dangerous?
Try something more intelligent, people. Talk about the ISPs snooping on you, about the RIAA lobbying the congress, about the Patriot Act, DRM, DMCA and all that stuff that's being shoved down our throats.
But do it in the near future, present a fear-driven country, where all civil liberties are ALREADY lost. We want to see people being arrested for having analog TV's! For copying music in authorized formats! For using encryption in their e-mails! We want Big Brother! (in the comics, that is)
Try Identity Crisis. (Score:2)
Try reading Id
Re:Um... (Score:4, Insightful)
If they make them register (Score:4, Funny)
Whoever has HULK on their side would win H vs H (Score:2)
Re:Whoever has HULK on their side would win H vs H (Score:2)
Was already wondering when this is gonna come (Score:5, Insightful)
In reality, he'd have been approached by the feds ages ago and offered the choice to either work for them or, more likely, some dirt would've been dumped on him to have the media label him the greatest threat to humanity since Saddam, then he'd been hunted down 'til he's dead.
Face it. Government does NOT like power that isn't in its hands and under its control.
Happened all ready (Score:2)
It happened to Batman and Superman. Now mind you the President of the United States at the time was Lex Luthor but with Batman he was going after Bruce Wayne and accidently hired the only person who knew that he was a super hero.
Re:Was already wondering when this is gonna come (Score:2)
Nobody may save the day except for the authorized security forces. For the simple reason that if one man can save the day, and he decides to run for any political office, he has it. Hands down. I know, Schwarzenegger is a bad example, he would have won against Davis even without his popularity, but it sure as hell helped him into office.
Now replace a fiction hero with a real one
Will it get the sour taste of DK2 out of my brain? (Score:2)
This is about more than the theme (Score:5, Informative)
Not really all that noteworthy (Score:2)
Th
Eh the whole Registration thing won't work (Score:3, Insightful)
Scarlet Witch registers, ok cool. So the government now has her on file as a human (or humanoid really for the non human types as well) WMD. That's great. What the fuck does that do to stop a character, like old Scarlet, from going apeshit and destroying the entire fucking universe?
It's already technically done as well in another sense: villians. Example, take Thanos right. Villian, bad guy. Automatically you consider him a humanoid WMD right. Again same situation. Having him on file, does jack and or shit. So Uncle Sam keeps him on file, hell we'll go one step further, keeps GPS and the whole schebang on him 24/7. Yea when he gets a huge powerup like the Infinite Gauntlet, being able to scramble your military ain't shit. The only benefit it would have is if they notified heroes of such things apon villians. But it's not, since they are only doing Hero registration.
Either way it's somewhat of an old storyline that while a good one, seems to be a publicity stunt. Considering the current state of America, we're pretty unhappy with our government, our president and basically how restricted life has become. Leave it to Marvel to sellout for the all mighty $
Actually Scralet Witch did go apeshit (Score:2)
Actually, she did go apeshit and she did warp the reality at large. According to Marvel that this does play a role in this storyline but I don't know how because I haven't read either storyline.
Re:Actually Scralet Witch did go apeshit (Score:2)
Re:Eh the whole Registration thing won't work (Score:2)
Re:Eh the whole Registration thing won't work (Score:2)
Great, but are the superheroines... (Score:2)
Unfair! (Score:4, Funny)
Who's going to explain this comic to (Score:5, Funny)
City of Heroes (Score:2)
Slashdot heroes and villains (Score:5, Funny)
Heroes:
- First Poster
- Insightfull Man
- Super Funny
- Anonymous Coward
- Cmdr Taco
Villains:
- Grammar Nazi
- Insensitive Clod
- Mega Troll
- Anonymous Coward's Evil Twin
Re:Human WMD -- wrong story (Score:2)
Pull my finger.
Re:Superheroes always do The Right Thing(tm) (Score:2)
What comic books are you freaking reading (Score:3, Informative)
Have you even read any comic books lately? Let me tell you what has just gone on recently. Batman has had his mind erased by other superheros because he found out that Zatanna was presured into erasing the minds of villians by other super heroes. I just read a comic book where Giant Man is an abusive @sshole and sprays his wife (Wasp) wit
No (Score:2)
"Daaah, he is Ole, you are Sven...He is Ole, you are Svaaaaaan..."
Re:No (Score:2)
Stan Lee != Marvel Comics (Score:2)
I think I'm actually getting geekier by the post with this story
Re:Stan shold retire (Score:2)
Oh hell yeah.
Kidding aside, I'm just having a problem with the notion of equating terrorists with the heros I grew up loving.
Book: Brave Men Run (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Why "gutsy" (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure. When it comes with the risk of financial losses.
People, and the organizations we create, have a remarkable capacity for adapting to the status quo. Formulas for easy success, even small successes, are to the businessman what crack is to an addict.
It's artists who want to do something different, even he's working in the framework of an old formula. To the businessman, originality has utility, but isn't a va