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Privacy Communications

E-Tracking May Change the Way You Drive 528

Posted by ScuttleMonkey from the eye-in-the-sky dept.
frdmfghtr writes "ZDNet.com is running a story about a runaway idea of a tracking automobiles via GPS. Not to be confused with the Canadian project geared towards anti-speeding ideas, this one does in fact have the goal of tracking your vehicle. 'The U.S. Department of Transportation has been handing millions of dollars to state governments for GPS-tracking pilot projects designed to track vehicles wherever they go. So far, Washington state and Oregon have received fat federal checks to figure out how to levy these 'mileage-based road user fees.' However, the article goes on to talk about how there is no provision in place to prevent the uncontrolled surveillance of motorists without a court order."
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E-Tracking May Change the Way You Drive More

E-Tracking May Change the Way You Drive

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  • I'm not worried... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Propagandhi ( 570791 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @01:39AM (#14191558) Journal
    This just means my car will get a tin foil hat, too...

  • Sounds good (Score:2, Funny)

    by Brantano ( 908473 )
    This is a great idea, it would help with drunk drivers, crimes, and speeding. If you dont have anything to hide you really shouldnt be against it. This would definetly be great for the police who are trying to track a stolen car or track down someone who has just murdered someone. The possibilities are limitless.

    • Re:Sounds good (Score:5, Insightful)

      by miskatonic alumnus ( 668722 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @01:47AM (#14191598)
      Why stop there? I'd be willing to pay more taxes so that the government could install surveillance cameras in every room of every citizen's home. It would help with illegal drug usage, private gambling, prostitution, wife-beating, child molestation, and a whole host of other problems. If you don't have anything to hide you really shouldn't be against it. The possibilities are limitless.

      • Re:Sounds good (Score:4, Funny)

        by Maxo-Texas ( 864189 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @03:09AM (#14191894)
        Hell yes.
        I think there should be constant audio and video survellence both inside and outside your car (put a camera on each seat) as well as a monitor on your speedometer- if you happen to go 1mph over the speed limit .. or more than 10mph below it then automatically send you a small ticket. If you are talking on the cell phone while the car is in motion- send you a ticket. If you forget to buckle up before the car is put in gear send you a ticket. If you engage in carnal acts in the car- well that's basically a public place (I mean you are doing them on camera!) so you should probably be arrested- you know I'm sure there are still many states where oral sex is still considered sodomy and illegal (and if not now .. perhaps in a few years when the baby boomers start to get too old to enjoy sex).

        Why stop with the car? You should have total surveillance at work (I mean if you are doing your job, you have nothing to fear right?) as well as in the house in case you show terrorist tendencies they can backtrack all your contacts.

        In fact, every time you meet or talk to someone, it should send record that fact so they can backtrack all your contacts in case you later do something bad. You shouldn't have any problem with this unless you are doing something bad of course.

        Wow- we could eliminate all crime if we just put people into 10'x10' rooms under constant supervision and surveillance! It's a good idea since we know that people are going to eat and drink unhealthily and get sick on OUR DIME. Since we have to pay for their illness we should have complete control of them (and they of us!)

      • How the hell did this get modded Insightful?

        Here in America, we have something called the "burden of proof." Because of this principle, the government cannot restrict our rights until it has been proven that we have done something wrong. Because I have a Constitutional right to privacy, according to the United States Supreme Court, I will allow this sort of police-state only over my cold, dead body, and so should you.

        Unless, of course, the "utopiae" in fiction such as Brazil and 1984 appeal to you.

    • Re:Sounds good (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Propagandhi ( 570791 )
      The possibilities are limitless.

      They are, and that's what makes some of us nervous.

      If you dont have anything to hide you really shouldnt be against it.

      But most of us do have something to hide. As it stands now almost all of us are criminals in our own way (whether it's 'forgetting' to pay all of our taxes, smoking a little pot, or cruising at 5 over) and I, for one, don't mind that one bit.

