U.S. House Clears Anti-Internet Gambling Bill 283
matr0x_x writes "The U.S. has just moved one step closer to banning all Internet gambling sites when the US House of Representatives cleared an anti-Internet gambling bill yesterday. The bill is against a World Trade Organization ruling last August that stated the US must not block online gambling sites based overseas." From the article: " The bill, cleared by voice vote in the House Financial Services Committee, would prohibit a gambling business from accepting credit cards, checks, wire transfers and electronic funds transfers in illegal gambling transactions. Unlawful gambling, under the legislation, would include placing bets on online poker sites, for example, and any other online wager made or received in a place where such a bet is illegal under federal or state law."
How it's written is what matters (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2)
-nB
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:5, Insightful)
When oh when will we be able to get people in govt. that will understand that if you're 18/21, you are a freaking ADULT, and can decide for yourself matters like these?
I am so fscking tired of the government trying to legislate morality and behavior.....
Prohibition, Gambling, & Nazis (Score:3, Interesting)
Hmmm, ever tried looking up anti-semitic sites on Yahoo from France? Tried bidding on swastika-embellished merchandise on eBay from Germany? The problem is they are making US-based companies responsible for the Actions of their citizens.
Because many US states license gambling in some form or another, some assume this is just a pissing match over something the US hasn't figured out how to tax, yet. However, the
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:4, Funny)
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:5, Interesting)
I wouldn't be using the US financial system to fund the account, it would be my British (where this is legal, regulated, and presumably taxed) account, transferring money to a British online casino (pokerstars, for example). I would be using US wires to notify them to do this, but I'm not notifying them to do anything illegal (under their laws), so not running afoul of wire statutes...
Would this work? If so, I can see a huge business opportunity for overseas banking for the little guy, as opposed to the big corporation which uses a similar dodge to avoid taxes.
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:4, Informative)
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2)
The easiest way it seems to get a bank account in England is to come in from overseas with a work visa and jobs lined up through employment agents.
A friend of mine went there as a teacher and the employment agent set her up not only a bank account but also a company in one of those tax havens so that she didn't have to worry about income tax either.
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2)
The article says: "By making it illegal to accept payments from people who live where federal or state law prohibits wagering..." so jurisdiction would be based on the customer, not the financial system.
Governments jealously guard their right to regulate the behavior of their citizens. Whether or not they should is a whole 'nother question, but they will.
Your idea, however clever, sounds like a whole new level of gambling, with the prize being a taxpayer-funded vacation in an orange jumpsuit, alas!
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:5, Informative)
Also, members of the public are not normally eligible for an account with the Bank of England as it is more of a national financial institution (like the Federal Reserve in the USA) controlling national interest rates etc rather than a normal bank.
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2, Informative)
They
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:3, Informative)
Yup, the US demands that you declare income earned even while you are not resident in the US of A (for citizens, resident aliens (green card), people with work-permits). It's like a sexually transmitted disease but you have less fun catching it.
Extra gotcha. Money you earn overseas and pay taxes on overseas (overseas in this case means outside the USA) is also liable to US taxation. But they will credit some percentage of the money you pai
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2, Interesting)
What happened to the state rights? (Score:2)
Re:What happened to the state rights? (Score:2)
Lovely interstate commerce clause, there.
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2)
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2)
>How is the US going to prosecute my Timbuktoo company?
Same as it does with any other defendant located outside the USA. It first asks the foreign gov't to hand over the defendant for trial, and then, if refused, applies pressure. The pressure varies, depending on many diplomatic factors.
When elephants fight, the grass gets trampled.
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2)
Re:How it's written is what matters (Score:2)
This will just shoot US companies.
This is definitely right wing Republican legislation.
The way I see it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The way I see it (Score:4, Funny)
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Way too many uses of the word Linux, and the find/replaced screwed up once and left Mac in there.
Re:The way I see it (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The way I see it (Score:2)
I'm not sure that the feds profit all that much from the dozens of casinos on Native American reservations, either. Or maybe they do...?
Re:The way I see it (Score:3, Insightful)
Am I the only one thinking along those lines? Can anyone recommend a country? My ideal country wouldn't be hot, reasonable taxes, lowish cost of living, lots of freedom, easy immigration laws.