      A government which observes its populace's every move is the ultimate nanny state... /.er's complain about the death o

    • Re:Sounds good (Score:3, Informative)

      by Vellmont ( 569020 )

      If you dont have anything to hide you really shouldnt be against it.


      Yup.. because the federal government *cough-McCarthyism-cough* has such a great *cough-Watergate-cough* history *cough-Guantanamo Bay-cough* of not abusing it's *cough-Japanese internment-cough* power..

    • Re:Sounds good (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Belseth ( 835595 )
      If you have nothing to hide how about the next logical step. You shouldn't have any problem with no court order reading of mail, e-mail and regular, phone taps and cameras in your house tied to the local police department. I mean it's not like you have anything to hide? It's called privacy and it's it's in the constitution, for the moment anyway. Unreasonable search and seizure means you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. I'm sick of everyone trying to give away my rights because some sleazy governme

  • I only got one thing to say about that... (Score:4, Informative)

    by SealBeater ( 143912 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @01:43AM (#14191571) Homepage
    Here [phrack.org]

    SealBeater

    • Every criminal is going to know how to jam it. And a smart criminal will figure out how to change it, and screw with the codes. That'd make it so easy to frame anyone you want. Cars with the devices disabled/reconfigured/removed will be available on the black market. I'm sure there are plenty of mechanics (not that I'm dissing the profession in any way) who'd prolly love to supplement their income with a few quick "house-call" repair jobs.
      • I'm sure there are plenty of mechanics (not that I'm dissing the profession in any way) who'd prolly love to supplement their income with a few quick "house-call" repair jobs.

        Dude, I'm hearing you. It's easy enough to find a mechanic who will "fix" the SMOG test. Imagine how easy it will be for criminals to circumvent this GPS tracking.

        The only people this will hurt is law-abiding citizens. Criminals will get around it.

  • Fees and Acceptance (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ZachPruckowski ( 918562 ) <zachary.pruckowski@gmail.com> on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @01:43AM (#14191573)
    mileage-based road user fees.

    Didn't we pay taxes to build the roads in the first place? Will these fees be accompanied by the reduction of taxes, since they are getting transportation funding elsewhere?

    This could be useful in figuring out which roads need expansion, and it could help with traffic routing. Imagine the effect on stoplights. They'll know which way has the biggest backup, etc. Of course, they could do most of this non-invasively.

    Of course, this'll be touted as an anti-theft thing or something, and everyone will jump all over it.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Didn't we pay taxes to build the roads in the first place?

      Yes we do. In fact, we already pay a pretty damn effective "milage based" / SUV tax. Its called a gas tax. The more you drive, the more you pay. The bigger the gas guzzler, the more you pay. The "milage based road user fee" is a warm and fuzzy way of saying "we're going to tax you fot the same thing twice."
    • Didn't we pay taxes to build the roads in the first place? Will these fees be accompanied by the reduction of taxes, since they are getting transportation funding elsewhere?

      A similar system has been proposed here in the UK - the government wanted to reduce fuel tax and use GPS tracking to charge per mile instead. Which is a plain stupid idea since fuel tax effectively charges per mile, plus:
      1. Discourages use of inefficient vehicles
      2. Doesn't require a vast tracking infrastructure costing vast amounts of m

    • Re:Fees and Acceptance (Score:3, Interesting)

      by dptalia ( 804960 )
      One problem with the current transportation taxes is that they're levied on gallons of gasoline. As more fuel efficent cars and hybrids take off, governments are losing their gas tax money. California is actually looking at having some sort of device put into cars that records how many miles you drive and then charges you for those miles every time you gas up... Since fuel efficient cars are "cheating" the government.

    • Re:Fees and Acceptance (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Why do people drawn a correlation between number of miles a person drives and the benefit they derive from the roads? There's a huge public interest in having all points connected by public roads, even if you never get in a car. Your food is shipped in from farms. Fedex/USPS/UPS bring you packages. Dodads are import/exported. Your municipality provides trash collection and other services (think emegency response). Rural children can be publically educated.

      All of these things provide economic and standard-of

  • Unauthorized tracking. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by baryon351 ( 626717 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @01:44AM (#14191578)
    > However, the article goes on to talk about how there is no provision in place to
    > prevent the uncontrolled surveillance of motorists without a court order.

    Cue the "well if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" government apologists.

  • I'll just hire Sony and... (Score:3, Funny)

    by surfdaddy ( 930829 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @01:47AM (#14191601)
    use their $sys$gpscloak.

  • Meter Reader (Score:2, Insightful)

    by TheStonepedo ( 885845 )
    Why not just check the odometer? Most if not all cars have odometers, and few people tamper with them. Most drivers could simply get their mileage checked whenever they have their vehicle inspected and/or renew the vehicle's license plates. Any taxes based on emissions could be assessed on fuel rather than based on mileage. I could drive my car 45 mph to my parents and take 20 hours and use far less gas than my friend who drives there at 80 mph in 12 hours.
  • I thought criminals we're supposed to be one revolution ahead of the law.

    Guess not :/

  • And who's going to make me? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pair-a-noyd ( 594371 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @01:54AM (#14191632)
    How do they propose to install one of these devices in any of my vehicles??
    There will be no such device ever installed in any vehicle I ever own.
    BTW, all of my vehicles are over 20 years old and long ago fully paid for in full.

    They'll have just as much luck installing one of these things in my vehicle as they will inserting a RFID chip under my skin.

  • Just adding fuel to the fire. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by nexcomlink ( 930801 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @01:55AM (#14191636) Homepage
    Not only is this completely unnecessary but let me get one thing straight. We do not have the right to abuse our power as citizens but the government has the power to go beyond it's boundaries and watch our every move? What is this bull. There is no point in monitoring someone's progress in car. In order to solve a problem you need to find the root cause of it. If you want us traveling at a slow 50-mph then there should be no cars in the united states which can go beyond that limit. So why do we still see GTO's, Porsche and other cars which are never designed to go just at 50MPH. Your wasting money on this crap. Also GPS cannot work where it does not get a signal. So in some states this would simply be useless. For then you come up with another thing out of your @@@ which is less reliable than the other. Good Job. Keep screwing us over.

  • Trust Issues (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rhyskegtapper ( 912684 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @01:57AM (#14191641)
    I'm sorry as great as this would be for road planning, we have horrible, congested roads where I live, and other important and completely valid projects. I just have trust issues with the local, federal, and state governments. I don't want to put more of my rights within their immediate control. Whether or not they actually act on their newfound abilities doesn't really matter. What matters to me is that if I had a GPS in my car and they were actively tracking me there is the POTENTIAL for abuse. As I said, I don't want to give a group of governments I do not trust the tools they need to infringe upon my rights down the road.

  • Refresh me (Score:2, Troll)

    by Council ( 514577 )
    I work on cryptography and information theory, I read Bruce Schneier, I have secure passwords and am suspicious of everything. I dabble in paranoia, read things like Free Culture and 2600, and am generally anti-The-Man.

    That said, sometimes I can't really remember why I care if someone is gathering information on me. Sure, if a company or government monitors my browsing habits or watches where I drive, they can make ads targeted or develop a psychological profile, but what's the real downside? Why should

    • Why should I care? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Sithech ( 858269 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @02:27AM (#14191754)
      Why should I care if they know what I buy or where I drive? Sure, if I were running for office, it might help with a smear campaign, but other than that, what does it matter?

      Maybe you don't have a reason to care, but lots and lots of your fellow citizens do have reasons.