Re:The way I see it (Score:2)
Re:The way I see it (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, if it was legal in the US then a percentage of the profits would be collected as income taxes, rather than being forced overseas, and could be used for government purposes such as education or blowing up things or whatever floats your boat.
Casinos generate a lot of taxes for State and Federal governments, this legislation strikes me as mis guided morality crossed with protectionism of the casinos and State lotteries.
Re:The way I see it (Score:4, Insightful)
Many state governments make money from horse racing, including bets placed over the internet. Not surprisingly, online horse racing is excluded from the ban.
And if I'm going to be taxed buying a book at Amazon, why shouldn't people be taxed who want to gamble in off-shore sites?
Gambling income is already taxed, no matter where the site is.
Once again (Score:4, Insightful)
Contact your Reps and tell them to kill this crap.
Don't bother... (Score:4, Insightful)
Cool (Score:2, Insightful)
What? No drugs, no hookers and no gambling?
Still at least you get excellent TV shows
Re:Cool (Score:2)
Re:Cool (Score:2)
Man: If I give you $5, will you use it to get drunk?
Bum: No
Man: Will you use it to go gambling?
Bum: No
Man: Will you come home with me so I can show my wife what happens to people who don't drink and gamble?
In all seriousness, I don't care. I'd prefer that they just legalize gambling online, through US sites only. And can't this bill be challenged as overriding states rights
Tribal Gaming (Score:2, Insightful)
Bill actually clears the House Financial Services (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Bill actually clears the House Financial Servic (Score:2)
Middle-Earth Bowl 2006 (Score:5, Funny)
Gimme 10 G's on the Shire Hobbits in the 3rd [movie].
There's nothing in it for them-- (Score:5, Insightful)
If the government could find a way to track it and then TAX it this would not be an issue.
This is already done with alcohol, tobacco, and tangible items.
Because they cannot capture the technology genie in a bottle they can't effectively tax it.
And there are plenty of lobbyists working for taxable gambling interests who have issue with the wild-west of internet gambling as well.
Re:There's nothing in it for them-- (Score:2)
Of course, the casinos themselves are not taxed.
Re:There's nothing in it for them-- (Score:2)
Re:There's nothing in it for them-- (Score:2)
The thing is, they indirectly do tax internet gambling. If you win big and withdrawl that money there's an electronic trail. Sure, most people do not claim gambling winnings, but the IRS has 5 years to find that trail. Any significant amount of money will eventually be noticed. Sure, the government would like to tax it both ways (tax the business recieving the money, and the players who win the money), although I'm su
Re:There's nothing in it for them-- (Score:2)
All forms of gambling? (Score:5, Funny)
Ohhhhhh, not *that* kind of gambling....silly me.
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:2)
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:5, Funny)
Tell that to the people who play in the big poker competitions. See what they have to say about that.
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:2)
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:2)
Then, on the other hand, you have people that see horse racing as a game of skill. Yes, there's always the possibility that unforeseen circumstances will hit a horse, but it can happen on the stock exchange too.
When you know people that own mansions on the beach, buy brand new BMWs each year, spend tens of thousands of dollars with you and still have over $100,000 to play with each year, you have to begin
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:2)
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:2)
Yeah, but betting is all skill.
I don't play online poker because I can't bluff people out, or read theirs. That makes it gambling, but in a casino or at a hall - it is recognized as a skill.
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:2)
One could argue the reverse is true. In poker, skill is much more important than luck in the long term. And if you believe the efficient market hypothesis [wikipedia.org], stock markets are mostly luck. (Although with a positive expected value, unlike most forms of gambling).
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:2)
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:2)
Wait just a damn minute...
Re:All forms of gambling? (Score:2, Funny)
...or words to that effect.
The funny bits (Score:5, Insightful)
Buhwahahaha!! Can you say steroids?!? Can you say overblown contracts?!? There can't be a threat to something they don't have.
A group called the Poker Players Alliance opposed the legislation as well.The Poker Players Alliance - a stalwart group of poker-playing heroes, determined to defend truth, justice, and the right to draw to an inside straight!