      Anything like this would be likely to have security leaks. Probably big ones. So what if someone with $1000 in hand could find out where your car is right now? Let's say it's:

      1. Your ex-spouse, who has a grudge, a temper, and a .44 magnum.
      2. The leader of the gang whose homey was just sentenced for a robbery that you were a witness to.
      3. That person you met in the bar last week who just won't leave you alone.
      4. The burglary ring who's looking for people more than 500 miles from home so they can have a nice cup of tea and a sit down while they are stripping your digs.

      I'm sure everyone has other examples. And, by the way, not every person in law enforcement is unfailing honest and upright. Sometimes they fit right into scenarios like those above. Or worse. Just Google ' "Ramparts Division" Scandal' for an example.

    • Why universal surveilance is bad (Score:5, Insightful)

      by j1m+5n0w ( 749199 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @02:29AM (#14191762) Homepage Journal
      Seriously, remind me why I need privacy. I forget sometimes.
      Well, even if you aren't concerned about someone blackmailing you using data gathered from in part from vehicle GPS data, your life is affected by many other people (politicians, businessmen, etc..) who could be blackmailed in ways that may be (perhaps indirectly) detrimental to yourself or society in general.

    • Re:Refresh me (Score:5, Insightful)

      by laughingcoyote ( 762272 ) <barghesthowl@eUM ... .com minus punct> on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @02:37AM (#14191789) Journal

      Please post your full, real name, home, school/work, and cell phone numbers, unaltered email addresses, home and school/work address, job title, vehicle descriptions and license plate numbers, and a link to a recent photograph of yourself.

      Or, admit that privacy has its benefits after all.

    • Re:Refresh me (Score:3, Insightful)

      by FireFury03 ( 653718 )
      Why should I care if they know what I buy or where I drive?

      What happens if the tracking shows that you were near a terrorist bombing... and the tracking also shows you were at the garden centre buying fertiliser. Maybe you weren't guilty, but with enough tracking there may well be plenty of "evidence" that makes you look guilty. And since the law enforcement authorities seem to be able to get away with *anything* at the mention of the "T" word you could well find yourself banged up in jail even though th
  • Then you need to get out more!

  • Read at "1" -- it is alarming! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by FFFish ( 7567 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @02:15AM (#14191710) Homepage
    I just read with comments set to level 1. It was alarming: many of the people in the low-ranked comments are in support of this idea. These are your fellow citizens!

    If there is some sort of plan to turn Americans into a passive, watched population, it's working. People actively want to be spied upon. It makes them feel "safer."

    If you, like me, think this is a step toward the loss of our valuable ideals of freedom, you sure as hell had better start speaking up. These gullible, frightened people are driving our government. We need to stop them and the only way to accomplish that is to become more politically active.
    • If there is some sort of plan to turn Americans into a passive, watched population, it's working. People actively want to be spied upon. It makes them feel "safer."

      Oh, the irony, huh? People don't want to be babysat by the big bad government, they want "freedom" and "non-interference," but what is this? Really?

    • Welcome to the future. I see this type of thinking in Europe all the time.

      Actually, there they want to control what you think too (limited freedom of speech IIRC disguised as other laws) so it's not so bad here yet where they merely try to but can't.

      What many people don't realize is that books like George Orwelle's "1984" and Huxley's "Brave New World" are slight rip-offs from Yevgeny Zamyatin 1920's "We" who was a communist but was disillusioned and had a falling out with the leaders (Lenin) and in turn w
  • Other governments around the world have been looking at this for some time now, I know here in the UK we drivers live in fear of Her Majesties Government trying to introduce such a scheme. Further details of the UK progress of this system can be found in the BBC news article linked to below...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/3903347.stm [bbc.co.uk]

  • 'mileage-based road user fees' aare already in place. They're the 40-60 cents per gallon tax for fuel. The more you use, the more you pay. There are also toll roads which continue to collect tolls well after the project has been completely reimbursed. This is just more bs tax.