Re:The funny bits (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The funny bits (Score:2)
That's fine as far as it goes. But tell me this: why should "professional" athletes get paid these millions when their college counterparts get paid nothing, for playing basically the same sport? Is a baseball player actually worth $20 million dollars simply because he's a good baseball player? If that's so, then why isn't a top-notch programmer worth a few million? Is
Re:The funny bits (Score:2)
No performance, no money next time your contract is up for renewal.
This creates an incentive to 'cheat'. Doesn't matter if it's steroids or what, but it takes away from the integrity of the game.
Let me get this straight (Score:5, Interesting)
So, today, its legal to do money transfers for illegal gambling?
So, today, in my state, the government is the only legal gambling outfit? (lottery)
So, its illegal for me to do business in another country according to their laws?
I don't gamble beyond retirement funds, insurance, and whatnot.
Here is interesting, and typical situations from those that "win" the lottery: http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Savinganddebt
In the end, nothing will change. Offshore gambling will be no different.
Lotto (Score:3, Funny)
I wish we could go back to the days of mafia run numbers rackets. They usually had 80% + return when not fixed.
Current state lottos are 50% return best case and taxable as well.
And remember, that $5 NCAA tourney poool is technically illegal in most places, evildoer....
Re:Let me get this straight (Score:2)
Of course, not everybody buys lottery tickets. I would suspect that a disproportionate percentage of lottery ticket buyers are people who don't have any money to begin wit
Encouraging money laundering... (Score:5, Interesting)
Right now, most sites offer the ability to write an e-check directly from a player's bank account to the poker site. However, virtually all sites also offer deposit via Neteller or Firepay. Since the latter method is not traceable since the 2 companies are not based in the US, players will just opt to use that method now.
So what this bill is effectively doing is encouraging people to launder how they cash in and out of poker sites. It will do nothing to stop people from actually playing.
Re:Encouraging money laundering... (Score:2)
Re:perhaps not fully (Score:2)
Re:perhaps not fully (Score:2)
RTFA (Score:5, Informative)
"The bill now moves fo the House floor for consideration."
Not that it's impossible it will pass anyway, but please guys, get it right. It's not that hard.
This is why Congress will be changing soon.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Like the passage of the DMCA, it's just another example of a stupid congress that tries to legislate something that it knows nothing about.
Re:This is why Congress will be changing soon.... (Score:2)
If you are talking about a realignment to the Democrats, you will soon realize that the Democrats are as rabid nannie-state authoritarians as the Republics. If fact, placing restrictions on video games, websites, online gambling, etc., is one of those "centrist" issues that Democrats and Republicans usually join forces on.
No, the only thing that will happen next election
From the summary... (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? This is another example of jurisdiction over the internet being called into question. My first though on reading the article was whether restrictions would apply to the casino, the gamblers or both. I'd imagine they'd almost certainly apply to the casinos - make it illegal for casinos based on servers in the US to accept electronic payment - but would it also be illegal for US citizens to place bets?
FTFA:
I don't see how this works. If a casino is outside the U.S's jurisdiction, they shouldn't be able to be held to any U.S. laws. Sure, you can outlaw this behaviour by making it illegal for a citizen to place a bet, or more likely by forbidding U.S. financial services (e.g. banks) from processing the request, but surely you can't affect those to whom U.S. laws don't apply?
Or perhaps I'm wrong, and you can - in which case, I'm worried about the precedent that would set. Is there a limit to the extent a country can create laws that affect those who are 'unaffected' by that country's laws? To a certain extent it's reasonable, but since this case involves two jurisdictions, with the casino outside the U.S.' jurisdiction and the gambler essentially going to the virtual casino to do business, it seems unreasonable. It's like the U.S. making it illegal for Mexican casinos to allow Americans to gamble there...
Re:From the summary... (Score:2)
Re:From the summary... (Score:3, Interesting)
The WTO did rule that the US couldn't prohibit online gambling, but it was later narrowed to only online horse racing, so the submitter is indeed wrong.
And the WTO has no real power to tell the US not to. That's the beauty of being a sovereign nation.