  • gas taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Mike_K ( 138858 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @02:17AM (#14191726)
    Aren't gas taxes basically a pay-per-use fee for motorists for infrustructure building?

    Gas taxes have the advantage of being anonymous, plus they promote lower gas-usage vehicles. The only reason I can think that anybody would consider using GPS in favor of simply taxing fuel is that they want to LOWER the taxes on gas, thus prices at the pump. You lower gas prices, and you're GUARANTEED to get re-elected.

    m

  • Alternate Fuel Vehicles are Driving This (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MDMurphy ( 208495 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @02:24AM (#14191746)
    The initial impetus for this was alternate fuel vehicles. An electric car you plug in at home now pays no road taxes like a car at the pump. The same goes for propane or natural gas vehicles you fill at home. As vehicles go away from filling at a gas pump that collects taxes per gallon another model is needed.

    Coming up with the mechanism for billing by gallon, watt, therm, amp, whatever and separating what you use in your car vs what you use in the oven isn't practical. So to assign the taxes based on use mileage ( or even "hours on the road" ) needs to be figured out. It's got to happen.

    Even with an odometer, a mechanism taxing for mileage by state would be needed. Especially with the smaller states in the northeast where people live in one, work in one and transit a third to get to work each day. As long as you're figuring out which state you might as well figure out things like toll roads, bridges and time of day congestion usage.

    It's going to be GPS. Anything else requires a more elaborate infrastructure.

    What it doesn't have to be is privacy-hostile. Rather than uploading your entire driving history, the "road tax road map" could be uploaded into the unit in the vehicle. With the schedule of tariffs for your particular vehicle onboard, all you really need to reveal is the taxes owed. No need to reveal whether you went 1000 miles in a high-congestion area or 10,000 miles of night time interstate driving, just that you owe $5.95 in taxes. ( Expect this to be used as a by-use insurance tool as well)

    There has to be a way to have drivers pay for use of the roads. Ideally we won't be limited to gasoline engines, so charging $ per gallon won't always work. An alternative is needed. Arguing about privacy impacts of a GPS receiver in the car is fine, and appropriate. But better would be to come up with a viable alternative to bill users for road use that is independent from fuel delivery.

    • Re:Alternate Fuel Vehicles are Driving This (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Jah-Wren Ryel ( 80510 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @03:35AM (#14191969)
      It's going to be GPS. Anything else requires a more elaborate infrastructure.

      That's only true if you believe that the government must precisely measure and collect road taxes. If we all take a step back and consider just how fucked up government budgets are, it should become obvious that accurate measurement of road use is not going to benefit the state because any level of accuracy will be quickly lost in the chaotic noise of the overall system of government budgeting.

      So, instad of coming up with some super-elaborate, fascist's wet-dream to measure and collect the exact road use tax down to the penny, how about we just stick to basic measurements:

      1) The odometer
      Pay a road use tax that is based on odometer readings when you get your car's yearly inspection or registration renewal.

      2) Average traffic flow between states
      Bordering states can fairly easily estimate average daily traffic flow across their boarders, they use that information to negotiate sharing ratios between states for the collected road-use taxes.

      There - problem solved in a fashion that is more than "good enough" with minimal cost overhead and minimal loss of privacy.

      If it turns out that a state is not getting enough compensation to cover road upkeep, then they can raise the road use tax rate and possibly renegotiate the sharing ratios with their neighbors until their road maintenace costs are appropriately covered.

      Only the big car/people tracking corps will lose out because there will be no reason to pay them (waste) barrels of federal pork to implement a piece of big brother. Oh, and the GPS receiver makers will also lose out on an otherwise captive market (you know their CEO's are spooging over the thought of forcing all cars to incorporate at least one GPS receiver).
  • In the field of computing, this would be called spyware. Do you want spyware?

  • TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars tracking ALREADY! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @03:21AM (#14191922)
    TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders ALREADY!

    Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.