Here you are sorely mistaken. The WTO has the power to leverage punitive fines against the US if we don't
Re:From the summary... (Score:3, Insightful)
I move to America, to a state where gambling is illegal.
I connect to CasinoRouletteMillions.com (made up URL; may exist, I haven't checked)
I place a bet using my credit card, on the digit 0, for my full credit limit.
It doesn't come in.
I contact my card company and demand they charge back the amount, thus clearing my balance.
The casino can not challenge the charge back. The card is an American card; the transaction was under American laws. So either the casino accepts the charge back,
Im No Law Expert... (Score:2, Informative)
Ah, the Great Land of Freedom (Score:3, Interesting)
This is the problem that happens when old men who are scared of anything new make decisions that affect other people. I am confident that the main problem with online gambling is that it is harder for the government to regulate than meatspace gambling. When the pie becomes virtual, it's harder for regulators to get their piece.
I'm not a proponent of online gambling (or gambling in general, though I do participate in the occasional poker tournament or hockey pool), but I think that this sort of regulation is a little ridiculous. Legislate elsewhere, O Government, where you can be beneficial to society. Why not start on the patent system? Why not figure out how to respond to natural disasters? Why not just about anything else?
The biggest problem here is that most of the politicans making decisions like this are old men that tend not to understand what they are making decisions about. The great hope for actual freedom in the USA is that, in time, the people will start to become more acclimatized to technology and will be able to make more informed decisions about the uses thereof.
jeez (Score:2, Funny)
Crap! If this passes... (Score:3, Funny)
Good. (Score:3, Interesting)
Do you think I would get away with it if I moved to Thailand and set up a website partypot.com, selling baggies of marijuana to Americans? This is no different.
Fed and States are hypocrites (Score:2)
"More Profit for Las Vegas and Atlantic City Bill" (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm guessing that the Internet Gambling bill is like the Internet Porn [wikipedia.org] bill. After the Internet Porn bill passed, the only porn available in the U.S. on the internet was on Playboy's web site and on the web sites of other traditional porn sellers. It was not difficult to guess that porn magazines paid congress people for the bill, which was soon overturned.
Now brick-and-mortar gambling companies and maybe the lotteries run by states apparently want to restrict "gambling" to ways in which they can profit.
There is no gambling in "gambling" or "gaming". If you play enough, you will ALWAYS lose exactly the percentage they say you will lose. "Gambling" is a tax on those who don't understand the mathematics of statistics.
Bills should be named by some other group than those who sponsor them. Maybe the Internet Gambling bill should be named the "More Profit for Las Vegas and Atlantic City Bill".
--
The movie Loose Change, 2nd Edition [google.com] claims, basically, that the U.S. government was overthrown.
Re:"More Profit for Las Vegas and Atlantic City Bi (Score:3, Insightful)
You should probably qualify this with "Gambling against the house". Playing online poker against other players is not the same as pulling a virtual slot machine handle. I would liken it to other "games" such as golf, bowling, bridge, etc. Those who are skilled in the game have a decided ad
Re:"More Profit for Las Vegas and Atlantic City Bi (Score:2)
Gambling is any behavior involving risking money or valuables on the outcome of a game, contest, or other event in which the outcome of that activity depends partially or totally upon chance or upon one's ability to do something. Those who do understand mathematics and probability are those who usually win. The state lottery, for example, is a tax on those who don't understand math. Casino's gamble just as much as their custome
Re:"More Profit for Las Vegas and Atlantic City Bi (Score:2)
While I agree with you in the general case, I can think of hypothetical situations in which gambling is worthwhile -- where your valuation function becomes very non-linear. For example, suppose you were going to be shot in the head in twenty-four hours unless you could come up with one million dollars.
Bout time (Score:3, Insightful)
Once we have the bulk of the population under the regulatory oversight of the criminal justice system we'll be able to force those godless, indecent hoardes into our nice, Republican cookie-cutter mold of outward piety and ethical lip service.
Long live the Republican party! Long live the Justice Department!
Re:Bout time (Score:2)
Humm... I guess I could vote Democrats for next election and have them protect me against violent video games.