    A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFID chips embedded in the tire).

    Yup. My brother works on them (since 2001).

    The us gov T.R.E.A.D. act (which passed) made it illegal to sell new passenger cars lacking untamperable RFID in the tires allowing efficient scanning of moving cars.

    Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.

    Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car.

    Taggant chemical research papers :
    http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/ ~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801705.PDF [princeton.edu]
    (remove spaces in url from slashcode if needed)

    I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].

    It is for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.

    Photos of tracking chips before molded deep into tires! :
    http://www.sokymat.com/index.php?id=94 [sokymat.com]

    PLEASE LOOK AT THAT LINK : Its the same shocking tire material I have been trying to tell people about since the spring of 2001 on slashdot.

    a controversial dead older link was at http://www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html [sokymat.com]

    (slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertes usually into any of my urls to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)

    You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.

    Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.

    The photo of the secret high speed overpass prototype WAS at :
    http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html [tadiran-telematics.com] ...but the shocking link finally died in July 2004 and the new location 2005 does not have a photo of a RFID bridge underpass RFID database collector. But this 20005 link below does discuss their toll booth RFID tracking uses...

    http://www.telematics-wireless.com/site/index1.php [telematics-wireless.com]
    • This is way too over-the-top for me to believe this guy is anything other than a troll, read the end: "
      4 out of 5 times this post was rapidly modded to -1 by fbi shills angry at the epson ink info and tire info and explosives taggant info and only one time did it survive the FBI negative modding Slashdot accounts and remain at +2 by the next day. If you like to read RFID facts like this that I BROKE FIRST IN SPRING OF 2001 here on Slashdot, then keep this vital post from getting modded to -1 by idiots that

    • TREAD act (Score:3, Informative)

      by YesIAmAScript ( 886271 )
      http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/Cfc_title49/publ41 4 .106.pdf [dot.gov]

      Go ahead and search it. It requires better labelling, but no RFID chips. There doesn't even seem to be anything in there to even let you identify a particular tire, just perhaps model and manufacture date or something.

      Conspiracy theorists (and trolls) never check their sources too carefully, it just dampenens the ranting.

  • Has everyone gone bonkers? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Xyleene ( 874520 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @04:44AM (#14192160)

    I value my privacy. Not because I break the law and not because I don't think some supreme body should not be watching me but because a Government that is made up of regular people just like you and I shouldn't have that kind of over reaching power over us. Has everyone forgotten this???? I read the posts here and am scared for the first time about the views of many Slashdotters. Never thought I'd see the day.

    A government is for the people by the people. Do you remember the intrusiveness of the Nazi regime and the USSR??? This is part of what we detest when looking back at these societies. Sloly but surely even the Land of the free is coming around.... Give the people the illusion of choice and they will follow like sheep I guess

    To address the other issue raised here there are legitimate concerns about highway taxes but there acceptable solutions outlined in other posts that don't involve tracking every citizen that drives a car.

  • is it time yet? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by samantha ( 68231 ) * on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @06:45AM (#14192490) Homepage
    I keep hearing that it isn't time to shoot the bastards.. yet. When is it time? Soon no real resistance will be possible as you and your fellows are under surveillance 24/7 and everything you do and say is monitored. You think you have nothing to hide? How about from Pat Robertson and the religious right? How about from the war on some drugs? How about those who are too interested in telling you what you can read or view or who you can have sex with and in what manner? How about from the thought police comming soon? How about from those who want to limit what you can do even on your own computer and over the net to what locks you in to their meager offerings and makes you there cash cow in perpetuity? Such means increase the power of those who would more fully control you. As long as those in power are no fully committed to freedom and have their own agendas we are not safe when applications like this literally come down the pike.

    RAISE HELL about this folks! Do it while some of our public "servants" will still deign to listen. All too soon they won't have to.

  • When in the course of human events ... (Score:3, Informative)

    by joelsanda ( 619660 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @08:18AM (#14192736) Homepage

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

  • Sweet! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Quixadhal ( 45024 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @08:30AM (#14192778) Homepage Journal
    I'm gonna love seeing my insurance rates go down when they see that my car spends 99.99% of its time sitting in my garage. Now, all I need to do is rig up an AC adapter to power that new GPS chip I yanked from the car and the savings will start rolling in!

  • Have you people read the Bill of Rights? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jerk City Troll ( 661616 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @08:44AM (#14192835) Homepage

    This thread sees a surprising number of people supporting this idea using the “if you’ve got nothing to hide, why should you worry?” fallacy. There have been weak arguments on both sides, but I would like to nail this one shut by reminding everyone that tracking citizens is distinctly unconstitutional. Maybe some of you have read the following provision in United States law.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    (Emphasis mine.) Sure, I know this is a little quaint, but hear me out. This law, known as the First Amendment, among other things, protects the right (note it does not grant a right—rights cannot be granted, only protected) of citizens to associate freely [cornell.edu] and anonymously. The reason it protects this right is so members of the population can either meet up for Thursday night poker, or overthrow the government. Shock and dismay I’m sure, but that is why we have it (and the Second Amendment). Oppressive governments, as a first order of business in controlling a population, restrict the ability of people to assemble. The First Amendment restricts our government’s ability to do that. Of course, it applies directly to protecting to a much simpler, less severe act of “petition the government for a redress of grievances”. Tracking people with GPS everywhere they go will have a chilling effect on the desire to exercise this right, regardless of the intent. Like everything else, people can gather to do something positive or commit a crime. Take guns for example. Not intrinsically bad, but used both for sharp-shooting sports and killing innocent people. Should they be taken away? Absolutely not and the same applies with our freedom to go wherever we choose without being monitored. It is astonishing to me that we live in an age where people are willing to allow the government to track and monitor their every move. These people should be utterly ashamed of themselves because this a freedom that has been won by great sacrifice and is one of the founding principles of the United States. Too bad we really don’t teach this material [teachfirstamendment.org] in schools anymore.

  • Some thoughts (Score:3, Insightful)

    by matth ( 22742 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @08:49AM (#14192857) Homepage
    One.. I already have this..
    I'm an amateur radio operator and I have a GPS and packet transmitter in my car. If you pull up my website (not the one linked above) you can see where my car is currently, how fast I'm going, and where I've been in the last 7 days!.... oooooooooooooooo

    Now.. this is a little different... and a few things come to mind... am I going to have to take my car to some place to have this installed? What happens if it breaks? Do I have to spend my time getting it fixed? How do I know if it broke?

    From the article:
      Some GPS trackers constantly communicate their location back to the state DMV, while others record the location information for later retrieval. (In the Oregon pilot project, it's beamed out wirelessly when the driver pulls into a gas station.)

    On the Oregon one... why can't I just fill up my jug of gas, while the car is parked in a parking spot and then transfer it over to the car, thereby avoiding the uplink. If it's constant communication seems like a low level RF signal by the car could block it out.

  • Oil companies and automakers love this! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by aquarian ( 134728 ) on Tuesday December 06, 2005 @05:58PM (#14197965)
    Fuel taxes are almost perfect as road user fees. Larger, heavier vehicles tear up the roads more, and also happen to use more fuel. If pollution is considered, the model holds up there well too.

    High fuel taxes encourage people to use less fuel, and to buy more fuel efficient vehicles -- perhaps from other than (SUV heavy) US carmakers. But if road use were taxed by mileage, fuel use would be less affected, as would vehicle choice WRT fuel efficiency. SUV makers and oil companies would benefit. So they love this. And yes, it's partly their lobbyists and think tanks who are behind it.

    Also, who do you think would be making the GPS units? Delco, perhaps? Hey, if you can't compete for consumer business effectively, go for the gov't contracts...

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