Since Prohibition worked so well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Most credit card companies quit processing direct transactions to PokerStars, Ultimate Bet, and Full Tilt in the last 12-18 months. I did find some local banks' debit cards will work on all 3 of those, but no majors like Visa and MasterCard.
And as some have pointed out, FirePay and other indirect transactions will not be affected.
The stupidity of this is that several major US casinos had on-line poker business plans in the works only to see the feds rain on their parade. If you had a choice to play online poker with a off-shore site or a "branded" U.S. site like Harrah's, which would you choose?
The casinos would almost certainly give incentives and freebies for on-line players to visit their brick and mortar (or plastic and neon, if you prefer) locations, helping local economies while raking in TAXABLE revenue from both.
This is a mostly useless law that will do little to impact on-line gaming in the U.S. (unless of course they contract the R.I.A.A. to kick in grandma's door while she's playing
Re:About Prohibition... (Score:3, Informative)
Does Gambling include E-bay? (Score:2)
Heck, even when I buy something online from anything but a Tier I retailer (e.g., Amazon, NewEgg), I feel like I'm gambling with my money.
I call Bullshit (Score:2)
But then when online gambling takes tax money away from the US Government, Congress immediately goes about making it illegal/impossible to access/use gambling sites on the internet.
I guess I can always mail cash to the gambling site in a large manila envelope. Until congress makes a law telling me that I'm not even allowed to mail my own money where I
The Real Reason for this Legislation... (Score:3, Insightful)
It just so happens that we have scummy enough politicians in power that are happy to make it happen.
With internet gambling shut down the only place people will be able to gamble are brick/mortar casinos, and, of course, state sponsored lotteries.
What you'll hear from these politicians is some baloney about gambling addiction, or maybe even the obligatory "what about the children!?" plea. I absolutely hate these people. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.
no, it's brilliant! (Score:2)
2) Call up the people that do the [act/service/item/business] and set up some back room deals to overturn the law.
3) ???
4) Profit!
Lawmaking has become a very profitable occupation for our elected officials!
It's HR 4777. Maybe. (Score:3, Informative)
Second, the Congressional bill status system [loc.gov] says that today's action so far is "Introductory remarks on measure" in the House Judiciary Committee. It's not shown as passed by that Committee yet. Nor is it shown as being referred to the House Financial Services Committee at all.
Third, the bill is notable for what it doesn't have. It doesn't, for example, make credit card debts for gambling unenforceable, or prohibit banks from cooperating in money transfers for that purpose. That would actually work, but the banks wouldn't like it.
So much for personal freedom (Score:2)
I guess we'll have to stick to stock trading and gambling away our savings in the government's own lotteries.
Wheel of Fortune (Score:3, Insightful)
This doesn't change much... (Score:2)
So what most sites do is offer the ability to transfer money from an online holding/escrow service (think PayPal, Firepay, etc.). I don't think this bill would affect that much. They couldn't ban you from using these services because they serve an actual purpose. Could you imagine if people were no longer allowed to transfer money from their bank/credi
Sweet! Would that Include MMORPGs? (Score:3, Insightful)
For the most part I doubt it'll affect online poker players all that much. Most of them think that it's illegal now.
Japan solved this a long time ago. (Score:3, Informative)
Basically a form of gambling in Japan, where outright gambling is illegal. How do they skirt it?
One company allows you to buy balls. You give them money, they give you balls. Then you take the balls over to the pachinko parlor, where you can use the balls to play. When you win, you receive more balls back. They don't allow you to buy/sell the balls there. No money changes hands. When you're done, you go back to the ball-vendor, who "buys" your balls back.
The ball-vendor and the pachinko parlor are two completely seperate businesses, legally. That way, you're not *technically* gambling. Because the transactions are abstracted, it gets around the anti-gambling laws.
I could see something similar happening with online gambling. Get an account with some "chip" vendor, where you buy online "chips", which are strictly defined as being worthless (EULA type stuff). Then go to a (legally seperate) gambling site which just *happens* to allow you to use those chips, but doesn't directly allow you to buy-in or cash-out, so no money is actually changing hands. When you're done, you cash-out your account with the chip-vendor.
Re:Legistlators gambling with their jobs... (Score:2)
Re:What is the reasoning behind this law? (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:2)